Alicization Upper Tier to Relativistic

[Leafbladie]

No, I'm saying Fanatio has no clue how exactly a Memory Release works.

She is the second ranking IK. It's just that while IKs are the top of the chain, they still do not know much about the world. That's their point.

You’re really not following through on your own logic. If we take your theory that Fanatio’s sword fires condensed Luminous Element, instead of the light of Solus that she keeps claiming multiple times. That would logically mean she is unable to identify and recognize Luminous Element.

Do you think this is the case? Yes or no?

 

[Kaantantr]

I think the implication is very clear, yes. And I never said anything against that. Of course she cannot make the distinction, visibly they are pretty much the same. That's why its description comes down as a "beam of light". The difference is how it functions. As was the case since multiple replies now. How many times does it need to be repeated until you start understanding that you should check the previous threads on this exact topic?

 

[Leafbladie]

visibly they are pretty much the same

What’s the same visually? Her attack and Solus’s light? Luminous element and Solus’s light? Her attack and Luminous Element? Please clarify.

 

[Kaantantr]

A very concentrated barrage of Luminous Element projectiles look like a beam of light. You know what else looks like a beam of light? An actual beam of light.

 

[Leafbladie]

A very concentrated barrage of Luminous Element projectiles look like a beam of light. You know what else looks like a beam of light? An actual beam of light.

Looks like a light beam, but Fanatio is still able to identify Alice’s attack as Luminous Element, whereas she doesn’t for her own? Weird, it’s almost like people can tell the difference despite the visual similarities, and Fanatio as someone who has seens countless battles would know how to identify Luminous Element.

 

[Kaantantr]

Looks like a light beam, but Fanatio is still able to identify Alice’s attack as Luminous Element

At this point, I have to assume you are trolling. You cannot be lost on the context so much to not realize that their entire plan that they discussed with Alice was that Alice should "Collect the Spatial Resources created by the loss of Life down in the battlefield and unleash it all on those below".

Of course Fanatio knew Alice's attack was an actual Luminous blast. That was literally the plan they established.

 

[Leafbladie]

At this point, I have to assume you are trolling. You cannot be lost on the context so much to not realize that their entire plan that they discussed with Alice was that Alice should "Collect the Spatial Resources created by the loss of Life down in the battlefield and unleash it all on those below".

Of course Fanatio knew Alice's attack was an actual Luminous blast. That was literally the plan they established.

And you must be ignoring the obvious. If she knows what a luminous blast is, and doesn't identify her own attack as one, even to herself, then she lacks the most basic sacred art identifying abilities. It'd be like identifying that the ocean is filled with water, but being unable to tell a pool is also filled with water. So again, what you are saying logically implies that Fanatio willingly chooses to be ignorant. Because she continues to identify her attack as the light of Solus, despite knowing what a Luminous Blast is, and being able to identify Sacred Arts usage.

Like, Alice got the idea from Kirito's fight with Fanatio, which Fanatio would have been the one to relay this information considering that Kirito is comatose and Eugeo was dead. So she was able to identify the elements Kirito used to make his makeshift mirror in less than a second. But you're saying she can't identify the own element that makes her own attack, despite it only being one element.

Edit: As an aside, the fact that she's willing to accept that she is not a knight sent from the heavens when presented with contradictory information, but is unable to recognize something minor as the true nature of her own attack when presented with contradictory evidence (according to your headcanon) is honestly quite the reach.

 

[Kaantantr]

You are completely missing out on the fact that Memory Abilities are even more mysterious to the Integrity Knights than most Sacred Arts. Quinella basically gives them a weapon, tell what it does in general terms, and sends them off. They do not know how exactly they work. They never needed to. It's not what they were ever supposed to do. When you drive a car, you do not need to know what goes on underneath the hood and chassis. You need to know "gas make me go brrrr, brake makes me go less brrrr, I cannot forget about the clutch if I drive stick and the circle thing makes me turn".

And in fact, it is better if they don't. The power of the ability is in direct correlation with their belief of the ability. The more mystified the description is, colored with lore and legends, the more powerful it will be, due to being directly tied to their incarnation.

You would be surprised how little the Integrity Knights know about things that seem vital. Unless you read anything more in the series other than snippets of sentences.

But you really are over convoluting the situation anyways. Visual Descriptions are not Accurate Descriptions of somethings true nature. Something that has been repeated to you countless times in this thread, and was literally the core point of the previous thread on this topic that you still have not read.

But hey, I don't expect you to at this point. The shallow things you keep saying that just keeps opening up pandoras box that keep surprising and confusing you every single time... I don't think you care about any of it. You just want it to be "light" and jerk up the characters and abilities. You know... Otherwise you would have done better research than copy pasting a single paragraph to DeepL and change the Kanji used in wrong ways because all you did with the series was screenshot 3-4 paragraphs, rather than having any awareness about the 10-volumes-long saga that is Alicization.

 

[Leafbladie]

I want it to be light, because its light.

Anyway, I have to head off to work, so I'll respond later. But if you don't mind telling me, what's your head canon for why Kirito's mirror turns orange before breaking while Alice's turns red?

 

[DaReaperMan]

I disagree with this CRT because it's been discussed in length with a lot of mod input before. I'd know. I was there.

 

[Kaantantr]

what's your head canon for why Kirito's mirror turns orange before breaking while Alice's turns red

Despite the fact that you are citing Anime again, I will tell you why the moment you tell me why Eugeo's eyes turned blue midway through the actual source material, the SAO Light Novels.

Either way, all you are doing right now is strawmanning completely unrelated things based on the Anime depiction.

I'll add this

I want it to be light, because its light.

This is exactly the problem. You want it to be light, because you believe it to be light. And you do not look at the situation objectively. You just look at a single sentence description, all other things be damned, and try to cherry pick statements that may help you while ignoring everything else.

That is why I had to explain at least half a dozen different aspects of Underworld to you. Because you kept trying to cherry pick things on different fields and had no clue how all of it comes together and works in tandem.

You cannot pick a single sentence, and try to make everything fit into that description. That is backwards thinking. You need to look with a wide perspective and deduce what that thing is based on all the information presented. Which was why I kept telling you to read previous discussions on the topic where this was done extensively.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Lasers/light beams are only accepted as real if they meet, at a minimum, a few of these criteria:

The beam refracts in a new material, such as a liquid or...
The beam diffuses in a reasonably realistic way or reflects off a material that it can be expected to, such as a non-magical mirror.
The beam is called lightspeed by reliable sources.
It is stated to be composed/consisting of photons or light itself, again by a reliable source.
It has its origin at a realistic source of light, such as a camera.

Let's go through them all for my knowledge.

I do not recall any refracting ever happening, Not check
The beam did reflect, check.
Never happened, Not check
Luminous Element and I'm pretty sure that was gone over a ton in the last thread, not check.
Not check.

This has at most two out of 5 criteria and only one is a strong criteria, just being called light isn't enough.

 

[Kaantantr]

The beam did reflect, check.

Just to add, I'm pretty sure it came down to "bouncing back" as well, mainly due to how it ended up interacting with the mirror. They clashed for a split second and stood hanging. Thus an instantaneous reflection was not the case and it ended up being categorized a bounce.

What Reki said is relevant, though it is further proof that it wasn't light. It is a unique interaction to Underworld between whatever the attack was and the mirror object. But we know actual light reacts normally to mirrors. So whatever the attack was, regardless of what it really is, we can with absolute certainty say "it was not light".

 

[Leafbladie]

Despite the fact that you are citing Anime again

Got a break at work, so real quick, you willing to bet on that claim I'm citing anime? I'll drop this whole thread right now, admit you're right about everything, and never bring this up again if you're right. You got nothing to lose but your credibility, and showing how arrogant you are in assuming you know others' actions better than they know themselves.

 

[Kaantantr]

You literally used Anime numerous times throughout this thread and lied about having a proper translation regarding a tweet. I have 0 reasons to have good faith belief regarding what you do here.

And you still continue here, rather than using your break to read up on previously established topics, just in an attempt to pick a fight here.

 

[Leafbladie]

just in an attempt to pick a fight here.

You have a lot of nerve saying this considering all the inflammatory comments you've made in my direction. I've had this argument about relativistic SAO with people who disagree with my interpretation like DMUA with far more civility than this. Anyway, break's over, are you taking the bet, or are you going to retract your statement?

 

[DaReaperMan]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/sword-art-online-speed-downgrade.117055/

All of your points have been extensively addressed here. Plus the fact that I've already told you the SOL standards and applied the "light" to it, you cant get SOL from just one criteria, so this upgrade really doesn't have any platform to stand on.

Also stop taking shots at eachother, it gets nothing done

 

[Kaantantr]

You have a lot of nerve saying this considering all the inflammatory comments you've made in my direction. I've had this argument about relativistic SAO with people who disagree with my interpretation like DMUA with far more civility than this. Anyway, break's over, are you taking the bet, or are you going to retract your statement?

If you presented an actual case, I would have given it the respect it would have deserved. All I saw was yet another person who refused to read prior discussions on the topic while re-iterating the exact same misled interpretations by cherry picking sentences.

At that point, I had not assumed anything. I literally said

The first recommendation I generally have towards people is that "Please stop citing a single cherry picked paragraph for your claims". At best, you are misinforming yourself and other people because you have not done due diligence, at worst, you are purposefully attempting to misguide people into jacking up your favorite characters.

And I time and time again re-iterated that you should read prior discussions in order to not re-tread the exact same things. The more you ignored that suggestion, which honestly should have been the first thing you did as a basic standard process, the more I adjusted my language because clearly, you had zero respect towards anyone who extensively went over this exact topic for days upon days. But then you started taking offense when I pointed out your lack of awareness, thinking I was trying to insult you or something.

Telling you you are wrong on fundamental things is not an inflammatory statement. Recommending you educate yourself about the fundamentals of a series rather than using cherry picked statements is not an inflammatory statement. It is merely an observation and recommendation towards a confused member. When it gets funny is when said member either lies or lacks the comprehension ability, as you kept saying you were "educated" as well as had "read the previous threads", both of which turned out to be incorrect, as you continued to showcase your lack of understanding regarding the basics, and kept saying the exact same things that were disproven in the previous thread.

With that at hand, everything else is just a different wording of "You have no idea what you are talking about, please read up on previous material". Which honestly, is not inflammatory at all, unless you have a personal complex about getting your mistakes pointed out.

I am happy when my mistakes are pointed out. It only leads to more accurate knowledge after all and that is what I care about. But to be able to point out mistakes, you need to have a certain level of understanding of the material, which you have not shown to possess based on your claims.

So one last time. Stop getting stuck up on the fact that you don't have a sound argument and read prior material to better educate yourself on the topic.

 

[Leafbladie]

Last break before I get home, and I‘ll give a more in depth response.

You literally lied about my actions and said I was “citing anime again”. I asked you to take it back, because I got real sick of you assuming my actions, and lying about them. Now are you going to take back that accusation, or are you incapable of having a respectable conversation?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Watch. Calm.

 

[Kaantantr]

As I have stated, I have not lied. I made an assumption based on your previous track record of citing Anime or lying about translations or general lack of understanding. I will not be taking anything back as you have spent all the potential good faith belief one could have, as I spent hours upon hours trying to explain you the basics, despite it being your responsibility to read through prior things.

Again, chill. You are just adding terrible to your perception.

 

[Leafbladie]

I will not be taking anything back... Again, chill.

I'm actually incapable of doing that. I can't hold conversation with people who make false assumptions about me and refuse to retract them. When I try I end up engaging in self destructive behavior, every time. Call me a baby, or triggered, or whatever I guess, but that's the truth. That you did it about something so minor and inconsequential as me asking why you thought the mirrors turned different colors actually makes it even worse.

 

[RitsuØ1]

Lasers/light beams are only accepted as real if they meet, at a minimum, a few of these criteria:

The beam refracts in a new material, such as a liquid or...
The beam diffuses in a reasonably realistic way or reflects off a material that it can be expected to, such as a non-magical mirror.
The beam is called lightspeed by reliable sources.
It is stated to be composed/consisting of photons or light itself, again by a reliable source.
It has its origin at a realistic source of light, such as a camera.

Let's go through them all for my knowledge.

I do not recall any refracting ever happening, Not check
The beam did reflect, check.
Never happened, Not check
Luminous Element and I'm pretty sure that was gone over a ton in the last thread, not check.
Not check.

This has at most two out of 5 criteria and only one is a strong criteria, just being called light isn't enough.

The laser itself meets conditions 4 and 5 for lasers. Fanatio states it's the light of Solus itself that composes the laser. It was also crafted from mirrors that reflected the light of Solus, so the origin of the light is Solus (Underworld's version of the Sun), again, a realistic source for light. It doesn't show any of the features that would disqualify it from being a laser (such as tangibility or non-straight lines).

 

[Kaantantr]

Problem once again completely devoid of context, just quoting things without even reading them... Because actually reading and having context would go against his dreams of upping Kirito's skills no matter the cost.

 

[CurrySenpai]

Bump

 

[Leafbladie]

Bump

I'll be making a post this week hopefully. I have to write-up quite a bit at once, and unfortunately I need to work 6 days/week for the next 3 weeks due to my boss's surgery so don't really have much time.

 

[CurrySenpai]

I'll be making a post this week hopefully. I have to write-up quite a bit at once, and unfortunately I need to work 6 days/week for the next 3 weeks due to my boss's surgery so don't really have much time.

It's fine take your time. I was just bumping because I felt like more was gonna be said.

 

[Vietthai96]

I remember it was discussed many time over before, and no it not met any requirement to be actual light

 

[Leafbladie]

I’m starting over. I will not be directly speaking to Kaantantr for the remainder of this thread since they refused to apologize. And will just focus on debunking his posts that tried to debunk light speed attacks existing within Underworld. Note, I know this will not emphatically “prove” the attacks are lightspeed, but I want to get rid of these blatant downplays, because of how much they just shot down conversation.

So let’s start with a simple one by Kaantantr:

It's a great excerpt particularly because it even states the attack actually collided with the mirror and stayed in a clash for 0.1 seconds.

Now, Kaantantr thankfully does recognize that the narrator is a 3rd person subjective narrator (i.e. it is narrated by someone besides the character which we follow through the story, but the narration is influenced by their perception of the world). However, they seem to fail to recognize that this could apply to the .1 second claim by Eugeo.

Time is relative, or, at least our perception of it is. When we are confronted with stressful or dangerous situations, the result is often an overestimation of the time elapsed.

So while Eugeo might have perceived this ““““clash”””” (I’ll elaborate on this later) as taking .1 seconds, it could easily have taken place over a shorter period of time, as this value could just be an inflated number due to the adrenaline coursing through Eugeo’s body.

Again, the narration is tainted by his perception, so we can’t take such measurements as fact, if there are biasing factors, unless we have reason to believe Eugeo would not be influenced by them.

Now, as for why I put “clash” in quotations, it's because of Kaantantr’s complete misrepresentation of the text through this word.

Eugeo only states that the mirror “held up for a tenth of a second” (again I believe this to be a gross overestimate, and I will address it more later). The mirror has no description of being pushed back, or pushing back against the attack, why would it? As Kaantantr and Eugeo both state, the attack has no mass. Its interactions before this were limited to just piercing through everything it hit, only stopping once it either ran out of energy or hit the marble. F=m*a, since there’s 0 mass, there’s 0 force to push the mirror back. Also, as an aside, when the light pierced Kirito, it actually wasn’t what caused him to be pushed back. Rather, it was the shock of his pierced stomach that threw him off course. The reason the mirror is ultimately destroyed is because the intense heat caused it to melt into a liquefied mixture of glass and metal.

If a clash occurred, which again, make no sense, it would be either one of two equally two stupid scenarios:

1. The tip of the beam comes into contact with the mirror, and at that moment the velocity of the ENTIRE projectile instantly becomes 0. Allowing it to completely retain its shape, for one-tenth of a second. Then, when the mirror melted, the beam suddenly splits into two separate beams, with 20% bouncing back at Fanatio, while the other 80% proceeds towards Kirito.

2. The tip of the beam comes into contact with the mirror, the tip’s velocity reaches 0, while the rest of the beam would be forced to splash around the tip that came in contact with the mirror, and then disperse along the mirror’s surface (Kaantantr says it’s not made of photons, so it shouldn’t be able to occupy the same space or condense down into a single point like a photon is able to, and if it could, one would be able to generate multiple elements upon a single fingers). After 1/10th of a second, the mirror melts, and the beam somehow reforms back into two separate beams, with 80% proceeding toward Kirito, and 20% bouncing back at Fanatio.

I don’t think I should have to explain why either of these interpretations are completely silly. And so now I will offer a quite simple, and easy to follow explanation of what occurred.

The tip of the spear hits the mirror. In the time between that moment and the first 20% of the beam has come into contact of the mirror, the mirror turns orange due to its intense heat, and then melts. The mirror, having melted, and thus no longer existing in the world, means the remaining 80% of the beam is allowed to proceed towards Kirito along its initial path. With the first 20% of the beam having already been reflected back at Fanatio already.

Now, I feel like someone is going to say, “wait, the 20% bouncing back is stated after the 80% that hits Kirito, so it should occur after that”.

And to them I would say you need to work on your writing skills. Describing things in perfect chronological can sometimes kill the pacing and tension of a scene. The main conflict was beam vs the mirror, and whether or not it would be able to stand up to the beam’s might to protect Kirito. The mention of any of it reflecting back before that would kill the tension and add redundant details where they were not necessary, because it will be mentioned again when it is relevant. To give a shocking reveal that not only has Kirito protected himself, but initiated a counterattack.

The 80% of the beam is also going to have to be dodged by Kirito before Fanatio has to dodge the other 20%, so that would be another sudden shift in perspective if the events were to be narrated in perfect chronological order. Multiple actions shifts within a single fight beat completely grinds pacing to a halt, and are annoying to follow, so it's for the best it's written this way. Writing is hard, it’s more than a perfect chronological narration of beats within a story.

And as a bonus, here's a calc showing that if Eugeo's claim of this event taking one-tenth of a second being completely literal, the beam of light would at max probably be traveling 20 m/s (45 mph). Assuming the beam of light was 10 meters long, which is a pretty gross overestimate, seeing as Eugeo probably would have mentioned its length if it was rather substantial.

 

[Vietthai96]

I still failed to see any claim to be actual light here. Most of these things are just your own interpretation and assumption

 

[Leafbladie]

I still failed to see any claim to be actual light here. Most of these things are just your own interpretation and assumption

And will just focus on debunking his posts that tried to debunk light speed attacks existing within Underworld. Note, I know this will not emphatically “prove” the attacks are lightspeed, but I want to get rid of these blatant downplays, because of how much they just shot down conversation.

Literally within the first paragraph. And also, it's Kaantantr's claim that it clashed with the mirror. Despite no evidence of this. Every other instance of Luminous Element and light colliding with mirrors mentions it reflecting off (unless the mirror suddenly stops existing due to melting). I don't see why this would be any different. Like, how else would you explain this?

 

[Vietthai96]

Literally within the first paragraph. And also, it's Kaantantr's claim that it clashed with the mirror. Despite no evidence of this. Every other instance of Luminous Element and light colliding with mirrors mentions it reflecting off (unless the mirror suddenly stops existing due to melting). I don't see why this would be any different. Like, how else would you explain this?

Literally, nothing, all your claim above was still your personal belief on the feat, no paragraph said it reflect of, can you show exactly where it is again??

 

[Leafbladie]

“The other 20% of the beam reflected by the mirror”

So 80% proceeded to Kirito, unimpeded, while the first 20% had already been reflected by the mirror. Unless you think the mirror reflected 20% back after it melted somehow.

 

[Vietthai96]

“The other 20% of the beam reflected by the mirror”

So 80% proceeded to Kirito, unimpeded, while the first 20% had already been reflected by the mirror. Unless you think the mirror reflected 20% back after it melted somehow.

And the next line say it bounced back to Fanatio's helmet, light doesn't bounced

 

[Leafbladie]

And the next line say it bounced back to Fanatio's helmet, light doesn't bounced

Obvious synonyms is obvious. Besides, an “attack bouncing” is more a reference to sending an attack back to sender or deflecting it, than the mechanics by which the attack is necessarily returned. Reflecting attacks would be the mechanics through which the light beam “bounced sharply back at Fanatio’s helmet.”

 

[Vietthai96]

Reflect, by all mean =/= bounce down to their core

 

[DaReaperMan]

Like, it's two things moving, but the difference in the movement is great, and DEFINITELY not what light does.

 

[Leafbladie]

Reflect, by all mean =/= bounce down to their core

Then why are you giving more weight to the word "bounce" than "reflect"? Considering "[t]je other 20 percent of the beam reflected by the mirror..." describes what interaction the mirror had with the beam of light, while "bounced sharply back at Fanatio's helmet" describes its change in trajectory.

Like, it's two things moving, but the difference in the movement is great, and DEFINITELY not what light does.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, or what it's in reference to.

 

[Leafbladie]

Here, I'll elaborate on this as well since you seem so hung up about it. Colloquially, all reflections are bounces, but not all bounces are reflections. For instance:

"The laser reflected back from the mirror."

"The ball bounced off the floor."

These both are correct descriptions of interactions between their respective objects. Now, consider the sentence:

"The laser bounced back from the mirror."

While a laser does not literally bounce, you can still understand from the context what the interaction between the mirror and the laser is, that of reflection. And informal language is pretty common in fictional writing, because you want synonyms so your dialogue and narration isn't repetitive.

Now finally, consider:

"The ball reflected off the floor."

This sounds wrong. You might understand what was trying to be communicated, but it doesn't sound right. Because while "bounce" can be used as a substitute for reflection in informal language, the opposite does not hold true. And this is because the word "reflect" has a more specific connotation to it than "bounce"

So, since both "reflect" and "bounce" are used, reflection as the more specific description of the interaction should take precedence, unless there is reason to believe that the interaction was actually a bounce. But that seems unlikely, because there is no mention of some elastic property of the laser or mirror.

 

[Kaantantr]

Cannot believe I have to say this again.

Read the previous threads.​