Alicization Upper Tier to Relativistic

[Kaantantr]

That argument kinda falls apart when you have the slightest bit of context regarding the world... Such shallow approaches already caused a lot of issues for this series, as one example, because "Interstellar travel" is mentioned in the series, a lot of people here were claiming Kirito was multi-solar system and stuff. When the reality was, "Planets" are called "Companion Stars", thus what's referred to as "Interstellar" in the series is basically going back and forth between two nearby planets rotating in the same orbit side by side.

That's why context is important. That's why I find cherry picked sentences incredibly problematic. Because reviewers cannot be bothered (and it is unreasonable to expect them to) for the full context.

But aside from that, I'm pretty sure your requirements for deciding lightspeed is not that barebones. A 5 step checklist was present in the previous thread.

 

[Leafbladie]

A 5 step checklist was present in the previous thread.

Only need 2 out of the 5 are necessary to make a claim of lightspeed btw, just want to remind people. It’s exceedingly rare that all 5 criteria are met or addressed within fiction. Kawahara calling it a laser and it being described as reflecting off a mirror would be enough for the starting claim. The rest would just be working out whether there’s more evidence for or against this interpretation.

 

[Kaantantr]

I keep emphasizing context, your first response is "They be called lasers and it reflected"...

We know it didn't reflect. Reki even states it does not behave as Light does, in the same quote you cite for being called a "laser".

How do you attribute behavioral properties, when it literally says "It doesn't behave as Light does"?

Again, problems upon problems when you decide to ignore things you don't like.

 

[RitsuØ1]

We know it didn't reflect.

It did reflect...

Reki even states it does not behave as Light does, in the same quote you cite for being called a "laser".

Headcanon/False

 

[Kaantantr]

It did reflect...

Headcanon/False

You do realize the citation not only uses the Kanji that is used for "Luminous Element" in the series, but also states the mirrors "reflection" is clarified with a "hold/retain"?

I don't know where my mind was at, it is indeed talking about maintaining Luminous Elements not "Light", as it's referring to Alice collecting spatial resources in her mirror retainer in War of Underworld. We know for a fact those are Luminous Elements, because what Alice does is collect up all the spatial resources on the battlefield that were expended by the loss of Life (capital L). And I have to thank you for making me look at it again. Because that is yet another link to what the Heaven Piercing Blade does. Expend its own Life (aka durability) to create a blast of Luminous Elements. Which I believe was already a topic in this thread already.

Because that's the fundamentals of Underworld. Life is Spatial Resources, can be turned into elements for Sacred Arts etc etc, we just go back to our usual loop.

 

[Leafbladie]

hold/retain

This is referring to Alice generating luminous elements within an enclosed mirror. All the elements when disconnected from the body can’t be maintained for very long. So at maximum most people can maintain 10 elements at a time, 1 for each finger. Chudelkin could do 20 by using his toes, and Administrator could do 100 (iirc, might be over a hundred) by using her hair.

So basically Kawahara is stating that light in the elemental state won’t deteriorate when enclosed within a mirror made from crystalline and metallic element. It basically was a carrying case for her to deposit all the luminous elements within.

This actually is “theoretically” possible in real life btw. If you had a mirror that was perfectly reflective at all wavelengths, then it wouldn’t absorb energy, and thus would be able to contain light within it infinitely without it being absorbed. It’s just that “pure mirrors” are an impossibility, like the Carnot Engine. Though the fact that Kawahara describes the mirror with 純粋 (meaning “pure/purity”), makes me believe the mirror being pure is the major deciding factor in this special interaction. Rather than a special property of the luminous element itself when compared to light.

I’m actually not sure how vsbattles evaluates sci-fi concepts like the Carnot engine or Perfect Mirrors though. As they might as well be magic, since they are completely unobtainable in our universe.

 

[Kaantantr]

You really love using big words to derail a conversation.

The point was not about what Alice was doing for what purpose. The point is that Luminous Elements can endlessly bounce around !not reflect! when met with a mirror object as they are not light. They are materialized orbs consisting of Spatial Resources summoned in the luminous type. The two concepts are different. And bounce off it did when Fanatio used the memory abilities that turned the Life of the weapon into a luminous energy blast.

But I am actually starting to get tired with this, with only one actual reviewer appearing in the thread so far with an extremely shallow take, that I am just going to mention how there are no hit-scan attacks in SAO, ALO and their derivative Seed based games, because the Cardinal System is responsible for balancing things and a hit-scan attack that you have no humanly way to react to is the definition of unbalanced. Which is why even the Optical Guns (light energy based weapons) in Gun Gale Online are not actually lightspeed despite actually being "Light" in universe. Again, another showcase of something being called "Light" but not actually acting as "Light" because context always matters.

And no, I am not just dialing back to the absolute origin just to confuse you because you somehow tend to get confused by anything that is longer than a cherry picked sentence. Fundamentals of the world should not even be confusing when you have a bare minimum knowledge of the series to begin with. I am, as usual, talking about basic concepts and fundamentals that make up these worlds that your claims actively faceplant against which your only reply is "Na-uh, I don't care, it says light".

 

[Leafbladie]

The point was not about what Alice was doing for what purpose. The point is that Luminous Elements can endlessly bounce

Again, this is an assumption that light element bounced. Even though bounce is only used to describe the interaction once (for what isn't even explicitly stated to be luminous element), and it's in the same sentence with the word reflect. "Bounced back" is a colloquial phrase for a 180 degree change in velocity, and reflection would more than likely be the mechanics through which this operates, considering both are used. Alice nor Kawahara mention the Luminous Elements or light bouncing.

because the Cardinal System is responsible for balancing things and a hit-scan attack that you have no humanly way to react to is the definition of unbalanced. Which is why even the Optical Guns (light energy based weapons) in Gun Gale Online are not actually lightspeed despite actually being "Light" in universe. Again, another showcase of something being called "Light" but not actually acting as "Light" because context always matters.

While I don't know about whether or not optical guns would be considered light speed or not, as they don't appear enough in universe to get a proper rundown of all their mechanics. I will mention that the idea they're unbalanced is laughable at best considering the defensive shield exists. It makes laser weapons essentially useless for PVP unless you get extremely close, which is why everyone uses regular guns. Also, they still still have bullet lines that would appear before the laser actually fires you can use to dodge.

 

[Kaantantr]

And we go in loops over and over. You consider Eugeo's knowledge of a myth told by someone who thinks they descended from heavens to be real, but do not trust Eugeo's description of reality.

By the way, I may add, if we are not trusting Eugeo's description of "one tenth of a second", a huge amount of feats for these characters also must be considered baseless, as most of them rely on descriptions of characters for things like "in an instant". If a characters' description of timing is not trustworthy, it's always untrustworthy. Just another showcase of you, not understanding the implications of your claims. A recurring issue in this thread.

I will mention that the idea they're unbalanced is laughable at best considering the defensive shield exists. It makes laser weapons essentially useless for PVP unless you get extremely close.

Okay, this portion is full on derailing but it just shows your lack of context in general. You really do not need to show your lack of understanding like this, especially when it wasn't even prompted. There isn't "one thing" that dictates a design choice, yet you try to condense everything into a single thing at all times.

Optical Guns are PvE oriented, as they are designed with Light based ammo, so players who want PvP grinds do not constantly have to restock by bringing lots of ammo with instead. This is not allowed by live ammo, because unlike "Light", they are physical and heavy. But the actual PvP still encourages physical gun usage to push people into more tactically planning their approaches. The reason for defensive shields is not to make them "irrelevant", as they are not made irrelevant at all. It is as your first line of defense against an ambush. It is not a limitless barrier, irrelevant of your distance. It will still deplete. And it is not a default, mandatory equipment either, takes up a slot. And a competent PvP team will still wipe you, whatever weapon type they are using. The shield basically elongates the incidents, it does not cancel it out.

which is why everyone uses regular guns.

That is only the case for exclusively PvP scenarios like BoB or SJ. Which is a miniscule portion of the game. A huge majority of players use optical guns, as the game is an Open World FPS RPG where people actually take on PvE challenges more often than they PvP. Just because your only experience is Kirito joining BoB does not mean BoB is the entire game.

Also, they still still have bullet lines that would appear before the laser actually fires you can use to dodge.

Someone forgot the game mechanics again. Bullet Lines are just a trade-off for the shooter to have aim assist, by giving away the lines as dodge assist to the defender. The game still allows you to play without producing Bullet Lines by not holding the gun with your finger on the trigger. And also, first shots of a sniper from a hiding spot also produces no lines. The game is still designed in a way for you to react to things in humanly ways, without having "light speed reactions" at your disposal and thus attacks are not hit-scan, whether they are live ammo or light ammo. Because we are still talking about humans. They do not function in light speed.

Every single statement you make, it is all shallow, isolated anecdotes that do not connect to the reality of the overall series, because you either lack information or purposefully omit information.

 

[Antvasima]

Kaantantr seems to make sense to me.

Should I ask more thread moderators to help out here, or is it better to close this thread?

 

[Vietthai96]

Kaantantr seems to make sense to me.

Should I ask more thread moderators to help out here, or is it better to close the thread?

we should ask more staffs to evaluate this, to be honest i don't think we need, but it is just my personal opinion, anyway for more fairness in discussion we need to call more staffs

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

@JustSomeWeirdo @Theglassman12 @Crabwhale @Eficiente @GyroNutz @DarkGrath @Confluctor

Would any of you be willing to help evaluate the following post please?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/alicization-upper-tier-to-relativistic.130469/post-4472985

 

[Confluctor]

This is referring to Alice generating luminous elements within an enclosed mirror. All the elements when disconnected from the body can’t be maintained for very long. So at maximum most people can maintain 10 elements at a time, 1 for each finger. Chudelkin could do 20 by using his toes, and Administrator could do 100 (iirc, might be over a hundred) by using her hair.

So basically Kawahara is stating that light in the elemental state won’t deteriorate when enclosed within a mirror made from crystalline and metallic element. It basically was a carrying case for her to deposit all the luminous elements within.

This actually is “theoretically” possible in real life btw. If you had a mirror that was perfectly reflective at all wavelengths, then it wouldn’t absorb energy, and thus would be able to contain light within it infinitely without it being absorbed. It’s just that “pure mirrors” are an impossibility, like the Carnot Engine. Though the fact that Kawahara describes the mirror with 純粋 (meaning “pure/purity”), makes me believe the mirror being pure is the major deciding factor in this special interaction. Rather than a special property of the luminous element itself when compared to light.

I’m actually not sure how vsbattles evaluates sci-fi concepts like the Carnot engine or Perfect Mirrors though. As they might as well be magic, since they are completely unobtainable in our universe.

About this scan, is there a page before it or after which shows the fight? Or something that will give us a rough estimate of how fast it might have been going?

 

[Leafbladie]

I'm at work, so don't have the time to make a full response to all of this, but can't let this go unchallenged.

Okay, this portion is full on derailing

The topic of balance and how light speed guns would break it was brought up by Kaantantr, just want this to be known to everyone. Just because I challenged that assertion by saying the optical guns being light speed would not be a major impact on balance in pvp because of the defense shield system does not constitute derailment. But every single challenge I have to Kaantantr's points is met to attack my character, debate skills, or intelligence.

Anyway, I'll get full context for these points and others later.

 

[Kaantantr]

Kaantantr seems to make sense to me.

Should I ask more thread moderators to help out here, or is it better to close this thread?

I do believe it will be better if we wait for DMUA specifically. While I'm bringing in stuff directly from the series, since he is both well versed with what I'm saying and about the VS specifics, he usually puts things into better context that is relevant for people here.

The topic of balance and how light speed guns would break it was brought up by Kaantantr, just want this to be known to everyone.

That was literally a portion I added, because what I was going to say had nothing to do with the topic at hand, so people who were not interested could just skip it.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

@DMUA

Would you also be willing to help out here please?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/alicization-upper-tier-to-relativistic.130469/post-4472985

 

[Kaantantr]

About this scan, is there a page before it or after which shows the fight? Or something that will give us a rough estimate of how fast it might have been going?

I can provide two illustrations straight from the novels, but none of them are the exact moment. This one is the charge up period for the exact attack.

We can see the Heaven Piercing Blade putting its life into the actual blade to generate spatial resources about to be unleashed. In this instance, Fanatio is using the first tier of the memory ability, called with the Sacred Arts (magic in Underworld) Command "Enhance Armament". The spatial resources of course are of Luminous type. Life -> Spatial Resources conversation (and vice versa) is the basis of Underworld's fundamentals.

Below, you will see a later event. It is also the memory ability of the Heaven Piercing Blade, but it's the second tier called with the command "Release Recollection". The tier does not change what the inherent memory ability is, but its potency. It's again a blast of Luminous resources, that are clashing with the counteracting Sacred Arts element, a cloud of Umbral attack unleashed the same way by Kirito's Night Sky Sword and simply gets absorbed by it, as Umbral is the advantageous element over Luminous by possessing said absorption abilities (which is the memory ability of the Night Sky Sword, to absorb Spatial Resources).

Basically, the illustration above is just a more powerful version of the previous attack, so imagine it being thinner instead and nothing more.

 

[DMUA]

I disagree with the upgrade.

I've already discussed this before and my perspective hasn't changed, I'll let Kaantar argue.

 

[Leafbladie]

I disagree with the upgrade.

I've already discussed this before and my perspective hasn't changed, I'll let Kaantar argue.

I’d honestly rather discuss this further with you than Kaantantr, but if you’d rather not, then that’s understandable.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I’d honestly rather discuss this further with you than Kaantantr, but if you’d rather not, then that’s understandable.

Just saying, as it would turn out most mods aren't really gonna give things that have been discussed and drained the light of day, and this is definitely one of those topics.

 

[Leafbladie]

Unfortunately I have my taxes to do now, and a 14 hour work day today, so I'm probably going to postpone a proper response until Tuesday.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

 

[Leafbladie]

Alright, I had something written up for a rebuttal to Kaantantr’s interpretation of the scene where Kirito’s and Fantio’s “beams” (layman terms) clash with each other. It was going to talk about how Kirito’s sword can’t be releasing just a cloud of Umbral Element, because it actually has mass, and Eugeo talks about how he can see the wood of the tree at the tip, and how that relates to Fanatio and her attack. But I realized the language was getting quite technical, and was going to have more arguments on minutia, and it’s just going to drag this thread further and further along until I’m unable to respond as my second job goes in full swing.

So, I’m just going to go in a different direction.

Here’s a quote directly stating the Heaven-Piercing Sword has the light of Solus imbued in it.

I feel like I’m going to get a lot of pushback for using a game quote, so to nip that in the bud. My argument is not solely reliant on it, it’s just the most direct and concise statement of my interpretation from official media to build off. I know the light novel and game have different continuities, but I am just quoting from Fanatio’s explanation of how the Heaven-Piercing Sword was made, which has no reason to differ from how it was formed in the Light Novel continuity. In fact, if you compare them, there are no contradictions, with the same emphasis on how many mirrors there were, how they were arranged, the effects they had, and how they were forged into the sword. Fanatio even states the same assumption that was made in volume 14 about how this experiment may have led to the creation of the Sword Golem.

And really, why wouldn’t it? It was mentioned that "together with Reki Kawahara, Kazuma Miki would regularly check the game’s elements to make sure there’s no discrepancies with what is written in the novels. And in turn, decided to change a few things to make the story work better as an RPG, all why properly explaining these changes in the game’s story and exposition."

And finally, to address the possibility that the mention of the Heaven-Piercing Sword being imbued with the light of Solus might just be one such discrepancy, I will first talk about the context of how this exposition is relayed in the game vs the novel, then go into how the novel actually supports this interpretation.

So, in the novel, Fanatio is relaying this information as a way to taunt and humiliate her opponents, viewing them as sinners. “… she had those thousand mirrors bundled and strengthened and honed down into a single sword: the Heaven-Piercing Blade. Do you understand me sinner? It was the power of Solus itself that pierced your stomach and foot!”

In the games where she’s mentioning the creation of her sword to Kirito after a friendly sparring session: “From [the mirrors] the Heaven-Piercing Blade was forged and imbued with the light of Solus.”

So both mentioned the 1000 mirrors being forged into the actual blade, but the game seems to add the imbuement of the light of Solus within. So, a discrepancy, right? Well, not necessarily. Again, she mentions in the light novel, directly after recounting how her sword was forged, that “the power of Solus itself” was what pierced Kirito. Remember, she’s doing this in part to taunt them both, she is going to smite them with the light of Solus, to bring them ultimate judgment. If she told them it was imbued with the light of Solus, well, it takes away from the rhetorical question she asks then answers right after this: “Do you understand me sinner? It was the power of Solus itself…”

So that’s the reason I see for the “discrepancy” within the explanation within the game and the light novel. Fanatio simply didn’t state after the sword’s creation that it was imbued with the light of Solus, because of her desire to taunt him. But it wouldn’t mean much if I didn’t support it with the actual text, so let’s move onto that.

The most substantial support I see for this interpretation actually comes from when Fanatio uses release recollection. She cries out: “Hidden light of the Heaven-Piercing Blade, cast off your shackles!! Release Recollection!!” (Link)

Notice how the light is mentioned to be of the Heaven-Piercing Blade, and also hidden. As in, hidden within the Heaven-Piercing Blade. It’s mentioned that “the silver of the blade shone brighter than it ever had… A multitude of beams streamed outward from the tip of the weapon.” So again, we see this image of light within the sword being released within its blade to escape out its tip as a concentrated force.

This isn’t just a one-off mention either. “the rapier glinted in the knight’s hands. Or more accurately, the entire body of it flashed, and then it stretched forward at incredible speed.” “Fanatio’s sword flashed and blasted after him, gouging stone with each volley.” “The Heaven-Piercing Blade flashed, surging with the beam of light… Before the light erupted from the tip of Fanatio’s sword.”

So the light that erupts from the blade has its origins within itself, the light of Solus that was imbued within it. This might seem strange, since without it, the blade would theoretically be useless outside of its higher than average priority level. But it makes sense considering the nature of the items it was crafted from.

The one thousand mirrors that made up the sword were not inherently noteworthy. Their power came from amplifying and concentrating another’s power into something greater, that power being the light of Solus. The mirrors can’t generate light or Luminous Element, so why would the sword be able to? That doesn’t make any logical sense. The powers and attacks of the Divine Weapons can seem rather detached from the objects they were made from, like with Kirito’s sword being made from a tree but firing what essentially looks like a black energy attack. However, all of these attacks do relate to some properties that the objects they were made from inherently had. Like that aforementioned attack being able to absorb light like the Gigas Cedar once did.

So I ask again, what did the one thousand mirrors do? Amplify and concentrate the light of Solus onto a single point. What then does the Heaven-Piercing Sword do? Amplify and concentrate the light of Solus imbued within it into a single beam through the tip of the rapier by using the one thousand mirrors that make it up.

Now, the final question some might be asking: Where did the light of Solus within the blade come from? This is actually pretty simple to answer, from the same source that forged the blade: The Administrator, The Pontifex, Quinella herself. Why wouldn’t she be able to do this? Light in this world is just data, able to be manipulated through the system, and she understood this better than anyone.

And no, just to nip this in the bud, I don’t think the Administrator is lying about this or Fanatio has a poor understanding of her sword and its mechanics. The thing you have to remember about stories is they are contrived by nature. We cannot directly experience these worlds or perform experiments within them to validate the information the characters exposit about their own world and how it works. At best we can ask the author to verify its validity (but don’t do that, seriously).

Things like Fanatio being a knight sent from the heavens are assertions directly challenged by the story within itself, we are directly presented with information that contradicts this system. If a story makes a false claim about its own world, then it has to challenge this claim itself, because we are not participants within this world who can do so ourselves. The narrative of Sword Art Online gives us no DIRECT reason to doubt Fanatio’s claims about her own sword. No character says “she can’t possibly be right about her sword!” She never expresses any doubt over the nature of her weapon, even after the death of the Administrator and her lies being exposed. Administrator was the one who created the sword and lied to her about so much regarding her role, yet Fanatio never saw reason to doubt the nature of its creation, its qualities, or Quinella's claims of its qualities, such as being imbued with the light of Solus. And the book is willing to clarify the mechanics of a weapon in game mechanics if it deems it necessary. Such as Bercouli's Uragiri, where the novel explains how it would interfere with the log system, rather than actually being an attack that literary travels back in time (even though it effectively achieves the same thing). The book could have done the exact same thing if Fanatio's explanation was incorrect, and the simplest explanation would be that she simply is not.

 

[Kaantantr]

Alright, this should be fun... I hope you don't do taxes the same way you argue these tbh...

Kirito’s sword can’t be releasing just a cloud of Umbral Element, because it actually has mass, and Eugeo talks about how he can see the wood of the tree at the tip, and how that relates to Fanatio and her attack

It baffles me how you miss the entire point of the Memory Abilities. They use their own life, to conjure attacks based on their sacred arts element. I referred to it as a cloud, as that would be more understandable for reviewers coming in to read who are not aware of the exact concepts of SAO. I am not going to waste their time by explaining the full origins of the weapon in order to be able to explain what it manifests into, when I was explicitly requested a brief summary for people without a context.

From the 50 times you have been told in this thread, I would have expected you to understand that the Night Sky Sword simply unleashed a wave of Umbral Eleme-- Oh wait, I actually said it right there, but given your habits of cherry picking, you literally got stuck up on the word "cloud" instead, and missed the entire point by doing so... I explicitly said "Umbral attack unleashed the same way by Kirito's Night Sky Sword". As it's been told numerous times, it's not about "how something looks", it's about "what something is". Manifestations are just manifestations existing of their specific type of element. Kirito unleashed a wave of Umbral Elements from the sword, the same way Fanatio unleashed a wave of Luminous elements that got absorbed by the Umbral. We'll get to your Time Splitting Blade example later, which I already stated as an exception in this convo, but I guess you also did not pay attention there, to nobodies surprise...

Talking about how the game quote matches the LN

You aren't wrong. It's just that trying to create this equivalence is irrelevant. It does not serve a purpose. The game roughly uses the same raw for these sections, just translated by Bandai Namco's translation team rather than Stephen Paul. So there are only minor differences in style or word choices. Although we know for a fact Bandai Namco translators were very liberal with their translations in Alicization Lycoris. We had countless notes back on the Wikia as to how they threw out lines just to conjure their own ones at times. It's very clear the games translation editing went through an aggressive "localization" phase.

But if you are looking for more info on Divine Weapons, the first paid DLC actually goes into a bit more detail at the very beginning. It's still very shallow compared to the information you'll get from the novels, but I recommend giving it a check.

Aside from that, your talk about how this ties into assumptions regarding the Sword Golem is even further irrelevant, which just sounds like you are adding knowledge for the sake of sounding knowledgeable.

Either way, multiple paragraphs of nothing really. Just fluff, trying to convince people that the game matches the light novel translation bar some stylistic choices, which was never a point of conflict anyways.

“Hidden light of the Heaven-Piercing Blade, cast off your shackles!! Release Recollection!!”

I don't think you realize the casting yells are just part of the bond between the user and the sword. They aren't real, they are symbolic. Alice yells for her flowers, Eugeo yells for the roses to bloom. For example, Renly basically just tells the Wings to do their thing because he believes they don't suck, unlike him. That was his bond with the weapon, how he felt useless without a partner he could rely on, which was part of the memory of the blades, the two birds with a single wing who had to rely on each other to be able to fly. Kirito doesn't even say anything, etc.

So the light that erupts from the blade has its origins within itself, the light of Solus that was imbued within it.

No. It is literally the Life (capital L) being turned into spatial resources to be shot away as an attack.

The mirrors can’t generate light or Luminous Element, so why would the sword be able to?

Because the sword is not the mirrors. Divine Weapons are granted their powers based on their lore. Gigas Cedar also had nothing to do with Umbral Elements. But it's lore was "sucking up spatial resources", hence why it's attributed to Umbral Elements that are known for their absorption abilities, particularly effective against Luminous Elements.

Now, the final question some might be asking: Where did the light of Solus within the blade come from? This is actually pretty simple to answer, from the same source that forged the blade: The Administrator, The Pontifex, Quinella herself. Why wouldn’t she be able to do this? Light in this world is just data, able to be manipulated through the system, and she understood this better than anyone.

And no, just to nip this in the bud, I don’t think the Administrator is lying about this or Fanatio has a poor understanding of her sword and its mechanics. The thing you have to remember about stories is they are contrived by nature. We cannot directly experience these worlds or perform experiments within them to validate the information the characters exposit about their own world and how it works. At best we can ask the author to verify its validity (but don’t do that, seriously).

This is the one thing that shows your lack of understanding of the series, more than anything else you have said so far. And in this entire thread, you have said plenty.

Quinella has no such powers. She has no power to "manipulate the system". Why do you think she needed Yanai from the outside to achieve a lot of things? And here, you claim she imbued the sword with the Sun... All the Underworlders are "just data", why doesn't she just manipulate them? Because she has no power to manipulate the data. When you are in a game, all you can do is what the game allows you to do. To be able to alter the game, you need to ALT+F4 and go knee deep into the game code itself. That's the difference between "Administrator" and Yanai.

And then you go on to say that you believe that Administrator is not lying... The person who lies on a consistent basis to manipulate people verbally, the one who created the entire order of Integrity Knights based on massive lies, you believe would not lie, just to establish a mythical lore for Fanatio to visualize to be able to draw out the memory abilities of the sword... You know, the thing you need to be able to visualize, because the bulk of the work is being done by Incarnation?

Things like Fanatio being a knight sent from the heavens are assertions directly challenged by the story within itself

So is your claim of the sword shooting an actual laser... Doesn't seem to stop you...

She never expresses any doubt over the nature of her weapon, even after the death of the Administrator and her lies being exposed.

Why should she? Why would it matter to her? Does anybody ever come to her to give an extensive explanation about the world? Does she even need such an exposition? In Moon Cradle, we know Integrity Knights don't even care about most of these stuff that the Sacred Arts Experts at the Cathedral are dealing with. All they need to know is the end result they want to achieve, not how it is achieved. And it also would not matter in Fanatio's case, who has used the weapon for over a hundred years by now. She knows what the weapon can do. Whether she calls upon the "light of Solus" or "the blessings of Solus" makes no difference. She is well beyond the point of "I need to be dramatic about how I cast this" and it's more about the intimidation factor of the opponent. It also generally helps to have a statement of action just as part of the Incarnation fueling the attack. For example, when cutting down Sigurosig, Fanatio doesn't even say the command. She bypasses it with her Incarnation and just goes "Return to the bowels of the earth" referring to Sigurosig, rather than saying anything to the sword. It's all about your own state of mind and intent when it comes to Incarnation after all. I hope you understand what I'm referring to, because if your next argument is "Heaven Piercing Blade is actually made from the intestines of the planets", I will actually leave this mess.

And the book is willing to clarify the mechanics of a weapon in game mechanics if it deems it necessary. Such as Bercouli's Uragiri, where the novel explains how it would interfere with the log system, rather than actually being an attack that literary travels back in time (even though it effectively achieves the same thing). The book could have done the exact same thing if Fanatio's explanation was incorrect, and the simplest explanation would be that she simply is not.

EXACTLY!!! So you did found out about that! You know when the book deems it necessary to explain the mechanics of a weapon? When that weapon behaves completely out of the ordinary! You may not remember because you have a hard time looking at things with a wider perspective, but I explicitly had mentioned this very early on in this conversation. Glad to see it took you over 100 replies in the thread to figure it out.

The only exception to this is if the origin of the Divine Object is an actual System Object to begin with. And the only example we know of this is Bercouli's Time Splitting Sword which was the System Clock of the simulation. It is the only one that does not utilize its Life to unleash a form of Spatial Resources, but uses it to tap into the System Time Logs instead. It still uses Life to achieve it, it's just that it does not result in Spatial Resources being discharged.

You see, the Time Splitting Sword was an actual System Object that had direct ties to the System. It's literally the System Clock, that's one of the most fundamental things of a system. That's where it memory ability comes from.

Now, if you turned other System Objects into weapons, you also would be able to get system related abilities like that. As far as we know so far though, there are no such things. However, Istar's divine pistol in URV may have some system related properties as it cancels out Incarnation. So it likely has something to do with the connection to the Main Visualizer, which is where incarnate abilities originate from. So if you need more system related abilities, you need to wait a bit longer for us to spend more time in Underworld.

But going back to the topic, of course the book is not going to explain how a Divine Object works every single time, unless it is an exception. It would need to repeat itself 2 dozen times if it tried to. At that point, a simple background info drop is enough for the reader to figure out the rest, because all they need to know is where the ability stems from.

Which is also exactly why we never get to see Scheta's Black Lily Sword's Memory Ability. We know it is a divine weapon. But we never get a concrete background of what it actually was. We just know it was a "flower that bloomed where no other flowers bloomed in the Dark Territory". It's arguable whether it even has a memory ability, or just is a sword with high priority. We know you don't necessarily need memory abilities to succeed, none of the Super Accounts have weapons with memory abilities for example.

But yeah, that's just trivia from my side. You went above and beyond to just repeat the exact same things, some of which were actually things I said that you never realized. But if that was your final reply, it is probably time to close this thread.

If it isn't, you will need to explain based on your own claims as to why "Light" from the Heaven Piercing Blade and "Wood" from the Night Sky Sword were equally fast and met in the middle? Was it Light moving at the speed of Wood? Was it Wood moving at the speed of Light? Hehehe, you don't actually need to answer this, I'm just mocking your argument, because once again, you do not think about the implications of your claims. You throw them out, hoping one sticks and then get frustrated when someone brings those holes into the spotlight for everyone to see.

 

[Antvasima]

Kaantantr seems to make sense above. Should we close this thread soon, or is there anything useful that can be applied based on it?

 

[Leafbladie]

You aren't wrong. It's just that trying to create this equivalence is irrelevant. It does not serve a purpose.

The comparison is to show they aren’t contradictory to one another, and that Kawahara did look over it to make sure it matched up with the story. That the additional line of being “imbued with the power of Solus” is there shows it’s consistent with Kawahara’s story. So either the light of Solus is literally inside the sword, or she just thinks it is for some reason. The addition if the sword golem bit was to show it also wasn’t just a lazy transcript of the exposition in chapter 12.

No. It is literally the Life (capital L) being turned into spatial resources to be shot away as an attack.

Cool, then why couldn’t it just bring forth the light imbued within her sword for her attack? Eldrie’s able to use the life of his weapon to summon the snake that was turned into it. What sacred arts element is it using to do that? What sacred arts element makes up the ******* animals?

Divine Weapons are granted their powers based on their lore. Gigas Cedar also had nothing to do with Umbral Elements. But it's lore was "sucking up spatial resources", hence why it's attributed to Umbral Elements that are known for their absorption abilities, particularly effective against Luminous Elements.

This is neat and all. But again, the attack actually did deal with the quality the items inherently had. The tree was incredibly tough and a resource hog, so its attack is one that absorbs resources, and has a heavy weight to it. The mirrors don’t inherently have any property to them beyond amplifying and concentrating light. If it has the light of Solus was imbued within it, then that makes more sense with its lore, not less.

Quinella has no such powers. She has no power to "manipulate the system". Why do you think she needed Yanai from the outside to achieve a lot of things? And here, you claim she imbued the sword with the Sun...

Kaantatr, you have to be doing this on purpose. Making my arguments sound more ludicrous than they actually are. Light is just photons, the photons in the Underworld would all come from the sun. Quinella just needs to use the system to move the photons in area exposed to the sun into the sword. She can transmodify animals and trees into weapons, and use the system to move objects by command, why wouldn’t be able to do this? Hell, just generate a Luminous Element inside the sword, burst it within, so it releases actual light, there we go, light trapped within the sword.

Doesn't seem to stop you…

Nothing to say about this, except right back at you Kaantantr.

"Heaven Piercing Blade is actually made from the intestines of the planets", I will actually leave this mess.

Sure “Heaven Piercing Blade is actually made from the intestines of the planets.” I doubt Kaantantr would actually leave, seeing as he already said he would a while ago, but had to try.

So you did found out about that! You know when the book deems it necessary to explain the mechanics of a weapon? When that weapon behaves completely out of the ordinary! You may not remember because you have a hard time looking at things with a wider perspective, but I explicitly had mentioned this very early on in this conversation. Glad to see it took you over 100 replies in the thread to figure it out.

I always knew that, but keep on pretending everyone but you is just an idiot Kaantantr, I’m sure it gets you lots of friends. The novel just explained it because the character was unable to. Because that’s how you do exposition, you let the characters explain it for you, so you don’t repeat the same explanation twice.

If it isn't, you will need to explain based on your own claims as to why "Light" from the Heaven Piercing Blade and "Wood" from the Night Sky Sword were equally fast and met in the middle?

There’s nothing in the book stating they met in the middle.

 

[CurrySenpai]

"Instantly, his entire vision went white. Powerful light, like the descent of Solus itself, filled the room. It was a simple spell that released light, one of the elements that made up the building blocks of elemental sacred arts, but Kirito had never actually made the chant to produce the element in the first place. So where did it…? Oh. It had been there all along—the light elements they created to illuminate the armory many minutes ago. Ever since, they had been floating around, waiting for the command input that would utilize them. Kirito simply gave that command to the elements overhead, producing a sudden burst of light."

Since they can blind foes, shouldn't they be releasing photons, like a flash-bang? So wouldn't the light the Luminous Elements release when commanded to burst be light speed?

Just an idea I had I could be completely wrong.

 

[Kaantantr]

Just to keep the important bit on top, as the rest is just me having fun, I'll put this here:

There’s nothing in the book stating they met in the middle.

If you are going to be claiming "the Speed of Light", anything that is not Kirito's blade where his Umbral Element barrage would come out of, is "in the middle". Like, that is currently the only thing you need to come to terms with, if you even want to move forward here.

The comparison is to show they aren’t contradictory to one another

Just for clarity, "not contradictory" is not "in line with". And again, while I am saying Lycoris is accurate, it still stumbles upon the exact same problem. Fanatio is talking about a myth.

then why couldn’t it just bring forth the light imbued within her sword for her attack

Because there isn't such a thing. It's literally the transformation art you have seen countless times in the series. Take an object (or multiple objects), turn them into a weapon.

Eldrie’s able to use the life of his weapon to summon the snake that was turned into it.

It didn't summon a snake. It transformed the whip itself and allowed the memory of the snake take agency of it. Remember when Kirito's sword grew in size during his fight with Volo Levantein, because Kirito activated the memory ability (unknowingly) via incarnation and the Gigas Cedar heeded his call, absorbed the spatial resources in the room to grow in size. Tying back to the previous answer, transformation exists. Quinella is the only one (at the time) who knows the Sacred Arts for it. But the point of Incarnation is to literally bypass sacred arts to achieve things.

What sacred arts element makes up the ******* animals?

Depends on the animal. Deusolbert's Conflagration Bow originates from a guardian phoenix, thus is Thermal Element based. Eldrie's weapon has no ranged attack at all, it's literally a physical based weapon. Same with Renly. In fact, iirc, so is Alice's. So the spatial resources (using the Life of the weapon just like elemental ranged attacks) is basically used for the transformation. Physicals is yet another topic, which is why I never brought that up.

The mirrors don’t inherently have any property to them beyond amplifying and concentrating light.

Except when its lore states it does. Have you not realized that all of the concepts we have been talking about are intertwined into each other? How the story of a weapon defines what it does? The story of the Blue Rose Sword is literally a Rose that bloomed on top of a mountain and felt so lonely that it spoke to the snow/ice to make friends. And how the ice felt so sad about the withering rose that it decided to encase it, so that it could protect it forever. That is the story, the myth that gives the Blue Rose Sword its power. In fact, since you are a fan of Lycoris, you can find a great showcase of this story and how Kirito reflects on it. And while it is the story that gives the object its power, it is on the Incarnation of the user to have that power manifest. To be frank, if you ask me, it should technically be possible for a weapon to manifest in different elements, since technically, it is the wielder who channels that power in specific ways. As long as it fits with an aspect of the memory, it should be possible, however we have no examples for it, thus it just remains as "my speculation" at this point, thus cannot argue.

However, we know that the user already can make the distinction of how it manifests. Bercouli states it was due to his cheeky Time Splitting Sword that both Fanatio and Alice manifested ranged attacks. And we already see Kirito manifesting the powers of his Night Sky Sword in different ways.

Light is just photons, the photons in the Underworld would all come from the sun. Quinella just needs to use the system to move the photons in area exposed to the sun into the sword.

"Photons" are not objects. Heck, you are talking under the assumption that Underworld has raytracing, whereas the simulation does not even have the insides of a human simulated to save up on resources. The bodies literally just have "crit spots" programmed into them same as any other game, nothing more. All we know about Light in Underworld is that it is one of the 2 primary sources of spatial resources, the other one being the earth, as Terraria.

She can transmodify animals and trees into weapons, and use the system to move objects by command, why wouldn’t be able to do this?

Because they are actually classified as "objects".

I doubt Kaantantr would actually leave

I think you missed the hint of sarcasm there due to the absurdity of the statement... Maybe that is because you actually took it seriously? I hope not... Planet Cardina does not have intestines, you know that, right?

I’m sure it gets you lots of friends

I'm not here to make friends. Heck, everyone already hated me here when I first arrived, because some members from here were raiding my videos and I called them out on it. I am here to help the reviewers here as much as I can to ensure the factual accuracy of the claims made here, because for years upon years, the members have misled a lot of reviewers to get away with so much, that on the SAO Wikia, as well as plenty of other platforms, all of this misinformation was leaking out and just causing more problems. People like Problem for example are still attempting to get away with things, despite having been warned about this exact behavior.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think you are one of those people who just want to jack Kirito up. I just think you are misinformed yourself due to your cherry picking attitude and are just too busy with your taxes to get a good grasp on the series' fundamentals at the moment. Or just too proud to back down, despite having brought up dozens of claims, none of which have gone anywhere and have been constantly retreading previous discussions.

but keep on pretending everyone but you is just an idiot Kaantantr

This is actually not the case. In fact, I tried shying away from that implication for a long time, until I eventually had to explain middle school topics. I did tell you that you were incredibly uneducated on the topic though. Because;

1) You never read the prior threads

2) Lied about your translation without even understanding its context.

3) All your arguments were cherry picked content, disregarding the fundamentals of the series.

The novel just explained it because the character was unable to. Because that’s how you do exposition, you let the characters explain it for you, so you don’t repeat the same explanation twice.

Beautiful. Well done man... You must have missed that the character actually did explain it all the way back in Alicization Dividing. He explained as much as he knew, which wasn't much. He just knew that the weapon sliced into the future (and withheld the info that it could slice to the past). That is literally the exact scenario as Fanatio's explanation. Once again, a claim of yours just allows me to bring up a case that works against you... The user has limited information on the circumstances. Heck, we don't even learn the limits of the weapon or why those limits exist because Bercouli has no understanding of it, has no knowledge of it. We get to learn the limits of the weapon in WoU because unlike the other Divine Weapons whose limits are their adversarial elements or their own durability running out, Bercouli's functions on a different plane entirely, which is why we get a different explanation. You'll realize we don't get such a technical explanation for Renly's blades. Because they do work on traditional terms.

And this may sound very stupid but who's to say Luminous Element while not being actual light can't move as fast as light?

Not stupid at all. The key point is that an element is simply a projectile of its own, not the "actual thing", which is also why their Kanji is overwritten with Furigana. . It is an object (due to lack of a better term to use here, it is not actually an "object" in the system classification sense), an orb with a property.

For example, 闇素 is the Kanji for "Dark Element" and that is the Kanji used for it. However, it features アンブラ as its Furigana overwriting it, making it "Umbral Element". Umbral Element is not literal void or actual darkness, it's an orb (that looks dark alright) that has the property of being able to absorb resources and can be used to track objects for example.

 

[Vietthai96]

"Instantly, his entire vision went white. Powerful light, like the descent of Solus itself, filled the room. It was a simple spell that released light, one of the elements that made up the building blocks of elemental sacred arts, but Kirito had never actually made the chant to produce the element in the first place. So where did it…? Oh. It had been there all along—the light elements they created to illuminate the armory many minutes ago. Ever since, they had been floating around, waiting for the command input that would utilize them. Kirito simply gave that command to the elements overhead, producing a sudden burst of light."

Since they can blind foes, shouldn't they be releasing photons, like a flash-bang? So wouldn't the light the Luminous Elements release when commanded to burst be light speed?

Just an idea I had I could be completely wrong.

No, or you could just make every energy beam in every fiction to have light speed cuz they "generated light"

 

[Leafbladie]

If you are going to be claiming "the Speed of Light", anything that is not Kirito's blade where his Umbral Element barrage would come out of, is "in the middle". Like, that is currently the only thing you need to come to terms with, if you even want to move forward here.

Darkness in reality is just the absence of light, appearing just as fast as light recedes, so who's to say it wouldn't be light speed as well?

Just for clarity, "not contradictory" is not "in line with". And again, while I am saying Lycoris is accurate, it still stumbles upon the exact same problem. Fanatio is talking about a myth.

Again, ignoring the quote that Kawahara was looking over it to make sure it was in line with the LN. I was showing how it did match up with the novel to show this wasn't just blowing smoke. Also, Fanatio was literally at work as an Integrity Knight when it was made, it's not a myth to her, it was something performed directly by the Administrator. Now, granted, she might not have seen it, we don't know, but it's not some legend in her eyes. She literally knows the mechanics of how the mirrors work. Why would she envision it differently for her attack, than something that amplifies the power of Solus?

Because they are actually classified as "objects".

This is an assumption that light is not an object within the Underworld. And there's no real reason to make that assumption. Like Kaantantr, do you seriously think that something not having mass makes it not an object? Photons are objects, even if they don't have mass, is that too hard to understand? People of the Underworld are able to manipulate and influence massless objects within this world, so again, why can't she do that for light or photons?

The code for the Aqueous Element allows for it to release water, plain old H2O. The code for the Luminous Element allows it to release photons for blinding attacks. If it can be called by the system, then why wouldn't it be able to be manipulated or generated? The commands for it already exist.

I think you missed the hint of sarcasm there due to the absurdity of the statement... Maybe that is because you actually took it seriously? I hope not... Planet Cardina does not have intestines, you know that, right?

Eh, I was 99% sure it was sarcasm, but even a 1% chance would be worth it for the results.

Beautiful. Well done man... You must have missed that the character actually did explain it all the way back in Alicization Dividing. He explained as much as he knew, which wasn't much. He just knew that the weapon sliced into the future (and withheld the info that it could slice to the past). That is literally the exact scenario as Fanatio's explanation.

The system clock is a concept that is beyond Bercouli's understanding. As Administrator said, "it makes time", and he doesn't seem to understand that basic element. Fanatio does understand the concept of the mirrors though. She understand what they did, what their purpose was for, along with the mechanics of how they worked etc. This is not a fair comparison in the slightest.

 

[Leafbladie]

No, or you could just make every energy beam in every fiction to have light speed cuz they "generated light"

Flashbangs have to release photons. You can only blind someone with light by overloading their photon receptors (or if it's magical light I guess), and photons always move at whatever speed light moves at through the medium it travels through. Like, it's possible to make a glowing object or projectile that wouldn't actually be light speed, so that's part of why we have the laser rule. But if it's blinding someone through light, then the natural assumption would be that its photon based unless we have some reason to assume otherwise.

 

[Vietthai96]

Flashbangs have to release photons. You can only blind someone with light by overloading their photon receptors (or if it's magical light I guess), and photons always move at whatever speed light moves at through the medium it travels through. Like, it's possible to make a glowing object or projectile that wouldn't actually be light speed, so that's part of why we have the laser rule. But if it's blinding someone through light, then the natural assumption would be that its photon based unless we have some reason to assume otherwise.

We don't do that, or everything broken, if blinding someone always have Speed of Light, then it is not a problem for character who have FTL speed and above, but consistently FTL to MFTL+ still get blinded by "light"

 

[DMUA]

Should we close this thread soon

I genuinely beg of you at this point

 

[Confluctor]

I will do so.

If anyone wants it reopened, ask on my wall

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you to everybody who helped out here.