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Alex Mercer vs Sonic

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You are aware the gasses aren't passive right? Its something he activates, he's going to activate when sonics in range so no sonics not going to assume alex is anything more then a human. Alex also loves stealth/decieving his opponent he may run towards sonic, or just wait for sonic to get to close.

If the gasses touches sonic thats gg....Again he fought shadow and spammed after he learned shadow had his own hax? So you think he's going to somehow deduce mercer can release gas in a two hundred meter radius at will? Thats a pretty big leap...

Sonic does have better hax and abilities, alex useses his first... Thats all there is to it, youve repeated the same argument fifty times and we've asked for proof repeadtedly you have yet to provide anything that makes me think sonic would use his hax against alex before alex uses his against sonic.

Alex is game character two! But he has cutscenes of him using his hax! Cirno all this fight does is assume speed equal, the only reason this is even a fight is due to sonics in character behavior.

Again no solid ap gap exist for atomization, youd need to prove sonic can atomize via ap, which he cant so ap is irrelevant here. I asked a calc member to be sure here In other words you can't just assume one character can atomize another based on ap

The shrinking doesn't matter, if the gas touches him in any capacity he's done. Air manips great, just not so good after it's touched you. The problem here is still sonics in character behavior. He has tons of hax to destroy merecer. Mercer isn't threatening enough for him to assume he needs to use those hax.

The example you provided is of a giant swinging a golden weapon...What does that prove? Alex looks human, he's liable to wait for sonic to get in range of his gas, rather then shapeshift his weapons into place. Alex is going for the kill, that means he goes for the gass when his opponent is in range.

How is he going to deduce his opponent has any hax period when his opponent looks human? His opponent isn't liable to attack/or move until sonics in range. If sonic gets surounded by the gas he dies...Period.

when has sonic opened with becoming invisible and intangible against what appears to be an average mook? Why would he bother? He has no prior knowledge, alex is just some guy in a hoodie. He's not liable to open with hax that kill him, alex will always open with a hax that can kill sonic.
 
Emissary From Hell said:
And if you want to argue Sonic wouldn't know Alex's ability is deadly, Sonic knows from experiences such as Eggman gassing him in SA1 that he is potentially vulnerable to gas, if Alex used a gas based attack and Sonic saw himself surrounded by it, he'd rely on something like Time Break to escape the situation.

Edit: I meant to quote VioletVoid's most recent comment.
Click to expand...
An experience that Sonic that ends up with him failing to react to or counter the gas attack... And I haven't seem him even dealing with such after that. Even the chemical plant scenario had him running through the chemical gasses rather than just countering it with his hax.
 
DeathNoodles said:
Godhand1999 said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fE9yPDzVwvM

7:11

Sonic has dealt with gasous stuff before.

Also, Chemical Plant is another instance of Sonic dealing with deadly or gaseous substances.

As soon as Alex Mercer becomes a gaseous form? Sonic is not going to spindash or homing attack the enemy. He's going to use his ability to become intagiable AND invisibile which is good because Alex now can't see or infect him, then use Violet Void to literally atomize his body to pieces.

It's over, lol. Sonic wins
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You literally just provided an example of Sonic "dealing" (more like experiencing) with something when it has already happened. And Sonic didn't even dodged that or use his hax abilities or anything. He got knocked to unconscious by the sleep gas. That doesn't prove anything about Sonic using the aforementioned hax abilities from the very start.
And I'm pretty sure the chemical plant thing got debunked somewhere, and I'm pretty sure Sonic ran through those gasses in that scene, not actually using his hax to deal with it or anything. Sonic trying to run through Mercer's gas would get him infected here.

Your argument kind of falls apart when Sonic didn't even "deal with" that gas attack properly.
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That's not the point. I'm providing evidence for the fact that Sonic has dealt with gas attacks in his games before. Therefore, I'm asserting the fact that if Alex uses his gas? Sonic will remember that time Eggman did something similar and counteract with his own abilities.

He's not going to let the gas envelop his body, he's going to become intangiable and invisible so that doesn't take an effect. Sonic could also LITERALLY slow down time and mop the floor with him with Violet Void. Alex being "human" doesn't matter, when he's a maniac that's trying to kill you at all costs. Sonic will win this decisively, he's got too many powers and abilities in his arsenal.
 
I think you just missed the goal post, mate we asked for an example of sonic using his hax against an average looking human you presented a giant purple man swining a golden weapon...A giant man he already been fighting thuse knew he was a threat. So yeah, the goal post was just a little to the left of where you kicked the ball
 
ShadowWarrior1999 said:
@DeathNoodles He has purple skin but otherwise his appearance does resemble that of a human. Don't try to move the goalposts.
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I can "move the goalposts" in this case.

Not only does he have purple skin, but his eyes colour doesn't even match a common human's eyes. And he even wields a weapon as well.

That doesn't resemble an "ordinary human" at all. Mercer's appearance is much closer to an ordinary human's than that character ever is.

And like Pen said, you haven't even provided an example of Sonic using his hax against ordinary-looking humans.
 
But sonic wont use them right away and if the gas touches him he dies...What else is there? He would dodge if he had the time and knowledge to do so but he doesn't know the gass exist until mercer releases it and before that alex looks like the average human. If the gas makes any contact sonic is broken down on the molecular level.
 
Godhand1999 said:
That's not the point. I'm providing evidence for the fact that Sonic has dealt with gas attacks in his games before. Therefore, I'm asserting the fact that if Alex uses his gas? Sonic will remember that time Eggman did something similar and counteract with his own abilities.

He's not going to let the gas envelop his body, he's going to become intangiable and invisible so that doesn't take an effect. Sonic could also LITERALLY slow down time and mop the floor with him with Violet Void. Alex being "human" doesn't matter, when he's a maniac that's trying to kill you at all costs. Sonic will win this decisively, he's got too many powers and abilities in his arsenal.
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Okay, show me a cutscene or on-screen feat of Sonic dodging or countering a gas attack this time. If he does, then your point would have merit in this case. If there isn't such, then I don't see why Sonic would even react like you said that he would against gasses, and would already be infected before he has a chance to retaliate properly. This isn't the case of gasses "spreading slowly", this is the case of "one second there is a guy, the next second all you can see are gasses everywhere".
 
DeathNoodles said:
Emissary From Hell said:
And if you want to argue Sonic wouldn't know Alex's ability is deadly, Sonic knows from experiences such as Eggman gassing him in SA1 that he is potentially vulnerable to gas, if Alex used a gas based attack and Sonic saw himself surrounded by it, he'd rely on something like Time Break to escape the situation.

Edit: I meant to quote VioletVoid's most recent comment.
Click to expand...
An experience that Sonic that ends up with him failing to react to or counter the gas attack... And I haven't seem him even dealing with such after that. Even the chemical plant scenario had him running through the chemical gasses rather than just countering it with his hax.
Click to expand...
That was the first time we had ever seen Sonic faced with such an attack. Sonic wouldn't simply forget he's vulnerable to gas based attacks and just do nothing when Alex uses his. He'd do just as he usually does when faced with tricky situations such as this, rely on his hax. Sonic was more than capable of withstanding Chemical Plant's chemicals, lol. Not to mention that pre-dates the events of SA1 and Sonic didn't have most of his hax abilities back then, and when he did get faced with Chemical Plant again in Generations, he already had prior experience of dealing with chemicals, so that point completely falls apart. Chemicals =/= Gas anyway. Unless Mercer can squirt out a liquid form of that gas, Sonic isn't going to just sit iddly by like a dope and let it happen.
 
DeathNoodles said:
Godhand1999 said:
Well, that "guy in a hoodie" is releasing deadly toxins and gases that can kill people. That "guy in a hoodie" also can chop off people's heads with his mutated form that he assumes. Alex is going to kill is he not? Then he's going to use his gases right? So, therefore once Sonic sees that happening then Sonic is going to use the wide variety of abilities in his arsenal to overcome the threat. It doesn't matter if Alex is a human, if it's a threat and the characters are going to kill? It shouldn't matter what speices the opponents are.

Sonic did not get defeated by Shadow in SA2. Sonic literally deduced what kind of hax he was using and then later on spammed the living crap out of it in his battle. He was never defeated in SA2, that's made up. If the gas gets close, then Sonic uses his color powers to become invisible and intangiable. Alex Mercer therefore can't see nor hurt Sonic's body, lol.

Because if Sonic sees the gases that are coming at him, Sonic isn't going to stand there silly and not utilize the abilities he has within his arsenal. You keep hogging on the argument on Sonic not using hax against a human looking character. It doesn't matter, both characters are required to kill each other in this match and while in character, one of them is going to die. Sonic has better abilities and overall hax compared to Mercer. 90% of the arguments in this thread relies on him either being a human or him using his gas.

Him being a human is irrelvant and the gas stuff can be easily countered. Sonic is winning here
Click to expand...
And how would Sonic even know any of this? Standard Battle Assumptions literally says that neither character has prior knowledge over the other, and Mercer has shown to gas from the very start even against uninfected fodder. And Sonic literally won't even see that happening until the gasses has already covered the entire area they're in. With speed equalised, Sonic isn't going to physically escape from that easily, and you didn't even provide examples on Sonic using the hax abilities to defeat human-looking enemies such as Alex Mercer. And it does matter when one character is outright portrayed to be cocky (them "not being stupid" doesn't change the fact that they're cocky") and when there isn't any proof that they used said hax against human fodders from the very start, especially when a majority of these humans are known to not be a threat in the Mobian world (Sonic-verse).
Yeah, I misworded it when I said Sonic got defeated by Shadow. What I meant to say was "Shadow has escaped from Sonic". That still doesn't change the fact that Sonic has only started deducing that Shadow has teleported after it has already happened. That means Sonic deducing things isn't going to be helpful when he doesn't even have the time to do so.

It does matter when CIS is viable in a match, Standard Battle Assumptions says that neither character has prior knowledge over the other (so Sonic wouldn't know that a hoodied human is going to be a threat just from looking at him, when he doesn't even know about the said hoodied human), and Sonic having better abilities and overall hax is irrelevant when you didn't even provide any cutscenes or on-screen feat of him using them against human-looking enemies.

So yes, Mercer looking like an ordinary human is relevant here.
Click to expand...
You keep going on AD-NAUSEAM about this repeated concept of "him being human so, it counts". No, it literally doesn't. Alex Mercer is a maniac and he's going to kill his opponent by any means. Sonic is not going to stand there and wait for stuff to happen, he processes information pretty quickly. A friend of mine already posted a video of Sonic using his Time Hax against Erazor Dijnn in this thread. If Sonic sees the gas, he becomes invisible, Alex can not see or hurt him, Time Hax, and then Violet Void. Dude literally gets bodied.

It doesn't matter. Sonic has already dealt with opponents who have unique abilities and techiques, if Sonic sees the gas being emitted from Alex. Sonic will think something is up, back away, and use his powers. It's that simple.

That's funny when that same hooded human is planning to kill him. Disregard this, it's kind of nonsensical. Him being a human has literally no merit to the conversation, when both characters are going to kill one another.

No it isn't.
 
An experience that Sonic that ends up with him failing to react to or counter the gas attack... And I haven't seem him even dealing with such after that. Even the chemical plant scenario had him running through the chemical gasses rather than just countering it with his hax.
That was the first time we had ever seen Sonic faced with such an attack. Sonic wouldn't simply forget he's vulnerable to gas based attacks and just do nothing when Alex uses his. He'd do just as he usually does when faced with tricky situations such as this, rely on his hax. Sonic was more than capable of withstanding Chemical Plant's chemicals, lol. Not to mention that pre-dates the events of SA1 and Sonic didn't have most of his hax abilities back then, and when he did get faced with Chemical Plant again in Generations, he already had prior experience of dealing with chemicals, so that point completely falls apart. Chemicals =/= Gas anyway. Unless Mercer can squirt out a liquid form of that gas, Sonic isn't going to just sit iddly by like a dope and let it happen.

Emissary From Hell said:
That was the first time we had ever seen Sonic faced with such an attack. Sonic wouldn't simply forget he's vulnerable to gas based attacks and just do nothing when Alex uses his. He'd do just as he usually does when faced with tricky situations such as this, rely on his hax. Sonic was more than capable of withstanding Chemical Plant's chemicals, lol. Not to mention that pre-dates the events of SA1 and Sonic didn't have most of his hax abilities back then, and when he did get faced with Chemical Plant again in Generations, he already had prior experience of dealing with chemicals, so that point completely falls apart. Chemicals =/= Gas anyway. Unless Mercer can squirt out a liquid form of that gas, Sonic isn't going to just sit iddly by like a dope and let it happen.
Click to expand...
Actually, Chemicals does = Gasses in most cases. Sonic wouldn't even know that there is something dangerous within them before it has already happened.

Okay, unless you give me a cutscene or on-screen feat of Sonic countering a gas attack again with his hax, I don't see why your point about Sonic "relying on his hax" to counter it.
 
The gass covers two hundred meters in less then two seconds. Its not some slowly spreading infection. One second nothing, the next the areas covered in gas.

Do the chemicals rip someon apart at the molecular level? No? Then Im not sure why the chemical plant matters

sonic was always resistant to chemicals so Im not sure what your point is... Experience doesn;t help when we haven't seen sonic dodge/deal with gas since then. Having experience doesn't help when two hundred meters are suddenly covered in a gas that breaks you down at the molecular level.
 
The pen or the sword said:
The gass covers two hundred meters in less then two seconds. Its not some slowly spreading infection. One second nothing, the next the areas covered in gas.
Do the chemicals rip someon apart at the molecular level? No? Then Im not sure why the chemical plant matters

sonic was always resistant to chemicals so Im not sure what your point is... Experience doesn;t help when we haven't seen sonic dodge/deal with gas since then. Having experience doesn't help when two hundred meters are suddenly covered in a gas that breaks you down at the molecular level.
Click to expand...
Nice, more than enough time for Sonic to use his abilities. Sonic is a fast character and he reacts to situations quickly. He becomes invisible and intangiable, lol.

Because Sonic has experience with dealing with deadly toxins and gas like attacks, therefore Sonic knows how to counteract this. You do realize Sonic can also slow down time? Alex is finished.
 
Godhand1999 said:
You keep going on AD-NAUSEAM about this repeated concept of "him being human so, it counts". No, it literally doesn't. Alex Mercer is a maniac and he's going to kill his opponent by any means. Sonic is not going to stand there and wait for stuff to happen, he processes information pretty quickly. A friend of mine already posted a video of Sonic using his Time Hax against Erazor Dijnn in this thread. If Sonic sees the gas, he becomes invisible, Alex can not see or hurt him, Time Hax, and then Violet Void. Dude literally gets bodied.

It doesn't matter. Sonic has already dealt with opponents who have unique abilities and techiques, if Sonic sees the gas being emitted from Alex. Sonic will think something is up, back away, and use his powers. It's that simple.

That's funny when that same hooded human is planning to kill him. Disregard this, it's kind of nonsensical. Him being a human has literally no merit to the conversation, when both characters are going to kill one another.

No it isn't.
Click to expand...
And SBA says that Sonic has no prior knowledge like Mercer does. How could even tell anything about Mercer just by glancing at him? The only thing he would see is a hoodied human standing there and then before he knows it, gasses are everywhere and he gets infected with speed equalised.

It does matter when many of the instances we've seen of Sonic deducting is when it applies to stuff that has already happened. Sonic would not have a chance to come back from this to deduce anything once he is already infected.

Yeah, and while Sonic is also willing to kill him via SBA, that doesn't say anything about Sonic immediately using his hax against what looks like a hooded human.

It does when all you've provided of "human-looking" enemies is one that doesn't even look like your average human.
 
Your right alex kill his opponent by any means! Alex has shown the ability to be patiant to wait for his prey to come to him. He's not liable to rush sonic when he simply needs sonic to get in range of his gassing abilities.

Speed equal mate, he manages to do that before the gas has touched him in any capacity. You keep saying he's finished, the vote count seems to disagree. Give me an example of sonic countering gas based attacks and you might have a leg to stand on, but the one example you gave showed sonic failing to react in time.
 
Godhand1999 said:
Nice, more than enough time for Sonic to use his abilities. Sonic is a fast character and he reacts to situations quickly. He becomes invisible and intangiable, lol.

Because Sonic has experience with dealing with deadly toxins and gas like attacks, therefore Sonic knows how to counteract this. You do realize Sonic can also slow down time? Alex is finished.
Click to expand...
Being "a fast character and reacting to situations quickly" is irrelevant when speed is equalised (which also includes reaction speed). Your point is moot in this case.

The only experience he has that is provided is him failing to deal with it. How would we even know that Sonic would even use his hax for such when all you provided is speculation?
 
ShakeResounding said:
I just wanna say that Sonic "not knowing something is dangerous" falls flat when his quills can sense danger and his sneezes warn him of it (not making that up, I'll find the scan).

Sonic FRA.
Click to expand...
If you can find a cutscene or on-screen example of such, then that would be helpful here. But if he doesn't actually make use of such, then it would also be irrelevant. Hope it proves that he actually makes use of it then.
 
DeathNoodles said:
An experience that Sonic that ends up with him failing to react to or counter the gas attack... And I haven't seem him even dealing with such after that. Even the chemical plant scenario had him running through the chemical gasses rather than just countering it with his hax.
Click to expand...
That was the first time we had ever seen Sonic faced with such an attack. Sonic wouldn't simply forget he's vulnerable to gas based attacks and just do nothing when Alex uses his. He'd do just as he usually does when faced with tricky situations such as this, rely on his hax.
Sonic was more than capable of withstanding Chemical Plant's chemicals, lol. Not to mention that pre-dates the events of SA1 and Sonic didn't have most of his hax abilities back then, and when he did get faced with Chemical Plant again in Generations, he already had prior experience of dealing with chemicals, so that point completely falls apart. Chemicals =/= Gas anyway. Unless Mercer can squirt out a liquid form of that gas, Sonic isn't going to just sit iddly by like a dope and let it happen.

Emissary From Hell said:
That was the first time we had ever seen Sonic faced with such an attack. Sonic wouldn't simply forget he's vulnerable to gas based attacks and just do nothing when Alex uses his. He'd do just as he usually does when faced with tricky situations such as this, rely on his hax. Sonic was more than capable of withstanding Chemical Plant's chemicals, lol. Not to mention that pre-dates the events of SA1 and Sonic didn't have most of his hax abilities back then, and when he did get faced with Chemical Plant again in Generations, he already had prior experience of dealing with chemicals, so that point completely falls apart. Chemicals =/= Gas anyway. Unless Mercer can squirt out a liquid form of that gas, Sonic isn't going to just sit iddly by like a dope and let it happen.
Click to expand...
Actually, Chemicals does = Gasses in most cases. Sonic wouldn't even know that there is something dangerous within them before it has already happened.
Okay, unless you give me a cutscene or on-screen feat of Sonic countering a gas attack again with his hax, I don't see why your point about Sonic "relying on his hax" to counter it.

Apples and oranges. Did Eggman douse Sonic in chemicals to knock him out in SA1? No, he used gas on him. Sonic doesn't have bad experiences with chemicals, he does with gas. So, unless Alex can use chemicals instead your point is moot. Sonic would just see him using gas, and knowing how dangerous gas based attacks can be, he'd rely on his hax to counter it.


You'd have to assume Sonic is extremely stupid and disregard all the other instances of Sonic learning from and being aware of his limitations, to just assume he would let himself be gassed and not do anything about it in spite of knowing the danger it poses. If Sonic was a moron, and there was plenty of evidence of him having tendencies to engage in similarly moronic behavior, maybe you'd have a point there, but since it's actually quite the opposite my point stands.
 
Not really you gave one example of a bad experience sonic had with gasses and then extrapolated he'd be able to deal with them now. Which isn't strong foundation to base your argument off... especially without on screen showings.

I dont think sonic would let himself, I think he wouldn't expect a wave of incredibly fast gas to emerge from the ordinary looking human.
 
Ecstasy Amphetamine said:
Godhand1999 said:
BTW.

Sonic also has resistance toward's existence erasure. Sonic's body shouldn't even be affected by Alex's powers.
Click to expand...
EE and matter hax are two different things, you can't scale them to each other since they harm you in different ways
Click to expand...
What? They are literally similar.

EE literally erases everything...including matter. Why wouldn't this count? EE erases your body completely, while Matter hax only erases your molecular strucutre. If you can resist EE, then your body shouldn't succumb to matter hax. Alex can't kill Sonic nor affect his molecular structure especially when Sonic can heal his body by vibrating his molecules. Sonic also was sucked into a black hole and also his body was durable enough to not only survive the gravitional pull, but he also did not get torn apart when he was inside of the black hole itself.
 
Unless Alex has some kind of special ability that can wipe you out of existence, then Sonic isn't getting affected. Also, surivivng the gravitional pull of a black hole>>>Alex's matter hax. All Alex could probably do is posion him, which isn't going to work as I've stated numerous counters for it.
 
Emissary From Hell said:
You'd have to assume Sonic is extremely stupid and disregard all the other instances of Sonic learning from and being aware of his limitations, to just assume he would let himself be gassed and not do anything about it in spite of knowing the danger it poses. If Sonic was a moron, and there was plenty of evidence of him having tendencies to engage in similarly moronic behavior, maybe you'd have a point there, but since it's actually quite the opposite my point stands.
Click to expand...
You've missed my point about chemicals = gasses in most cases, as they are literally create with chemicals even in real life.

Yes, Eggman has used gasses on him... Which Sonic has failed to react to, and doesn't seem to ever deal with such again after that.

That also doesn't change the fact that he ran through the chemical plant gasses as well. You may argue that Sonic may have known about the effects of the chemical plant gasses beforehand (that kind of doesn't prove anything about Sonic not being okay with gasses, since sleep gasses are chemicals). If you have provided a cutscene or on-screen examples of Sonic countering or dodging the gas attacks with hax, then your point would have merit, but since you didn't... I don't see why I should see why there is merit to such points.
 
The pen or the sword said:
So how does sonics danger sensing quils function, that could actually do something. Im gonna ignore the sneze as it's not on sonics profile.
Click to expand...
So if he gives you evidence of it you'd ignore it just because it isn't specifically mentioned on the profile? That makes no sense.
 
The pen or the sword said:
Not really you gave one example of a bad experience sonic had with gasses and then extrapolated he'd be able to deal with them now. Which isn't strong foundation to base your argument off... especially without on screen showings.
I dont think sonic would let himself, I think he wouldn't expect a wave of incredibly fast gas to emerge from the ordinary looking human.
Click to expand...
It is much more logical than simply assuming Sonic wouldn't react to it for... Whatever your reason is. Sonic's displays of intelligence and growth throughout the series support my premise.

Edit: Spelling errors.
 
No Id tell you to make a crt to have it added to the profile in the meantime Id take it under consideration. If it seemed like it'd make a massive difference Id go on hold/focus on other arguments until the crt was complete.
 
So if he gives you evidence of it you'd ignore it just because it isn't specifically mentioned on the profile? That makes no sense.

We only accept abilities or points about the characters with said ability if it is in the profile (or at least mentioned in the profile). If it isn't, then it isn't viable to use in Versus threads in most cases. That's how it works in this site. Ask a mod or staff if you them to confirm it.

And like Pen said, if you want said abilities to be in the characters' profile, then make a Content Revision Thread for it, or else it can't be used.
 
Not really, characters grow smarter/more powerful all the time, it doesn't mean they automatically are immune to being surpised. Sonic doesn't know theres a threat of gas until it's been released at wich point he is already infected.
 
Pulls out the popcorn, sits back and eats while the debate rages o
 
It is much more logical than simply assuming Sonic wouldn't react to it for... Whatever your reason is. Sonic's displays of intelligence and growth throughout the series support my premise.

Edit: Spelling errors.

We're not asking for portrayal, we're asking for feats and scans. If there isn't any, then it isn't a solid evidence of what abilities the characters should have or how they should act.
 
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