Alex Mercer vs Sonic

[ShadowWarrior1999]

So if he gives you evidence of it you'd ignore it just because it isn't specifically mentioned on the profile? That makes no sense.

We only accept abilities or points about the characters with said ability if it is in the profile (or at least mentioned in the profile). If it isn't, then it isn't viable to use in Versus threads in most cases. That's how it works in this site. Ask a mod or staff if you them to confirm it.

And like Pen said, if you want said abilities to be in the characters' profile, then make a Content Revision Thread for it, or else it can't be used.

It falls under extrasensory perception which Sonic does have on his profile so what you're telling me is pointless.

 

[DeathNoodles]

So if he gives you evidence of it you'd ignore it just because it isn't specifically mentioned on the profile? That makes no sense.

We only accept abilities or points about the characters with said ability if it is in the profile (or at least mentioned in the profile). If it isn't, then it isn't viable to use in Versus threads in most cases. That's how it works in this site. Ask a mod or staff if you them to confirm it.

And like Pen said, if you want said abilities to be in the characters' profile, then make a Content Revision Thread for it, or else it can't be used.

It falls under extrasensory perception which Sonic does have on his profile so what you're telling me is pointless.

Well, it is in his profile in regards to the quills. The Sneezing bit doesn't look like its mentioned anywhere in the profile though.

Now, provide me the feats/scans and scale of that ability.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

No his quills are on his profile, his sneeze ability should be added as well if he has one. I literally asked for clarification on the quills while ignoring the sneeze...

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Allright what danger have his quills sensed, that can make an actual difference here.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

No opinion on the match itself but a move being called "Soul ___" doesn't mean it resurrects from the soul. A name's just s name unless proven otherwise.

 

[Godhand1999]

You keep going on AD-NAUSEAM about this repeated concept of "him being human so, it counts". No, it literally doesn't. Alex Mercer is a maniac and he's going to kill his opponent by any means. Sonic is not going to stand there and wait for stuff to happen, he processes information pretty quickly. A friend of mine already posted a video of Sonic using his Time Hax against Erazor Dijnn in this thread. If Sonic sees the gas, he becomes invisible, Alex can not see or hurt him, Time Hax, and then Violet Void. Dude literally gets bodied.

It doesn't matter. Sonic has already dealt with opponents who have unique abilities and techiques, if Sonic sees the gas being emitted from Alex. Sonic will think something is up, back away, and use his powers. It's that simple.

That's funny when that same hooded human is planning to kill him. Disregard this, it's kind of nonsensical. Him being a human has literally no merit to the conversation, when both characters are going to kill one another.

No it isn't.

And SBA says that Sonic has no prior knowledge like Mercer does. How could even tell anything about Mercer just by glancing at him? The only thing he would see is a hoodied human standing there and then before he knows it, gasses are everywhere and he gets infected with speed equalised.
It does matter when many of the instances we've seen of Sonic deducting is when it applies to stuff that has already happened. Sonic would not have a chance to come back from this to deduce anything once he is already infected.

Yeah, and while Sonic is also willing to kill him via SBA, that doesn't say anything about Sonic immediately using his hax against what looks like a hooded human.

It does when all you've provided of "human-looking" enemies is one that doesn't even look like your average human.

Sonic can sense incoming danger with his quills, once he knows it's coming Sonic uses his abilities to counteract this.

He's not going to get infected when he's dealt with similar stuff in the past. Once he senses incoming danger, Sonic will use any of his abilities to kill Mercer.

Sonic has used hax against human looking people. He's fought Merlina and Erazor, all your arguments boil down to is how Erazor has "purple skin" or "eye color" like it makes any sense. Erazor Dijnn is a genie, he's literally got human proportions. He's got 5 fingers, two legs, and he's built like an olympian and he's tall like one too. To think that Erazor doesn't look "human" is due to a failure in eyesight, yes he uses magic but he's literally got a human like physique.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Shown in the intro of Sonic CD here, Sonic stops and sneezes moments before a Mountain collapses and rubble falls straight for him. It's a "blink and you miss it" moment, but here is a screenshot of it. It's also stated in promotional material that "Danger approaches and Sonic started sneezing".

 

[DeathNoodles]

Sonic can sense incoming danger with his quills, once he knows it's coming Sonic uses his abilities to counteract this.

He's not going to get infected when he's dealt with similar stuff in the past. Once he senses incoming danger, Sonic will use any of his abilities to kill Mercer.

Sonic has used hax against human looking people. He's fought Merlina and Erazor, all your arguments boil down to is how Erazor has "purple skin" or "eye color" like it makes any sense. Erazor Dijnn is a genie, he's literally got human proportions. He's got 5 fingers, two legs, and he's built like an olympian and he's tall like one too. To think that Erazor doesn't look "human" is due to a failure in eyesight, yes he uses magic but he's literally got a human like physique.

First off, why isn't the quills listed as Precognition (which is how most characters with danger sensing abilities operates in regards to sensing future dangers), and what is the feats of danger that ability has been used to sense?

Because Sonic sure did well sensing the danger of Eggman's gas attack there...

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

To what extent? What danger has he sensed before? when has it failed to protectect him? It didn't seem to save him from the sleep gas.

The one example you have of him dealing with it, is him failing to dodge/deal with it...

That dijin could not be mistaken for a human under any circumanstances, alex contrastly is indecipherable from the average human until he changes shape.

 

[DeathNoodles]

Shown in the intro of Sonic CD here, Sonic stops and sneezes moments before a Mountain collapses and rubble falls straight for him. It's a "blink and you miss it" moment, but here is a screenshot of it. It's also stated in promotional material that "Danger approaches and Sonic started sneezing".

Any other feats/scans of it?

Because it seems to me that it doesn't work against all surprise attacks, so I need you to provide more feats or scans of it.

 

[Emissary_From_Hell]

You've missed my point about chemicals = gasses in most cases, as they are literally create with chemicals even in real life.

Yes, Eggman has used gasses on him... Which Sonic has failed to react to, and doesn't seem to ever deal with such again after that.

That also doesn't change the fact that he ran through the chemical plant gasses as well. You may argue that Sonic may have known about the effects of the chemical plant gasses beforehand (that kind of doesn't prove anything about Sonic not being okay with gasses, since sleep gasses are chemicals). If you have provided a cutscene or on-screen examples of Sonic countering or dodging the gas attacks with hax, then your point would have merit, but since you didn't... I don't see why I should see why there is merit to such points.

I didn't, I simply pointed out they're irrelevant to this battle scenario. And that matters why exactly? Are you implying that since Sonic hasn't dealt with them since that means he'd forget the dangers gas pose to him? In spite of this being completely contradictory to the level of intelligence and ability to learn that Sonic has displayed in the series.

Show me an instance of Sonic directly going through gases in chemical plant. You most likely won't, because he only really deals with the chemicals. You could argue there's "gas all over" by virtue of it being a plant and all, but that's very different from gas based attacks or what Eggman did in SA1. Sonic got knocked out by sleep gas, if he sees an enemy trying to attack him with gas, he won't simply sit back and take it for no reason. That makes no sense whatsoever, what he would do is what he did against the Ifrit Golem, he needs to not let the gas get to him since he knows the threat it poses, and as such he'd stop time and get out of there. There is merit to such points because such points are backed up by a substantial amount of examples of Sonic reacting in effectively the same way in other instances. There is further merit when taking into consideration how silly the idea that Sonic would just sit back and let himself get gassed is.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

You keep saying sit back, the gas expands outwards at great speed. sonic has no feats of dealing with gas again, thus assuming he'll be able to react in time from a gas from a totally different and unexpected source is just not a fair assumption.

Now lets focus on precog the thing that may actually come into play depending on it's feats.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

About the Ifrit and time slow, didn't Sonic outright say that he needed Shahra's power to use the time break ability like that?

 

[Emissary_From_Hell]

You keep saying sit back, the gas expands outwards at great speed. sonic has no feats of dealing with gas again, thus assuming he'll be able to react in time from a gas from a totally different and unexpected source is just not a fair assumption.
Now lets focus on precog the thing that may actually come into play depending on it's feats.

Well, the precog thing may bust the premise that couldn't react to it entirely, so I'll let that play out for now.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

About the Ifrit and time slow, didn't Sonic outright say that he needed Shahra's power to use the time break ability like that?

In Sonic Generations Sonic can use Time Break without Shahra's ring.

 

[DeathNoodles]

I didn't, I simply pointed out they're irrelevant to this battle scenario. And that matters why exactly? Are you implying that since Sonic hasn't dealt with them since that means he'd forget the dangers gas pose to him? In spite of this being completely contradictory to the level of intelligence and ability to learn that Sonic has displayed in the series.

Show me an instance of Sonic directly going through gases in chemical plant. You most likely won't, because he only really deals with the chemicals. You could argue there's "gas all over" by virtue of it being a plant and all, but that's very different from gas based attacks or what Eggman did in SA1. Sonic got knocked out by sleep gas, if he sees an enemy trying to attack him with gas, he won't simply sit back and take it for no reason. That makes no sense whatsoever, what he would do is what he did against the Ifrit Golem, he needs to not let the gas get to him since he knows the threat it poses, and as such he'd stop time and get out of there. There is merit to such points because such points are backed up by a substantial amount of examples of Sonic reacting in effectively the same way in other instances. There is further merit when taking into consideration how silly the idea that Sonic would just sit back and let himself get gassed is.

I mean, since you mentioned that "gasses and chemicals are different" and that "Sonic doesn't have anything against chemicals and has experience with such" it is relevant here. Since that's what you mentioned, that also tells me that Sonic would mistaken Mercer's gasses for chemicals and then try to withstand it (which is a point you made). Because there is no way for Sonic to know that those gasses are diseases rather than chemicals until he starts doubling over and coughing.

I mean, I could've sworn that there are gasses in the chemical plants, but whatever. I am not going to find instances of that, so you had me there.

However, providing an example of a character failing to react or deal with something doesn't mean that they can do so when a similar type of it occurs when there isn't even a cutscene of such.

It's great that Sonic can can react in other instances, but we're not arguing about portrayal, we are arguing about feats and scans.

 

[DeathNoodles]

Well, the precog thing may bust the premise that couldn't react to it entirely, so I'll let that play out for now.

So, that would mean Sonic wouldn't be able to react to Mercer's gasses entirely with the danger sense then.

Okay.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Shadow. Yeah but that doesn't mean he'll have the same prowess he had with Shahra's ring.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Well watching over a video of the chemical zones in generations there is some smoke but sonic doesn't go through to many instances of that. Though Im left wandering why is the chemical plant seems designed for speedy parkouring hedgehog to get around?

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@Cal It slows time just like it does in Secret Rings. Plus it's not like Mercer resists any form of time manipulation.

 

[DeathNoodles]

It slows time just like it does in Secret Rings. Plus it's not like Mercer resists any form of time manipulation.

I know that we are repeating this for the umpteenth time, but please provide us feats/scans of Sonic using his aforementioned hax abilities against ordinary human-looking enemies. And please, don't give us or mention that purple-skinned giant character as an example, as that doesn't even look like an ordinary human by any means.

All we ask for is feats/scans, not speculation. That's it.

 

[Migue79]

So. Does this mean that our votes are invalid now?

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

To be clear, to set the goal post in cement. A non threatening average human looking character, that he has no expereince with.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Not really? None of there arguments have debunked or changed alex win con. You can change it if you want of course but nothings changed since the intial votes..

 

[DeathNoodles]

So. Does this mean that our votes are invalid now?

They didn't provide us any feats/scans or cutscenes of Sonic starting off with said hax against ordinary human-looking targets, and Sonic's danger quill sense doesn't even seem like its entirely reliable from what I can tell. I don't think these points have actually changed anything in regards to the votes for Mercer.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Shadow. I'm not denying that Time Break works like Time Break. I'm claiming that the ability without Shahra's influence slows Sonic down as well (aside from his perception) like it does in gameplay, as in order for him to get out of dodge with it against the Ifrit, he had to outright call on Shantae. Yes, I know what I said ovo.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@DeathNoodles Want me to play by that logic? When has Alex Mercer used gas against 3'3" blue hedgehogs?

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

never but he has used it against average mooks before and its one of his favorite moves.

He's not going to hold back, or avoid his hax, they are the first thing he uses in character, the same can't be said for sonic.

 

[DeathNoodles]

never but he has used it against average mooks before and its one of his favorite moves.

He's not going to hold back, or avoid his hax, they are the first thing he uses in character, the same can't be said for sonic.

^


@Shadow That shows that Mercer would use it against even fodder, ordinary human fodder that aren't a threat to him at all. When has Sonic start off with such hax against ordinary humans or human-looking targets that doesn't look like a threat to him at all? Heck, does he even start off with such hax abilities against targets that aren't a threat to him in any way?

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@Cal Time breaking slowing Sonic down is gameplay mechanics. He asked for Shahra's power to perform Time Break in the first place, it's just that in Sonic Generations he's no longer reliant on her to use it.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

The only time they've mentioned sonic using his hax against mooks is gameplay and even then enemies usually come in crowds in sonic.

 

[DeathNoodles]

The only time they've mentioned sonic using his hax against mooks is gameplay and even then enemies usually come in crowds in sonic.

So, none of them in the cutscenes/lore then?

Alright then.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

You kinda need to prove that without Shahra it's unrestricted time slow, man, and that without her assistance it's just game mechanics. Especially given Sega has no reason to provide that game mechanic as a limit when complete time stop with no restrictions is a concept they've put in games before. Point I'm truing to make is if Sega wanted it to be time low without Sonic slowing as well, they would've done so, because they have already done so.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@The pen or the sword @DeathNoodles A blue hedgehog isn't a human though, so no reason to assume he would try to use gas against him.

Plus I don't know why you two are acting like a gangster looking dude wouldn't appear threatening.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

He would appear threatening enough to a planet buster to pull out his hax? Good to know sonics weakness is the inner city! Sonics not going to take an average looking human (Slightly thuggish) As a serious threat without prior knowledge.

Our whole point is sonic doesn't indiscrimantly use his hax against unknown opponents that look like average humans. Alex always opens with his gas attack, regardless of the level of threat he believes his enemy to be.

 

[DeathNoodles]

@The pen or the sword @DeathNoodles A blue hedgehog isn't a human though, so no reason to assume he would try to use gas against him.

Plus I don't know why you two are acting like a gangster looking dude wouldn't appear threatening.

Well, Mercer did real fine infecting that ordinary civilian sleeping on the bench with his gases, so I don't see why he doesn't gas a blue hedgehog even if it looks like its completely harmless. If Mercer likes to gas even targets that aren't even dangerous in the least, I don't see why he can't do the same to Sonic.

A unarmed hooded looking guy looks nowhere near as threatening as as when that guy has a gun (in fact, most people do with a gun). And humans are a common occurrence in the Sonic-verse, and most of them aren't even a threat in the least to Sonic (or even most Mobians with superhuman abilities). I don't see why Sonic would think otherwise when he sees a hooded guy without any weapons at all. Mercer isn't the same character as Sonic or vice versa.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@Cal You're shifting the burden of proof.

You would have to prove that with Shara it's somehow better than the Time Break in Generations when that's never stated.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Thats really not how it works...If it has been shown to slow sonic without her assitance the burden of proof falls to you. You need to provide scans/evidence that show this time stop is unrestricted without assitance.

edit, just saying its not cals responsiblity to prove a negative.

 

[DeathNoodles]

Thats really not how it works...If it has been shown to slow sonic without her assitance the burden of proof falls to you. You need to provide scans/evidence that show this time stop is unrestricted without assitance.

edit, just saying its not cals responsiblity to prove a negative.

^

@Shadow especially since you're the one who claimed that it's just game mechanics, so the burden of proof falls to you to back up that claim, not someone else.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@The pen of the sword It slows Sonic in gameplay both with and without her assistance.

Also since you are adamant about abilities listed on the profile:

"Time Break: Sonic slows down the flow of time, bringing his surrounds and opponents to a nigh-halt and leaving them to his mercy. Contrary to popular belief, this technique does not actually slow down Sonic himself outside of gameplay."

So since it slowing Sonic is not on the profile, you can't use that as an argument.