Alduin VS Monika

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Ultima told me not to make Dovakhiin VS Monika, so I'm not going to make it.

Monika: 0

Aldui: 6

Inconclusive: 0

 

[Udlmaster]

Alduin for fighting Lorkhan and living.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

...Wait, what?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Shor =/= Lorkhan.

 

[Phoenix821]

Why does Alduin link to Monika and Monika link to Alduin?

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Why does Alduin link to Monika and Monika link to Alduin?

It was a joke that I wanted to see if anyone would notice

 

[Udlmaster]

Shor =/= Lorkhan.

Um?

It's even listen on his profile Lorkhan is Shor

"Name: None, called the The Void Ghost and branded with many names throughout history such as Lorkhan, LHKAN, Lorkhaj, Shor, Sep, Sheor, Shezarr, Talos, etc."

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Shor is an aspect of Lorkhan.

 

[Udlmaster]

Shor is an aspect of Lorkhan.

Since on the profile, they are listed under the same name and with there being no keys to show they are different.

So, unless the profile is wrong and needs further updates or Lorkhan and Shor share the same amount of power.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Shor is an aspect or lorkhan but not the other way around

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Shor is the Nordic Name for Lorkhan but because of how TES Cosmology works he actually became his own separate entity as an aspect of Lorkhan when he was sundered.

 

[Udlmaster]

Shor is the Nordic Name for Lorkhan but because of how TES Cosmology works he actually became his own separate entity as an aspect of Lorkhan when he was sundered.

So they are the same then...

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Shor is a Mirror of Lorkhan created by the Collective Mythopoeia of the Nords, he is an aspect but not Lorkhan himself.

Besides, he is getting his own profile anyway.

 

[Udlmaster]

Shor is a Mirror of Lorkhan created by the Collective Mythopoeia of the Nords, he is an aspect but not Lorkhan himself.
Besides, he is getting his own profile anyway.

So...

They are the same person...

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

No he's a small fragment of him. You're implying dovakhiin is high 1-B.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

>Says they are not the same

"Oh, they're the same"

>Explains in detail why they're not the same

"Oh, they are the same"

 

[Schnee_One]

Aspect isn't the same person at all.

Aspect is a much smaller degree of said person and it doesn't mean they are the same level of power.

 

[Udlmaster]

The person in the mirror is me.

My DNA is still me.

My fingers are still a part of me.

Also, Matt, "Gone into detail how they're different" you objectively proved yourself wrong by stating:

"Shor is the Nordic Name for Lorkhan"

Like, boi.

 

[Schnee_One]

By this logic, your fingers are as strong as yourself

 

[Udlmaster]

By this logic, your fingers are as strong as yourself

No need to strawman, I never said they were as strong as Lorkhan in that comment

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Dude...

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Shor is the Nordic Name of Lorkhan, yes. But due to the collective perception of the Nords, he became his own independent shard-entity. He is not literally Lorkhan as a whole, he is Lorkhan as perceived by the Nords. The fact he is a human-sized dude with a literal throne in Sovngarde already proves he isn't the same being as Lorkhan, who is a 100% Abstract Spirit which pervades across the whole Aurbis and exists at its apex.

Also

"I never said they were as strong as Lorkhan"

unless the profile is wrong and needs further updates or Lorkhan and Shor share the same amount of power.
	~ Udlmaster 2017​

 

[Schnee_One]

But you're entire argument is saying Shor is Lorkhan by being an aspect and as the reason why you even voted Alduin

That's also not what a Strawman is, If Im wrong, that's putting words in your mouth

 

[Udlmaster]

Shor is the Nordic Name of Lorkhan, yes. But due to the collective perception of the Nords, he became his own independent shard-entity. He is not literally Lorkhan as a whole, he is Lorkhan as perceived by the Nords. The fact he is a human-sized dude with a literal throne in Sovngarde already proves he isn't the same being as Lorkhan, who is a 100% Abstract Spirit which pervades across the whole Aurbis and exists at its apex.
Also

"I never said they were as strong as Lorkhan"

unless the profile is wrong and needs further updates or Lorkhan and Shor share the same amount of power.
	~ Udlmaster 2017​

However, which came first?

The fight with Shor or the Nords?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It doesn't matter because every version of the Dawn Era and the Creation Myth is equally true.

Including the Nordic One where Shor did battle with Alduin.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Shor was created retroactively, it isn't that hard to understand. Nevermind that Gods are Timeless beings beyond linearity, so using "who came first" as an argument is nonsensical.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

" Acausality (Type 4; Dragons are not born nor hatched, they simply are, being eternal, immortal, unchanging, and unyielding"


Isn't this type 5?

 

[Phantasys]

The gods of ES can't really be considered limbs or fingers. It's all about perspective, it's kind of like the duck or rabbit picture. The -evil- elves see Lorkhan as a trickster and a conman, while nords see Shor as an honorable martyr and god-king. It's still ultimately the same being, but the elves see "duck" and the nords see "rabbit".

 

[StarSlayer666]

What does it means if I am an "aspect" of a being? What's an aspect?

 

[Elizhaa]

What does it means if I am an "aspect" of a being? What's an aspect?

They have Abstract Existence (Type 1)

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I like how this turned into a debate on Alduin scaling to Lorkhan instead of actually talking about the matchup.

I'm not entirely sure if Alduin can put down Monika for good given that she can exist without her file in the game, and I'm not entirely sure if Monica can affect Alduin due to Acausality, Abstract, and regen.

Would Alduin eating the entire universe/game count as a win?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Worth pointing out that the stuff Alduin eats are erased from time.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Monika has time paradox immunity

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Monika has time paradox immunity

I don't see acausality on her profile, which she honestly should have from what I remember of Doki Doki.

That wouldn't help her either way though. Alduin would eat all of time across the entire universe; which would kill most Low 2-C characters that can't yeet out of the universe like Alduin. She would be erased across all points in time, as well as everything else in the universe if Alduin goes all out.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Monika quiet litirally erases the whole game as an opening after the ending. She does if you try to restore it without reuploading the game anyways.

And her erasure also erases from all of time.


So yes, she can survive without the game.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Then this is probably incon unless Alduin moves to reality warp her into incapacitation, which isn't likely due to her other abilities. More times than not Alduin erases the entire universe without even noticing Monika due to his resistances, and after that they sort of can't interact.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Yeah, incon fra.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

This is what happens when something gets eaten by Alduin:

And then Alduin looked hard into the eyes of both the Greedy Man (far away) and the Leaper Demon King (close up), one of them for each eye of his own, and he knew it was so. These two spirits gulped big, and were caught.
"Oh crap," the Greedy Man said, "He knows my bargain with the king of leapers, I'd better hide under my mountain!" but he thought and said all this too fast and, without thinking, hid under his mountain even though its base had already been eaten and so it wasn't all still there. (This is how the Greedy Man became trapped both in and outside of kalpas.)
(...)
"The Greedy Man has already f*cked himself up good, hiding inside something that didn't exist anymore, but you: you I curse right here and right now! I take away your ability to jump and jump and jump and doom you to [the void] where you will not be able to leave except for auspicious days long between one and another and even so only through hard, hard work. And it will be this way, my little corner cutter, until you have destroyed all that in the world which you have stolen from earlier kalpas, which is to say probably never at all!"
- The Seven Fights of the Aldudagga

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Can he eat something that doesn't, and never has existed?

If nit it doesn't really matter.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yes.