Akuto Sai Downgrade

[ImmortalDread]

I mean, I was against it long ago, until I read the blog carefully and saw the reasoning and understood why it is high.
He can create all possible stories, including those with infinite hierarchies. And those are just equally stories to him.

“I see. It’s a thought experiment where you assume a world where anything is possible and thus say anything logically feasible can happen.” “Yes. In other words, anything that can be described in text can happen. That also tells us the limits of this world: anything that cannot be described cannot happen.” everything logically feasible can happen in the stories

For example, the two statements “an elephant flew through the sky” and “Hitler visited Paris in the year 2000 AD” were both impossible in reality, but they worked in writing. If elephants were flying creatures and if Hitler had not died, they could occur even in reality. They were true in a world that could have been. In that case, it became clear that near infinite possibilities were contained within the world. They could even be seen as existing as infinite parallel worlds. “You will create all of those logically possible worlds,”

 

[The_Emperor4th]

If this is really the same thread and argument as before and it has been denied by the experts. Then, I disagree with the thread.

 

[Darksmash]

I mean, I was against it long ago, until I read the blog carefully and saw the reasoning and understood why it is high.
He can create all possible stories, including those with infinite hierarchies. And those are just equally stories to him.

Dumb baseless NLF.
Law of identity is also a logical thing, so he can recreate it even though it transcends him?

 

[LuciferX]

Dumb baseless NLF.
Law of identity is also a logical thing, so he can recreate it even though it transcends him?

Exactly.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I did not understand your sentence at all.

 

[AKUTO123]

so yes, basically, after quoting the places on the blog and saying that this is wrong or why, it is not much different from the previous topic, the blog is an answer to everything said.

 

[Darksmash]

I did not understand your sentence at all.

The argument is literally just "He can create all possible worlds and because hierarchies are possible he can create them"

So I said that the law of identity that transcends him is also a logical thing, but can he recreate something that transcends him?

 

[ImmortalDread]

I don't get it again. What do you mean by logical thing.

 

[Darksmash]

I don't get it again. What do you mean by logical thing.

The only argument for his stories to include "infinite hierarchies" is that infinite hierarchies are a logical possibility in the verse so he should be able to recreate it. I demonstrated that it's NLF by saying that law of identity is also obviously a possibility in the verse but he cannot create something that transcends him.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I have no clue how you connected those two dots. Where did it say that infinite hierarchy is a simple possibility?

 

[Vasco]

I mean, I was against it long ago, until I read the blog carefully and saw the reasoning and understood why it is high.
He can create all possible stories, including those with infinite hierarchies. And those are just equally stories to him.

Near-infinite possibilities and infinite parallel worlds aren't this just 2-A, plus I no see no mention of infinite hierarchies.

 

[Darksmash]

I have no clue how you connected those two dots. Where did it say that infinite hierarchy is a simple possibility?

So where did you connect the dot that Akuto can create infinite hierarchies?

 

[ImmortalDread]

Law of identity is also a logical thing, so he can recreate it even though it transcends him?

It wouldn't be if you didn't assume a false implication.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Infinite Hierarchy comes literally from here

“I see. It’s a thought experiment where you assume a world where anything is possible and thus say anything logically feasible can happen.” “Yes. In other words, anything that can be described in text can happen. That also tells us the limits of this world: anything that cannot be described cannot happen.” everything logically feasible can happen in the stories

For example, the two statements “an elephant flew through the sky” and “Hitler visited Paris in the year 2000 AD” were both impossible in reality, but they worked in writing. If elephants were flying creatures and if Hitler had not died, they could occur even in reality. They were true in a world that could have been. In that case, it became clear that near infinite possibilities were contained within the world. They could even be seen as existing as infinite parallel worlds. “You will create all of those logically possible worlds,”

in this case "all logically possible worlds" >>>>> Infinite worlds infinite worlds could very well be infinite space-time continuums (2-A)

It is not "infinite bla bla"

Invalid, It's clearly mentioned that even if the chain continues endlessly, the Law Of Identity would still be the origin and thus not included.

But what if the world were someone’s dream? That answer was also simple. The world was created by the storyteller known as the Law of Identity. Then what was the world? The world was fiction. But at the same time, the world was an absolute truth from inside that fiction. From the outside, it was fiction. From the inside, it was truth. What if one tried viewing the world as fictional from the outside perspective? How did the world come to be? Rejecting all but the Law of Identity would leave yourself facing the one Law of Identity all alone. That would be one origin. It was possible the one having the dream lived in a world that was itself the dream of someone in another world that was again someone else’s dream, but even if that chain continued back infinitely, one specific origin could be found by facing that one Law of Identity.

It clearly mentions here that it's possible, specifically in the: "It was possible the one having the dream lived in a world that was itself the dream of someone in another world that was again someone else's dream, but even if that chain continued back infinitely, one specific origin could be found by facing the one Law of Identity."

 

[Vasco]

Infinite Hierarchy comes literally from here

How does near infinite possibilities = infinite hierarchy? Or all logical possible worlds = infinite hierarchies?

It clearly mentions here that it's possible, specifically in the: "It was possible the one having the dream lived in a world that was itself the dream of someone in another world that was again someone else's dream, but even if that chain continued back infinitely, one specific origin could be found by facing the one Law of Identity."

So it trials back to TLOI in a H-1B hierarchy? Anyways I don't really care about demon king diamao.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Asking authors power level questions on twitter should be a bannable offense and I'm not even kidding.

 

[Darksmash]

Infinite Hierarchy comes literally from here


in this case "all logically possible worlds" >>>>> Infinite worlds infinite worlds could very well be infinite space-time continuums (2-A)


Invalid, It's clearly mentioned that even if the chain continues endlessly, the Law Of Identity would still be the origin and thus not included.

It clearly mentions here that it's possible, specifically in the: "It was possible the one having the dream lived in a world that was itself the dream of someone in another world that was again someone else's dream, but even if that chain continued back infinitely, one specific origin could be found by facing the one Law of Identity."

Did you really just copy paste what someone said on discord without any kind of reflection or thought?

In that case I will copy paste my response:

1) That has no connection to what I said
2) The hierarchy mentioned in that paragraph is downwards in another translation, so unless you can bring the actual raws it's invalid

It clearly mentions here that it's possible, specifically in the: "It was possible the one having the dream lived in a world that was itself the dream of someone in another world that was again someone else's dream, but even if that chain continued back infinitely, one specific origin could be found by facing the one Law of Identity."

This has no connection to the possibilities that Akuto creates. And it also mentions the LOI as part of said thought experiment, so the scope of this "possibility" exceeds the ontology of Akuto on a fundamental level.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Asking authors power level questions on twitter should be a bannable offense and I'm not even kidding.

high 1-A comes not even from twitter

 

[LuciferX]

Invalid, It's clearly mentioned that even if the chain continues endlessly, the Law Of Identity would still be the origin and thus not included.

It says IF world is someone's dream of someone else's dream, the origin would be TLOI but we know it was created by TLOI directly and world isn't someone's dream itself, and dream of someone else.

this easily debunks that claim.

 

[Vasco]

Now sounds like all dreams come from TLOI

 

[Lormac_CC]

This verse is messed up due to how things are taken out of context. Personally the verse should be High 1-B. The dream Hierarchy doesn't exists. It was an assumption. The law of identity is High 1-B because even if a Hierachy does exists, she would still be on top of that Hierarchy. The idea that Akuto created worlds containing entire Hierarchy is kind of interesting but I don't believe anything like that happened as the story he exists in doesn't have a Hierachy. So high 1-B for the verse

 

[Robo432343]

Bro is trying to debunk every single verse and is failing horribly

 

[DontTalkDT]

On my phone so I can't write long replies. So let me reject the OP in as few text as possible.

The first quote you try to attack is not the reasoning for the characters rankings, but supportive evidence at best. Since you don't adress the reason the characters are ranked as they are, but essentially a strawman, your argument holds no weight.

The second is ignorance of how the tiering system works. A character does not have to transcend an infinite hierarchy. It only needs to theoretically be able to do so. (e.g. if a character erases the hierarchy beneathe them it does not get weaker)
TLOI is explicitely stated to be able to transcend the dream hierarchy, so its existence holds no relevance.

 

[Darksmash]

This verse is messed up due to how things are taken out of context. Personally the verse should be High 1-B. The dream Hierarchy doesn't exists. It was an assumption. The law of identity is High 1-B because even if a Hierachy does exists, she would still be on top of that Hierarchy. The idea that Akuto created worlds containing entire Hierarchy is kind of interesting but I don't believe anything like that happened as the story he exists in doesn't have a Hierachy. So high 1-B for the verse

The hierarchy might be infinite downwards btw. So it might not be high 1-B.

 

[Lormac_CC]

The hierarchy might be infinite downwards btw. So it might not be high 1-B.

The raws could help but if the raws also supports the downwards claim, then I guess High 1-B isn't a thing

 

[DontTalkDT]

The hierarchy might be infinite downwards btw. So it might not be high 1-B.

It definitely isn't from the context of those scenes being about how the world they are in is fictional to some other being.

 

[ImmortalDread]

On my phone so I can't write long replies. So let me reject the OP in as few text as possible.

The first quote you try to attack is not the reasoning for the characters rankings, but supportive evidence at best. Since you don't adress the reason the characters are ranked as they are, but essentially a strawman, your argument holds no weight.

The second is ignorance of how the tiering system works. A character does not have to transcend an infinite hierarchy. It only needs to theoretically be able to do so. (e.g. if a character erases the hierarchy beneathe them it does not get weaker)
TLOI is explicitely stated to be able to transcend the dream hierarchy, so its existence holds no relevance.

Can the thread be closed? It is same like before.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that it can be closed, yes.

 

[Lormac_CC]

I do plan to make a thread on the Dream Hierarchy.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Alright, I will close it then.
To be clear: Downgrade threads can of course be made. But if so I would like the OP to have read the explanation page and the links on there in their entirety and addressed all the arguments given there in the opening post, instead of addressing only one side argument.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Alright, I will close it then.
To be clear: Downgrade threads can of course be made. But if so I would like the OP to have read the explanation page and addressed the arguments given there in their entirety in the opening post, instead of addressing only one side argument.

Before this may I ask a question?