Ainz vs Zeref

[DragonEmperor23]

That's like saying Ainz won't get oneshot by Zeref's punch because he resists dying instantly. Death Manipulation is not Soul Manipulation. When you are not effected by something, it is not the spell failing, it is called Resistance.

 

[Moritzva]

So let's think about this battle.

Battle starts, Ainz Grasps Heart, since of course he will. Zeref is hit, likely first since Ainz can do it at the speed of thought. Zeref is stunned, Ainz is surprised. He'll likely use a spell like Perfect Unknowable, activate his Aura of Despair, or teleport away to cast TGOALID. A majority of what he does from here, well, Zeref is ******. If he teleports away, Zeref won't be able to find him fast enough while the spell casts, and any Time Stop will just be wasted. If he gets too close, Aura kills him. Perfect Unknowable will only make it even harder for him to find Ainz.

The best way for Zeref to win is to start blasting everything, which isn't extremely likely overall.

I give this to Ainz around 65 times out of 100.

 

[Moritzva]

Also, you've convinced me Speed Equal is fair here, too.

Quite simply, Soul Manip. has, in all your examples, proved to be more of a byproduct or side effect of his death magic. Kills you, takes your soul. I haven't seen any time the death magic is completely exists yet they still lose their soul.

I vote Ainz.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

You're saying it's a two step process? Can you prove that? I said that it was a simultaneous effect.

 

[Moritzva]

All your examples have it only working when the death manipulation works too. It's even described as something done as a part of Death Magic.

The burden of proof is on you that it can function without it's Death counterpart and when they resist Death.

 

[Moritzva]

Although if you need an example, iirc, when Natsu first came Upon Zeref during the S-Class Trials, he was hit while not in Dragon Force, and the scarf took the blow, resisting the instant death perfectly. Moreso another example of instant death resistance taking care of the whole spell.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Yes, because it's all part of the same magic. There are no examples of it working without death manipulation because the only people that resist the death manipulation also resist the soul manipulation. The burden of proof isn't on me because it's your claim that you're making. You're saying Zeref has to kill something with the death manipulation to use the soul manipulation on it.

 

[Moritzva]

Because he's killing people to take their souls, not killing them by taking their souls.

The argument that death magic would affect someone with death resistance is nonsensical.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

No. That's not how it works. The magic takes their souls and then they die. The argument that death manipulation resistance lets you resist attacks that steal your soul is worse.

 

[Belyompusct]

Soul manip is probably gonna fail on Ainz alongside with death magic. Ainz's race is undead which has the same racial properties in-verse as automatons, i.e constructs or inanimate objects. Robots are standardly treated as soulless beings in this wiki.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

You would have to prove he doesn't have a soul. You can't equate Ainz to an automaton because he isn't a construct or an inanimate objects. For robots being standardly treated as souless, there's a big difference between an undead and a robot. Robots are beings made out of metal that run on code. Even then there are robots with souls.

 

[Jugger47]

Depending on how the resurrection works, the Death Magic that ages things+takes their souls might not let him revive.

Resurrection in Overlord completely restores ones soul even from destruction as seen from Gagaran and Tia whom had their soul completely destroyed by Demiurge but still were resurrected with low tier resurrection.

And removing ones soul is weaker than destroying ones. So Ainz self resurrection still works.

 

[Jugger47]

Even then there are robots with souls.

That is an outlier

This is looking more and more in Ainz favor.

 

[Schnee_One]

A robot being stated to have a soul is an outlier?

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Resurrection in Overlord completely restores ones soul even from destruction as seen from Gagaran and Tia whom had their soul completely destroyed by Demiurge but still were resurrected with low tier resurrection.

And removing ones soul is weaker than destroying ones. So Ainz self resurrection still works.

I agree that that it wouldn't stop him from resurrecting, but soul destruction and soul stealing both result in the target not having a soul, they're just comparable uses of soul manipulation.

 

[Jugger47]

A robot being stated to have a soul is an outlier?

Yes, but looking back on what Belyompusct I don't really see comparison Robots like CZ and Undead like Ainz being totally similar in Overlord, so either way I don't see the point.

Belyompusct would you explain what you mean?

 

[Jugger47]

I see them both trying out their own death spells, which then fails and Despair Aura coming out to induce madness and insanity or reality slash, either of which secure the win for Ainz. And to top it off Ainz still has his resurrection.

I vote Ainz.

 

[Jugger47]

I kind of don't like this match up though, just saying.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Zeref's death magic won't fail though. He resists Ainz's standard grasp heart but Ainz gets killed by a death pillar and then gets killed again when he revives.

 

[Jugger47]

Zeref's death magic won't fail though. He resists Ainz's standard grasp heart but Ainz gets killed by a death pillar and then gets killed again when he revives.

You said it relies on soul removing? Souls are destroyed in Overlord by mobs like Soul Eaters all the time and they apparently never worked on level 100 players, meaning Ainz is supposed to have Soul Manip resistance.

We need to make a CRT for this on his profile though. Otherwise demiurge could just one shot ainz with a single hellfire...lol

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Yeah, something that important should be added.

 

[Moritzva]

Yea, a quick CRT for soul resistance to Overlord characters actually makes quite a bit of sense, or else Demiurge is single-handedly capable of killing the entire tomb with friggin' hellfire.

 

[Jugger47]

Yea, a quick CRT for soul resistance to Overlord characters actually makes quite a bit of sense, or else Demiurge is single-handedly capable of killing the entire tomb with friggin' hellfire.

CRT here

Its already accepted by 4 people.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Now that Ainz is getting soul manip resistance, this can be closed as a stomp. The stomp qualifications are being rewritten to be that a match is a stomp if a character can't win against another character not matter what they do. Zeref's only win condition here is being able to kill Ainz twice with punches. This is just completely impossible and unrealistic. The moment the fight starts, I've heard people argue that Ainz starts with Graspheart and this makes sense to me from what I've heard is in character. So Graspheart fails and since Ainz is paranoid he's not going to let Zeref hit him with his death magic and will Teleport away with his Planetary range. Then he grabs a World Item and comes back to Existence Erase/Reality Warp/insert durability negating hax to instantly kill Zeref. Zeref can't win here because Ainz has thought based teleportation and is cautious enough to not let Zeref get near him ever. This is not decisive, this is a stomp fight that Zeref has no capabilities of winning. Not only that but fights can be considered stomp matches because of amounts of abilities like Communist Superman vs Doctor Doom. That match is a stomp because even though they're in the same tier, DD has a wall of hax and Superman has almost nothing. Meanwhile, Ainz has walls of hax for days and the only combat applicable thing Zeref has is resisted by Ainz. Not only that but if by some miracle Zeref gets close enough to land a punch, all Ainz has to do is think and Zeref gets madness manipped.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

How is it a stomp? Zeref has no problems punching people and can use any of his magics to hit Ainz and kill him. Ainz doesn't have access to WCI since Nazarick doesn't exist in the place they are fighting and most of that stuff is in the hands of other people meaning he couldn't get it anyway. Ainz only has TGoALiD to win while Zeref needs to tag twice. When GH failed on something, Ainz stood there and took hits from the survivor for the lols so he isn't instantly teleporting away.

 

[Jugger47]

Ainz only has TGoALiD to win while Zeref needs to tag twice. When GH failed on something, Ainz stood there and took hits from the survivor for the lols so he isn't instantly teleporting away.

So in your opinion Ainz is going to just stand there and let a target who just resisted GH hit him...Completely wrong....

This has happened before on a beast-kin. He instantly went into serious mode and reality slashed her.

From the wiki as I cannot be bothered to find quotes right now.

Volume 13

As Remedios and the militiamen left, Ainz is frustrated by her action without showing gratitude for helping her. He thought they will fight together or politely leave them to him, but instead he was being treated rudely and dumping it all on to him. Annoyed by this, Ainz uses a death spell and instantly killed Vijar and Halisha with the exception of Nasrene. Seeing the demi-human had resisted by his death spell, Ainz takes cautious and let his opponent attack first, but only for demi-human's attack nullified and immediately killing her with Reality Slash.

And it was after he noticed the opponent was weak.

Either way though, I don't like this match up in the slightest as well...its Ainz again and its someone who uses death spells too. So im out.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

So in your opinion Ainz is going to just stand there and let a target who just resisted GH hit him...Completely wrong....
Volume 13

Seeing the demi-human had resisted by his death spell, Ainz takes cautious and let his opponent attack first, but only for demi-human's attack nullified and immediately killing her with Reality Slash.

And it was after he noticed the opponent was weak.

GH failed, Ainz stood there, he got hit.

Explain how it doesn't line up with what I said? The only difference is that Zeref doesn't get nullified.

 

[DeathNoodles]

Clairvoyance and Information Analysis. Once Ainz gauges Zeref's magical/physical strength (which is definitely in-character for him to do as he tends be to very cautious), he would definitely not let Zeref get close to him.

I'm not voting for anyone here yet, but I'm just here to say that there is a way for Ainz to gauge his opponent's strength and strategise from there.

 

[Akreious]

So in your opinion Ainz is going to just stand there and let a target who just resisted GH hit him...Completely wrong....
Volume 13

Seeing the demi-human had resisted by his death spell, Ainz takes cautious and let his opponent attack first, but only for demi-human's attack nullified and immediately killing her with Reality Slash.

And it was after he noticed the opponent was weak.

GH failed, Ainz stood there, he got hit.
Explain how it doesn't line up with what I said? The only difference is that Zeref doesn't get nullified.

Another difference is Ainz has self-resurrection.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

And Zeref will be right next to him/in range when he rezzes. He just dies again.

 

[Akreious]

You seem to be completely favouring Zeref and treating Ainz as if he's inept...?

Why would Ainz let the same thing happen again when he has an instanteous teleportation spell...?

 

[PaChi2]

Ainz's win conditions:

Black Hole.

Despair Aura.

TGoALiD.

 

[Akreious]

Hey, wouldn't Timestop also be a great option?

Even if time *didn't* stop for Zeref, Silent Timestop makes it so no attacks works until the Timestop ends. While this would make him also unable to attack, it'd be a pretty good stalling spell since they'd basically just be staring at eachother until the spell ended.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

@Akreious

And Zeref can just instantaneously hit the guy who is rezzing.

I'm favoring Zeref because he can one shot with anything that isn't his death magic that he won't use on a skeleton. Ainz isn't inept, he's outclassed.

@Pachi

Zeref is already mad, resists empathic manipulation and the potential instant death. Black hole fails against the much higher durability.

 

[PaChi2]

Black hole is bfr, what.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

BFR to where? I was under the impression it just crushed them to "nothing".

 

[DeathNoodles]

Presumably BFR to an unknown place. Similar to abilities from characters like Vanilla Ice.

Also, Black Hole fails against higher durability. What.

 

[DeathNoodles]

Ainz's win conditions:

Black Hole.

Despair Aura.

TGoALiD.

Don't forget about Hellflame, which can overcome Zeref's Regenerationn.

 

[PaChi2]

BFR to where? I was under the impression it just crushed them to "nothing".

I mean. Even going by the deffinition in the wiki:

Black Hole: A spell that cast a void would absorb the enemy inside.

Pseudo-black holes that only cast a something that s u c c s are assumed to bfr unless proven that they did crush someone with gravity.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Fair enough on the Black Hole. Wher does the regen negation come from? I looked through his spells and none of them mention stopping regen.