Adding the Standard Format for Teams

[The_Impress]

Or should teams be purely made out of wiki-relevant combatants without any assorted, miscellaneous fodder?

This part, I have future plans to re-list Civilization pages as "Organization" ones to ensure non-wiki relevant character groupings also get accounted for better.

Distinction between Civilization and Teams are touched on upon within the format itself, it is with respect to the quantity of "unnotable members" within the group, and I don't believe a fixed number should be put, it's better case-by-case.

 

[The_Impress]

Essentially I'd say that the number of unnotable members should far overpower the notable ones for it to no longer be a team, and would be akin to an organization.

In terms of what it is in respect to current standards, it depends on what we defined as the lower limit of our current Civilization format page

 

[Promestein]

Alright, fine by me.

 

[Colonel_Krukov]

Seems okay to me

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, I was also going to mention that the Civilizations format also worked for things like "Alien Swarms" or "Colonies" despite not technically being civilizations in the general sense. And things that separate civilizations from teams is case by case; this includes quantity of minor/nameless characters or non-notable characters, existence of authority classes and/or evolutionary stages for certain fictional races, and divisions of field categories.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I'm not opposed to this, however the P&A part does feel bloated if we put in the P&A of every unique member. Perhaps just the tiers and the links to the individuals of the team? Tiers would be fine since most teams share tiers anyway, sans one or two particularly special members.

 

[The_Impress]

I'm not opposed to this, however the P&A part does feel bloated if we put in the P&A of every unique member. Perhaps just the tiers and the links to the individuals of the team? Tiers would be fine since most teams share tiers anyway, sans one or two particularly special members.

This is what is already done in the format tho :V

I'll make the Team Resources description more concise, hold up, because a couple of people have made this mistake.

 

[KieranH10]

The template looks good and I can see that a lot of work has gone into it. However I don't really see a point in this being a thing honestly.

We already allow team up battles for Versus Threads anyways, which we support and even allow to be added to profiles.
We also already create Duo profiles (for some reason, granted I disagree with these to a degree)

What is on that profile that cannot be given to the individual character profiles involved? If each and every member on the team should have a full Profile anyways, wouldn't that make this kinda pointless? I also believe that forcing the creation of Character Profiles to allow a team to be created could lead to poorly written character profiles by users who just wanted to make a team in some cases.

• "Team abilities" would almost always stem from a combination of the individuals abilities, which can obviously simply be added to the character profiles as their own abilities.

I also have a few questions regarding the Format itself:

• What happens to the likes of Mundane teams or those that are teams of generally similar characters? What's preventing a user from creating a Team Profile for a Fortnite Squad? and how would the profile work if that was allowed, as there would be no definitive "Leader", there would be only a select few "Team Abilities", and there would not be a "Base of Operations", leaving a very bland profile in cases like this.
  • Hell, what would be the point in profiles for the Ninja Turtles, or the Furious 5 from Kung Fu Panda, there are dozens of prominent teams in fiction that would have incredibly bland profiles because despite being a team, their abilities and interesting features come from the individuals in 90% of the cases.
• Wouldn't giving Tiers and Statistics of each character in the team clog up almost every profile? and if we weren't giving the Tier of each character on the team aren't we missing out critical information about a large majority of the team in most cases?
  • Also, if we did give the tiers to each character, then again, why don't we just stick with multiple Character Profiles?
  • The format mentions "Both the strongest and weakest members" but wouldn't this completely ignore those in-between, and force users to look at their Character Profiles instead?
• What about teams with a lot of incarnations? The Avengers for instance has had dozens of prominent incarnations in the past, each with different members and leaders, as has the Justice League, and more. Would these be Keys? Separate Profiles? Or would Team Profiles be composited?
• How would we treat Outliers for Teams relevant to the characters involved? If Character A has 1 outlier Low 2-C feat, but is part of a Team, that together, consistently achieves Tier 2 feats when together, would those Tier 2 feats be the Teams Tier? or would each of the characters be upgraded to Tier 2 based on this?
• Is the "Membership" section really necessary? Surely a user can determine how many members a team has by looking at how many people are in it based on the next two sections. I also don't believe that it's relevant information anyway, and seems pointless and redundant for the format.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Honestly Kieran makes sense to me lol

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Most of that has been answered already

• "Team abilities" would almost always stem from a combination of the individuals abilities, which can obviously simply be added to the character profiles as their own abilities.

"Team Abilitieis" refers to equipment, weapons, resources, etc, the team owns and uses rather than character powers. For example, lets say that a team has teleporters, so the team has teleportation in their section, If they have a telepath, they woud not get mind manip unless they have equipment that.

• What happens to the likes of Mundane teams or those that are teams of generally similar characters? What's preventing a user from creating a Team Profile for a Fortnite Squad? and how would the profile work if that was allowed, as there would be no definitive "Leader", there would be only a select few "Team Abilities", and there would not be a "Base of Operations", leaving a very bland profile in cases like this.

Teams would have to be compromised of established characters who already have pages beforehand

• Wouldn't giving Tiers and Statistics of each character in the team clog up almost every profile? and if we weren't giving the Tier of each character on the team aren't we missing out critical information about a large majority of the team in most cases?

It's just gonna be the weakest and strongest members, like how if a character has 'varies', we just llist their weakest and strongest stats

• What about teams with a lot of incarnations? The Avengers for instance has had dozens of prominent incarnations in the past, each with different members and leaders, as has the Justice League, and more. Would these be Keys? Separate Profiles? Or would Team Profiles be composited?

Keys.

• How would we treat Outliers for Teams relevant to the characters involved? If Character A has 1 outlier Low 2-C feat, but is part of a Team, that together, consistently achieves Tier 2 feats when together, would those Tier 2 feats be the Teams Tier? or would each of the characters be upgraded to Tier 2 based on this?

These would still be treated character-by-character

• Is the "Membership" section really necessary? Surely a user can determine how many members a team has by looking at how many people are in it based on the next two sections. I also don't believe that it's relevant information anyway, and seems pointless and redundant for the format.

I don't see why this wouldn't be relevant information

 

[YungManzi]

So... to clarify, and pardon the intrusion since I'm not staff, would supernatural resources/weapons/equipment that grants powers be listed on the profile?

And if so... would you need to make sperate profiles specifically for those supernatural resources/weapons/equipment or could you list the powers they grant you?

 

[The_Impress]

The template looks good and I can see that a lot of work has gone into it. However I don't really see a point in this being a thing honestly.

We already allow team up battles for Versus Threads anyways, which we support and even allow to be added to profiles.

For two characters tops.

We also already create Duo profiles (for some reason, granted I disagree with these to a degree)

For two characters tops.

Like, this should be transparently recognisable to you, claims of redundancy are genuinely nonsensical here.

What is on that profile that cannot be given to the individual character profiles involved?

It represents resources and powers characters have through association, their own dynamics in said association, and how well a group of characters work as a group, and this is from the individual character's perspective.

If you're listing these on an individual character's files, it's irrelevant to that format's purposes and should just straight up be removed.

I also believe that forcing the creation of Character Profiles to allow a team to be created could lead to poorly written character profiles by users who just wanted to make a team in some cases.

Irrelevant. This is only promoting users to index their verses better then, if anything, and keep in mind NOTHING stops users from making bad profiles regardless.

• "Team abilities" would almost always stem from a combination of the individuals abilities, which can obviously simply be added to the character profiles as their own abilities.

Why? They're not relevant.

I also have a few questions regarding the Format itself:

• What happens to the likes of Mundane teams or those that are teams of generally similar characters? What's preventing a user from creating a Team Profile for a Fortnite Squad?

Addressed, we mention each individual member must have a file, Fortnite squad isn't eligible for said file

• and how would the profile work if that was allowed, as there would be no definitive "Leader", there would be only a select few "Team Abilities", and there would not be a "Base of Operations", leaving a very bland profile in cases like this.

Firstly "blandness" isn't something you judge a format's usefulness by, unless you're also willing to argue against the bajillion "guy with gun", " unknown stats" and "10-B" existing make the presence of Characters Profile Format.

• • Hell, what would be the point in profiles for the Ninja Turtles, or the Furious 5 from Kung Fu Panda, there are dozens of prominent teams in fiction that would have incredibly bland profiles because despite being a team, their abilities and interesting features come from the individuals in 90% of the cases.

I refuse to believe you have watched Ninja Turtles sufficiently enough to actually seen the wacky "every team member is required for this" equipment they straight up wouldn't be able to operate in a 1v1 scenario.

And honestly if you're bringing up "Guy with Gun" equivalents to this format, I'll bring up the point of the FAR MORE PROMINENT teams across fiction that are greatly benefited by this, like the X-Men, whose abundance of team-wide resources that you can't just put on individual character's files (without laughable misasssociation and omissions), or the Fantastic Four, who have multiple powers only relevant when they're TOGETHER and not individually, and they also have thousands of resources they can pull from.

• Wouldn't giving Tiers and Statistics of each character in the team clog up almost every profile?

This is also the second time this has been misunderstood, good God.

No we're not listing EACH CHARACTER's stats, we're listing the low-end and the high-end, which is reasonable.

• and if we weren't giving the Tier of each character on the team aren't we missing out critical information about a large majority of the team in most cases?

..no, unless you're being a perfectionist and bloating the file on purpose. Compromises and middle-grounds exist, and most relevant teams only require you to understand low-end and MORE IMPORTANTLY high-end, for you to get a good enough grasp for their strength.

We never list "Varies, High 8-C, 8-B, 8-A, Low 7-C, 7-C, High 7-C, Low 7-B, 7-B, 7-A, High 7-A, 6-C, High 6+C", we list " Varies, High 8-C to High 6-C", unless that's not okay with you again.

• • Also, if we did give the tiers to each character, then again, why don't we just stick with multiple Character Profiles?

Because Character Profiles, big shock, represent characters. They don't represent teams. This isn't a tough concept to grasp, but you're honestly quite ignorantly latching onto this, and suggesting we instead cluster character files

• What about teams with a lot of incarnations? The Avengers for instance has had dozens of prominent incarnations in the past, each with different members and leaders, as has the Justice League, and more. Would these be Keys? Separate Profiles? Or would Team Profiles be composited?

...have you read the format? I SAID it's keys. Although actually the way Avengers at least work is, they're better represented by files, due to the fact two functionally distinct teams can share the name Avengers.

• How would we treat Outliers for Teams relevant to the characters involved? If Character A has 1 outlier Low 2-C feat, but is part of a Team, that together, consistently achieves Tier 2 feats when together, would those Tier 2 feats be the Teams Tier? or would each of the characters be upgraded to Tier 2 based on this?

??

• Is the "Membership" section really necessary? Surely a user can determine how many members a team has by looking at how many people are in it based on the next two sections. I also don't believe that it's relevant information anyway, and seems pointless and redundant for the format.

Meh it's important for larger team rosters like Avengers and X-Men, so I suggest to keep it.

---

Like Kieran recognise your proposal is "We don't need this, we'll just fill character sections with COMPLETELY irrelevant information surrounding them in a 1v1 scenario, something the Characters Profiles were focused on", not to mention it completely bloats the absolute hell out of characters like Batman, who have been in a **** ton of teams, AND you're also demanding upwards to thousands of edits to Character Files to account for teams instead.

Like staff members, would you prefer if I give every single X-Men Immortality? Would you prefer if I gave every single Justice League member Tier 4 off of the machines Batman makes as common Jistice League resources? These are gross misrepresentations of the character's solo capabilities, and even worse representation of team mechanics, since it deadass requires the user to not even get a basic assessment of a team's capabilities before having to check every single file, and DOESN'T REPRESENT INCARNATIONS AND ROSTERS.

And honestly at the end of the day, I'll just say this, even if the nitpicks brought up were 100% valid, they're not, I'll still straight up argue Team files should be made because it isn't about " Character Files can do it", it's about the very basic concept of Team profiles, which again should've always been represented on a VERSUS DEBATING WIKI,

Like it's genuinely just uncontestable if these are the arguments against it.

 

[Antvasima]

Impress seems to make sense, but I would much prefer if she tries to be more polite/respectful about it.

Anyway, what about my suggestion of verse-page style alphabetic image gallery links for the members that we have profile pages for? I think that would be very useful for our regular visitors.

 

[The_Impress]

Yeah sure. I'm unsure how to word it for the format, however.

 

[Antvasima]

Maybe we could list the members near the top of the team pages, so it is clearly visible for the visitors who are mainly interested in that information?

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Is it also possible to create hybrid pages since some characters like the Grunts and Brutes from Halo work in squads but they currently only have profiles detailing individuals.

 

[The_Impress]

Maybe we could list the members near the top of the team pages, so it is clearly visible for the visitors who are mainly interested in that information?

I think that's maybe too unusual from our other standard formats in contrast.

Is it also possible to create hybrid pages since some characters like the Grunts and Brutes from Halo work in squads but they currently only have profiles detailing individuals.

Yeah sure

Anyways I added the gallery thing, can this be posted? Multiple admins and two bureaucrats have said yes to this already.

 

[Armorchompy]

I definitely agree with the making of team profiles, however I am opposed to the rule that every member must have a profile, as several teams are just various individuals all with the same powers which IMO would fit better as a single profile than a bunch of nearly identical ones. Maybe hybrid profiles could help serve that purpose?

 

[The_Impress]

But that'll be improper representation of their battle strategy though :V

 

[Armorchompy]

?

 

[Armorchompy]

Do you mean, like, not representing how they fight usually? Because that is definitely case by case, in fact in most of the cases I'm describing those guys barely have any fights without the rest of the team.

 

[The_Impress]

I guess I'll be willing to add a nite regarding that if you were to word it.

 

[Armorchompy]

"Characters from teams that all have identical or nigh-identical sets of Powers & Abilities can have a Team Profile without need of profiles for each of the members, as long as none of them have solo outings more or equally significant to their team appearances. In such a case, the profile should be formatted as a hybrid between a Team Profile and a Character Profile (Assuming here that you've already detailed how to do that)"

 

[The_Impress]

I added it.

 

[Starter_Pack]

From where I come from, having come after the different changes have been made, this looks overall good from what I'm seeing.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that's maybe too unusual from our other standard formats in contrast.

I would prefer if we make this into a mixture of the verse page and profile page format, to make it as useful as possible for our visitors.

Anyways I added the gallery thing, can this be posted? Multiple admins and two bureaucrats have said yes to this already.

Wait a little. See my comment above.

 

[The_Impress]

I would prefer if we make this into a mixture of the verse page and profile page format, to make it as useful as possible for our visitors.

But even our verse page has the order of "Image", "Page Quote", " Summary" and then "Characters" list :V

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. It is probably fine as long as you can fit a character roster gallery somewhere into the pages.

 

[The_Impress]

That's accounted for, yeah. It'll be in the roster section

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That is good then.

 

[The_Impress]

So what about now?

 

[Antvasima]

I didn't notice a roster section in your draft page.

 

[The_Impress]

From the format

Membership: The Team’s members in numbers, either rough or precise.

Leader: The team's leader/head of operations (if any)

Roster: All of the Team members' profiles (With exception of the leader). It's preferable if they are arranged in a gallery for aesthetic purposes.

Team Resources/Abilities: Do not include powers from individual members of the team, only include abilities given from equipment, weapons, and other resources the team has access too

See?

 

[Antvasima]

Shouldn't the gallery links for the team roster part be moved to a big title text separate section instead? It would look weird where it is currently placed.

 

[The_Impress]

Shouldn't the gallery links for the team roster part be moved to a big title text separate section instead? It would look weird where it is currently placed.

How about now?

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Late but I think the idea of team profiles are fine. People above already asked/answered above.

 

[Antvasima]

How about now?

It seems fine now. Thank you.

 

[AKM sama]

I'd like to see an example of how an actual page would look like. So if somebody wants to create one in their sandbox/blog, that would give a better idea.

 

[Antvasima]

That is a good suggestion.

 

[Armorchompy]

I could try with a verse of mine later today