Adding an additional ability for Kris and Frisk...

[EnderLord8]

Well, this is a simple and straightforward CTR that has already been discussed a bit in the Undertale/Deltarune discussion thread

It is necessary to add Immortality (Type 8) to Frisk and Kris through the Player, a canon entity that controls them both.

Agree: 3 (@Minion_of_Pigsaw, @Axorandom0, @Therefir)
Disagree:
Neutrals:

 

[Minion_of_Pigsaw]

I agree.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Idk, it’s not like Player is who literally resurrects them.

 

[EnderLord8]

Idk, it’s not like Player is who literally resurrects them.

Flowey has reffered to the Player as the one doing the TRUE RESET instead of Frisk, talking to them as if they are a separate entity from the human child and begging them to not use said power and let Frisk live their life

I mean the player controls Frisk, being able to reset the timeline at will, being firmly connected with the save system, in addition to his soul being different from Frisk as seen in the profile notes, being able to access the saves.

The player needs both and will try as many times as necessary to win (Or perhaps even lose interest), literally abusing the reset and the save system to do so.

which consequently applies to repeatedly resurrecting both

 

[Axorandom0]

I agree

 

[EnderLord8]

bump

 

[Therefir]

This makes sense.

 

[EnderLord8]

I believe that now only one more mod is needed for this to be applied...

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Isn’t this CRT self-evident/minor as it adds literally only one hax?

 

[Imaginym]

Isn’t this CRT self-evident/minor as it adds literally only one hax?

It proposes to add Type 8 Immortality. It can be a contentious ability to add, because Type 8 means reliant, which can mean relying on wonky like concepts or higher beings. So I'd assume it's similar to CRTs that touch on higher dimensionality/tiered stuff.

The Wiki on what Immortality Type 8 is:

8: Reliant Immortality: The character gets benefited by 1 or more other types of Immortality as long as a certain being, object, place, and/or concept or more may grant them those benefits, losing them otherwise. What exactly a user is reliant over, the benefits given from it, and how the process of the ability operates must be explained. Simply having some weakness that will kill a character when exploited doesn't qualify if it doesn't grant a form of Immortality, and also having other powers that do grant Immortality but are unrelated to that weakness does not count as well. It is discouraged to list this type if it would be redundant due to the same power already being described in another ability of the profile.

Ostensibly, the "Player" (the entity Undertale asserts is present in its setting.) would be what UT's player character would be "reliant" on for this.

The line "It is discouraged to list this type if it would be redundant due to the same power already being described in another ability of the profile." may also be notable, although I do wonder if that text goes contrary to indexing comprehensively.

Apologies for any bother, all.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Me myself is against Type 8 because it is based off Resurrection via Determination, and it is not like Player literally resurrects them, but there were many CRTs that were accepted due to one mod agreeing because it just added one hax ability, which is why I asked.

 

[Imaginym]

Me myself is against Type 8 because it is based off Resurrection via Determination, and it is not like Player literally resurrects them, but there were many CRTs that were accepted due to one mod agreeing because it just added one hax ability, which is why I asked.

That's an interesting point.

Am I mistaken or not in saying that the basis for Type 8 would be that the "Player" resurrects Frisk/Chara, through the SAVE & LOAD system?
After all, other Determination users can do such things with sufficient Determination.

But the profile is written as though they do the SAVE & LOAD actions themselves, including the resurrection that goes with that. So it wouldn't be the "Player" doing that, ergo, the Type 8 would be reliant on..... The SAVE & LOAD system?
I mean, I guess we do see that the Files are a thing, mostly with Omega Flowey "destroying" one. But files are timelines, right?

So is this ability reliant on a timeline??
But doesn't Sans's dialogue imply loading causes new timelines?

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

That's an interesting point.

Am I mistaken or not in saying that the basis for Type 8 would be that the "Player" resurrects Frisk/Chara, through the SAVE & LOAD system?
After all, other Determination users can do such things with sufficient Determination.

I think probably the point is that Frisk’s determination is actually Player’s determination or something, I saw some theories like that, but I don’t think it is accepted on this wiki. Pretty sure Frisk’s determination is their own as Asriel’s dialogue in True Pacifist was referring to Frisk (although he thought it was Chara). More notably, Player can do True Reset, and Frisk can’t, as implied by Flowey in the end of True Pacifist, so Player’s DT is independent from Frisk’s and is even superior to theirs. This is in my understanding though.

Idk about Deltarune.

But the profile is written as though they do the SAVE & LOAD actions themselves, including the resurrection that goes with that. So it wouldn't be the "Player" doing that, ergo, the Type 8 would be reliant on..... The SAVE & LOAD system?
I mean, I guess we do see that the Files are a thing, mostly with Omega Flowey "destroying" one. But files are timelines, right?

Files that Flowey destroys are not timelines, but just save points.

So is this ability reliant on a timeline??
But doesn't Sans's dialogue imply loading causes new timelines?

Eh, kinda yes, kinda no. Read more in this accepted Cosmology blog, which goes over save and load system and how it works.

 

[EnderLord8]

ok, this is somehow a lot more complicated than it should be

 

[EnderLord8]

It proposes to add Type 8 Immortality. It can be a contentious ability to add, because Type 8 means reliant, which can mean relying on wonky like concepts or higher beings. So I'd assume it's similar to CRTs that touch on higher dimensionality/tiered stuff.

The Wiki on what Immortality Type 8 is:

8: Reliant Immortality: The character gets benefited by 1 or more other types of Immortality as long as a certain being, object, place, and/or concept or more may grant them those benefits, losing them otherwise. What exactly a user is reliant over, the benefits given from it, and how the process of the ability operates must be explained. Simply having some weakness that will kill a character when exploited doesn't qualify if it doesn't grant a form of Immortality, and also having other powers that do grant Immortality but are unrelated to that weakness does not count as well. It is discouraged to list this type if it would be redundant due to the same power already being described in another ability of the profile.

Ostensibly, the "Player" (the entity Undertale asserts is present in its setting.) would be what UT's player character would be "reliant" on for this.

The line "It is discouraged to list this type if it would be redundant due to the same power already being described in another ability of the profile." may also be notable, although I do wonder if that text goes contrary to indexing comprehensively.

I don't think it's really a problem, as although the resurrection mechanics are the same or similar, the nature of the Player's existence must be relevant enough for this to apply.

Me myself is against Type 8 because it is based off Resurrection via Determination,

This may be valid, but I believe that due to the nature of the player it is applicable, since as he exists outside of undertale/deltarune, he is virtually immune to temporal manipulation changes via Determination that works independently of the will of Frisk or Kris, and can be resurrected. them independently of themselves

and it is not like Player literally resurrects them

Now, this doesn't make sense because the player is able to manipulate time and abuse the mechanics of the Frisk and Kris independent save system through their own determination, being able to resurrect both at will so you know... Continue playing

That's an interesting point.

Am I mistaken or not in saying that the basis for Type 8 would be that the "Player" resurrects Frisk/Chara, through the SAVE & LOAD system?
After all, other Determination users can do such things with sufficient Determination.

But the profile is written as though they do the SAVE & LOAD actions themselves, including the resurrection that goes with that. So it wouldn't be the "Player" doing that, ergo, the Type 8 would be reliant on..... The SAVE & LOAD system?
I mean, I guess we do see that the Files are a thing, mostly with Omega Flowey "destroying" one. But files are timelines, right?

So is this ability reliant on a timeline??
But doesn't Sans's dialogue imply loading causes new timelines?

Well in this case, both Frisk and the player would be able to use the save system, for example Frisk trying to use it independently of the player in the fight against Asriel/Flowey, or when Flowey himself asked the player to let Frisk continue their life in peace.

 

[EnderLord8]

bump

Is it possible to apply CTR or is there anything else before doing this?