Ace Ukiyo Vs Ayanokoji Kiyotaka: The Genius And The Cunning Fox (7-1-2) GRACE

[Shadowslash125]

Carotid strike? Basically an attack to the neck that takes out all of your oxygen and makes you faint and collapse

His supernatural willpower won't save him from this as far as i know

Fair enough, but this will help too.
Just showing these clips cuz it took me 3 hours to upload the gif many times cuz wifi sucks

Here are the two important clips:

As you can see, his luck causes the monsters chasing them to fail by tripping or slipping them not to mention catching Ace's fall using the surroundings.

This here shows how potent his luck is, despite how minor it is. His luck can get someone who was MIA to save the two from the monsters. They didn't even know she was there to save them in the first place.
The point is that the luck will be around for the whole match. Since this is shown via an Ace that's only lucky (he's neither strong nor smart) Our Ace here will be able to capitalize on such luck by, for example, having his buckles be scattered on the floor to constantly trip Koji. Either that or they'll be in the way of his attacks.

they'll be in the way of his attacks.​

 

[Shadowslash125]

Koji could just pick up the buckles and throw them out of arena when he starts to trip randomly

He's gotta do it quick, or Ace gets free hits on Koji while he's cleaning up. At the same time, something tells me these buckles will magically return to his side. supernatural luck

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Fair enough, but this will help too.
Just showing these clips cuz it took me 3 hours to upload the gif many times cuz wifi sucks

I feel you ;-;

But again, The 1st and 2nd gif are because

1 - There are rocks in the beach and stuff, In the arena there won't be such thing there

2 - External forces are not allowed in a vsbattle iirc

He's gotta do it quick, or Ace gets free hits on Koji while he's cleaning up.

He is quick, But don't forget his upper limit ANPR, Koji can guess his upper limit like he did with Tsukishiro and Shiba

He can also apply his "thinking of all possibilities and choose the most logical one" to fighting as he also did it with Tsukishiro and Shiba

At the same time, something tells me these buckles will magically return to his side. supernatural luck

That would simply be illogical lol, Unless they return to him like a boomarang/teleport to him or smth

His luck won't make him warp reality to do such thing lol (At least it's not on his profile)

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Also, I would like to note something fatal in the clip you showed

He is in a life or death situation (i believe?), Why isn't he using his desire boost?

I believe he won't activate his empowerment just because of some dodging when he doesn't even activate it in a life or death situation

Isn't this an Anti-Feat for his BIQ? Or was he getting power nulled at the time?

 

[BERRIES555]

That attack will work on Ace, no doubt

Unironically, Ace has his jacket, shoes, Koji’s own clothes, he does carry his Desire Driver around and his Magnum Buckle.

The Ace Slash showed was Ace of Hearts, he’s an Ace that literally has no strength, no intelligence, or no willpower. Only luck

 

[Shadowslash125]

2 - External forces are not allowed in a vsbattle iirc

I mean obviously, but I meant to show that clip to showcase how potent his luck is, despite it being minor.

1 - There are rocks in the beach and stuff, In the arena there won't be such thing there

Yeah, that's why the buckles on the floor thing was stated. If there's nothing in the battlefield, he has his own equipment to use for his luck.

He is in a life or death situation (i believe?), Why isn't he using his desire boost?

What basically happened was that Mera (the god slayer) divided Ace into four fragments (Strength, Intellect, Luck and Willpower) This Ace is the Ace of luck, who only depends on his luck to do stuff. He doesn't have the strength nor the willpower to fight against the monsters, not to mention he's too stupid to comprehend he's even in danger. Even if his empowerment is already working behind the scene, he no brains so no fight.

The Ace Slash showed was Ace of Hearts

That's the Ace Of Luck, Ace of Hearts is the willpower Ace.

 

[Shadowslash125]

Unironically, Ace has his jacket, shoes, Koji’s own clothes, he does carry his Desire Driver around and his Magnum Buckle.

Shouldn't he be having more buckles besides Laser Boost and Mark IX for his standard equipment?
Oh yea, he also has a gold coin all the way from ancient rome.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Oof, that doesn’t really help with me understanding it. But the intuition I get. But why is it different from Touma, him blocking Durendal’s attack through skipped time was through intuition and instincts.

I do happen to use only the stuff which is on his profile so that I don't need to attach many scans but thanks lol.

It is different. Intuition is not to be solely related with instinctive dodges here done reflexively. Intuition also means thinking of something and reaching a conclusion without any necessary evidence backing it up. Kiyotaka has a god-level combat intuition.

Now, to understand its working, I think you should relate it with upper limit analyzing. It's canonical (and even on his profile scans) that Kiyotaka can use his intuition to determine the upper limit of his opponents without them actually needing to show it.

While Koji would be able to see Ace’s Upper Limit, Ace in character wouldn’t go all out as soon as the first starts, we way too paranoid for that tbh.

It actually depends heavily on scenarios. And either way, Kiyotaka can use his intuition to just go against Ace and use his AnPr from the start. Ryuuen who has a natural fighting style which counters Kiyotaka got predicted very easily even when he did the same thing you mentioned.

Thanks, it literally was a plane ride from one city to another so it wasn’t too long.

I see.

So, there’s a movie clip I could show you. But essentially, Ace-was being chased by some monsters and over the course of the entire chase, which on screen was like 1-2 minutes, no one was able to catch Ace cause random things like rocks and a pool floaty kept tripping them or hitting them.

So that's how his luck works. Well, Kiyotaka is a kind of very observant person, so for the most part, he will not even trip. His risk assessment in both mental battles and physical battles would allow him to avoid as much risk as possible.

Yeah I told Slash but Calibur’s precog is VERY unique. It’s to the point where I honestly don’t know another person who has his type of precog

Yes, it is very impressive and that's for sure, only that I don't usually compare precognition to AnPr, and that the former tends to be better than the latter for most of the times, but as I already said, I don't think there's any necessary stuff on drawing conclusions for which one is better. One thing for sure is that Ace counters Precognition very well, but not an AnPr on the same level as that of Kiyotaka.

 

[Shadowslash125]

So that's how his luck works. Well, Kiyotaka is a kind of very observant person, so for the most part, he will not even trip. His risk assessment in both mental battles and physical battles would allow him to avoid as much risk as possible.

While Koji being very observant is impressive, there's a reason why it's called supernatural luck. Very convenient things will happen to Koji such that Ace gains an advantage over him in some way shape or form. Even though the arena they're fighting in is minimal, anything available to Ace (his equipment, his clothes, Koji's clothes, even the metal cage surrounding the arena) will be affected by his luck. There's always going to be something inconveniencing him enough to make it a problem, like say his fist gets stuck in the metal cage opening or he trips over Ace's buckles or something of the sort.

It actually depends heavily on scenarios. And either way, Kiyotaka can use his intuition to just go against Ace and use his AnPr from the start. Ryuuen who has a natural fighting style which counters Kiyotaka got predicted very easily even when he did the same thing you mentioned.

Sure Ace will not go all out at the start, but when he figures out his opponent isn't holding back, he'd probably stop limiting himself too, or at least up his ante. 2000 years is a huge gap to reach. Just something to note (cuz I haven't factored all the stuff like the AnPr and the empowerment and stuff).

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Sure Ace will not go all out at the start, but when he figures out his opponent isn't holding back, he'd probably stop limiting himself too, or at least up his ante. 2000 years is a huge gap to reach. Just something to note (cuz I haven't factored all the stuff like the AnPr and the empowerment and stuff).

Koji manipulates the perception of his opponents to make them think Koji is weaker than said opponent

Then Koji quickly dispatches them using the fact they think he is weak to his advantage

It's on his standard tactic, Here;

"Standard Tactics: Ayanokouji for the most part likes to avoid fighting. He just wants to live a normal school life without confrontation. His main 3 fighting styles are Karate, Boxing and Jeet Kune Do. All of his strikes are calculated, and if the opponent has overwhelming durability like thick muscle mass he attacks the weak points of the body. He catches his opponents off guard by manipulating their perception of his full strength then quickly defeats them. He usually only needs to perform simple punches and kicks, due to already being massively stronger than most of his opponents. He is an incredibly strategical and analytical fighter."

 

[Shadowslash125]

Koji manipulates the perception of his opponents to make them think Koji is weaker than said opponent

To be fair on Ace's part, most of the people he had faced in the DGP were nowhere as skilled as him, and he had to hold back when fighting others, but even by then he was paranoid enough to not underestimate anyone. In this case, he'd be keeping an eye on anything fishy (he's surprisingly good at detecting foul play) while fighting normally. Anything out of line and Ace will immediately know he shouldn't mess around anymore. This is basically what he did when fighting against the DGP Staff, Revice and Mera.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

To be fair on Ace's part, most of the people he had faced in the DGP were nowhere as skilled as him, and he had to hold back when fighting others, but even by then he was paranoid enough to not underestimate anyone. In this case, he'd be keeping an eye on anything fishy (he's surprisingly good at detecting foul play) while fighting normally. Anything out of line and Ace will immediately know he shouldn't mess around anymore. This is basically what he did when fighting against the DGP Staff, Revice and Mera.

Good thing Koji is good at deception

Especially when he can fight a pseudo mind reader (not really, He was cold reading) like Tsukishiro who could read 100% of peoples mind but only could read 99% of Koji because he was keeping the 1% to his self

Koji can fake habits, Patterns, Timings, Strenght, Tactics etc etc

 

[Shadowslash125]

Good thing Koji is good at deception

Right right, but so is Ace. In fact, he's also able to sniff out other people's deception rather easily.
Punkjack is a rider joining one DGP, who's actually part of the DGP's staff that had filled in for a prior DGP due to a lack of available players since the next contest was done in pairs. Punkjack then and Punkjack now is very different (the former being a literal mute no-nonsense guy and the latter being a ******* rock star). Despite being able to convince others that this Punkjack and he are actually different people, not only does Ace see through his lie, but he also finds out that he was ordered by the current Game Master to take him out of the DGP, to the point of not even writing a wish when he starts participating, at which only he knew. All in the span of a few seconds when he saw Punkjack and the navigator of the DGP together in a hidden area of the maze (she had to join as the hostage, thus her temporary participation).
Ace was also able to completely figure out the true nature of the DGP while fighting a completely different Rider (the future people obviously were spectating). These are just some examples.

If it helps, the only time he was completely taken for a ride was when Keiwa pretended to fight and lose against Ace to draw out Girori the Current game master of that DGP so that he can reveal himself to be caught by the higher-ups. This is only because:

1. He knows Keiwa well enough to believe that he's serious about beating Ace and getting his wish for world peace. Keep in mind that Keiwa has participated in the previous DGP where silent PunkJack had taken part and also has been saved by Ace before he joined the DGP.
2. Keiwa's a bloody tanuki to Ace's fox

Thus, actually deceiving him is going to be incredibly hard, while Ace has more than what it takes to see through him (the deception part, I mean). Mera didn't steal his intellect away for nothing.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Right right, but so is Ace. In fact, he's also able to sniff out other people's deception rather easily.
Punkjack is a rider joining one DGP, who's actually part of the DGP's staff that had filled in for a prior DGP due to a lack of available players since the next contest was done in pairs. Punkjack then and Punkjack now is very different (the former being a literal mute no-nonsense guy and the latter being a ******* rock star). Despite being able to convince others that this Punkjack and he are actually different people, not only does Ace see through his lie, but he also finds out that he was ordered by the current Game Master to take him out of the DGP, to the point of not even writing a wish when he starts participating, at which only he knew. All in the span of a few seconds when he saw Punkjack and the navigator of the DGP together in a hidden area of the maze (she had to join as the hostage, thus her temporary participation).
Ace was also able to completely figure out the true nature of the DGP while fighting a completely different Rider (the future people obviously were spectating). These are just some examples.

If it helps, the only time he was completely taken for a ride was when Keiwa pretended to fight and lose against Ace to draw out Girori the Current game master of that DGP so that he can reveal himself to be caught by the higher-ups. This is only because:

1. He knows Keiwa well enough to believe that he's serious about beating Ace and getting his wish for world peace. Keep in mind that Keiwa has participated in the previous DGP where silent PunkJack had taken part and also has been saved by Ace before he joined the DGP.
2. Keiwa's a bloody tanuki to Ace's fox

Thus, actually deceiving him is going to be incredibly hard, while Ace has more than what it takes to see through him (the deception part, I mean). Mera didn't steal his intellect away for nothing.

This seems like simple deception though

Takuya has better feats for deceptions since all of his deceptions have layers which Koji upscales and see's through easily imo

 

[BERRIES555]

Yeah Koji has far better showings up deception but Ace has been able to see through deception before. Like the PunkJack thing Slash was talking about. Ace didn’t know the guy and he was able to recognize that he was a Game Staff within their first interaction with one another.

Okay so, I’m being dead serious. I don’t see why Touma’s AnPr is different from Koji’s AnPr. Like both are making correct conclusions to attacks despite the fact that both have little to no evidence. Koji can read a person’s posture and stuff like that to predict movement. Touma literally didn’t know where Durendal was and still correctly countered his assault.

How does knowing Ace’s Upper Limit help Koji here. And why would Koji trying to make himself weaker than Ace matter when Ace is already a cautious person to begin with.

How good is Koji’s ability to focus on multiple things going on at once? I’m assuming it’s good but just a reminder, random objects from clothing, buckles, dust will land to make Koji trip, lose like of sight, or miss attacks. Ace is already casually 6x stronger than him and arguably better in hand to hand. One wrong mess up will do crazy amounts of damage

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Yeah Koji has far better showings up deception but Ace has been able to see through deception before. Like the PunkJack thing Slash was talking about. Ace didn’t know the guy and he was able to recognize that he was a Game Staff within their first interaction with one another.

Yes, But 1 layer

You need showings of him being able to notice more than 1 layer of deception which i assume he doesn't have (until you show smth ofc)

Okay so, I’m being dead serious. I don’t see why Touma’s AnPr is different from Koji’s AnPr. Like both are making correct conclusions to attacks despite the fact that both have little to no evidence. Koji can read a person’s posture and stuff like that to predict movement. Touma literally didn’t know where Durendal was and still correctly countered his assault.

Because, Better scaling chain + More factors + Koji being able to outpredict and stomp every user ANPR user on COTE

How does knowing Ace’s Upper Limit help Koji here.

Koji will be able to outpredict him easily, Like;

Koji throws a kick, Ace notices and dodges to the left but Koji already predicted this and attacks Ace in another place with high precision

Koji can easily read 2-3 steps ahead of the opponent

Ace can dodge but will only get hit in another place, He needs to feats to evade smth like this

And why would Koji trying to make himself weaker than Ace matter when Ace is already a cautious person to begin with.

Because that's what Koji always did throughout the entire series, I don't see why it would be different here kek

How good is Koji’s ability to focus on multiple things going on at once? I’m assuming it’s good but just a reminder, random objects from clothing, buckles, dust will land to make Koji trip, lose like of sight, or miss attacks. Ace is already casually 6x stronger than him and arguably better in hand to hand. One wrong mess up will do crazy amounts of damage

Ungodly good, He is able to multi talk things that were stated to fry someone's brain and was doing it casually against Shiba and Tsukishiro

He was thinking of possibilities such as, What if they had a weapon? What if they had another member waiting to ambush him? What if they are hiding something from him and a shit ton of other factors

 

[Shadowslash125]

Yes, But 1 layer
You need showings of him being able to notice more than 1 layer of deception which i assume he doesn't have (until you show smth ofc)

By the by, could you elaborate on this? I'm not sure I get this.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

By the by, could you elaborate on this? I'm not sure I get this.

Smth like this;

An example of multi-layered traps would be the trap to Takuya, where Koji basically trapped Takuya in his own emotions and caused him to break more rules, and he also set the other students to actually interrogate him, and he would have been cornered either way.

 

[BERRIES555]

Yes, But 1 layer

You need showings of him being able to notice more than 1 layer of deception which i assume he doesn't have (until you show smth ofc)

Because, Better scaling chain + More factors + Koji being able to outpredict and stomp every user ANPR user on COTE


Koji will be able to outpredict him easily, Like;

Koji throws a kick, Ace notices and dodges to the left but Koji already predicted this and attacks Ace in another place with high precision

Koji can easily read 2-3 steps ahead of the opponent

Ace can dodge but will only get hit in another place, He needs to feats to evade smth like this

Because that's what Koji always did throughout the entire series, I don't see why it would be different here kek

Ungodly good, He is able to multi talk things that were stated to fry someone's brain and was doing it casually against Shiba and Tsukishiro

He was thinking of possibilities such as, What if they had a weapon? What if they had another member waiting to ambush him? What if they are hiding something from him and a shit ton of other factors

yeah, Ace only has 1 layer of deduction from the PunkJack feat

Okay so, the difference is that Ace is direct while Koji upscales. Does other characters in COTE have any showings on the same level as Touma. Like, predicting an attack through time skip and immediately moving towards a defensive position before the attack even lands

I’m not asking if Koji will make himself weaker, I’m asking on why it’d make a difference in this fight

 

[Shadowslash125]

Like, predicting an attack through time skip and immediately moving towards a defensive position before the attack even lands

Feat in question:

 

[RoggerReggor]

While Koji being very observant is impressive, there's a reason why it's called supernatural luck. Very convenient things will happen to Koji such that Ace gains an advantage over him in some way shape or form. Even though the arena they're fighting in is minimal, anything available to Ace (his equipment, his clothes, Koji's clothes, even the metal cage surrounding the arena) will be affected by his luck. There's always going to be something inconveniencing him enough to make it a problem, like say his fist gets stuck in the metal cage opening or he trips over Ace's buckles or something of the sort.

Kiyotaka can not only predict opponents, but he also regards possibilities. He has the Y1V9 feat where he never discarded the possibility of the alcohol package being much later than it was shown to be. He also predicted the possibility of Tsukishiro having a stun gun in Y2V4 and had already made all the plans in counter to that. He also has the prediction of Ichika's bedroom traps in Y2V5. Kiyotaka is a type of person who would not disregard the possibility of his fists being stuck in the cage himself. He has also accepted that he imagines each and every possibility. Considering his supernatural luck, I believe it is related with just environmental manipulation and it is also shown in whatever you have sent, and that isn't related to conceptual manipulation, like Ace cannot have gravity manipulated with his luck, which would be beyond what Kiyotaka can have precedented.

Sure Ace will not go all out at the start, but when he figures out his opponent isn't holding back, he'd probably stop limiting himself too, or at least up his ante. 2000 years is a huge gap to reach. Just something to note (cuz I haven't factored all the stuff like the AnPr and the empowerment and stuff).

Experience doesn't matter much if a person has necessary abilities to counter most which an opponent has to offer.

And let's not forget that Kiyotaka also has fear-stun hax. While yes, Ace might be very resilient to fears and trauma, there's nothing which proves that he does the same against supernaturally induced fear. Kiyotaka doesn't use it normally, but in a situation like this, he would definitely resort to using it, which seems the case.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Feat in question:

There's a guy in COTE who has done something very similar. Manabu in Y1V8 had his eyes covered by snow and that too, against an opponent who he had never fought before. He predicted the exact timing and motion of the attack and responded to it accordingly.

Also, you can share YT links or any other safe link for the video in the comments, just if you are still facing trouble for uploading stuff.

Also, no, COTE doesn't have any conceptual manipulation abilities, nothing like time-skips and stuff.

 

[Shadowslash125]

There's a guy in COTE who has done something very similar. Manabu in Y1V8 had his eyes covered by snow and that too, against an opponent who he had never fought before. He predicted the exact timing and motion of the attack and responded to it accordingly.

I don't think this will be enough, as the time erasure Kamen Rider Durendal (the guy that's erasing time here) works differently to this feat. It's not that the opponents cannot see him anymore when he erases time and repositions elsewhere, but this guy erases the time and does this WHILE they're still in battle. Like this guy has activated the time erasing and is now walking to where he wants to position himself, he becomes separate from the real space that he's fighting his opponents in, even being able to see himself in the real space fighting said opponents. Once he finishes using that technique, he erases time around them and appears in his new position ready to strike them while they don't even realise he's not there anymore. From the POV of his opponent, Durendal would be deflecting their attacks and then suddenly he's already right behind them.
In this case, Manabu was blinded and can rely on other senses while in Touma's, Durendal completely fecking disappeared right in front of him only to get hit in the back. And Touma was able to tag him later on.

Kiyotaka is a type of person who would not disregard the possibility of his fists being stuck in the cage himself. He has also accepted that he imagines each and every possibility.

Supernatural Luck in the vsbattle wiki states that "one's good or bad fortune can be compared to passive Probability Manipulation, often overlapping for some characters, as they are followed by fortune in everything they do and everywhere they go, to the point that impossible coincidences line up again and again in or against their favor", meaning that even if he has calculated everything, there's still a possibility that his calculations will fail, no matter how impossible that will be for Koji. And though it's stated to be minor in Ace's profile and isn't conceptual manipulation, it's potent enough to even have someone who's MIA show up to save them. Since there won't be outside help, that luck is going to do something else equally potent to give Koji trouble. Anything in the vicinity of the arena can be affected.

 

[Shadowslash125]

Also, you can share YT links or any other safe link for the video in the comments, just if you are still facing trouble for uploading stuff.

I'm still actually playing around with the posting stuff (dunno how to use the media tab) and I also have most of Kamen Rider Geats in my PC, so can't have them go to waste.

 

[BERRIES555]

Just to back up what Slash said, it’s not as simple as being blinded and performing an attack and defending at the same time. The reason why Durendal was so feared in KR Saber was cause while fighting, the opponent will not know that time was skipped. Like, let’s say someone steps, attacks, block. Durendal will erase the attacks so the opponent will only step and block. Now, the opponent will not only be caught off guard by the erases time but also not know how they sent into a blocking position despite wanting to attack first.

I guess another person you can scale is Kamen Rider Blades. Now, I’m Saber, and I’m being dead serious and I can provide more information on this if you want, being one of the greatest swordsman in history is considered to be a low standard of the series. Blades is a prodigy swordsman and by the time Durendal comes, masters damn near all sword forms. Despite that, Durendal absolutely destroyed Blades in their encounter solely through just how confusing the time skips are. And Touma is out here parrying attacks that Blades cannot even keep up with despite his crazy level of skill

 

[BERRIES555]

Also, Rogger, you wanna go over everything the three of us agree with and disagree with before we continue this further? I don’t wanna accidentally talk about things we already agree on

 

[XxZetsuxX]

I will say this just in case

I know Ace has experience in dealing with ANPR though it's trajectories and enviromental ones (Confirm this for me please, I have forgot and i am too lazy to scroll up XD)

I don't see how Ace will be able to dodge Koji when he legit can just predict several steps ahead when Ace doesn't even have ANPR himself (The one needed against Koji), He cannot outpredict Koji when he himself doesn't have ANPR to counter Koji's own version of it

Koji will just lure him to evade to a certain area just to hit him in any pressure point area early on

Ace from what i see doesn't start by throwing his buckle to make Koji trip and his empowerment the way i see it won't activate him in time to overpower Koji

I firmly believe Koji will just hit him in the neck before Ace can do anything when they go for H2H

 

[Robo432343]

voting incon

 

[Shadowslash125]

voting incon

Counted.

 

[Shadowslash125]

I know Ace has experience in dealing with ANPR though it's trajectories and enviromental ones (Confirm this for me please, I have forgot and i am too lazy to scroll up XD)

On his own, yeah. It's those two + body movement. Scaling to other riders who are not from his series (since they had canon crossovers), it's not just that really.
Recapping what BERRIES and I have said, Ace scales to Kamen Rider Revice after the latter's series finished, who he fought to a stalemate. Those riders (Revice is actually comprised of two Riders, Revi and Vice) scale to Kamen Rider Saber, who Revice fought before. Touma (Kamen Rider Saber) is the guy who outmanoeuvred and predicted Kamen Rider Durendal when the latter erased time, which I presume no one in the COTE verse would be able to do. This is our explanation of that Time Erasure ability.

It's not that the opponents cannot see him anymore when he erases time and repositions elsewhere, but this guy erases the time and does this WHILE they're still in battle. Like this guy has activated the time erasing and is now walking to where he wants to position himself, he becomes separate from the real space that he's fighting his opponents in, even being able to see himself in the real space fighting said opponents. Once he finishes using that technique, he erases time around them and appears in his new position ready to strike them while they don't even realise he's not there anymore. From the POV of his opponent, Durendal would be deflecting their attacks and then suddenly he's already right behind them.
Durendal completely fecking disappeared right in front of him only to get hit in the back.

let’s say someone steps, attacks, block. Durendal will erase the attacks so the opponent will only step and block. Now, the opponent will not only be caught off guard by the erases time but also not know how they sent into a blocking position despite wanting to attack first.

Ace from what i see doesn't start by throwing his buckle to make Koji trip

While I said he could do it, judging by how his luck will work, the buckles will be spilling out from his pockets by accident even if he doesn't actually scatter them anyway.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

On his own, yeah. It's those two + body movement.

His red eyes are just trajectories and enviromental right?

Body movement i assume it's without it yes?

Assuming it is indeed without it, That is invalid because his profile doesn't have ANPR

Scaling to other riders who are not from his series (since they had canon crossovers), it's not just that really.
Recapping what BERRIES and I have said, Ace scales to Kamen Rider Revice after the latter's series finished, who he fought to a stalemate. Those riders (Revice is actually comprised of two Riders, Revi and Vice) scale to Kamen Rider Saber, who Revice fought before. Touma (Kamen Rider Saber) is the guy who outmanoeuvred and predicted Kamen Rider Durendal when the latter erased time, which I presume no one in the COTE verse would be able to do. This is our explanation of that Time Erasure ability.

I don't think thats Time stop looking at the ability

It's more akin to slowing down time or increasing his perception to make his opponents in slow motion

Also, Forgive me but i don't think this is a viable feat for ANPR thing, Because i think he overcame the time slow when his eyes started glowing which suggests he activated an ability that made him able to move in that world his opponent was in

While I said he could do it, judging by how his luck will work, the buckles will be spilling out from his pockets by accident even if he doesn't actually scatter them anyway.

Koji would notice it, He has op observation feats and also can think of possible outcomes

 

[Shadowslash125]

His red eyes are just trajectories and enviromental right?

Body movement i assume it's without it yes?

Assuming it is indeed without it, That is invalid because his profile doesn't have ANPR

I mean that Ace didn't have it when he was no-selling Dapaan's AnPr. And yes, Red Eyes has all three of what I mentioned.

I don't think thats Time stop looking at the ability
It's more akin to slowing down time or increasing his perception to make his opponents in slow motion
Also, Forgive me but i don't think this is a viable feat for ANPR thing, Because i think he overcame the time slow when his eyes started glowing which suggests he activated an ability that made him able to move in that world his opponent was in

It's Time Erasure, not time slow nor faster perception. As stated in Kamen Rider Durendal's profile: "Durendal’s Ocean History allows him to move through time in a space separate from the passage of time, called 'Erased Time', and erase it when he comes out. As a result, this ability is able to erase the time of everyone in range of the ability." If you want a scan I can show you another one where Durendal is in action (the one that doesn't result in Touma tagging him).

 

[Dinozxd]

It's Time Erasure, not time slow nor faster perception. As stated in Kamen Rider Durendal's profile: "Durendal’s Ocean History allows him to move through time in a space separate from the passage of time, called 'Erased Time', and erase it when he comes out. As a result, this ability is able to erase the time of everyone in range of the ability." If you want a scan I can show you another one where Durendal is in action (the one that doesn't result in Touma tagging him).

King Crimson ahh ability

I hate skill related matchups so not gonna get into that. Stats wise, Ace has the AP advantage while Ayano has the Lifting Strength advantage. LS is less important in a fight compared to AP so Ace has the advantage in terms of stats, to the point where he can badly injure Ayano if he lands a hit. While Koji can ultilize Pressure Points to tire Ace out and get him to a point where he can damage him, though that'll take some time so he needs to have a considerable Stamina advantage to do that.

What are Ace's best stamina feats?

 

[XxZetsuxX]

I mean that Ace didn't have it when he was no-selling Dapaan's AnPr. And yes, Red Eyes has all three of what I mentioned.

I see

But again, Having those is kinda meaningless because they just 1 layer of ANPR of sorts

Koji can has several layers because he can outpredict all of the cote verse in the scaling chain i provided above

Moreover he has alot more factors to predict which Ace has no feats to help him there

That stopping time prediction is kinda useless when Koji's ANPR will allow him to predict his movements in advance and attack the places Koji lured him

It's Time Erasure, not time slow nor faster perception. As stated in Kamen Rider Durendal's profile: "Durendal’s Ocean History allows him to move through time in a space separate from the passage of time, called 'Erased Time', and erase it when he comes out. As a result, this ability is able to erase the time of everyone in range of the ability." If you want a scan I can show you another one where Durendal is in action (the one that doesn't result in Touma tagging him).

Alright, But in the scan you showed, The guy's eye started glowing and then he was able to overcome that, Isn't that why he was able to tag him though?

 

[XxZetsuxX]

King Crimson ahh ability

I hate skill related matchups so not gonna get into that. Stats wise, Ace has the AP advantage while Ayano has the Lifting Strength advantage. LS is less important in a fight compared to AP so Ace has the advantage in terms of stats, to the point where he can badly injure Ayano if he lands a hit. While Koji can ultilize Pressure Points to tire Ace out and get him to a point where he can damage him, though that'll take some time so he needs to have a considerable Stamina advantage to do that.

What are Ace's best stamina feats?

Koji's pressure points can K.O him with carotid strike which just requires 1 attack to the neck

 

[Shadowslash125]

Ace's best stamina feats are:

• He's able to face large hordes of Jyamato Monsters (enough to surround the entire city) and giant Jyamato castles on his own without tiring.
• He's able to fight for several hours without tiring at all.
• He kept fighting against another rider despite being heavily damaged by him (the other rider uses a chainsaw).
• Ace is still able to fight against Keiwa and then Girori normally despite being chased around by Girori's hound riders for a long time.
• No one has ever seen him exhausted until the time when the new power-up he received tired him out fast due to its jet lag. This only happens when he uses that power-up, which is unusable in this matchup. due to having to transform (hence why I'm only using the civilian key)

 

[Dinozxd]

Koji's pressure points can K.O him with carotid strike which just requires 1 attack to the neck

I just read the ability's justification and it doesn't say anything about bypassing durability. Koji would still need to be able to damage him to use it imo.

Ace's best stamina feats are:

• He's able to face large hordes of Jyamato Monsters (enough to surround the entire city) and giant Jyamato castles on his own without tiring.
• He's able to fight for several hours without tiring at all.
• He kept fighting against another rider despite being heavily damaged by him (the other rider uses a chainsaw).
• Ace is still able to fight against Keiwa and then Girori normally despite being chased around by Girori's hound riders for a long time.
• No one has ever seen him exhausted until the time when the new power-up he received tired him out fast due to its jet lag. This only happens when he uses that power-up, which is unusable in this matchup. due to having to transform (hence why I'm only using the civilian key)

The first feat is enough to save him from getting outlasted in the matchup imo. I'm not gonna vote for now but I'm leaning towards Ace rn but will change my vote to Incon if the yall debate about skill gets too long and complicated cuz like I said, I hate skill matchups.

 

[BERRIES555]

Ace’s best stamina feat is probably that one time was captured by the DGP, tortured for a week straight and immediately got up and started fighting the Game Masters and even won

I hate skill matchups.

Me too bro, me too

 

[XxZetsuxX]

I just read the ability's justification and it doesn't say anything about bypassing durability. Koji would still need to be able to damage him to use it imo.

You can't defy human biology and invalidate abilities to your liking :/

An attack to the carotid will take all of your oxygen going to the brain, Ceasing all functions and make you faint and collapse due to the lack of oxygen

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

You can't defy human biology and invalidate abilities to your liking :/

An attack to the carotid will take all of your oxygen going to the brain, Ceasing all functions and make you faint and collapse due to the lack of oxygen

You still need to strike pretty dang hard and do quite a bit of damage for that to work

If you try to smack yourself in that same area without that much force you won't be knocked out because you're not putting enough energy into it for it to actually do anything. It does take a decent amount of energy & strength for it to do anything. Hell, carotid strikes don't even work in knocking people out sometimes.

Ace, having higher durability than Ayano's AP, should require more energy to knock him out (assuming that the amount of energy required to trigger it grows with the persons durabilty, which only makes sense; I doubt a strike that could knock me out could do anything to Mike Tyson due to him being so much bigger & more durable than me) and thus would be capable of withstanding the strike without getting knocked out as his durability will let him tank the hits from Ayano to that area because Ayano won't be hitting him hard enough to actually trigger it on him

iirc, the only person we see the pressure point actually work on in the series is someone a lot weaker than Ayano. Unless he used it against someone that's a lot stronger than him, then it's no limits fallacy, as you're assuming he can use it on anyone stronger than him and have it instantly work. Unless it's actually shown to be efficent against far stronger opponents, then it likely wont.

Pressure points aren't a universal instant durability negating one-shot move, they varry from verse-to-verse. Some verses treat pressure points as these super dangerous & powerful strikes that can harm people hundreds of times stronger, and other verses have characters tanking full power pressure point strikes no problem. Unless it's shown that Ayano's carotid strike can consistantly harm characters multiple times more powerful than him (which considering how Ayano is the most powerful person in his verse I doubt we have ever seen that), we shouldn't act like it can.