Acausality Type 5 checklist

[Theglassman12]

@LIFE_OF_KING thats still like half of the requirements. You’d need them being stated to be not affected by any change in reality as a result of being outside of cause and effect.

@Oliver_de_jesus So time and causality are treated as one and the same in Doctor Who, and the time lords being outside of time are rendered much more solidified into reality, which makes them harder to change? I can see type 5 Acausality with this.

 

[Robo432343]

Khorne

Khorne, also known as Kharneth, the Blood God, the Lord of Murder and the Hunter of Souls, is the Chaos God of War, Honour, Courage, Rage, Strength and Hate. His domain of power encompasses the most basic and brutal of sentient emotion and every act of killing is said to empower Him, the more...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

@Oliver_de_jesus So time and causality are treated as one and the same in Doctor Who, and the time lords being outside of time are rendered much more solidified into reality, which makes them harder to change? I can see type 5 Acausality with this.

Yes, hell, In The War in Heaven they invented weaponry that use all different levels of causality (Level 1 is the normal causality, the more higher you go up the more real you become and therefore more difficult to touch while the lower after 0.5 you can not interact with the timeline) and still Mitclan was still considered the only safe place during the War

What about the Ultimate Sanction? If it falls as such, you could place it in the profile of the Time Lords? like

Acausality (Type 4 normally; Time Lords are stated to exist outside “the normal chain of causal events”. Due to the Transduction Barriers, Gallifrey is isolated from N-Space, being a space-time on its own disconnected from the continuum, whilst simultaneously existing in the center of the Web of Time, being more akin to a focal point in causality, rather than a "place". Type 5 with Ultimate Sanction; In order to escape the destruction of all existence caused by the Ultimate Sanction, the Time Lords would shed off their physical forms, becoming entities of pure consciousness freed from time and causality),

Also what you thought about the Anti-time?

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

thats still like half of the requirements. You’d need them being stated to be not affected by any change in reality as a result of being outside of cause and effect.

If Yota, the entity that is the very concept of cause and reaction, has no knowledge of something, it means that this something is completly outside casuality

 

[Robo432343]

@Dragonite007 looks like type 4 Acausality at best, nothing about it mentions being in an unchangeable state as a result of Lucifer being outside of the function of cause and effect.

but like we already know lucifer would be an unchangeable entity as a result of functioning outside of cause and affect because cause and affect applied to Michael when he arrived at his home at part of destiny's scheme
but now lucifer exist outside of that

 

[Theglassman12]

@LIFE_OF_KING thats still not enough. You need those two to be linked for type 5, if not this is just type 4 Acausality.

@Oliver_de_jesus kinda neutral on the anti-causality stuff, doesn’t really sound much unless it does something noteworthy to the Acausal beings.

@Robo432343 you got the scans that shows that? Because nothing in the page remotely says that.

 

[Robo432343]

Because nothing in the page remotely says that.

"with Destiny of the Endless having described events such as Michael's arrival at his home as all a part of this "scheme"
the whole point of Lucifer is him trying to escape his fathers plan which contains all laws such as cause and effect and dote is basically the cause and effect in yahwehs universe

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

@Oliver_de_jesus kinda neutral on the anti-causality stuff, doesn’t really sound much unless it does something noteworthy to the Acausal beings.

OK, so you will do the change that i saying in Time Lords page?

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

Okay for Warhammer 40k/Fantasy. All their type 5 acausality comes from the Warp and here's a few statements regarding the Warp/entities within it:

• Cause need not follow effect in the Warp
• The Warp is entirely unbound by both causality and time
• The Warp/Immaterium doesn't follow any of the laws of the Materium or linear time which would imply it doesn't follow causality:

It is a roiling, howling maelstorm of force and energy, utterly unpredictable and not subject to the rational laws and linear flow of time in the way that physical reality is. - Horus Heresy Book I: Betrayal, pg 16

• Slaanesh always existed and it's "birth" did essentially nothing to affect them:

That is how events are viewed from the chronology of the material universe. In the Warp, things are different, for the Immaterium is not bound by linear time, and events do not occur in a strict sequence of cause then effect. As his rival gods reckon it, Slaanesh has always existed in the Warp, and has yet never existed at all. -Codex Chaos Daemons 6E

• Daemons also attacked during the War in Heaven which occurred millions of years before what anyone in the materium would consider the "births" of the Chaos Gods:

We are open to the offer alliance,’ Eldrad said quickly, in a more conciliatory manner, ‘Neither of us benefits from the release of the daemonic horde within your vault.'
...
Another of the six manifestations-of-glories-unearned has broken free. If another arrives it will overcome those arrayed against it. -Rise of the Ynnari: Wild Rider

 

[Samael_010]

"with Destiny of the Endless having described events such as Michael's arrival at his home as all a part of this "scheme"
the whole point of Lucifer is him trying to escape his fathers plan which contains all laws such as cause and effect and dote is basically the cause and effect in yahwehs universe

on what robo saying The Presence shceme itself is cause and effect dont get aca5 out of Lucifer!!!

 

[Robo432343]

on what robo saying The Presence shceme itself is cause and effect dont get aca5 out of Lucifer!!!

mf im literally defending aca 5

 

[Samael_010]

mf im literally defending aca 5

aint no way

 

[Theglassman12]

@Robo432343 you didn’t answer my question, nothing in that says he becomes an unchangeable entity here.

@Oliver_de_jesus you can apply the changes. Just make sure you got the relevant scans in the profiles.

@AbaddonTheDisappointment ehh, is there anything that shows them being unchangeable due to their status in this realm? Because you got the unbound by causality stuff, now you just need the unchangeable statement.

 

[Catpija]

True Dragons are outside the law of the world (which includes causality), resulting in them being unable to be affected by any attack that are still bound by the law.

She opened with her trump card, ‘Gravity Collapse,’ right out of the gate. The scale was reduced in size as much as possible, thus increasing the intensity. The strongest attack that Carrera could currently muster hit Velgrynd, who was focused on Testarossa.
Velgrynd was enveloped in a jet-black pillar that seemed to connect heaven and earth. The circular pillar, which was only big enough to hold a single person, was like a prison from which there was no escape.
However…
Velgrynd smiled fearlessly, remaining unperturbed in the cage of hypergravity.
“As expected of a demon overlord. Your magic is perfectly powerful. However, for so long as you are bound by the laws of this world your attack won’t work against a True Dragon.”
As if to prove her point, Velgrynd shattered the jet-black pillar from within. She raised her own mana and interfered with Carrera’s magic, rendering it powerless. (Volume 15, Chapter 1)

“Still, I can perform research into it. And what I found was that in this world, magic is the power to interfere with the laws of nature. There’s a mysterious set of laws to this world—people call them the World Language—and when you earn a new power, or the value of your life rises in some way, like when you evolve, then that’s how nature tells you about it. Magic runs under the same rules as this World Language; when you cast the spell, it turns that nonphysical phenomenon into real life. And if you look at it the other way…”
Yuuki paused. I tried to guess where this was going. Look at it the other way…
“Everything has a cause and an effect, and if you figure out the laws behind all that, you might even be able to find a way home…is what you’re saying?” (Volume 4, Chapter 5)

According to Veldora, Hinata tried out a variety of attacks. She utilized all sorts of magic, spells, magic tools, and even magic artifacts. No expense was spared in their battle. Any purely physical attacks were ineffective against Veldora. That’s why Hinata probably ran a number of tests to see which attacks had an impact. But in the end, none of Hinata’s attacks amounted to much of anything. (Volume 10, Chapter 2)

Are this enough to qualify for Type 5?

 

[Theglassman12]

That sounds more like invulnerability than Acausality given they’re not unchangeable throughout the world, just immune to some attacks.

 

[Samael_010]

what it mean by unchangeable entity?

 

[Robo432343]

@Robo432343 you didn’t answer my question, nothing in that says he becomes an unchangeable entity here.

we already know hes an unchangeable entity as shown when michaels arrival at his home was all part of the presence's plan which contains all of creation
and lucifer exist outside that plan (end of series)

 

[Ovy7]

I apologize for interrupting, but I would like to pose a question regarding the treatment of reality>fiction/narrative layers within the framework of Acausality. Specifically, how should we approach the interaction between entities residing in higher narrative layers and those in lower layers in the context of Acausality? It is conceivable that beings existing in higher narrative layers would transcend the constraints of causality and other phenomena associated with the lower layers, perceiving them merely as fictional stories. Concurrently, these beings would remain unaffected by events transpiring in the lower layers, owing to the aforementioned property of reality superseding fiction.

As such, to which type of Acausality would this particular scenario correspond?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

what it mean by unchangeable entity?

we already know hes an unchangeable entity as shown when michaels arrival at his home was all part of the presence's plan which contains all of creation
and lucifer exist outside that plan (end of series)

There are two strict requirements, one being statements or showcases of them being outside/transcending causality. Pretty easy stuff to get in novels.

The second requirement is a scan showing they cannot be changed by force that exists inside of causality. Meaning, they can't be touched, attacked, or generally interacted with.

Even if the 1st Requirement means they SHOULD be unchangeable, you still need to prove that, cause most of the time writers don't actually understand what it means to be beyond causality.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I apologize for interrupting, but I would like to pose a question regarding the treatment of reality>fiction/narrative layers within the framework of Acausality. Specifically, how should we approach the interaction between entities residing in higher narrative layers and those in lower layers in the context of Acausality? It is conceivable that beings existing in higher narrative layers would transcend the constraints of causality and other phenomena associated with the lower layers, perceiving them merely as fictional stories. Concurrently, these beings would remain unaffected by events transpiring in the lower layers, owing to the aforementioned property of reality superseding fiction.

As such, to which type of Acausality would this particular scenario correspond?

I'm interested in this as well, as there are verses where lower-level beings have Acausality Type 5, but beings in higher realms only have showings of Acausality Type 4.

 

[Samael_010]

for leviathan species Unwritten

Leviathan species exist outside the hierarchy of Stories and uneffected by its destruction, The hierarchy of stories and how thing goes is maintaned by the Leviathan, when the leviathan bleeding to dead the stories itself slowly gone leaving the Unwritten page the ultimate non being.
About on how Pullman/Gilgamesh able to effect the Leviathan check out this page, pullman himself cant conventionally kill the Leviathan so he need Gilgamesh who Leviathan bealive will always win, to kill him ( Leviathan killing himself)

 

[Joycap]

@Joycap is it the passage of fate stuff? Because you're going to need more than that for type 5.

Passage of fate stuff is certainly a core part of it, but not it's totality. Again, I'll have to consult SSJ on that.

 

[AKUTO123]

I'm gonna need some scans, but so far you only have like half of the requirements, you need them existing outside of causality resulting in them not changing with the rest of the world as a result.

because they are outside of the stories, they are also outside of causality, and even Hiroshi, who is High 1A, cannot enter or interact with the structure outside of this causality.and hiroshi already outside the regular casualty system of extra universal gods

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

thats still not enough. You need those two to be linked for type 5, if not this is just type 4 Acausality.

If it changes anything, Omega says that there is a complete difference between creation and creator, where both should not correlate in any way since a creator is completely out of existence. They walk in the void, a place where no aspect of reality exists.

I don't see why something like "A character with Aca Type 5 needs to show intangibility to anything that exists" is necessary
The gods have never been touched to begin with, besides being older than existence itself

 

[ImmortalDread]

If they are indeed acausal type 5, then they need to show some uninteractablity.

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

@AbaddonTheDisappointment ehh, is there anything that shows them being unchangeable due to their status in this realm? Because you got the unbound by causality stuff, now you just need the unchangeable statement.

Well in the last type 5 acausal thread these two quotes were used by Reaper to argue for the unchangeable aspect:

Veslyin the Anchorite said that time has no meaning in the Sea of Souls. The warp can give glimpses of the past, the future and the present because within it they are all one. According to him when dealing with its denizens trying to attribute events to a timeframe in terms of past, present or future, is pointless – they must be addressed in terms of absolute actions. -Path of the Renegade

With the departure of the Ark Mechanicus, the infected wound of the translation point snapped shut as the tortured skein of what mortals blissfully accepted as reality reasserted its dominance. The aftershocks of so brutal a manipulation of the laws governing the physical properties of the universe would echo throughout the past and the future, for such concepts as linear time simply did not exist in the warp -Priests of Mars

As for the argument behind these, this was what Reaper said in the last thread and it probably explains it better than I could:

It's Invulnerability because of the implications made by the various statements coming together, for instance the various "Materium laws don't exist in the warp" statements on their own is really only a layered acausality 4 seeing as normal causality doesn't effect the warp, however, backed up by the Priests of Mars quote means that the warp is completely immune to effects that exist in the materium because the laws that govern them just don't exist, and with the additional implications of the Path of the Dark Eldar statement implying what you do needs to be an "absolute action" implies that they're invulnerable because of a lack of causality

To add some extra stuff, there is that quote I posted originally that Slaanesh wasn't effected by its own birth and essentially always existed from the perspective of the Warp. Also in the Priests of Mars quote, while the aftershock of the warp portal affected the materium/realspace, sending echoes of it throughout the past and future, it didn't do anything to the Warp itself, just that the Warp caused those effects to happen within the materium.

@LIFE_OF_KING do u have any scans for Oryx that can justify the type 5?

Just gonna quote all the statements/explanations used for type 5 in this CRT:

...You are no longer bound by causal closure. Your will defeats law. Kill a hundred of your children with a long blade, Auryx, and observe the change in the blade. Observe how the universe shrinks from you in terror.-XVI: The Sword Logic

...Oryx knew that all life could be described as cellular automata, except for that life which understood the Deep or the Sky, and thus escaped causality.- XL: An Emperor For All Outcomes

The deep is the Hive term for the Darkness. Oryx is the most direct link to the Darkness in the entire verse, being able to channel it for his own power. He is an example of "Life that understands the deep", and thus escapes causality, according to this.

Some orders assert that Light and Darkness are not bound by any system of reason or causality.-Bond of Unknowing

"The Light releases us from causality. It smooths the contours of what we can and cannot do."-Creation's Wind

Oryx is not a being of the Light, but this proves that the overarching force of the Light, the antethesis to the Darkness, is able to allow lesser beings to escape causality. Thus, it only seems logical that this privelege would be afforded by the Darkness as well, considering Oryx's status and the other quotes.

...No hypothesis on event mechanism (FLAG ACAUSAL). Bootstrap simulation suggests event is DIRECTED and INIMICABLE (convergent q-Bayes/Monte Carlo probability approaches 1).- Ghost Fragment: Darkness

This is said by Rasputin, a human Warmind. Warminds were ancient AIs constructed for, well, war. Rasputin seems to have better systems of analysis even than the Vex (Who're probably nigh-omniscent as a collective), as he is able to shut the Ghost out from its systems and mess around with it, which the Vex are unable to do without physically corrupting it.

...The Monist Position, or the Deflationary Position, considers the Darkness as a technologically sophisticated force, perhaps a post-Singularity intelligence. Adherents invoke information theory or contend that the universe is a simulation, allowing advanced intelligence to gain weakly acausal powers by bending the rules.-The Darkness

While a thing about The Darkness is that nobody (well, i guess excluding Oryx) really is sure what it is, this is one of the prominent in verse theories, and would prove that beings that are not The Darkness itself are able to escape causality by using The Darkness' power.

...One hypothesis on event mechanism (FLAG ACAUSAL). Possibility of HARD CIVILIZATION KILL EVENT is NONZERO.-Rasputin

 

[ImmortalDread]

• https://vsbattles.com/threads/reviewing-acausality-type-5-in-profile-pages.140529/post-5060819
• https://vsbattles.com/threads/reviewing-acausality-type-5-in-profile-pages.140529/post-5060821
• https://vsbattles.com/threads/reviewing-acausality-type-5-in-profile-pages.140529/post-5060824
• https://vsbattles.com/threads/reviewing-acausality-type-5-in-profile-pages.140529/post-5060825
• https://vsbattles.com/threads/reviewing-acausality-type-5-in-profile-pages.140529/post-5060834
• https://vsbattles.com/threads/reviewing-acausality-type-5-in-profile-pages.140529/post-5060836

Here are profiles. Elder Scrolls may do have clarification, but I barely can't see any, this can go up to 40 profiles if I am not wrong.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Samael_010 read the OP, I literally explained what it means.

@Robo432343 stop saying we already know, post the scan that he’s unchangeable or stop talking. I’m not gonna do this back and forth with you if you’re not going to prove your claim.

@Ovy7 That just sounds like Higher dimensional hax being able to affect these beings. Unless they say that transcending the layers just results in being in different cause and effect rules that wouldn’t give much.

@Samael_010 yeah nothing about this mentions the Leviathan being outside of cause and effect which results in him being unchangeable.

@AKUTO123 again, I’m gonna need scans for these. Do you have any of them that can be posted?

@LIFE_OF_KING yeah no I’m still not seeing it, also I never said they needed to be intangible, I said they need to show being not susceptible to change as a result of them being beyond causality. The whole intangibility shit is only when we’re talking about normal folks interacting with them as without an in lore explanation, it can be used as an anti feat.

@AbaddonTheDisappointment ehh, I’m not exactly seeing the unchangeable nature in both the Warhammer and Destiny stuff. Probably just type 4 for these beings.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

yeah no I’m still not seeing it, also I never said they needed to be intangible, I said they need to show being not susceptible to change as a result of them being beyond causality. The whole intangibility shit is only when we’re talking about normal folks interacting with them as without an in lore explanation, it can be used as an anti feat.

Honestly, I will not waste your time with a verse that doesn't have a page yet. When I finish my revisions I'll come back here

 

[Samael_010]

@Samael_010 yeah nothing about this mentions the Leviathan being outside of cause and effect which results in him being unchangeable.

Well arrent in meta fictional sense the plot is cause and effect? My bad i think the scan really missing alot of context "we dont live in your world" the world is reffering to Hierarchy of Stories and madame rausch here able to escape it because of the young Leviathan, here a better look on how its work in UW

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

This thread is for characters that already have Acausality right? Not for proposing adding an ability to a page?

What if a character has Type 4, and you wanted to debate type 5? Would it be best to post that as a,separate CRT?

 

[AKUTO123]

again, I’m gonna need scans for these. Do you have any of them that can be posted?

That is a novel so ı just send words

Creating that lower body known as a void body was the first step toward becoming a being not of this world.

It was data made of imaginary numbers.

It was space with no time.

It was a place where the laws of physics came to an end.

It was beyond causality.

It was casting aside one’s earthly form.

It was the salvation of all.

Keena took Akuto’s hand.

For his transformation in the negative direction, all of the noisy souls inside him were transferred into her.

Countless voices filled the space between them.

As it is written here, void body is an event that transcends everything outside of everything, and by its very nature its imaginary numbers exceed time, causality and everything in Ichiban.

 

[StorytellingDemonKing]

@AKUTO123 again, I’m gonna need scans for these. Do you have any of them that can be posted?

Here's the scans he was talking about:


His explanation still holds true and is listed on profiles.

 

[AKUTO123]

yeah no I’m still not seeing it, also I never said they needed to be intangible, I said they need to show being not susceptible to change as a result of them being beyond causality. The whole intangibility shit is only when we’re talking about normal folks interacting with them as without an in lore

"Beyond the casualty" that words what means for you ? I don't know and as i said if you don't know show's philosophy diffuclt action explain this . At first consept of the story contain everythink for example if there is a consept then there is a story everythink is a story also casualty a story and void body and tloi transcend everyform the story well void body and tloi transcend every casualty if ı send all context then you have to 3 page because first of all ı send what is the story and that too long
Summary: void body and tloi transcend everyform story and also casualty is a story so both of them transcend everycasualty

 

[AKUTO123]

Here's the scans he was talking about:


His explanation still holds true and is listed on profiles.

I also wrote this but ı guess he didin't see

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

You didn't even give him a chance to respond XD

 

[StorytellingDemonKing]

I also wrote this but ı guess he didin't see

I'm guessing he asked for images, not just text or something.

 

[RaveeCPN]

I'll just say that Madoka's Acausality shouldn't be type 5 and leave.

By this logic, we should classify all type 4s and higher degree of it as type 5.

 

[AKUTO123]

I'm guessing he asked for images, not just text or something.

I think ,both same in the novel

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I'll just say that Madoka's Acausality shouldn't be type 5 and leave.

By this logic, we should classify all type 4s and higher degree of it as type 5.

Why?