Acausal Type 4 General Cleanups

[Jinsye]

So brought to my attention by the Touhou thread, there are some kinks in Acausality type 4 that I don't necessarily agree with.

Acausality Type 4 for Naturally Existing in "Warped Time"
As far as I know, this affects a total of two whole verses (DMC and Touhou) so I'll keep this brief. If there are more then bring them to my attention.

Apparently we accept Acausality type 4 for existing in a world with slightly warped time (examples here and here). The main problem I have with these scans, is that while time is slower (which I will be dubbing as Narnia time)/irregular in the speed that it flows, there is no proof it has any bearing on causality at all.

The reason why we give Acausality to realms with strange time is because causality is affected too. For example if time were to move backwards then that would be some kind of irregular cause and effect.

But, I feel like we absolutely need specifications on the way time works to judge how it affects causality. So naturally existing in a realm with warped time that is never elaborated on shouldn't give type 4 acausality by default, and Narnia time should definitely not give any form of acausality.

The main reason for the latter is that cause and effect are absolutely not different from a slower flow of time. If you punch someone under a time slow, the cause and effect system is still the same. Time is still linearly going in a straight line, regardless of how fast it's going. This means you're still in a very similar cause and effect system with absolutely no irregularities.

The only way Narnia Time would qualify is if it effects causality in a very specific way that makes it irregular so to speak, for example having cause and effect be reversed. Otherwise, the ability shouldn't be given.

Acausality Type 4 for Moving in "Warped Causality"
This is a bit different, and affects a lot more characters. What if a world is proven to have a different system of causality, and an outsider functions completely normally within it?

This shouldn't be grounds for type 4 acausality for the outsider either. The biggest example are the Sonic Super Forms moving normally in a realm with nonlinear time.

Acausality Type 4 is surprisingly not "super resistance to causality manipulation", but it's being on a different system of causality altogether. If you have normal cause and effect in a world with warped cause and effect, that isn't proof of you having the same warped cause and effect. Acausality by it's definition, would require you to function on the same cause and effect as the world.

Coming from a world with normal cause and effect would already act as a pretty big counterpoint to you functioning on the same system as this new world. If it is shown to be a property of the world and not of the character, then the character would at most have resistance to causality being messed with. Not anything that comes from type 4 acausality.

So, the real question is: Why do we assume you function on an entirely different system of causality even in your base world because at one point you walked in a different, weird, world?

 

[Shmooply]

 

[Bobsican]

I agree with the OP

 

[KLOL506]

@Theglassman12 @GilverTheProtoAngelo @EFÍTÉ @Tony_di_bugalu @Mister6ame6 @Cyberblader90 @Dienomite22 @Sevil Natas

UwU

 

[Alexander]

someone invoke me,and when someone invoke me,always weirdness happens

 

[KLOL506]

someone invoke me,and when someone invoke me,always weirdness happens

We did not invoke you, and this is way out of your paygrade fellow padawan. Run along now.

 

[Alexander]

We did not invoke you, and this is way out of your paygrade fellow padawan. Run along now.

ok

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

It may be a good idea to compile a list of characters who would be affected by these changes. The OP has listed DMC, Touhou Project, and Sonic as examples, but there are others like Zagreus from Hades and a number of Final Fantasy characters who possess acausality for similar reasoning. Perhaps it would be a good measure of consistency to see how frequently this sort of reasoning is accepted.

By the way, I'm of the opinion that characters who are native to realms with altered time/causality should possess acausality. It should be assumed that all characters function on the same degree of time/causality as their respective realms; We as humans are bound to the causal and temporal forces of our own world, and it cannot be assumed that a character native to a realm with different time/causality would be bound to those same forces; Ergo, they would not be affected by causality manipulation functioning on "regular" causal and temporal rules, and are thus acausal. Even in the case of slowed or sped up time, ultimately, that changes the process of cause and effect, as they would occur at differing speeds compared to "normal" cause and effect.

For characters who merely move within spaces of altered time/causality, I think the same rules should apply. If a person undergoes direct changes to their flow of time/history, yet are able to function as though nothing ever happened, then clearly their own personal system of cause and effect is beyond change; It exists as a system that ignores the causal/temporal laws of whatever location they are in, which is textbook acausality.

However, I think all of the above shouldn't be placed in contention in the first place if the character in question shows at least some other acausal traits, such as being unaffected by direct time manipulation (not just being in a dimension with weird time) or changes to the past. In cases where other characters are notably affected by the altered flow of time/causality while some aren't, that can also serve as evidence of acausality for those who aren't affected.

I've said my piece here and honestly, I don't feel like debating this forever. Probably gonna unfollow and watch from afar and only comment if I see something blatantly wrong.

TL;DR: Being native to realms with altered time/causality should be enough for acausality, moving in realms with weird time/causality can fine work but should preferably have feats backing it up (or show other people being affected by those effects).

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

I'm pretty sure we already went over this not once, not twice but thrice. Four times with you now :v

The gist of it is that demons just don't care where they are, be it the Human World or the Demon World, they will exist independently from time (for reference time in the demon world is stopped or slowed or faster or nonexistent/divergent or goes backwards), laws, physics, gravity and even space/time paradoxes since they didn't care about them in DMC2. Hell they even existed before the demon world came to be and I quote: " the basic principles of which predate even the creation of the demon world itself".

I know nothing ever mentions causality directly which is something we had to deal in the past too but from what I remember it was agreed that all this shit actually works as an explanation for why demons exist in some form of irregular causality because as it is obvious they operate on a different and mostly independent system from that of the human and demon world.

 

[Jinsye]

Even in the case of slowed or sped up time, ultimately, that changes the process of cause and effect, as they would occur at differing speeds compared to "normal" cause and effect.

But it like, doesn't though.

I'll repeat, the reason why it's not irregular is because cause -> effect still applies. Why we give Acausal type 4 people the ability is because their system is different from "cause making effect" in some way. In Narnia time, cause still makes effect, it's just slightly slower relative to another universe.

I don't see any difference in the mechanics of the process, since speed absolutely does not effect mechanics.

The gist of it is that demons just don't care where they are, be it the Human World or the Demon World, they will exist independently from time (for reference time in the demon world is stopped or slowed or faster or nonexistent/divergent or goes backwards), laws, physics, gravity and even space/time paradoxes since they didn't care about them in DMC2. Hell they even existed before the demon world came to be and I quote: " the basic principles of which predate even the creation of the demon world itself".

Divergent is kind of weird, since it could still mean that cause/effect works normally. The main argument is that a system of causality has to be irregular in terms of how it works. So if time goes backwards then it probably counts for something.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Divergent is kind of weird, since it could still mean that cause/effect works normally. The main argument is that a system of causality has to be irregular in terms of how it works. So if time goes backwards then it probably counts for something.

Like I said it isn't just time but a ton of shit that demons naturally ignore because they are alien to it, that's what let us get acausality type 4.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

But it like, doesn't though.

I'll repeat, the reason why it's not irregular is because cause -> effect still applies. Why we give Acausal type 4 people the ability is because their system is different from "cause making effect" in some way. In Narnia time, cause still makes effect, it's just slightly slower.

I don't see any difference in the mechanics of the process, since speed absolutely does not effect mechanics.

Let me simplify it a bit:

Is a slower/faster flow of time "different" and "irregular" from regular time? If yes, then that's acausality.

Type 4 is not "cause and effect does not occur"; It is "cause and effect occur, but in a manner different from how it is normally perceived", which different flows of time fulfills.

 

[deonment]

Let me simplify it a bit:

Is a slower/faster flow of time "different" and "irregular" from regular time? If yes, then that's acausality.

Type 4 is not "cause and effect does not occur"; It is "cause and effect occur, but in a manner different from how it is normally perceived", which different flows of time fulfills.

Yet cause and effect still occur naturally, X still follows Y, and as such arguments that involve time moving slower should be discarded, as X still follows Y in those scenarios, it is just that the events taking place take more time to occur, and as such is still normal causality.

 

[Jinsye]

For characters who merely move within spaces of altered time/causality, I think the same rules should apply. If a person undergoes direct changes to their flow of time/history, yet are able to function as though nothing ever happened, then clearly their own personal system of cause and effect is beyond change; It exists as a system that ignores the causal/temporal laws of whatever location they are in, which is textbook acausality.

This seems like quite a big stretch.

Assuming a person has their own personal causal system without it ever being stated just because they moved in a world with strange cause and effect shouldn't be the default assumption. We don't force mechanisms onto abilities like that without any explanation. Why should we force one here?

Is a slower/faster flow of time "different" and "irregular" from regular time? If yes, then that's acausality.

The answer to this question is no. Speedwise it is, causality-wise it's not.

Type 4 is not "cause and effect does not occur"; It is "cause and effect occur, but in a manner different from how it is normally perceived", which different flows of time fulfills.

I never said this though.

Cause and effect can still occur yes. But for Narnia time, it is absolutely not different at all. You'd have to really stretch the definition of "irregular cause and effect system" for it to count.

Cause and effect still flow naturally, just slower/faster. Thus, it shouldn't be counted as irregular because no mechanisms are different here.

 

[Vietthai96]

but there are others like Zagreus from Hades

The funny thing about this profile is that despite it was structured pretty good, have almost no scan for all of its justifications, the entire P&A section is "empty" so probably this profile need to be deal with as a whole

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Yet cause and effect still occur naturally, X still follows Y, and as such arguments that involve time moving slower should be discarded, as X still follows Y in those scenarios, it is just that the events taking place take more time to occur, and as such is still normal causality.

Is it the same system of causality as our own? If not, it qualifies as different or irregular.

Like, even under systems far more out of the ordinary the slower/faster time, cause and effect still occur. Type 4 is not the absence of causality.

This seems like quite a big stretch.

Assuming a person has their own personal causal system without it ever being stated just because they moved in a world with strange cause and effect shouldn't be the default assumption. We don't force mechanisms onto abilities like that without any explanation. Why should we force one here?

If the person is immune to external changes of cause/effect, then the implication is that they either have no system of cause/effect at all, or possess their own, individualized system beyond that of universal systems. Both are type 4 acausality.

Frankly, the fact that you use "without it ever being stated" as a detriment seems a little odd to me. Wouldn't we give actual feats of being unaffected by causal systems precedence over statements?

The answer to this question is no. Speedwise it is, causality-wise it's not.

I meat you literally admit it's different, so that 'no' is pretty meaningless.

Time dictates causality. Therefore, altered time means altered acausality. So if you admit that faster/slower time is different than regular time, then it must mean different causality as well.

I never said this though.

Cause and effect can still occur yes. But for Narnia time, it is absolutely not different at all. You'd have to really stretch the definition of "irregular cause and effect system" for it to count.

Cause and effect still flow naturally, just slower/faster. Thus, it shouldn't be counted as irregular because no mechanisms are different here.

The definition of irregular is "Contrary to rule, accepted order, or general practice.". An altered flow of time would clearly be contrary to our accepted order of how time is meant to flow; Therefore, an altered flow of time is fine to use for acausality.

By the way, please stop strawmanning me. Nowhere am I saying that cause and effect do not occur under these systems. They quite obviously do. But the way in which they do so is very obviously different from 'conventional' cause and effect, even if you don't think that difference is very notable.

 

[Jinsye]

Is it the same system of causality as our own? If not, it qualifies as different or irregular.

Like, even under systems far more out of the ordinary the slower/faster time, cause and effect still occur. Type 4 is not the absence of causality.

The definition of irregular is "Contrary to rule, accepted order, or general practice.". An altered flow of time would clearly be contrary to our accepted order of how time is meant to flow; Therefore, an altered flow of time is fine to use for acausality.

By the way, please stop strawmanning me. Nowhere am I saying that cause and effect do not occur under these systems. They quite obviously do. But the way in which they do so is very obviously different from 'conventional' cause and effect, even if you don't think that difference is very notable.

You're accusing me and Deon of strawmanning you when you're strawmanning us. I'm going to ask you to do the same thing and stop strawmanning my points. My point was never "They need an absence of causality to gain acausality type 4". My point was "They need an irregular causal system to gain acausality type 4."

And sure, you can copy paste definitions all you want. But once again, I'll repeat the very same point you seem intent on ignoring.

In a slowed system of time, causality would absolutely not function differently in any sense. Cause leads to effect. There is no distortion, no warping, and no irregularities to the causal system. (Note how I did not say that cause and effect don't exist, so I don't want you to repeat that strawman)

For slower systems of time, causality functions the same. Thus it is not irregular. It is a regular, completely normal system of cause and effect that has no reason to be differentiated from another.

So yes. They are both the same system of causality. It's not irregular, because there are no differences at all with how causality functions. I will repeat this however many times I need to. Narnia and the human world both function on functionally the same causality, since the speed of time has absolutely no bearing on how causality functions. The only way it would count is if time's direction is irregular, not it's speed.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

I agree that time being slowed/sped up wouldn’t be acausality, since causality in principle would still be the same. You would need an irregular time flow where effect precedes the cause and all that to get type 4.

 

[deonment]

Like, even under systems far more out of the ordinary the slower/faster time, cause and effect still occur. Type 4 is not the absence of causality.

I never stated that, I simply said that cause and effect work still work normally under slowed time, X still follows Y and as such isn't an irregular system of causality

Is it the same system of causality as our own? If not, it qualifies as different or irregular.

No, as the system of causality that we abide by works on the principle of "If X occurs, Y follows". If a system of causality does not differ from this, then it is not irregular and its participants would not qualify for type 4.

 

[Agnaa]

Our own universe has examples of different observers having time flow at different speeds. Time dilation like this occurs at all velocities, but is only noticeable when approaching the speed of light. I do not think that every single character in every piece of fiction should get Acausality Type 4 because of this, and so I do not think characters where this sort of time is tied to a different realm should get it either.

Also, this sort of thing fairly commonly happens with travel across timelines. Any things such as "Narnia Time" should not qualify.

Warped Causality is a bit more tricky. If no-one has any particular trouble adjusting to new systems of causality, then it's probably not a power. But if some people do struggle then it gets really weird to call what it should be indexed as, since it's usually unclear how much control the character has over being able to shift over to that different system of causality. I don't know what our default assumption should be for that case, so just put me as neutral ig.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

In a slowed system of time, causality would absolutely not function differently in any sense. Cause leads to effect. There is no distortion, no warping, and no irregularities to the causal system. (Note how I did not say that cause and effect don't exist, so I don't want you to repeat that strawman)

For slower systems of time, causality functions the same. Thus it is not irregular. It is a regular, completely normal system of cause and effect that has no reason to be differentiated from another.

It does not. Cause and effect would occur at differing intervals from 'regular' causal systems. That by itself is 'distorted' compared to our own world. Yes, cause and effect still occur (as I have always been saying, in spite of you suggesting otherwise), but the same is true of most causal systems; Really, you just don't like the notion that something as simple as slower/faster time qualifies.

Like, accuse me of whatever bullshit you want, but ultimately, an altered flow of time fits the description of type 4 acausality perfectly. Until you can prove that it does not, this argument is baseless and I'm wasting my time. Your sole argument here seems to be that it isn't distorted or warped enough, but let me ask you this; If time suddenly shifted to be faster or slower, while you yourself remain unchanged, would the world not be near-impossible to navigate?

So yes. They are both the same system of causality. It's not irregular, because there are no differences at all with how causality functions. I will repeat this however many times I need to. Narnia and the human world both function on functionally the same causality, since the speed of time has absolutely no bearing on how causality functions. The only way it would count is if time's direction is irregular, not it's speed.

Causality running faster/slower is irregular. I ******* know that cause and effect still function. Stop repeating that. But the manner in which they function is objectively different from our own perception of these forces. If I knock over a glass of water in the exact same manner in 3 universes and one spills in 1 second, another at 3 seconds, and the final one in 5 seconds, those are all 3 very distinct outcomes (ie; the effect in cause and effect) that can be achieved through an altered time flow.

Here's another question; If a character uses a power that speeds up or slows down the process of cause and effect, we'd give them causality manipulation, correct? Therefore, a slower/faster flow of time can be considered a different form of causality, and thus, enough to qualify for type 4.

No, as the system of causality that we abide by works on the principle of "If X occurs, Y follows". If a system of causality does not differ from this, then it is not irregular and its participants would not qualify for type 4.

Can you please show me where this is stated on the acausality page?

Type 4 acausality never specifies that the order in which causality occurs must be different; Merely that the causal system of a universe/character should be different in some fashion, which an altered flow of time qualifies for. This is just making things up at this point.

Neither of you seem to have even read the acausality page if you keep just... moving goalposts like this. Type 4 mandates a "different" system of cause and effect. And guess what, an altered flow of time is objectively "different", and thus acausal, no matter how much you try to say otherwise. Don't give me a reason to keep wasting me time here by saying things that are objectively untrue.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Our own universe has examples of different observers having time flow at different speeds. Time dilation like this occurs at all velocities, but is only noticeable when approaching the speed of light. I do not think that every single character in every piece of fiction should get Acausality Type 4 because of this, and so I do not think characters where this sort of time is tied to a different realm should get it either.

Generally speaking, fiction doesn't abide by this rule, and plenty of FTL/MFTL characters have a perfectly normal flow of time in place despite how weird that is IRL. It's not too different from how fiction just ignores how FTL speeds would generate infinite energy, or how space and time are connected. I don't think this should be taken into consideration.

Plus acausality is a state of being, you'd need to have that different time flow be an intrinsic part of your existence in order to qualify, so the speed at which you travel would never be a factor anyways.

 

[Agnaa]

Generally speaking, fiction doesn't abide by this rule, and plenty of FTL/MFTL characters have a perfectly normal flow of time in place despite how weird that is IRL. It's not too different from how fiction just ignores how FTL speeds would generate infinite energy, or how space and time are connected.

We assume that fiction abides by laws of physics until they're shown to break them. So fair, we would not give every single character in every piece of fiction Acausality Type 4, just the ones that are slower than light and don't have anything contradicting there being time dilation.

I don't think this should be taken into consideration.

It is very important that your argument leads to ordinary humans in our reality being type 4 acausals.

Plus acausality is a state of being, you'd need to have that different time flow be an intrinsic part of your existence in order to qualify, so the speed at which you travel would never be a factor anyways.

And simply going to a universe where time flows more slowly is not a part of your being. Any more than being near a black hole, and thus having time dilate, would be.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

We assume that fiction abides by laws of physics until they're shown to break them. So fair, we would not give every single character in every piece of fiction Acausality Type 5, just the ones that are slower than light and don't have anything contradicting there being time dilation.

The characters would still need actual feats of being unaffected by time dilation, which, not only is that something I think would be very rare on this wiki, but is something we could arguably just leave up to PIS or the author's lack of knowledge. Please, show me one example of a sub-FTL character fitting these qualifications, because otherwise, I don't think this point is worth debating because it affects literally nothing.

It is very important that your argument leads to ordinary humans in our reality being type 4 acausals.

They would not. We are quite obviously affected by time dilation. If we've somehow transcended time and are free from the laws of physics, then shit, someone should've told me sooner :v

And simply going to a universe where time flows more slowly is not a part of your being. Any more than being near a black hole, and thus having time dilate, would be.

No. For characters to qualify, they must either 1. have that different flow of time be a standard part of their existence (usually via being native to a realm with different time/causality) or 2. be unaffected by that altered flow of time entirely (which is where my above suggestion to have additional evidence of acausality/other people be affected by those alternate laws would come into play).

Either way, the altered/independent flow of time someone experiences needs to be active 24/7, as a passive state of being. If I recall, there was some discussion over how temporarily fitting the requirements for acausality from an amp or outside circumstances isn't enough for acausality itself, so I think the same logic applies here.

 

[Agnaa]

The characters would still need actual feats of being unaffected by time dilation, which, not only is that something I think would be very rare on this wiki, but is something we could arguably just leave up to PIS or the author's lack of knowledge. Please, show me one example of a sub-FTL character fitting these qualifications, because otherwise, I don't think this point is worth debating because it affects literally nothing.

They would not. We are quite obviously affected by time dilation. If we've somehow transcended time and are free from the laws of physics, then shit, someone should've told me sooner :v

It doesn't sound like these characters affected by "Narnia Time" are unaffected by time dilation. Frankly, I can't even understand how that would work. How could you live in a realm where time flows at a different rate, but not be affected by time flowing at a different rate? I guess you'd just go off some objective time, and appear to be super fast in one realm or super slow in another, but that seems like a very atypical case.

No. For characters to qualify, they must either 1. have that different flow of time be a standard part of their existence (usually via being native to a realm with different time/causality) or 2. be unaffected by that altered flow of time entirely (which is where my above suggestion to have additional evidence of acausality/other people be affected by those alternate laws would come into play).

Either way, the altered/independent flow of time someone experiences needs to be active 24/7, as a passive state of being. If I recall, there was some discussion over how temporarily fitting the requirements for acausality from an amp or outside circumstances isn't enough for acausality itself, so I think the same logic applies here.

If another realm has slower time, characters in both realms are affected by different flows of time. One realm has a slower flow of time, and one realm has a faster flow of time. In our own reality, species from different galaxies would have different flows of time due to having different velocities.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Narnia time wouldn't qualify because they age normally there anyways (and also at the same rate, otherwise the Pevensie siblings would remain kids despite ruling Narnia for decades), but it seems like time is moving in a different rate in their home universe. This is not really acausality because cause and effect are still normal, and the universe of Narnia is completely disconnected to the regular universe there

This is specific, but if any other fiction have acausality that is based on what Narnia did, they wouldn't qualify either

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Whatever, I'm not gonna argue in circles over this. If moving in areas of warped causality is fine to stay (with other evidence of acausality included, like other people being affected) then I'll cope.

 

[ÆONS]

If another realm has slower time, characters in both realms are affected by different flows of time. One realm has a slower flow of time, and one realm has a faster flow of time. In our own reality, species from different galaxies would have different flows of time due to having different velocities.

They'd still be subjected to different states of causality or time if they move from one place to another and choose to settle in a new location so it would not really be acausality for either of them like you seem to suggest. There is a reason why Type 4 grants resistance to Causality and even Fate Manipulation.

Anyway, my overall stance is that I am neutral.

 

[Jinsye]

If the person is immune to external changes of cause/effect, then the implication is that they either have no system of cause/effect at all, or possess their own, individualized system beyond that of universal systems. Both are type 4 acausality.

Why are we assuming their system of cause and effect all of the sudden? That doesn't make any sense with no statements or other evidence of it being the case.

If the person is immune to external changes of cause/effect, then we should just assume that they are resistant to external changes of cause/effect. That is an option.

Once again, we do not assume mechanics without it being clearly stated.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

I'll leave this since it seems like it's focused on 2hou and idk anything about it.

 

[Jinsye]

bump

 

[Jinsye]

This isn't solely touhou by the way, multiple other verses are affected by the second part.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

This isn't solely touhou by the way, multiple other verses are affected by the second part.

Say what others verses, as far as I know, all the verses I'm on have enough evidence, and some treat time and casuality like daily bread

 

[Jinsye]

Sonic off the top of my head, Final Fantasy too.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

So I guess we gucci with DMC or do we have to do this again?

 

[deonment]

DMC is aight

 

[Jinsye]

Bump

 

[Jinsye]

Bump

 

[Reploidnoridomix]

Sonic off the top of my head, Final Fantasy too.

yeah sonic have weird evidence for acau 4 :v