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Prolly something to do with locking the tags behind running speed and not applying it to combat speed or something but IDK, the old guard knew more of it but they're gone now.
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About speed feats with weapons
- Thread starter Furudo_Erika
- Start date
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Well, let's agree to disagree then.
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First of all, if a Human can swing a giant ass sword 1000 times in 1 second, and everyone who he fights can react to those sword swings, we have far branched out of what's normal
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Yeaaah, here's the thing that makes me agree with the OP.
From my experience in studying and doing MA, you really do not need to move at the speed of a weapon to consistently react to it. As long as you move at similar speeds to the arms of the person who is attacking, not the weapon in itself. Due to how angles and movement happens in a 3D equation, the speed of a weapon is significantly higher than what is realistically expected.
I mean, I don't have fast reactions, I have a lot of difficulty in dodging punches in my sparring sessions, but it isn't thaaat hard to parry or block shinai swings that, if we applied the calculations, would give me Superhuman reactions.
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- Thread starter
- #85
^
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Well have you ever dodged a point blank sword swing that was aimed at your neck? Have you ever jumped 3 Meters in the air to dodge a blade that was swung millimeters away from your head? Have you ever reacted to 1000 Sword swings in a second by moving your entire body to avoid the slashes?
Your thinking is stuck in the realms of reality, in fiction, people aren't just reacting to sword slashes, they are flat out jumping entire distances to dodge a point blank sword swings, bobbing and weaving to dodge 1000 Sword swings at once, doing things that no normal human could do
I don't agree with the OP, and I refuse to nuke speed feats performed with weapons at all, I consider a weapon to be the extension of the body, if it's not an absurdly long sword that's like a kilometer long, then I still consider the speed of the sword to be the Combat and Attack Speed of the wielder, weapons and power boosters exist to amplify stats, I understand that, however VSBW Profiles take that into consideration
What your suggesting basically negs most of Bleach Feats as irrelevant because "Well, they used a sword, so it shouldn't scale to them"
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You forgot to add "at the speed of an AR-15 round" but yeah this covers my gripes about OP.
Plus there's a reason why we don't use human senses to measure our physicals and we use high-tech machines to do so.
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I'm not talking about that, and it isn't my point here. I don't approve nuking the feats, I approve of not just scaling the speed to weaponry without giving context.
As I stated some time ago in this thread, of course that there are cases and cases. I'm not denying that it wouldn't apply in any case, nor that there is no value in such feats. The examples you provided are all clear examples when this should matter.
The problem I see is more about the lower speed/human tiers. On the higher tiers, with feats such as you described, it works out. When you get to the lower range of speed, of people of Human to Superhuman speed, you get massively inflated reactions and combat speed by scaling people to weapon speed when they clearly shouldn't.
All the exampls provided would already result in massive speeds even if you only took into account the arm swing speed. (Which is the idea here, methinks. Not to nuke the feats, but to calc based on the arm movement rather than the weapon movement - and even then, with cases) Which I don't worry about that much, I'm more worried about assigning Superhuman reactions to normal people because they blocked someone swinging a pipe to their head or ducked below a sword swing, when under most circumstances, attempting to calc based around the weapon swing makes the speed way higher.
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- #89
I should also mention this isn't about nuking feats.
This is about a factor that inflates the results.
This is about a factor that inflates the results.
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Again, dodging on your own wouldn't wield that great of a number unless you were doing backflips or rotating all your limbs at crazy degrees (weaponry included). Mere head-bobbing and normal ducking not reaching your knees wouldn't cut it.
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Ok, well in that scenario, I can see your point, if we're talking about a reality based verse with little to no super powers, I can somewhat agree, but at that point, it's basically an extreme case by case, and that's what needs to be done, a lot of sword swinging feats are very different and there's no one rule that can be placed down
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"Inflates" is a strong word to throw around a situation that is seemingly being nitpicked here for no reason at all, not to mention that it wouldn't apply to a majority of situations.
Also, you still didn't admit that this wouldn't work in situations where the character swings his weapon separately from his arm like a blender's blades or a keyring chain.
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- #93
A video of Skallagrim also proves it is possible to deflect arrows with a sword, as he actually done; albeit it took a few tries.
So, does this mean he has around Subsonic combat speed then?
So, does this mean he has around Subsonic combat speed then?
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From how close did he do it? How far did he move his arms and blade?
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So he can't do it regularly? It's merely a possibility? How far away from the arrow was he? Was it point blank?
Not nearly as reliable as someone being able to cut down 1000 arrows all at once
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I agree with KLOL and Mitch here
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Plus doing it while being at the safety of 5 to 10 meters from the bow is gonna severely nerf the result of your speed unless the arrow is inches from your face and hasn't experienced velocity drop by then, and even then you'd have to move your forearm a considerable amount to even remotely scale to its full speed.
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This isn't nitpicky, I feel like. It is a fair thing to talk about. I don't have any specific profiles in mind, but I've seen plenty of characters - especially from more realistic series - whose speed was inflated because of this. Even if minor, this is a good thing to adress.
This is very different from a normal, rigid weapon like a sword. There is a reason why a human moving their arms at less than 20 m/s can make a bullwhip strike at supersonic speeds that exceed that of many bullets, and why sectioned weapons in general swing way faster.
This topic mostly adresses rigid weapons, at least I think it should, and these can be argued for that the hting that matters is arm speed.
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That also doesn't even consider that Skallagrim was preparing himself directly to react to the attack, while in fiction, some characters are caught completely off guard by a projectile attack and still react nonetheless
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I was explicitly talking about a character swinging his sword in fiction like a blender or a keyring chain (Or a damn helicopter's blades if you want it simplified).
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Then that's a case that it is clearly fair to scale to the weapon. (Also, sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you talked about sectioned weapons)
One thousand normal swings in a single second could be easily calced as such using the arm swinging motion, which is the OP's point. Ofc, this also depends on how the opponent dodged and if here was any unorthodox motion in that.
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No, the blade should be taken into account as well if it is properly lined up with the arm and not in the opposite direction like in a forward-grip or icepick-grip setup.
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- Thread starter
- #103
That's not how angles work-
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Well I've said my piece, I fully don't agree with not using the length of a normal sword for the speed feat
It changes a great number of calcs for a very small gain
Ok, I'm out now
It changes a great number of calcs for a very small gain
Ok, I'm out now
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- #105
Do I need to make a diagram to explain why you shouldn't use the blade length as well?
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Nothing you say will ever change my mind
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No, cause it won't be accepted anyway lol
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- #108
"Small gain"
Ahem.. Mach 959.45 to Mach 580. I don't think that's a small difference
Ahem.. Mach 959.45 to Mach 580. I don't think that's a small difference
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Bruh
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I'm not gonna sugarcoat it, I'm neutral on this anyways lol
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It is a small gain... Especially when you have to change every single sword swing calc to fit in line with your ideas
And believe me, there are a lot of them
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Not to mention that a lot of verses aren't going to fit with said ideas most of the time.
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Like a few thousand recalcs I think? Yeah, we don't have the math nerd power required for that shit.
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I wasn't talking about angles, I was talking about swords working as an extension of the lower arm, think of it like permanently strapping a blade to your forearm and now that counts as part of your arm length. Like Optimus Prime's arm blades that come out and retract. Same principle with most sword feats except the character is holding the blade with a hand and it's not strapped to the forearm.
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But it still needs to make a swing in an arc. Again, the only difference between a character that swings 1000 times in 1 second, but with normal form, and a person that swings in real life just, I dunno, 1 time in a second or two, is the difference in volume and time frames. The same variables that are used in calcs.
I don't get why the idea would be fine for the second case but not for the first, again, assuming everything else is equal. This is a problem whether the solution is accepted or not - if accepted, then the calcs suffer a downgrade. If not, we can probably scale people in real life to Superhuman speed in all cases.
Having too much to recalc is understandable, as it is a lot of work and it takes too much for a relatively small project - but it isn't a good enough reason to deny an idea that is correct, at least in a normal situation.
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And, it does so in unison with your arm. Look up the Optimus Prime example I just brought up. Which is absolutely going to happen if you're doing flashy 180 degree cuts with your entire arm level with the blade.
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- #117
So, if someone has a galaxy-sized blade extension, does that mean they are now MFTL+?
I don't think so, as explained by EliminatorVenom "As long as you move at similar speeds to the arms of the person who is attacking, not the weapon in itself.
I don't think so, as explained by EliminatorVenom "As long as you move at similar speeds to the arms of the person who is attacking, not the weapon in itself.
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Again with such an extreme example?
There's a big-ass difference between a 1 m sword and a galaxy-sized extension of a blade, in the latter, we can just calculate how much time it took the blade to get from point A to point B because at that point it's gonna be so big that the arc is most likely not going to matter in the long run.
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I have said many times before, if the sword is absurdly long, that's different scenario, but a normal 1-3 Meter length sword is fine
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- #120
Just to prove that a large extension can really increase the results.
Hell, even a 1m blade is over a 2.333x difference in velocity, and a 3m blade is like 5x faster than the arm.
Hell, even a 1m blade is over a 2.333x difference in velocity, and a 3m blade is like 5x faster than the arm.
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