About Fate Manipulation Hax

[The_real_cal_howard]

This isn't about any character in particular, and this isn't yet another Cal hax rant. I'm a bit curious on the ability. It's apparent how the ability works, but moreso than other broken abilities, it's one that seems uncounterable without lolresist. So I ask, how would you write the ability without ruining every iota of tension in the story and how would you write it to be defeatable?

 

[Schnee_One]

Acausality can counter it easily unless it has a feat against it

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Acasuality is essentially lolresist.

 

[InfiniteSped]

"I choose my own fate!" shenanigans seem to be the norm.

 

[Jinsye]

You can just have it not be mentioned for 90% of the story, but then it makes fate manip a bit of a deus ex machina.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

You gotta eventually realize that you can't really introduce OP abilities in a verse and expect it to NOT be OP unless you have lolresist or that you several limit the ability.

Being outside of the range of the fate manip or just lolresist seems like the best bets.

 

[Schnee_One]

Acasuality is essentially lolresist.

I mean by that point your basically labeling out all counters to every Hax ever.

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

Hey Cal, I'd also line to hear what you think about Fate hax somehow bypassing Acauality? I've heard that Sonic can but there was thread explaining that it can't. What do you think?

 

[Antoniofer]

Yeah, Acausality is basically "Screw Destiny" trope (although for some reason users here do not consider that acausality). Other options are having Fate Manipulation to nullify/counter the opposite power, or that the character is protected by a prophecy.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

"Screw destiny" is just fancy resist though.

 

[Dvorak1902]

By giving it to someone who is not meant to be beaten for great part of the story.

But in general I would just try tone it down, giving it a limitation that's not too hard to exploit.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Schnee. Sorry bout that. I normally don't like just having people resist things (despite the fact that the MC for my OS has his main power involve lolresisting) as I find it arbitrary convenience because they just so happen to be immune to something that would involve being written into a corner without it. So I like to think of ways where it can be reasonably taken care of without resorting to that.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Depends on the type of acausality

 

[Ogbunabali]

The thing with fate manip is you either resist it or you give the character with the fate manip some kind of exploitable weakness.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Cal

You c a n n ot have an OP ability in a story unless it's:

1. Resisted

2. Too limited to be useful in all cases

3. Not used by a character involved in the main conflict(s)

4. PIS-ridden

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Yeah. There are certainly types that fate manipulation can't get past, due to the whole "I have no fate to decide" kind of deal. I know my flea Lavos has sort of a passive anti-fate hax in its acausality in that screwing with fate involving Lavos gets you erased to the point where you were never born to begin with.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Like I said, being outside of destiny or something is just an explanation for resist.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Cal

You c a n n ot have an OP ability in a story unless it's:

1. Resisted

2. Too limited to be useful in all cases

3. Not used by a character involved in the main conflict(s)

4. PIS-ridden

I mean...for a lot abilities hax or not, they can miss. Or get blindsided/distracted.

 

[TriforcePower1]

Just put some limits, like making it touch based.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Or be GER.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Then they're limited or not OP enough.

You could just make Fate manip needs to touch the enemy first or something, but that's not what fate manip usually is.

 

[Antoniofer]

If you want to known about powers and their weaknesses (if any), I'll suggest you to take a look into Powerlisting, so you can have an idea.

 

[TriforcePower1]

I mean, if you need to balance things while still having OP powers, you need to limit them. There's a reason most of the non-time related stands are either touch, projectile or sight based, but rarely thought based, despite abilities being quite haxy.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Saber (Caesar)'s Fate hax. It gives him one free hit.

Baam, resolved.

 

[TriforcePower1]

A better way of keeping the ability OP without it breaking the setting may be CIS. Give it to the main hero of the story, but maybe due to trauma or honor or whatever you want, he doesn't want to use the ability to win his fights. Or have the main conflict of the story with secondary characters, that don't want the main character to use his ability to let them win as they would feel like cheating and/or wanted to win the fight by themselves.

 

[Antoniofer]

What that Caesar does sounds more like Probability manipulation tho (although, those are similar powers).

 

[Ionliosite]

In a similar way to Ikki, via skillz.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

It could be possible to negate it with some sort of passive power nullification field, or barrier around someone, right?

 

[Wokistan]

1: power null

2: have some other power interfere with it. Like say you can manipulate probability or something. Use your probability power to interfere with the fate. You can also say that this ties up both powers and makes them unusable (similar to the "lol why doesn't the emperor just heal himself and fix everything" because hes too busy with chaos) so it knocks out 2 birds with one stone

3: ambushes/assassinations. All the firepowwe in the world is useless if you don't get the chance to use it. Never let the fate manipulator know they're in a fight.

4: give people non arbitrary resistances. Maybe they gotta go get some weird magic spell, or acquire esoteric properties in another way, or enlist the aid of another fate manipulator, or go get protection from some god/sufficiently powerful entity.

 

[Antoniofer]

1. That would be a specific type of power null, or the Fate Manipulation is made through the use of another power. For example, character use magic to alter the fate of others, in that case, anti-magic or similar can unmake it (not cuz the anti-magic negate fate, but it negate the power that does that).

2. Generally, prob manipulation is an application of fate manip (fate is more broad), so I believe the last one its "stronger". of course, that doesn't means its unaffected, prb manip may mess with the fate manip of the other.

3. This can apply to any non-passive power tho. So yeah, you're right.

4. yeah, Acausality its the most common way to be immune, or having prob/fate manip to counter as stated above.

 

[Wokistan]

5: be like Oryx and the Numidium and have "lol no" as a power

 

[Antoniofer]

Oryx is paracausal tho, so he is covered by 4.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

My main rule is always just having the power limited in some measure. What makes abilities really OP most of the time is that they are all encompassing.

Imagine fate hax that relies on how much you think you will succeed, and the person in question has a strong will but isn't unbreakable. Imagine as well fate hax that only steers towards a certain direction, but someone witty or with the right power can use that to his advantage. Think too, if if where to only work for a certain number of things or under certain conditions.

Your fate hax only makes your sword always hit when... you have a sword. And being able to always hit doesn't equate being immune to disarming. Stuff like that.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I think Sailor Moon did it very well. The fate manipulation was built into the fairy tale theme of that arc, and the way to get passed, a sort of 'true love's kiss" was nice way of delivering a lolresitance