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About Dragon Ball Canonicity...

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Zamasu_Chan

Zamasu_Chan

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So I have no idea how many times this has been discussed but DBZ Kai should definitely be the DBS Anime. It could be simply summed up as DBZ Manga —> DBS Manga and DBZ Kai —> DBS Anime for consistency but there's more to it.

First off there are characters that never appeared in the DBZ manga that are indeed filler characters that suddenly appear in DBS. These characters would include Pirozhki, Caroni, Miss Piiza and Gregory. There are possibly more characters but these are enough to give an example. It wouldn't make sense to have these filler characters appearing when they weren't in the manga. Especially Gregory. Gregory has been around since the Saiyan Saga and was made by Akira Toriyama himself. He never appears in the manga or the DBS manga, but he's in Kai and Super, and that's not even it. Linking the DBZ Manga to the DBS Anime creates a huge plot hole.

In the Z manga Future Trunks was able to use super saiyan and even train with Gohan while using it. However in the Z anime Trunks goes ssj for the first time after Gohan's death. In the DBS anime there's a flashback to where Trunks goes ssj for the first time like the anime. There are even other flashbacks to DBZ Kai from DBS even sharing the same Kai voice acting. See how big of a plot hole / contradiction that is?

Speaking of con traditions: "Due to considerable contradictions, we do not consider Dragon Ball Kai as part of the main canon, and strictly use the original manga and Dragon Ball Super for scaling the characters." What condtradictions? If this is the whole thing about Hell then that's not a contradiction, that's a retcon. I have a whole list of filler that's in DBZ Kai and I've read through it and saw no contradictions IIRC. I don't have a link so I'll have to copy and paste a wall of text later in the thread.

Kai directly connects to the Super anime continuity and it's quite dishonest to say otherwise. As I said before isn't simply DBZ Kai —> DBS Anime = Anime continuity. DBZ Manga —> DBS Manga = manga continuity.
 
Honestly I was saying this for awhile but pretty much all Kai discussions were shut down after those threads went downhill fast.
 
DB Kai essentially isn't taken into account anymore because DBS Broly exists.
 
I'm neutral to this topic honestly, though the OP does make sense IMO.
 
Then again the thread does kinda make sense (Except for the Planet Vegeta part).
 
DragonEmperor23 said:
Okay, I think this could get by as long as no one devolves it by name calling or insults.
Click to expand...
No one has to do that, there's no reasons to do so.

Anyway, I guess OP has a point (I always saw Gregory's existance in DBS quite paradoxical), but I will remain neutral at the time.
 
No reason to care for Kai when it would only affect the DBS anime continuity and all of the relevant stats from super far surpass whatever feat may come from Kai, if you want DBZ anime feats just look at toei verse versions of the characters because it's practically the same thing.
 
AguilaR101 said:
No reason to care for Kai when it would only affect the DBS anime continuity and all of the relevant stats from super far surpass whatever feat may come from Kai, if you want DBZ anime feats just look at toei verse versions of the characters because it's practically the same thing.
Click to expand...
It would upgrade a lot of the fodder in the ToP.
 
I obviously agree with using Kai as a canon source for the reasons outlined above, along with the manga, and have said as much before. (Personaly I even accept Z anime for several reasons, but Kai would be the more recent, shortened version of Z).

The argument of the jump in power from Cell to Buu being a reason not to use Kai was always flawed to begin with since massive jumps in power happen all the time in DB, and the Z fighters literaly train for 7 years between the two arcs, and Goku get's SSJ3, a new form on top of that to equal Buu, so the jump in power is justified in series. Not to mention we have no idea how far into Solar system level Cell already was, just that he could blow away the solar system (the planets, the oort cloud, we don't know for sure). So it isn't really a direct contradiction anyway.

Have there been some retcons in Super, sure, but they also apply even in the origional manga so that is hardly a good enough reason by itself to ignore Kai. Super actualy includes anime only characters and events, and flashbakcs taken from the anime itself after all. Clearly the writers and animators are using the old animes as referance and considering it to be part of the timeline when writing Super if they have this stuff included in it.
 
It's not as simple as saying DBZ Manga —> DBS Manga and DBZ Kai —> DBS Anime though. Both DBS anime and DBS manga adapt the same script given by toriyama and hence they are both equally canon continuations of his source material i.e the DB manga.

Like you said, Gregory wasn't in the DB manga but Toriyama designed Gregory himself and DBS anime used it, so he became canon. If Trunks' transformation is portrayed differently in the DB manga, then it has been retconned. Simple as that.

Now I'm neutral on whether or not we should consider Kai as a part of the main canon since it is "Original Akira Toriyama Cut Version", but I don't think we're discussing that in this thread.

Canon 3
 
Minimal attention. Toriyama just hands his original script to Toyotaro and his job as the creator is done. After that it's totally Toyotaro's adaptation and Toriyama just gives his consent to whatever creative liberties Toyotaro takes when he consults him.

The same script is also handed to the writers at Toei and adapted by them. How much the writers at Toei interact with Toriyama is not known. But their source is same, and hence they are equally canon to the same thing.
 
Although, I don't think that Gregory appeared in the anime makes him canon, its a toei's characters used in toei's works, in order to be canon it would need to appear or being mentioned in the script, movies and manga.
 
We don't have enough information about Toriyama's script. If we had, we would've considered it as the main canon. But in this scenario, what's in the script doesn't matter. The final product we get, the thing which exists in front of us, the DBS anime and manga, is what truly matters and is considered canon. Therefore Gregory is canon.
 
Dudes. The fact that TOEI used some elements from the classic anime in Super does not mean that the whole anime is Canon. Hell, this isn't even new to Super, it happens in the classic Manga as well (Bardock, Kami Dende, etc)
 
Welp, technically everything common between anime, manga and movies (the ones written by Tori) would be the main canon, however that would be pretty extrict, since several stuff wouldn't qualify as canon including SSBKK and CSSB (except by few exceptions, like SS Black).
 
Here's all the filler. Tell me if you think anything contradicts anything in Super.

Opening scene of Dragon Ball Z up until the farmer with shotgun is shown (in episode "The New Threat"). Kept in Dragon Ball Kai.

Goku running on Snake Way and deciding to jump instead of running; he misses his landing and almost gets dragged down to Hell by shadowy hands (one of the few filler segments that actually remains in Dragon Ball Kai).

King Kai's pet Gregory does not exist in manga (but it is one of the characters invented for the anime by Toriyama himself). The whole training phase where Goku has to hit him with a hammer is filler (most of the episode "Goku's Ancestors"; however, the "hitting Gregory with a hammer" footage does remain in Dragon Ball Kai).

Master Roshi and assorted characters watching the fight with the Saiyans on TV, and later, Fortuneteller Baba's Crystal Ball (though some of the footage of them watching the television was retained in Dragon Ball Kai).

Gohan insulting Nappa's mother (or saying that he smells as in the English versions) is filler. This scene is however present in Dragon Ball Kai.

A scene in "The Prince Fights Back" of Bulma taking a bath while she receives word from her father that Goku is on his way to Namek (the scene is kept in Dragon Ball Kai, except for the part at the end when she stands up and bends over with soap suds covering her explicit areas).

Footage of a Frieza soldier finding the village Vegeta attacked, killing the last survivor, and subsequently being killed by Frieza for this. In the manga it is Appule who reports to Frieza and he is not killed (Dragon Ball Kai uses the existing anime version of this rather than redoing the scene with Appule as it was in the manga).

Gohan being inked by the snail-like creature on top of Vegeta's Dragon Ball when getting it out of the water (Dragon Ball Kai retains the snail creature but gets rid of the inking scene).

Bulma's decision to go and get the seven Dragon Balls, and her trip through Namek, even getting chased by near clones of the T-Rex Gohan ran from on Earth, and the pterodactyl Goku fought as a child, are not in the manga; there, she just stays where she was hiding (in episodes "Incredible Force!", "Frieza Approaches", and "Goku is Ginyu and Ginyu is Goku"). Kept in Dragon Ball Kai.

Vegeta's attack to Frieza's spaceship was not in the manga, as there were not any soldiers left guarding it (in episode "Calling the Eternal Dragon"). In the manga, Vegeta just entered the empty ship. Dragon Ball Kai creates a plot hole in regard to this: it only shows a scene of Vegeta defeating a small group of guards outside the ship; yet later with Krillin, Gohan, and the injured Goku with him, he walks through the inside of the ship filled with the bodies of Frieza's dead soldiers. <—

The Ginyu battle at Frieza's ship is longer in the anime. In the anime, Ginyu is in Goku's body longer, and actually manages to get "in control" for a while and pose a threat to Krillin and Gohan. Additionally, there is extra footage of Vegeta thrashing Ginyu once Ginyu is back in his original body. In the manga, Ginyu becoming a frog happens almost instantly after he is back to his original body. Dragon Ball Kai maintains most of the footage of Vegeta beating up Ginyu in his native body.

Gohan having some thought scenes about what it would be like living with his father trapped in Ginyu's body (although this is based loosely on a drawing from a manga chapter cover, and is kept in Dragon Ball Kai).

King Vegeta's story, told by Frieza (in episode "Fighting Power: One Million??", although some King Vegeta flashbacks appear in later episodes of Kai).

The section when Frieza chases Krillin and Krillin hides in the cracks of an island (this scene was kept in Dragon Ball Kai).

Bulma switching bodies with Captain Ginyu (in episodes "Frieza's Boast", "Bold and Fearless" and "Embodiment of Fire"; this scene is retained in Dragon Ball Kai).

Goku having a flashback about dead Saiyans and hearing from Vegeta, as well as a flashback about his various friends on Earth while trapped underwater (these were retained in Dragon Ball Kai).

The entire fight between Goku and Frieza is also packed with fillers, mostly the scenes where Frieza is winning against Goku (in episodes "Embodiment of Fire", "Trump Card" and "Keep the Chance Alive") and the fight with Goku as Super Saiyan (episodes "A Final Attack", "Approaching Destruction", "Duel on a Vanishing Planet" and "Pathos of Frieza," although a lot of the "Frieza winning" scenes were retained in Kai).

Goku's transformation into a Super Saiyan. In the manga, the transformation is a near instantaneous reaction to Krillin's death at the hands of Frieza (in episode "Transformed at Last"). The anime version of it takes several minutes and was understandably left unaltered in Dragon Ball Z Kai.

After reaching his 100% Max Power form, Frieza was able to take on Goku for a short time, before his power stamina started to wear down. In the manga, Frieza was never a match for Super Saiyan Goku (although Dragon Ball Kai does retain many of the scenes where Frieza has the upper hand).

Gohan returning to challenge Frieza after Goku is knocked into a lava pit. In the manga, Goku gets knocked into an underwater mountain instead and re-emerges soon after (episode "Gohan Returns"; this scene was kept in Dragon Ball Kai, albeit in a shorter version).

Scene of Vegeta, after being resurrected, flying off to the site of the Eternal Dragon and seeing Frieza and Goku in his Super Saiyan form (in episode "The Last Wish"). This scene was also kept in Dragon Ball Kai. In the manga, Vegeta did not get his first look at the Super Saiyan transformation until Trunks is introduced.

Dr. Brief showing Vegeta the new spaceship he made, and Vegeta subsequently cruising off into space. Was also kept in Dragon Ball Z Kai.

Much of the footage of the Namekians hanging out at the Capsule Corporation. Was also kept in Dragon Ball Z Kai.

In the manga, the wishes being made with the Namekian Dragon Balls on Earth are only referenced; Porunga being summoned is shown, but the wishes are not actually shown being granted. The anime adds scenes of the dead Dragon Team coming back to life, including a rather comical scene where Yamcha falls in a fountain when revived, but then proceeds to hug Bulma and tell her how much he missed her. Additionally, a scene is added where the Namekians bid farewell to the Earthlings, including a sad scene where teary-eyed Dende and Gohan say goodbye to one another. This was also retained in Dragon Ball Z Kai.

This saga acts as the sequel to the movie Dragon Ball Z: Dead Zone, and is absent from the manga. The saga takes place between the Frieza Saga and the Trunks Saga. This includes Vegeta's trip in outer space in an attempt to track down Goku. The saga is completely cut out of Dragon Ball Kai.

The events in episode "Frieza's Counterattack", up until the last few minutes, are completely absent from the manga, including Gohan's new tutor, his dream, Krillin's training, and Vegeta's return. In the manga, Vegeta never went out into space at the end of the Frieza saga. The scenes of Vegeta living at Capsule Corp. are all fillers as well. This is retained in Dragon Ball Z Kai.

The flashback with King Cold looking for Frieza's remains after the destruction of planet Namek, and Frieza's reconstruction and becoming "Mecha Frieza" (in episode "The Mysterious Youth"). This is also kept in Dragon Ball Z Kai.

The scenes of Frieza's men being killed by Trunks are extended in the anime. Additionally, a scene is added where Frieza executes one of his own men for cowardice by slicing his hand through the coward's chest. Dragon Ball Z Kai cuts the scene of Frieza doing this, though this soldier lying on the ground with a large hole in his chest can be seen in later frames.

The dialogues between Future Trunks, Frieza and King Cold, as well as the fight, are slightly extended in the anime, as well as Trunks' Super Saiyan transformation (in episode "Another Super Saiyan"). In the manga, Frieza only gets in one attack against Trunks, while in the anime there are several different attempts by Frieza to kill Trunks, including using the Death Ball technique he used to destroy Planet Vegeta (which Trunks catches effortlessly). Is also kept in Dragon Ball Z Kai.

King Cold begging for his life after Trunks blows a hole in his chest (in episode "Welcome Back Goku"). Is also kept in Dragon Ball Z Kai.

The flashback where, after Goku defeats Frieza on Namek, he looks for a way to escape the planet, and his trip to Yardrat, is mostly composed of fillers (in episode "Goku's Special Technique"). Goku's visit to Yardrat is given an explanation in the manga, but it does not actually show the Yardrats. Is also kept in Dragon Ball Z Kai.

The footage of Goku training with Gohan and Piccolo in preparation for the androids' imminent arrival is filler. Same goes for Vegeta's training inside the gravity room, and the training of the rest of the Z Fighters (in episodes "Goku's Special Technique" and "Z Warriors Prepare"). The manga only shows them training in a couple of panels. Is also kept in Dragon Ball Z Kai.

Cell showing up at an airport, attempting to drain a girl and her little brother of their bio-mass, which leads to a fight with Krillin is filler. (retained in Kai)

Mr. Satan's disciples Pirozhki and Caroni and their agent Miss Piiza do not appear in the manga. Despite this, they do appear in Dragon Ball Z Kai.

The scene during the final beam struggle between Gohan and the rejuvenated Perfect Cell is extended by fillers. In the anime, Piccolo, Yamcha, Tien, Krillin, and Vegeta repeatedly launch full-scale attacks at Cell in an attempt to distract him so Gohan can finish him off. In the manga, Vegeta is the only one to attack, which led to Cell's defeat. Footage of the other Z Fighters launching unsuccessful attacks remains in Dragon Ball Z Kai.

This saga is absent from the manga (although some clips from it are shown in the final Cell Saga episode of Dragon Ball Kai). <—

The Cell Games Reenactment (falsely but humorously reenacting the fight between Cell) video shown before the 25th World Martial Arts Tournament starts is anime filler. (Kept in Dragon Ball Z Kai.)

Killa attempting to touch Spopovich to tell him it's his turn to fight, only to be shocked. (Kept in Dragon Ball Z Kai.)

When Piccolo finds out "Shin" is the Supreme Kai, we briefly see shadowy figures of the four Kais and Grand Kai, as those that are "under" the Supreme Kai. (Kept in Dragon Ball Z Kai.)

The Vegeta/Pui Pui fight is much shorter in the manga. In the manga, Pui Pui is killed almost immediately after the teleport to his homeworld. In the anime, Vegeta messes with him a little longer before striking the Double Galick Cannon. The scene of Vegeta taking on a hopping, boxing stance before killing him is filler. Kept in Dragon Ball Z Kai.

Babidi's men running to retrieve Yakon to fight at Stage Two, only to find themselves eaten alive by Yakon in his shadowy resting place. In the manga, Babidi orders his men to retrieve Yakon, but it is not shown happening and the first glimpse of Yakon in the original manga is him emerging from the Stage Two door. Kept in Dragon Ball Z Kai.

Dabura meditating prior to fighting Gohan. In the manga, Dabura is not shown going anywhere else before appearing on Stage Three soon after Yakon was killed. Dabura still uses the meditation chamber in Dragon Ball Z Kai, but this is shortened drastically improve the pacing of the show.

The scene in which Babidi transports Dabura and Gohan, Goku, Supreme Kai, and Vegeta to another planet for their duel. In the manga, this fight is first shown "in progress" after it had already begun there. Kept in Dragon Ball Z Kai.

Large portions of the fight between Gohan and Dabura, such as the entire time Gohan fights in his base form, are fillers. Dragon Ball Z Kai reduces the scene where Gohan is shown fighting in his base form.

Large portions of the Goku vs. Majin Vegeta are also fillers, for example the beam struggle. Most was kept in Dragon Ball Kai

Lots of the stuff that happens backstage during and after the tournament is filler. Examples include Goten and Trunks impersonating Mighty Mask's voice in the dressing room to fool the World Tournament Announcer (this is kept in Dragon Ball Z Kai), and Mr. Satan emerging from the showers backstage, only to have his towel fall off in front of the news reporters.

Supreme Kai's flashback discussing Majin Buu destroying several planets and a galaxy. Kept in Dragon Ball Z Kai.

Babidi's "Electric Slime" attack against Piccolo, before Babidi is sliced in half (kept in Dragon Ball Z Kai).

Scenes of Bulma and company tracking down the Dragon Balls. This includes the comical scene of Master Roshi stopping a monster that has a Dragon Ball by farting on it (kept in Dragon Ball Z Kai).

The scene in which Idassa and Ikosa's mother revealed Trunks' place of residence to Babidi. In the manga, Babidi finds out where Trunks lives but it is never explained how he does so. (kept in Dragon Ball Z Kai).

Buu and Babidi visiting a town during their reign of destruction, in which Babidi is attacked by a woman in a bakery for trying to steal, who is transported into the air outside of the bakery in a compromising situation (kept in Dragon Ball Z Kai).

Goku's Super Saiyan 3 demonstration on Kami's Lookout is filler (kept in Dragon Ball Z Kai).

The fight between Goten, Trunks, and Mr. Popo is completely filler (kept in Dragon Ball Z Kai).

All scenes of Trunks trying to find the Dragon Radar at Capsule Corporation are filler. (kept in Dragon Ball Z Kai).

Dabura's arrival in Other World, and being sent to Heaven instead of Hell (kept in Dragon Ball Z Kai).

The fight between Gotenks and Innocent Buu is filler. In the manga, it is referred to, but not shown (kept in Dragon Ball Z Kai).

All scenes after Bee was healed by Innocent Buu and before Mr. Satan was shot were filler. In the manga Mr. Satan is shot immediately after Buu heals Bee. Also, Mr. Satan is shot from behind in the anime. Another difference is that Majin Buu repairs the house with more clay, while in the manga, it remains destroyed (kept in Dragon Ball Z Kai).

The scene when Super Buu assaults the Z Fighters at Kami's Lookout and turns them into chocolate to eat, while Piccolo and Gotenks are still trapped in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber consists of fillers. The event did occur in the manga, but was not depicted. (Kept in Dragon Ball Z Kai.)

The fight between Vegito in his base form and Super Buu. In the manga, Vegito immediately transforms into a Super Saiyan, while in the anime, he first fights Buu in his normal state. (Kept in Dragon Ball Z Kai)

The segments that feature Dabura in the afterlife joining Videl, Bulma and Chi-Chi on their search for Gohan, are all fillers (removed in Dragon Ball Z Kai).

Major portions of the action inside of Buu's head are also fillers. Examples are Goku and Vegeta encountering the huge worms, as well as them fighting thought forms of Super Buu in the shape of Gohan, Gotenks and Piccolo (removed in Dragon Ball Z Kai).

Buu getting an upset stomach from what Goku and Vegeta are doing inside his body, and having to use an outhouse, comically leading to Mr. Satan complaining about it (kept in Dragon Ball Z Kai).

The footage shown in the anime of Kid Buu fighting the Supreme Kais five million years ago is filler. It is not shown in the manga, only referenced (kept in Dragon Ball Z Kai).

The fight between Super Saiyan 2 Goku and Kid Buu is completely filler. In the manga, Goku goes straight to Super Saiyan 3 where in the anime, he goes Super Saiyan 2 first (kept in Dragon Ball Z Kai).

"Celebrations with Majin Buu" and "He's Always Late", the two episodes taking place in between the defeat of Kid Buu and the 10 years later, are all fillers. The manga jumps 10 years later almost immediately after the defeat of Kid Buu. They are also the only two filler episodes to be kept in Dragon Ball Z Kai.
 
I do not remember the anime with detail enough to known if those scene do not contradict it, but at the naked eye do not seems like it.
 
Didn't Toriyama himself make filler? And the First episode of Super it shows what happened last episode which was in Kai.
 
It's not about contradictions or not. If simply not contradicting the source material was enough for it to be considered "canon", 99% of Anime Adaptations would be used for feats and scaling. That's not how it works.

The Manga is the original work by the original author, and so holds the highest level of canonicity, with the original Toei Manga being outright non-canon and the revised Kai Cut of the anime being at best a secondary source.
 
Honestly if you want DB kai feats to be considered make a separate profile because the main ones we have currently are strictly for the OG manga and Dragon Ball Super.
 
I have a question though. Since Kai is a secondary canon can we use statements from there as long as they aren't contradicted?
 
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