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About Celestialsapiens Existence Erasure

ProfessorKukui4Life

ProfessorKukui4Life

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I made it known before I had issues with this ability being added but I didnt make a thread specifically for it earlier. Might as well make that thread now. So after an earlier thread, Alien X and Celestialsapiens were given Existence Erasure because of a statement made by Servantis on how Ben could one day "wish everything out of existence". This is also currently being used as part of the justification for 2-B Alien X/Celestialsapiens.

However, The Everlasting and I talked about this earlier and this has several holes to it. But before I get to my own issues, i'll post what Ever thought about this when I showed him the thread.

"Yeah that's way too vague. We don't know if he's specifically referring to Alien X with that statement, just that it's something Ben could do in general with the power of the Omnitrix. Remember there's literally over a million aliens in the Omnitrix, Servantis could've been referring to any of them. Hell, the fact that he says Ben could "perhaps" transform into a Celestialsapien alone debunks him referring to Alien X. From that statement it doesn't seem like Servantis even knew about Alien X in the first place."

Basically, The Everlasting's point here is that while Servantis did make that statement regarding Ben, nothing proves he's specifically talking about Alien X being the one to have that ability. The Omnitrix has over a million aliens residing in it, and without clear indication, Servantis could've been talking about a plethora of aliens besides Alien X. Not only that, Servantis says Ben could perhaps turn into a Celestialsapien. Again, perhaps. That means Servantis is guessing Ben could become a Celestialsapien. Which means Servantis didn't know about Alien X being one of Ben's existing Aliens in the Omnitrix, which has to mean he couldn't have been specifically referring to Alien X about erasing everything in existence.

Now, adding my ow issues about this, im unconvinced that this is even existence erasure in the first place despite what was said. I feel Servtantis was going more off of belief rather than any absolute certainty when stating this. After all, eve IF he was talking specifically about Alien X, he's basing his claim of existence ending off of Ben recreating a single universe easily. This just seems more like Servantis hyping Ben's power up to a hyperbolic flowery degree because of Ben pulling off a feat thats FAR above Servantis's paygrade and above and beyond anything Servantis has ever experienced. If a random person walked up to a 4-A and believed they could destroy the whole universe, you wouldn't seriously argue them to be 3-A would you? No. It's just the perspective of a fodder perceiving a power ridiculously superior to them and overhyping them.

For mine, and Ever's reasonings, Alien X and Celestialsapiens should lose their Existence Erasure if this is the only reason why they have it here.
 
The thing is he specificly speaks about how he could have a Celestialsapien form then says he could one day erase everything out of existence, which means he isn't talking about any other alien plus he would have mentioned an alien we never heard of if he wasn't refering to Alien X having this power. Also this is a flashback, so Alien X recreating the Universe didn't happen yet so he isn't over hyping Alien X based off of that feat.
 
The main issue Ever pointed out about that though is that he says Ben could perhaps become a Celestialsapien. That already shows Servantis didn't already know Ben could become Alien X, which means theres no way "one day wish everything out of existence" couldve meant specifically for Alien X.

Otherwise, Servantis would've flat out said Ben can become one.
 
That doesn't even make sense, he is saying if he has a Celestialsapien form in general then he could one day wish everything out of existence plus we know that Alien X is his most powerful alien and if he was thinking it was a different kind of alien species he would have mentioned it
 
Thats the problem. It's guesswork. Just because he says "perhaps become a celestialsapien" and then goes to say "one day he can wish everything out of existence" doesn't mean Servantis meant "if he can become a celestialsapien, he can wish everything out of existence".

The Omnitrix has millions of aliens after all, Servantis couldve meant any of them.
 
The thing is that is a flawed assumption that he could possibly be talking about any of those millions of alien species and do you hear any other alien species rivaling Celestialsapiens in being known as the most powerful besides Contemellia or Naljians who are still known as weaker and if he was talking about powerful aliens Ben could possibly turn into Servantis would have mentioned it along with Tokust'ars and Celestialsapiens
 
Also once again this is a flashback of course he doesn't know about Alien X then, which is why he says perhaps he could change into a celestialsapien, one day this grimy child could just wish everything out of existence
 
Servantis' statement is that with a Celestialsapien form Ben could one day erase all of existence, this means that any Celestialsapien can erase existence and especially the prime example of said species which Ben 4 years later decided to call Alien X. This is purely Servantis, who is an extraordinary genius (he is the one behind Aggregor) or maybe even a supergenius, knowing what Celestialsapiens can do and then applying it to Ben specifically.

Likewise Servantis overhyping said statement is also wrong since Alien X didn't recreate the universe till 5 years later and before you say "how does he know about their power then", the same way he knows about parallel universes and the same way Aggregor knows where the pieces to the Map of Infinity are located, by doing research.

Edit: apparently I misremembered a bit, but it comes down to the same thing.
 
EpicCookie12342 said:
Also once again this is a flashback of course he doesn't know about Alien X then, which is why he says perhaps he could change into a celestialsapien, one day this grimy child could just wish everything out of existence
Click to expand...
This is twisting context up. Servantis never says Ben could wish everything out of existence specifically because he can become a Celestialsapien. He guesses Ben can become one, hence why he said perhaps become a Celestialsapien. And the, goes on to say Ben could wish everything out of existence.

Your making connections based on assumption. And if it's a flashback, then it definitely means he didnt have Alien X or celestialsapiens in mind when saying this.
 
He literally says Celestialsapien right before making that statement. Also we know Celestialsapiens are the strongest alien in the Omnitrix so even if it's Alien Y Servantis is thinking about instead of Alien X, Alien X would still be superior to Alien Y... this is arguing some real semantics right now. Heck Celestialsapiens are the strongest source of power in the universe which refers to hax according to you, no matter how you slice or dice this, Alien X can erase all of existence.
 
This is twisting context up. Servantis never says Ben could wish everything out of existence specifically because he can become a Celestialsapien. He guesses Ben can become one, hence why he said perhaps become a Celestialsapien. And the, goes on to say Ben could wish everything out of existence.

Your making connections based on assumption. And if it's a flashback, then it definitely means he didnt have Alien X or celestialsapiens in mind when saying this.

He pretty much does, after saying he could possibly become a Celestialsapien he says he could wish everything out of existence, the only one trying to make large leaps of logic is you plus as I said before what other alien species could he be refering to that could erase all of existence besides Celestialsapiens because if there was another species he would have mentioned them along with Celestialsapiens when talking about powerful aliens
 
>He literally says Celestialsapien right before making that statement.

No he didn't. He said he can "perhaps become a celestialsapien". He's guessing. Servantis did not know of Alien X's existence in the Omnitrix or else he wouldnt guess Ben becoming one.

>Also we know Celestialsapiens are the strongest alien in the Omnitrix so even if it's Alien Y Servantis is thinking about instead of Alien X, Alien X would still be superior to Alien Y... this is arguing some real semantics right now. Heck Celestialsapiens are the strongest source of power in the universe which refers to hax according to you, no matter how you slice or dice this, Alien X can erase all of existence.

No, it means that Alien Y gets the existence erasure and becomes scaled to nothing. This isn't arguing semantics. Your literally using guesswork that Servantis is referring to Celestialsapiens specifically all because of him thinking Ben could possibly become one. Thats major speculation.

>He pretty much does after saying he could possibly become a Celestialsapien he says he could wish everything out of existence

Or he's referring to one of the other millions of Aliens Ben has at his disposal.

>plus as I said before what other alien species could he be refering to that could erase all of existence besides Celestialsapiens because if there was another species he would have mentioned them along with Tokust'ars and Celestialsapiens

Thats pretty much Ever's point here. Servantis isn't speaking about any specific alien species when making that statement (which as I said, he was going more off of personal belief than absolute certainty). Servantis wasn't even aware of Alien X's existence when Ben recreated the universe. Literally the only thing connecting this statement to Alien X is because Servantis mentioned Celestialsapiens being a possible Alien Ben has. And thats the epitome of being circumstantial.

At best, you can argue that this is something Ben can do in general with the Omnitrix's power and not because of 1 specific alien species.
 
It's really not that hard to understand how Servantis is referring to Celestialsapiens if you just read the sentence, "With that weapon on his wrist he can turn into a Tokust'ar or pehaps even a Celestialsapien, this grimy child could one day just wish everything out of existence." He is clearly talking about if Ben ever gains the ability to turn into a Celestialsapien he could wipe everything out of existence and it is extremely illogical to assume that he is refering to some other alien species because if he was he would have said or perhaps even this alien instead of a Celestialsapien.
 
No he didn't. He said he can "perhaps become a celestialsapien". He's guessing. Servantis did not know of Alien X's existence in the Omnitrix or else he wouldnt guess Ben becoming one.

So that means it's a general statement about Celestialsapiens then and he said that Ben possibly has Celestialsapien DNA in the Omnitrix so he could possibly erase existence since all Celestialsapiens can.

No, it means that Alien Y gets the existence erasure and becomes scaled to nothing. This isn't arguing semantics. Your literally using guesswork that Servantis is referring to Celestialsapiens specifically all because of him thinking Ben could possibly become one. Thats major speculation.

Context is a thing, heck Servantis' entire schtick is with Alien X, EpicCookie's profile pic is literally Servantis' worst fear come true. Servantis later on in the episode mentions him sensing the recreation of the universe and calls Alien X an omnipotent monster. Him manipulating Kevin to stop Ben as Alien X is another example.
 
Honestly, I'm going to approach this from a different angle.

What other alien in the Omnitrix can wish away the entire universe?

Not destroy, not gradually obliterate, wish away? As in, poof and it's gone?

There really is no other alien besides a Celestialsapien that fulfills that criteria. Amid all the different species encountered throughout the series, none of them has ever been shown coming even close to that kind of power.

And even if the line might be seen as lacking somewhat in substance or certainty, there are other pieces of evidence to pointing at it very easily being the case.

When Ben recreated the entire universe after the detonation of the Anihilaarg, he did so from total nothingness. Afterwards, the Celestialsapiens that came to judge him were presumably going to bring it back to that due to him violating the Multiverse Preservation Act. As in, return all of it back to nothing.

As in, EE.
 
"With that weapon on his wrist he can turn into a Tokust'ar or pehaps even a Celestialsapien, this grimy child could one day just wish everything out of existence." Servantis was aware as he has part brainstorm Iq that's why in advance he thought best idea would be to form Rooters and stop him.
 
Crabwhale seems to make sense to me. Thank you for helping out.
 
>Servantis later on in the episode mentions him sensing the recreation of the universe and calls Alien X an omnipotent monster. Him manipulating Kevin to stop Ben as Alien X is another example.

This never happened actually. First off, after rewatching the episode myself, Servantis himself never even said he sensed Ben recreating the universe. Rook and Gwen assumed that he did.

(10:47) Ben: So, why didn't Servantis try again with the other rooters or a new Ben hit squad?

(10:52) Rook: The threat passed.

(10:54) Ben: Huh? Oh right -- when I stopped wearing the omnitrix.

(10:58) Rook: But Servantis would have heard recently about your re-creating the universe.

(11:02) Gwen: Or maybe he sensed it or measured it -- big brain and all --

Second, Servantis never even mentioned Alien X here. Kevin betrayed him, freed the Ben 10 Hit squad from their memories, and Servantis said Ben was an omnipotent monster. Which, im sure you know is very different from specifically pointing out Alien X as one. This falls in line with what Ever argued. Outside of mentioning Ben possibly turining to a Celestialsapien, Servantis doesn't even know about Alien X in the first place.

>So that means it's a general statement about Celestialsapiens then and he said that Ben possibly has Celestialsapien DNA in the Omnitrix so he could possibly erase existence since all Celestialsapiens can.

Servantis had 0 idea a Celestialsapien was even in the Omnitrix when making this statement. So how can he be talking about an alien he had 0 idea Ben can become when making said statement? I want you to answer me this before continuing please.

>What other alien in the Omnitrix can wish the entire universe? Not destroy, not gradually obliterate, wish away? As in, poof and it's gone? There really is no other alien besides a Celestialsapien that fulfills that criteria. Amid all the different species encountered throughout the series, none of them has ever been shown coming even close to that kind of power.

The thing here is thats from the perspective of AP. Not a hax ability. This statement from Servantis and melding of contexts together is the only thing that even gives Alien X existence erasure to begin with. Had he had something else to give existence erasure, i'd be more inclined to understand this argument. It doesn't matter if Alien X is the closest or the furthest thing from fitting this criteria without an explicit confirmation. We aren't this lenient with giving characters haxes, especially when the person who made this statement wasn't even aware of Alien X's existence.

Besides, you seem to have this idea that Alien X is the only alien Ben has that can even do anything universal in general. And thats wrong. Remember Feedback? He absorbed a Low 2-C big bang. Hell, Clockwork of all the aliens Ben has can even reverse time great enough to restore the Multiverse post-destruction. This idea that it has to be Ailen X is forcing context, especially when Servantis right before mentions Ben becoming a Tu'kostar.

>When Ben recreated the entire universe after the detonation of the Anihilaarg, he did so from total nothingness. Afterwards, the Celestialsapiens that came to judge him were presumably going to bring it back to that due to him violating the Multiverse Preservation Act. As in, return all of it back to nothing.

Literally none of this is existence erasure. Thats just Celestialsapiens destroying the very thing Ben didnt have authorization to create. And creating from total nothingness is just Creation. There isn't a single character on this site who has their EE because of this latter reasoning.

You also have yet to address the points I brought here myself that I didn't get from Ever's contribution. Servantis is basing this claim off of a being recreating the universe, a feat far beyond what Servantis can ever imagine. This seems more like a fodder observing a higher power and over hyping it. Which in fiction is extremely common. And the episode itself supports my point here.

After Kevin (who was pretending to help Servantis) captures Ben, the Ben 10 Hit squad was going to try destroying him and the Omnitrix in a non-baryonic disrupter chamber that destroys on a sub-quantum level. Servantis then walks up to Ben and says "Thank you for proving me right, young man. For a little while, it seemed that you weren't nearly the threat I had made you out to be."

Further suggesting Servantis was only hyping Ben up on his belief of him being a threat.
 
Once again Servantis wasn't what's so ever basing that claim off of Ben recreating the Universe that claim was 5 years before that even happend
 
Ben had never turned into a Celestialsapien when Servantis made that statement, that's why he wasnt certain whether he could turn into one or not, obviously. Servantis never implied he was unsure whether a Celestialsapien could erase everything or not, big difference. Also it doesnt matter what alien he refers to, because Alien X has been stated to be the most powerful alien in the Omnitrix, the most powerful alien in the universe, and having the greatest source of energy in the universe. Servantis wasnt even in the main universe when he made that statement, he was in the Null Void which has nothing to do with the main universe, destroying the main universe has 0 effect on the Null Void. Not to mention, Servantis made that statement several years before the universe was destroyed, the destruction of the unvierse has nothing to do with his statement. Servantis being fodder is completely irrelvant for his knowledge about power levels, Azmuth and Paradox are both fodder compared to Alien X yet are still very reliable characters when it comes to power levels in Ben 10.
 
>Alien X is the only alien that has been stated to have existance erasure aside from this episode, Kevin mentioned it that Alien X could erase them by blinking.


I know where your getting this from, and thats also not existence erasure. Thats just someone so overwhelmingly more powerful than fodders being powerful enough to destroy them instantly.
 
EpicCookie12342 said:
Once again Servantis wasn't what's so ever basing that claim off of Ben recreating the Universe that claim was 5 years before that even happend
Click to expand...
Your own thread begs to differ as you yourself mention this when you added the hax to their pages. If it didnt matter, why even point it out?
 
Ben wasnt using Alien X when he was captured, so that hardly proves Servantis was overhyping Ben. Alien X is the only alien that has been stated to have existance erasure aside from this episode, Kevin mentioned it that Alien X could erase them by blinking.
 
Again, your taking "erase" in that context too literally.

Kevin is literally a bug compared to what Alien X can dish out, any fodder comparing to someone of that level would get "erased" by mere comparison. But that doesn't literally mean it's existence erasure in the sense that its a hax ability.
 
>This never happened actually. First off, after rewatching the episode myself, Servantis himself never even said he sensed Ben recreating the universe. Rook and Gwen assumed that he did.

(10:47) Ben: So, why didn't Servantis try again with the other rooters or a new Ben hit squad?

(10:52) Rook: The threat passed.

(10:54) Ben: Huh? Oh right -- when I stopped wearing the omnitrix.

(10:58) Rook: But Servantis would have heard recently about your re-creating the universe.

(11:02) Gwen: Or maybe he sensed it or measured it -- big brain and all --

Second, Servantis never even mentioned Alien X here. Kevin betrayed him, freed the Ben 10 Hit squad from their memories, and Servantis said Ben was an omnipotent monster. Which, im sure you know is very different from specifically pointing out Alien X as one. This falls in line with what Ever argued. Outside of mentioning Ben possibly turining to a Celestialsapien, Servantis doesn't even know about Alien X in the first place.<

That is true but you keep mentioning him not knowing about Alien X \, doesn't matter if he knew about him or not, he was stating that if he had a Celestialsapien form he could wipe everything from existence.

>Servantis had 0 idea a Celestialsapien was even in the Omnitrix when making this statement. So how can he be talking about an alien he had 0 idea Ben can become when making said statement? I want you to answer me this before continuing please.<

He said he could one day wipe everything out of existence after saying he could possibly turn into a Celestialsapien

>The thing here is thats from the perspective of AP. Not a hax ability. This statement from Servantis and melding of contexts together is the only thing that even gives Alien X existence erasure to begin with. Had he had something else to give existence erasure, i'd be more inclined to understand this argument. It doesn't matter if Alien X is the closest or the furthest thing from fitting this criteria without an explicit confirmation. We aren't this lenient with giving characters haxes, especially when the person who made this statement wasn't even aware of Alien X's existence.

Besides, you seem to have this idea that Alien X is the only alien Ben has that can even do anything universal in general. And thats wrong. Remember Feedback? He absorbed a Low 2-C big bang. Hell, Clockwork of all the aliens Ben has can even reverse time great enough to restore the Multiverse post-destruction. This idea that it has to be Ailen X is forcing context, especially when Servantis right before mentions Ben becoming a Tu'kostar. <

He wasn't aware of Alien X existing but he was aware of Celestialsapiens existing which is why he made the statement as for the rest of what you said is irrelevent unless they could do something Multiversally

>Literally none of this is existence erasure. Thats just Celestialsapiens destroying the very thing Ben didnt have authorization to create. And creating from total nothingness is just Creation. There isn't a single character on this site who has their EE because of this latter reasoning.

You also have yet to address the points I brought here myself that I didn't get from Ever's contribution. Servantis is basing this claim off of a being recreating the universe, a feat far beyond what Servantis can ever imagine. This seems more like a fodder observing a higher power and over hyping it. Which in fiction is extremely common. And the episode itself supports my point here.

After Kevin (who was pretending to help Servantis) captures Ben, the Ben 10 Hit squad was going to try destroying him and the Omnitrix in a non-baryonic disrupter chamber that destroys on a sub-quantum level. Servantis then walks up to Ben and says "Thank you for proving me right, young man. For a little while, it seemed that you weren't nearly the threat I had made you out to be."

Further suggesting Servantis was only hyping Ben up on his belief of him being a threat.<

Like I said he wasn't basing anything off of Ben recreating the Universe since his statement litterally happened 5 years before that feat it really isn't that difficult to understand and Servantis said that because when Ben used Alien X he didn't really do anything destructive so he started to second guess himself
 
>Your own thread begs to differ as you yourself mention this when you added the hax to their pages. If it didnt matter, why even point it out?

Rewatch the episode, the flashback takes place before the universe was destroyed, you can easily tell that by the size of the plumber kids, Kevin and the others are clearly tiny compared to their present selves for christ sake. EpicCookie said in his thread that Servantis went after Ben after he recreated the universe, which was not during the flashback. During the flashback, Servantis had no way of knowing whether Ben had Alien X because he had never transformed into him, hence why he was unsure whether he had Alien X, he was not unsure whether Alien X could erase everything. Saying "perhaps Ben can transform into Alien X. Ben could erase us all" is in no way the same as saying "perhaps Alien X can erase everthing" that is massive leap in logic.
 
Kevin's statement on itself is not enough for EE, but if Alien X is accepted to have EE, then I think we can use Kevin's statement for further context on how it works.
 
@ Kukui

They're erasing the thing he brought back. As in, bringing back to the nothingness of the void it was after the Anihilaarg's detonation. I don't see how they could do that with anything other than existence erasure.

On your other points about Servantis, I'll concede, as I have no recollection of this.
 
@Crabwhale Servantis is the person behind: Kevin escaping the Null Void and befriending Ben, the Plumbers' helpers, Aggregor, manipulating Max into thinking Kevin's dad was his partner while he actually wasn't and Max didn't figure this out till that season of Omniverse, he probably manipulated Ragnarok as well. This dude basically left his mark all over Ben 10 without anyone noticing anything, if he is unreliable when it comes to Ben's power then who can we even trust?
 
Not to mention Servantis has the intelligence of a Cerebrocrustacean, which are aliens that has an IQ' of 10^30/ one nonillion as seen with Brainstorm, so he definitely has the intelligence to know the strength of capabilities of other aliens.
 
I agree with Crabwhale, and this discussion seems like a waste of time. We should preferably close it.
 
Now, now, let's not rush to any decisions, alright? Let's see what Kukui has to say about the new points we brought up. And preferably someone should get Liger as well.
 
Doorinmyhouse said:
Not to mention Servantis has the intelligence of a Cerebrocrustacean, which are aliens that has an IQ' of 10^30/ one nonillion as seen with Brainstorm, so he definitely has the intelligence to know the strength of capabilities of other aliens.
Click to expand...
While this does tell us that he can likely be trusted in his knowledge, the number itself is just nonsense.
 
@epiccookie exactly, the premise of the OP is completly flawed, ProfessorKukui presumes Servantis is wanking Alien X because he recreated the universe, however he makes that statement about him 5 years before Ben ever uses Alien X, as you can clearly tell from Kevins and the other plumber kids' size.

As well as the fact that it doesnt matter whether Servantis was refering to Alien X or not when he said that statement because Alien X is repeatedly stated to be the most powerful alien in Ben's omnitrix/ the universe, so even if Servantis was talking about some completely different Alien, it would still scale to Alien X regardless.
 
I have to unsubscribe from this thread due to time constraints. You can notify me later via my message wall if you need my help after you have reached a conclusion.
 
@Crabwhale Epiccookie already asked, I don't think Liger really cares about this kind of stuff for the 5th time in a row... but who knows?
 
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