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Abeloth and Luke upgrade
- Thread starter SunGodAttun
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@Everyone
This will all be more comprehensively covered in a new thread.
This will all be more comprehensively covered in a new thread.
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Can you post the quote for Anakin "channelling the entirety of the Force?" Because if that quote is what I think it is I believe you might be misinterpreting its' meaning.Matthew Schroeder said:
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Anakin Skywalker, Obi-Wan Kenobi and Ahsoka Tano investigated the kilometers-wide artifact, and were drawn into a paradise realm inhabited by unspeakably powerful Force-wielders. These god-like beings were locked in an eternal struggle for dominance, which made Mortis the fulcrum of the entire galaxy and the Force.
Databank: Mortis
^ The Ones transformed Mortis into the fulcrum for the entire Force
Obi-Wan: I don't understand. What is this place?
Qui-Gon: Unlike any other. A conduit through which the entire Force of the universe flows.
^ More confirmation. The entire Force of the universe flows through Mortis
https://youtu.be/groYO_51bwY?t=93
"Anakin: The planet is the Force, use it"
Anakin is amped by the entirety of the Force to overpower Son + Daughter, and they still endure his attacks. And even in this level, it is very likely that he was inferior to The Father.
Databank: Mortis
^ The Ones transformed Mortis into the fulcrum for the entire Force
Obi-Wan: I don't understand. What is this place?
Qui-Gon: Unlike any other. A conduit through which the entire Force of the universe flows.
^ More confirmation. The entire Force of the universe flows through Mortis
https://youtu.be/groYO_51bwY?t=93
"Anakin: The planet is the Force, use it"
Anakin is amped by the entirety of the Force to overpower Son + Daughter, and they still endure his attacks. And even in this level, it is very likely that he was inferior to The Father.
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"It's been confirmed on guidebooks that they are what cause the entirety of the Force of the universe to channel through Mortis"
I don't think channeling = AP. It also wasn't something integral to the Force itself, as their deaths only got rid of Mortis, not the Force itself.
"Daughter + Son took blows from Anakin channeling the entirety of the Force"
As in, literally all of the Force at once while they had none of it? I don't remember this, so it would help if you have the scene.
"it's been said that they could destroy the universe"
Like directly and at once? The closest I recall is the Father saying they could "tear the very fabric of our universe", which does not imply instant universal destruction. I'm also pretty sure we need more set timeframes for that, or the materium Emperor (40k one, not SW one) would be 3-A to Low 2-C.
I don't think channeling = AP. It also wasn't something integral to the Force itself, as their deaths only got rid of Mortis, not the Force itself.
"Daughter + Son took blows from Anakin channeling the entirety of the Force"
As in, literally all of the Force at once while they had none of it? I don't remember this, so it would help if you have the scene.
"it's been said that they could destroy the universe"
Like directly and at once? The closest I recall is the Father saying they could "tear the very fabric of our universe", which does not imply instant universal destruction. I'm also pretty sure we need more set timeframes for that, or the materium Emperor (40k one, not SW one) would be 3-A to Low 2-C.
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And I don't think 3-A Ones is in anyway farfetched. Abeloth is confirmed to be capable of Reality Warping the entire galaxy in any way she wants to effortlessly:
And the whole time, Abeloth would be feeding off the fear and anguish of the victims. She would grow into a being beyond mortal comprehension. With the dark side hers to command, she could literally reshape the galaxy in any manner she wished.
Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse
The Father defeated Abeloth when she was at the peak of her power.
And the whole time, Abeloth would be feeding off the fear and anguish of the victims. She would grow into a being beyond mortal comprehension. With the dark side hers to command, she could literally reshape the galaxy in any manner she wished.
Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse
The Father defeated Abeloth when she was at the peak of her power.
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That quote states that if Abeloth gained enough power, she would reshape the entire galaxy. That is 4-A to 3-C.
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Because she was depowered at the moment. And it says "she could literally reshape the galaxy in any manner she wished", which is 3-C, not 4-A.
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The Son and Daughter's fighting causing the place where they're fighting to become a focal point for the universe's Force energy to flow through is a pretty solid showing, but it's not really applicable to the energy they themselves are capable of summoning.Matthew Schroeder said:
You understand when a Force user is on a nexus of their Force alignment they are not being given access to literally a planet's worth of energy. Rather, they are amped to varying degrees based on how much that planet has been shifted in favor of one alignment or another. I don't see why we should assume Anakin then would be able to channel the Force in its entirety simply because the energy of the universe is flowing through Mortis.
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@Matt
Where does it say she was depowered? It said she would grow into said being, not that she would regain the form of said being. Is it in another part of the story?
No, that has always been treated as a 4-A to 3-C feat, unless the entire galaxy is shown warped at once. Stuff like the Chaos Gods' materium influence and Drawcia were viewed the exact same way.
Where does it say she was depowered? It said she would grow into said being, not that she would regain the form of said being. Is it in another part of the story?
No, that has always been treated as a 4-A to 3-C feat, unless the entire galaxy is shown warped at once. Stuff like the Chaos Gods' materium influence and Drawcia were viewed the exact same way.
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"That's a pretty solid showing, The Son and Daughter's fighting causing the place where they're fighting to become a focal point where the universe's Force energy flows through, but that's not really applicable to the energy they themselves are capable of summoning."
Sure it scales to them. If their very presence transforms the planet they are on into the fulcrum through which the entirety of the Force flows, it shows the kind of power they have. Pretty consistent with how they are embodiments of the Light and Dark side respectively, and with Father maintaining the Force's balance, and the death of any One affecting the entirety of the Force (as confirmed multiple times), the reason for the Force not going out of loop is because all 3 died. The Father knew that if only one of them died and the others remained alive, things would be bad, so it was preferable that all 3 died.
Sure it scales to them. If their very presence transforms the planet they are on into the fulcrum through which the entirety of the Force flows, it shows the kind of power they have. Pretty consistent with how they are embodiments of the Light and Dark side respectively, and with Father maintaining the Force's balance, and the death of any One affecting the entirety of the Force (as confirmed multiple times), the reason for the Force not going out of loop is because all 3 died. The Father knew that if only one of them died and the others remained alive, things would be bad, so it was preferable that all 3 died.
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@Azathoth
The fact that she was sealed for an untold millenia in a cluster of black hole after being defeated, and needed to absorb power throughout the story makes it clear she was weakened.
"unless the entire galaxy is shown warped at once"
Uh, that's what it says.
"she could literally reshape the galaxy in any manner she wished". She could warp the entire galaxy in any way she wanted
The fact that she was sealed for an untold millenia in a cluster of black hole after being defeated, and needed to absorb power throughout the story makes it clear she was weakened.
"unless the entire galaxy is shown warped at once"
Uh, that's what it says.
"she could literally reshape the galaxy in any manner she wished". She could warp the entire galaxy in any way she wanted
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@Matt
I know she was sealed, but are you sure that in context, it is merely referring to her returning to her power from before and not achieving new levels? The latter seems to be implied.
Regardless it is further support for 4-A.
I know she was sealed, but are you sure that in context, it is merely referring to her returning to her power from before and not achieving new levels? The latter seems to be implied.
Regardless it is further support for 4-A.
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Yes, but it is not said to be at once or instant. That is how we treat these when we have no timeframe.Matthew Schroeder said:
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Talked to Ever more and it does seem to be clear that she was depowered. The plot of the novel is characters wanting to avoid Abeloth from assimilating more power onto herself to not bring the end of the galaxy, whereas in the backstory The Father + Son + Daughter stepped in to stop her from doing just that, after she had reached her levels of power by drinking from the Font of Power and bathing in the Pool of Knowledge.
That's a clear distinction between being a Galactic threat and becoming a Galactic threat.
That's a clear distinction between being a Galactic threat and becoming a Galactic threat.
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@Matthew: There's also the fact that the Son can be killed via having his form pierced by stabilized plasma.
Though that could simply be that the Son involuntary lowered his Force defenses out of shock after the Father committed suicide as is indiciated by the text.
Though that could simply be that the Son involuntary lowered his Force defenses out of shock after the Father committed suicide as is indiciated by the text.
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The Dagger is literally stated to be the only thing that can kill The Ones, don't show a half-quote implying that it's a random energy dagger.
In a proactive measure, Luke dispatches a special team of Jedi—the Ten Knights—to seek out the monolith of Mortis, where they might find the Dagger of Mortis, a legendary object capable of slaying a Force-wielder from beyond the mortal realm.
The Essential Reader's Companion
In a proactive measure, Luke dispatches a special team of Jedi—the Ten Knights—to seek out the monolith of Mortis, where they might find the Dagger of Mortis, a legendary object capable of slaying a Force-wielder from beyond the mortal realm.
The Essential Reader's Companion
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Um. You should reread that quote. "Anakin use the distraction to slay Son with his lightsaber."Matthew Schroeder said:
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@Matt
No, he's right. That's how the scene goes. The Father kills himself with the Dagger, and because he's dead, the Son is no longer as powerful (Force being out of balance), and then Anakin murders him with his lightsaber.
No, he's right. That's how the scene goes. The Father kills himself with the Dagger, and because he's dead, the Son is no longer as powerful (Force being out of balance), and then Anakin murders him with his lightsaber.
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I would rather consider that to be PIS than anything else, akin to Zack Fair dying to bullets. They needed to kill The Ones one way or another in the story.
Even the very concept of a One having "Force defenses that require active thinking" makes no sense, as as stated multiple times in story and guidebooks, they are literally made of Force, so they wouldn't have to concentrate themselves to protect themselves..
Even the very concept of a One having "Force defenses that require active thinking" makes no sense, as as stated multiple times in story and guidebooks, they are literally made of Force, so they wouldn't have to concentrate themselves to protect themselves..
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I didn't mean to harsh anybody's mellow here. I'm actually a big Star Wars wanker myself. I just didn't think it was accurate to attribute the Ones being true representations of the Force... Or at least not possessing the capabilities of what you'd expect for a true representation of a universal energy source. *Shuffles off awckwardly*
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@Matt
They still very much have physical form, though. That much is clear. If the Dagger was really the only thing that could kill the Ones, Anakin probably would have just used that (it was right next to him) as opposed to impaling the Son with his lightsaber.
I don't think this implies the Ones always need active Force defenses, but instead that, as the Father says, they are weaker without each other.
They still very much have physical form, though. That much is clear. If the Dagger was really the only thing that could kill the Ones, Anakin probably would have just used that (it was right next to him) as opposed to impaling the Son with his lightsaber.
I don't think this implies the Ones always need active Force defenses, but instead that, as the Father says, they are weaker without each other.
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@Azathoth
They don't have a physical form. Did you miss the Father's dialogue?
"We can take many forms. The shapes we embody are merely a reflection of the life force around us..."
There are plenty of quotes in guidebooks and also Fate of the Jedi that confirm that as well.
And yes, the Ones are weaker without each other, and if one of them dies the whole force will go off-balance, which is why the Father decided that once his daughter died, he and his son had to die as well so the Force would return to balance.
@Syndiciate
They are literally stated over and over and over to be Embodiments of the Force. I think that has more weight than personal thought.
They don't have a physical form. Did you miss the Father's dialogue?
"We can take many forms. The shapes we embody are merely a reflection of the life force around us..."
There are plenty of quotes in guidebooks and also Fate of the Jedi that confirm that as well.
And yes, the Ones are weaker without each other, and if one of them dies the whole force will go off-balance, which is why the Father decided that once his daughter died, he and his son had to die as well so the Force would return to balance.
@Syndiciate
They are literally stated over and over and over to be Embodiments of the Force. I think that has more weight than personal thought.
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@Matt
No, they very clearly ca take physical form. They don't have to, since they can be whatever they want due to the Force, but that doesn't mean anything done to their form is superficial, especially when the balance is going out of whack, and we get statement that because part of the Son's power runs through the Father, his death weakened him, and let him die.
No, they very clearly ca take physical form. They don't have to, since they can be whatever they want due to the Force, but that doesn't mean anything done to their form is superficial, especially when the balance is going out of whack, and we get statement that because part of the Son's power runs through the Father, his death weakened him, and let him die.
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I'm not saying they're not. I'm just saying that they don't seem to possess the capabilities of a true representation of a universal energy source. I.E. They're not omniscent, they've never demonstrated a feat that puts them on a universal level, and when they're caught off guard they're able to be physically killed without the things they represent ( the varying aspects of the Force ) ceasing to exist. I.E. while they might be embodiements of the Force they aren't the Force itself. Or if they are, then the forms they took as the Ones, were limited.
That's all I meant. Again, I didn't mean to upset anybody.
That's all I meant. Again, I didn't mean to upset anybody.
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No, their "physical form" is actually made of Force as well, as the Father stated in the quote above quite clearly.
And also...
"Do you think the Ones are made of crude matter?" Thuruht replied. "The Ones are beings of the Force. The Ones take any form they desire."
Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse
And also...
"Do you think the Ones are made of crude matter?" Thuruht replied. "The Ones are beings of the Force. The Ones take any form they desire."
Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse
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"They're not omniscent ( even they're precognition is fallible )"
The Daughter is Nigh-Omniscient.
"they've never demonstrated a feat that puts them on a universal level"
They have thing that implies / suggest this level. Several.
"and when they're caught off guard they're able to be physically killed without the things they represent ( the varying aspects of the Force ) ceasing to exist"
Anakin killing Son is pure PIS. The second argument is akin to saying that Supernatural Death isn't Death, and it is stated that the death of The Daughter was unbalacing the entire of the Force, which is why all of them had to die to return to the Force.
The Daughter is Nigh-Omniscient.
"they've never demonstrated a feat that puts them on a universal level"
They have thing that implies / suggest this level. Several.
"and when they're caught off guard they're able to be physically killed without the things they represent ( the varying aspects of the Force ) ceasing to exist"
Anakin killing Son is pure PIS. The second argument is akin to saying that Supernatural Death isn't Death, and it is stated that the death of The Daughter was unbalacing the entire of the Force, which is why all of them had to die to return to the Force.
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And those forms they take can obviously be physically effected...Matthew Schroeder said:
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They are tangible if they want to, but they aren't physical in a way a body of flesh and bone is. They are living Force. Point being, the notion that they need to actively use Force to shield themselves is ludicrous because their bodies are made of Force.
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Not being made of normal matter =/= being totally non-physical. We see in the canon that they can take physical bodies. We see in the canon these bodies can be hurt and weaken. We see in canon that when weakened, sufficient harm to these bodies can kill them.Matthew Schroeder said:
Didn't we have a whole thing about guidebooks suggesting something different from what is shown?
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I don't think either of us is arguing for that.Matthew Schroeder said:
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Matthew Schroeder said:
Since we have brought up the point of using calculations for this verse, let's check these calculations to see if they are valid.
Spoiler
First let's check out the Ritual of Nathema calculation (The one that yielded in 5-A results).
This calculation was rejected on OBD on the basis that the subatomic annihilation only applied to living matter, as stated in the novel quote below.
- The Emperor had consumed everything. Life, sound, color, even the Force?nothing remained. This wasn?t about conquest or domination or destroying an enemy?all concepts Scourge embraced.
- There is no mention of water being subatomically annihilated stated anywhere in the above quote. To justify subatomic annihilation of a certain material, the verse in question must clearly state that said material in question was destroyed that way.
- Note that in the Calculations page that subatomic annihilation is only relevant for solid objects (rocks, buildings, and mountains), thus this is a second reason that subatomic annihilation would not apply in this scenario.
Why are we discussing Canon feats?
Second, let's check out this calc here
- Tri-fighters can travel up to a certain speed, but that is the absolute max speed that those fighters can travel at ("Tri-fighters can travel at speeds of up to 125 MGLT, so thatll be what Ill use to get the speed of one MGLT"). But then, how do you know that those Tri-Fighters were moving at their peak speed in that scene? Unless the novel directly tells us that those fighters were moving at top speed in that scene, you cannot assume that those fighters are moving at top speed.
- Unlike projectiles such as lasers and bullets, the speed of fighter jets can vary wildly depending on the scenario instead of being consistent throughout.
- Again, how do we know that those ships were moving at 0.5c (if that is the ship's top speed) in that scene? Unless the novel states that those ships were moving at half the speed of light in that scene, you cannot be certain that they are actually moving at that speed.
- Same with the reasoning in the above calc, the speed of fighter jets can vary wildly depending on the scenario (They can either slow down and move quickly depending on the situation).
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Here's how Plagueis describes it.
"The Force is found throughout the universe, not only in living things. Everything in existence that draws upon various aspects of the energy we call the Force may be classified into three categories. The aperio includes and unites all matter, giving it shape and cohesion. Aspects of the aperion include gravity and electromagnetism—though the term encompasses everything in both space and time. Many of the abilities understood as belonging to the Unifying Force are tied to the aperion. The anima gives life—but not thought—to animals, plants, and other living beings. Midi-chlorians are responsible for inducing and sustaining anima in almost all species. Many of the Living Force abilities are tied to the anima. The pneuma is the expression of conscious thought. Thinking, self-aware minds contribute to the collective pneuma, which is accessed by many naturally telepathic species, as well as by the various mind tricks of the Jedi and the Sith. These fundamental forces would exist even without midi-chlorians However, midi-chlorians are the beneficiaries of an unusually strong connection to all forms of physical and psychic energy. Because the midi-chlorians inhabit living cells, the host organism is able to draw upon this connection. Midi-chlorians are endosymbionts. They die when their host dies, and no host can live if completely purged of midi-chlorians. The visible biology of the cell and its midi-chlorians is a product of the invisible interactions of the aperion, anima, and pneuma.
So it is indeed possible to be "made up of the Force." But also have a form of physical matter as that would fall under the "aperion."
"The Force is found throughout the universe, not only in living things. Everything in existence that draws upon various aspects of the energy we call the Force may be classified into three categories. The aperio includes and unites all matter, giving it shape and cohesion. Aspects of the aperion include gravity and electromagnetism—though the term encompasses everything in both space and time. Many of the abilities understood as belonging to the Unifying Force are tied to the aperion. The anima gives life—but not thought—to animals, plants, and other living beings. Midi-chlorians are responsible for inducing and sustaining anima in almost all species. Many of the Living Force abilities are tied to the anima. The pneuma is the expression of conscious thought. Thinking, self-aware minds contribute to the collective pneuma, which is accessed by many naturally telepathic species, as well as by the various mind tricks of the Jedi and the Sith. These fundamental forces would exist even without midi-chlorians However, midi-chlorians are the beneficiaries of an unusually strong connection to all forms of physical and psychic energy. Because the midi-chlorians inhabit living cells, the host organism is able to draw upon this connection. Midi-chlorians are endosymbionts. They die when their host dies, and no host can live if completely purged of midi-chlorians. The visible biology of the cell and its midi-chlorians is a product of the invisible interactions of the aperion, anima, and pneuma.
So it is indeed possible to be "made up of the Force." But also have a form of physical matter as that would fall under the "aperion."
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Oh Lina, I hate to bother you but can you hop on the chat so I can click your name, go into our PM's and post that Starkiller thread here in revisions?
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@Syndicate: And how does the above quote prove that The Ones are Universe level exactly? There is nothing in the above quote that indicates this.
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I never claimed the One's were universal. In fact, I've been actively arguing against such a notion.Lina Shields said:
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Lina, if you don't know that the Force is Universal, then you literally don't know Star Wars basics.
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"The Emperor had consumed everything. Life, sound, color, even the Force?nothing remained."
Which confirms that he consumed everything. Basic reading comprehension. If it consumed everything, even the Force that binds everything in the
"There is no mention of water being subatomically annihilated stated anywhere in the above quote."
And it was later stated that Viviate sub-atomically destroyed the planet's matter. Apply basic reading comprehension again to know that he destroyed everything on a sub-atomic level. You came to this conclusion yourself, it's not hard.
"Note that in the Calculations page that subatomic annihilation is only relevant for solid objects (rocks, buildings, and mountains), thus this is a second reason that subatomic annihilation would not apply in this scenario."
You say this when you know that sub-atomically destroying water wields high results.
As for the novels, they state that they were moving at top / max speed. You can check the excerpts. And both calculations were approved on the OBD by ChaosTheory, no less, which I think should make you accept then since you're basically just re-estating his arguments in regards to the Viviate thing.
Which confirms that he consumed everything. Basic reading comprehension. If it consumed everything, even the Force that binds everything in the
"There is no mention of water being subatomically annihilated stated anywhere in the above quote."
And it was later stated that Viviate sub-atomically destroyed the planet's matter. Apply basic reading comprehension again to know that he destroyed everything on a sub-atomic level. You came to this conclusion yourself, it's not hard.
"Note that in the Calculations page that subatomic annihilation is only relevant for solid objects (rocks, buildings, and mountains), thus this is a second reason that subatomic annihilation would not apply in this scenario."
You say this when you know that sub-atomically destroying water wields high results.
As for the novels, they state that they were moving at top / max speed. You can check the excerpts. And both calculations were approved on the OBD by ChaosTheory, no less, which I think should make you accept then since you're basically just re-estating his arguments in regards to the Viviate thing.
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