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Abeloth and Luke upgrade
- Thread starter SunGodAttun
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... Alright... I'm convinced.
He went to work on 5! Jedi!
He went to work on 5! Jedi!
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Well, if the OBD has accepted the 4-A calculation, I suppose that it should be fine to apply.
I agree that Star Wars seems extremely inconsistent between the movies and books/comics in terms of power levels however.
I agree that Star Wars seems extremely inconsistent between the movies and books/comics in terms of power levels however.
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@Ant
I agree too. The movies are very low end while the Expanded Universe has pretty much all the feats.
I agree too. The movies are very low end while the Expanded Universe has pretty much all the feats.
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Well, the EU has numerous feats ranging from Town level to even Moon level, as well as the 5-A feat.
So it's not like it's an odditiy in the EU.
So it's not like it's an odditiy in the EU.
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Ever and I are working on a new thread to cover everything.
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Matthew Schroeder said:
- You still have not answered the points on why various Jedi Hunters were able to kill Jedi here are there, as well as Mandalore the Ultimate (a non-force user) beating Darth Malak in a straight up duel the first time. If Darth Malak's striking strength directly matched his AP with the Force, why would the above scenario ever happen?
- As for Luke Skywalker example, your/Prom's explanation does not hold because as I stated above, said durability w/the Force is maximized only when a Force User is completely focusing on maintaining that barrier. It's not something that is passively there when a Jedi is fighting a duel (as said Jedi needs to focus on that duel instead of actively maintaining said barrier).
- If you really wanted to prove that Luke's Striking Strength matches his AP, you need to find an excerpt from the Luke/Abeloth fight that Luke physically broke through Abeloth's barrier WHEN Abeloth was proactively maintaining said barrier only (and not doing other things like being in a middle of a duel with Luke).
- Because, like I said, Force amplified defense is something they need to consciously apply and something that doesn't appear to be constantly applied in battle. If you were talking, say, the striking power of a lightsaber/sword strike broke through one of those Force Barrier Bubbles? Then sure, they'd need that kind of physical strength to do so. I've never seen an example of that though.
Windu was either too drained to amplify himself to super human, or just flat out unconscious
The point I'm trying to make is this shit isn't passive as you might find it in other series. They need to actively focus on keeping these stats up for them to stick around. Have you guys even bothered to read this?
Anyways, the 4-A calculation is fine, and you can scale that to The Ones and those that scale.
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Well, then I don't have problem with Building Class for the Force users, but then the calc should be linked to Grievous profile and rescale the characters (From Large Building to Building Class)
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Anyways, I am concerned about the Large Planet level calculation that I did regarding Vitiate's feat.
I'll post the complete reasoning for why it was rejected, as quite a couple people here, as well as OBD rejected it due to the fact that the novel based on this stated that said feat subatomically destroyed only the living matter on that planet, and nothing else.
This would also mean that what happened to all the water on that planet remains unknown, although said water could be vaporized (or greater). However, unless said novel explicitly states that everything on the surface of the planet (including water) was subatomically destroyed, we cannot assume subatomic destruction for it.
I'll post the complete reasoning for why it was rejected, as quite a couple people here, as well as OBD rejected it due to the fact that the novel based on this stated that said feat subatomically destroyed only the living matter on that planet, and nothing else.
This would also mean that what happened to all the water on that planet remains unknown, although said water could be vaporized (or greater). However, unless said novel explicitly states that everything on the surface of the planet (including water) was subatomically destroyed, we cannot assume subatomic destruction for it.
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@Lina
Both Ever and I disagree with this reason, and I remember you saying you trust Ever's interpretation of the feat and sorta agree with him?
The context is that Viviate destroyed the entire planet's surface, later said to be on a subatomic level, leaving the planet as a gray husk. It makes sense to assume that he destroyed the oceans on such a level, as he did everything else. Also, "living matter", water is vital to life and water tends to start on water, and more species live on water than on land.
"As for Luke Skywalker example, your/Prom's explanation does not hold because as I stated above, said durability w/the Force is maximized only when a Force User is completely focusing on maintaining that barrier. It's not something that is passively there when a Jedi is fighting a duel (as said Jedi needs to focus on that duel instead of actively maintaining said barrier).
If you really wanted to prove that Luke's Striking Strength matches his AP, you need to find an excerpt from the Luke/Abeloth fight that Luke physically broke through Abeloth's barrier WHEN Abeloth was proactively maintaining said barrier only (and not doing other things like being in a middle of a duel with Luke)."
You keep saying this, but it's not true. How many times will I have to explain to you that Abeloth doesn't need to amplify her strength because she is made of Force? Do you not understand basic things about The Ones?
This notion that Jedi can't fight and shield themselves at once is arbitrary, and would make any Jedi vs Sith duel never happen, as either combatant could do a Force Push or whatnot while the other's durability is lowered, and take them down. Do you not see how absurd this notion is?
Both Ever and I disagree with this reason, and I remember you saying you trust Ever's interpretation of the feat and sorta agree with him?
The context is that Viviate destroyed the entire planet's surface, later said to be on a subatomic level, leaving the planet as a gray husk. It makes sense to assume that he destroyed the oceans on such a level, as he did everything else. Also, "living matter", water is vital to life and water tends to start on water, and more species live on water than on land.
"As for Luke Skywalker example, your/Prom's explanation does not hold because as I stated above, said durability w/the Force is maximized only when a Force User is completely focusing on maintaining that barrier. It's not something that is passively there when a Jedi is fighting a duel (as said Jedi needs to focus on that duel instead of actively maintaining said barrier).
If you really wanted to prove that Luke's Striking Strength matches his AP, you need to find an excerpt from the Luke/Abeloth fight that Luke physically broke through Abeloth's barrier WHEN Abeloth was proactively maintaining said barrier only (and not doing other things like being in a middle of a duel with Luke)."
You keep saying this, but it's not true. How many times will I have to explain to you that Abeloth doesn't need to amplify her strength because she is made of Force? Do you not understand basic things about The Ones?
This notion that Jedi can't fight and shield themselves at once is arbitrary, and would make any Jedi vs Sith duel never happen, as either combatant could do a Force Push or whatnot while the other's durability is lowered, and take them down. Do you not see how absurd this notion is?
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Also, now that I think about it, if they can amplify their striking power via Force, why they would "hold back" with Large Building strikes instead of just using their full power?
Also, Luke's 8-C rating comes from a striking feat, and his force scales from that, yet his stronger self are just sightly superior in strenght.
(@Matt one question, why Luke is 8-C instead of scaling from the High 8-C younglings?)
Also, Luke's 8-C rating comes from a striking feat, and his force scales from that, yet his stronger self are just sightly superior in strenght.
(@Matt one question, why Luke is 8-C instead of scaling from the High 8-C younglings?)
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@Aiden
Because the profiles are outdated.
Because the profiles are outdated.
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From what I've seen on the thread so far, many points seem to make sense, but all things considered I'm leaning more with Matthew and Everlasting on this one, especially regarding the use of the force in battles.
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His entire body sizzled into the joint-crushing grip of a Force lightning strike. The agony seemed to last forever. Luke could feel his own flesh charring beneath the palm pressed to his chest; he was paralyzed by the lightning, unable to fight free or attack with a head-butt, or even flick his lightsaber blade and finish Korelei. He simply hung paralyzed, one hand clutching her arm, the other pressing the hilt to her chest, wondering how long it would take her to die.
Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse
^ Luke Skywalker enduring Force Lightning from Abeloth without actively "Amplifying" his durability..
Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse
^ Luke Skywalker enduring Force Lightning from Abeloth without actively "Amplifying" his durability..
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You keep saying this, but it's not true. How many times will I have to explain to you that Abeloth doesn't need to amplify her strength because she is made of Force? Do you not understand basic things about The Ones?
And you still have not have shown me why Abeloth is the exception to this when all the other Force users need to use the Force a certain way in order to maximize its capability?
Please do expand about the Ones. Why are they the exception to this rule as force users when all the other Force users follow said rule? All the Force users in that verse are utilizing the same source of power (which comes directly from the Force), yes?
And you still have not have shown me why Abeloth is the exception to this when all the other Force users need to use the Force a certain way in order to maximize its capability?
Please do expand about the Ones. Why are they the exception to this rule as force users when all the other Force users follow said rule? All the Force users in that verse are utilizing the same source of power (which comes directly from the Force), yes?
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@Lina
... Because they are The Force rather than Force Users? I explained this many times above, did you forget?
... Because they are The Force rather than Force Users? I explained this many times above, did you forget?
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Well, they aren't truly "the Force." Moreso manifestations of the Force since they can be killed yet obviously the aspects of the Force they represent don't die with them.
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Also, Sadow was amped by the Sith meditation sphere, he didn't power its' function. The quotes for Jerec are likely hyperbole.
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@Syn
No, they are the Force manifest.
These three beings are incarnations of the Force itself. The Son represents the unfettered dark side, the Daughter is the pure light side, and the Father is the mediator between his two children, his strength keeping either one from overwhelming the other. Each can take any form they choose, and likely are not creatures of flesh and blood.
Source: Nexus of Power
The three all powerful beings of Mortis can assume strange shapes and exemplify the dark side, the light side, and the principle of balance.
Source: Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side: The Science of Creating Life
The personification of the dark side, the Son plots to kill the Father, and is held in check only by the Daughter and the Father's determination to preserve the Balance.
Source: The Ultimate Visual Guide: Updated and Expanded
The incarnation of the light side of the Force, the Daughter serves as a suppressor on the Son, thwarting his efforts to escape from Mortis and battling him for dominance.
Source: The Ultimate Visual Guide: Updated and Expanded
The Son was an embodiment of the dark side of the Force who dwelled on Mortis during the Clone Wars with his sister, the light-sider known as Daughter, and the powerful Force user known as Father, who tried to keep them in balance.
Databank: Son
No, they are the Force manifest.
These three beings are incarnations of the Force itself. The Son represents the unfettered dark side, the Daughter is the pure light side, and the Father is the mediator between his two children, his strength keeping either one from overwhelming the other. Each can take any form they choose, and likely are not creatures of flesh and blood.
Source: Nexus of Power
The three all powerful beings of Mortis can assume strange shapes and exemplify the dark side, the light side, and the principle of balance.
Source: Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side: The Science of Creating Life
The personification of the dark side, the Son plots to kill the Father, and is held in check only by the Daughter and the Father's determination to preserve the Balance.
Source: The Ultimate Visual Guide: Updated and Expanded
The incarnation of the light side of the Force, the Daughter serves as a suppressor on the Son, thwarting his efforts to escape from Mortis and battling him for dominance.
Source: The Ultimate Visual Guide: Updated and Expanded
The Son was an embodiment of the dark side of the Force who dwelled on Mortis during the Clone Wars with his sister, the light-sider known as Daughter, and the powerful Force user known as Father, who tried to keep them in balance.
Databank: Son
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I'm aware. I'm simply stating that their physical forms are not "the Force" or rather, are not truly representative of the Force as a universal energy source since they were overcome by Abeloth who definitely isn't universal.
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Abeloth is Universal, all of the Ones likely are, what are you talking about.
They are each the Embodiment of one aspect of the Entire Force. The Daughter is the Light Side, The Son is the Dark Side, The Father is Balance, and Abeloth is Chaos.
They are each the Embodiment of one aspect of the Entire Force. The Daughter is the Light Side, The Son is the Dark Side, The Father is Balance, and Abeloth is Chaos.
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The Son needed a ship to leave Mortis. They have limitations that you wouldn't really be expecting of a mainfestation of a universal energy source which is my point.Matthew Schroeder said:
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You do know that Mortis exists outside of the temporal universe and that The Father keeps them there, right?
And what limitations? They endured attacks from Anakin when he was channeling the fulcrum of the entire Force of the universe, and it is the presence of the Ones in Mortis that makes it the Nexus of the entire Force, and their deaths affected the entirety of The Force and caused it to fall out of balance.
And what limitations? They endured attacks from Anakin when he was channeling the fulcrum of the entire Force of the universe, and it is the presence of the Ones in Mortis that makes it the Nexus of the entire Force, and their deaths affected the entirety of The Force and caused it to fall out of balance.
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So... What tier is Luke at his best ? 3-A ?
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Matthew Schroeder said:
- The last time I checked, there is nothing stating that the entire universe would be completely be destroyed if Abeloth or any of the Ones are destroyed.
- Both the Son and the Daughter (as well as the Father committing suicide) died in the Legends continuity, but the universe in Star Wars still remained intact. If their presence was actually maintaining the Universe (which would be a justification for Universe level), their deaths would have collapsed the Universe entirely, as well the causing the Force itself to not exist altogether.
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Yeah.
Even 4-A is a given, since The Daughter + The Son created a cluster of black holes to seal Abeloth.
Even 4-A is a given, since The Daughter + The Son created a cluster of black holes to seal Abeloth.
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Yes, which is why I find it curious that the Son seemingly believes he can leave Mortis by using the ship Anakin, Obi Wan and Ahsoka came in on and why the Father recruits Obi Wan and Ahsoka's help to stop the Son and Anakin from leaving on said ship.Matthew Schroeder said:
The Force was already out of balance per quotes from Plagueis and Sithisis.
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The Ones don't have enough evidence to be 3-A, really. They are still the absolute best Force users in the verse (with Luke and Abeloth, who is technically the Mother, alongside them), but they are not literally the entire force. They have great sway over its balance, but the three of them dying did not get rid of the Force or something drastic like that, as they were representations of the Force's balance, not the Force itself literally made manifest.
That said, they are definitely 4-A, since they should doubtlessly be above the World Razer.
That said, they are definitely 4-A, since they should doubtlessly be above the World Razer.
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Agreed. ^
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@Azathoth
No, they actually do have plenty of evidence as 3-C and even 3-A.
No, they actually do have plenty of evidence as 3-C and even 3-A.
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I mean, granted, they're likely multi-galaxy level since they're infighting can tear apart the fabric of the universe.Cropfist said:
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@Matt
Such as? Because other than stuff like "tear the fabric of the universe", which does not imply 3-A, I don't recall any directly universal showings or statements.
Such as? Because other than stuff like "tear the fabric of the universe", which does not imply 3-A, I don't recall any directly universal showings or statements.
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It's been confirmed on guidebooks that they are what cause the entirety of the Force of the universe to channel through Mortis, Daughter + Son took blows from Anakin channeling the entirety of the Force, and it's been said that they could destroy the universe.
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