A very small animal man crt.

[Deagonx]

Can't show a single scan or proof.

Of course. My role here is not to provide an alternative to the theories you suggested, it is to hold your theories to a certain standard of evidence. What you're suggesting is that in the absence of a different explanation backed by specific evidence, your interpretation, no matter how shakey, should be accepted by default. This is, of course, ridiculous.

can't prove how creating a single 3-d universe affects the source

Nor do I need to. Animal Man is referring to the M-Field, not the Source as in the Jack Kirby character. Even if he was, however, there's no reason a 3-D universe couldn't affect the Source, if that's how the writer wanted to write it.

You kept saying Atagon isn't the one who would destroy creation then I shower you proof then you say it just a universe not creation.

1. I never said Antagon wasn't the one, I said you haven't sufficiently proven that he is the one.

2. I asked you to explain your evidence, and you did not.

3. Buddy himself said it was just a universe.

also tell me whendc has ever used creation to represent universe. When creation literally means the totality of DC multiverse.

This isn't really relevant. The fact is that the two are used in the same way in this story. Using creation for all of DC is pretty inconsistent.

 

[Westcoast5005]

Another small detail the red and the m-field extends to the world tree which literally holds creation.

 

[Deagonx]

And last time check we do this on majority not one person to decide.

Then you checked wrong. CRTs aren't decided by votes.

 

[Westcoast5005]

Then who decides this. Why should I accept your sub par attempts to debunked this. This should obviously be decided by votes.

 

[Deagonx]

Then who decides this

The site mods/admins.

Why should I accept your sub par attempts to debunked this.

You don't have to. My job is not to convince you, it's to convince the people who decide these things.

This should obviously be decided by votes.

Then every CRT would simply be a contest of who could drum up enough fan boys.

 

[Teezar]

The Lifeweb 'stretching to infinity' isn't evidence of infinite higher dimensions, as it's perfectly plausible for an structure that stretches to infinity to contain a finite amount of higher dimensions.

This......we definitely need ultima input here

 

[Antvasima]

No we do not. These are pretty basic standards that we have, and Deagonx has managed to evaluate this thread properly on his own.

 

[Teezar]

Actually, we do and I remember in a thread he was talking about something like that.

 

[Teezar]

The Lifeweb 'stretching to infinity' isn't evidence of infinite higher dimensions, as it's perfectly plausible for an structure that stretches to infinity to contain a finite amount of higher dimensions.

This could still grant teir 1 still.

 

[Antvasima]

Sure, how's this:

The possibility of upgrading Animal Man to Tier 1 has been discussed with regard to the description of the Lifeweb, scaling to Antagon (who may have pulled creation into the void), creating a universe, as well as a reference to Bohm's theory of implicate order. However, it has been rejected due to the lack of direct evidence for how that information would justify a Tier 1 rating.

---- and if you want me to be specific ----

The Lifeweb is both described as containing mirrors that reflect 'higher dimensions', and that it stretches to infinity, this has been theorized to indicate that there are an infinite amount of higher dimensions, but since neither the quality (what kind of dimension) nor quantity (how many dimensions) of those dimensions is expanded upon, it's unusable for a Tier 1 rating. The Lifeweb 'stretching to infinity' isn't evidence of infinite higher dimensions, as it's perfectly plausible for an structure that stretches to infinity to contain a finite amount of higher dimensions.

It is unclear how powerful Antagon is, due to vagueness in the illustrations and language used to describe him. For this reason, scaling is not viable. Further, the full scale of the 'creation' that Antagon would hypothetically be pulling into the void. Within the story it appears that the terms 'creation' and 'universe' are being used interchangeably, which further obfuscates the true scale of the feat.

Creating a universe is a powerful feat, but is nowhere near Tier 1 without additional evidence explaining what that universe entails, which is not provided in the story.

Bohm's theory might suggest an effectively infinite, but not truly infinite, amount of geospatial dimensions, however, to use this for a Tier 1 rating would require more evidence beyond two brief references in a single comic book, as it's vastly inconsistent with other descriptions of DC cosmology.

Thank you. That largely seems fine to me, but stretching to infinity can refer to just a High 3-A scale as well, and you should mention that we need considerably more specific in-story evidence than just a brief mention of Bohm, without further clarifications.

 

[Antvasima]

Actually, we do and I remember in a thread he was talking about something like that.

No. See the issues mentioned in my last post.

 

[Teezar]

A structure that contains higher dimensions(spatial or temporal) then stretches to infinity should be high-1B.

But would like to see ultima input.

 

[Antvasima]

No, nothing was stated about the number of higher dimensions themselves stretching to infinity as far as I am aware, just about that at the web stretches infinitely far along least one of said dimensions. That is all.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, was Morrison himself the author for these stories, or was it one of the writers following him?

 

[Deagonx]

This......we definitely need ultima input here

I mean, we could get input from Ultima, sure, but it wouldn't change the fact that what is stated doesn't indicate infinite higher dimensions. There's just no way to force that interpretation above others. Xearsay seems to be advocating for the idea that a construct which stretches to infinity that has mirrors reflecting higher dimensions must therefore have infinite higher dimensions. This is obviously erroneous, as those two pieces of information can exist without infinite higher dimensions.

A structure that contains higher dimensions(spatial or temporal) then stretches to infinity should be high-1B.

The problem is it's not clear what these higher dimensions are. The information provided is contradictory. Even the scan provided that refers to the "implicate" and "explicate" has Shamanistic cosmology which incorporates a higher dimension that is not spatial or temporal. It seems that the combination of the spiritual/mystical/magical aspects of DC with Bohm's theories as presented in Morrison's stories are using magical realms as higher dimensions, not geospatial dimensions. Which is more in keeping with traditional Platonism.

Thank you. That largely seems fine to me, but stretching to infinity can refer to just a High 3-A scale as well, and you should mention that we need considerably more specific in-story evidence than just a brief mention of Bohm, without further clarifications.

Okay, how's this:


The possibility of upgrading Animal Man to Tier 1 has been discussed with regard to the description of (1) the Lifeweb, (2) scaling to Antagon (who may have pulled creation into the void), (3) creating a universe, as well as (4) mention of Bohm's theory of implicate order. However, it has been rejected due to the lack of direct evidence for how that information would justify a Tier 1 rating, as explained below

(1) The Lifeweb is both described as containing mirrors that reflect 'higher dimensions', and that it stretches to infinity, this has been theorized to indicate that there are an infinite amount of higher dimensions, but since neither the quality (what kind of dimension) nor quantity (how many dimensions) of those dimensions is expanded upon, it's unusable for a Tier 1 rating. The Lifeweb 'stretching to infinity' can refer to just a High 3-A scale, and alone isn't evidence of infinite higher dimensions, as it's perfectly plausible for an structure that stretches to infinity to contain a finite amount of higher dimensions.

(2) It is unclear how powerful Antagon is, due to vagueness in the illustrations and language used to describe him. For this reason, scaling is not viable. Further, the full scale of the 'creation' that Antagon would hypothetically be pulling into the void. Within the story it appears that the terms 'creation' and 'universe' are being used interchangeably, which further obfuscates the true scale of the feat.

(3) Creating a universe is a powerful feat, but is nowhere near Tier 1 without additional evidence explaining what that universe entails, which is not provided in the story.

(4) Bohm's theory might suggest an effectively infinite, but not truly infinite, amount of geospatial dimensions, however, to use this for a Tier 1 rating would require considerably more specific in-story evidence applying it to DC, rather than just brief mention of Bohm in a single comic book, as it's vastly inconsistent with other descriptions of DC cosmology.

Also, was Morrison himself the author for these stories, or was it one of the writers following him?

We bounce around several authors in the different scans. The first set of scans about the void and Antagon are from around Animal Man #50 written by Steve Dillon and Tom Veitch, the scan of the narration mentioning "implicate and explicate" is Animal Man #87 by Jerry Prosser, the scans about the Red and. Doctor Varma and James theorizing about Buddy's experience are from around Animal Man #18-19 by Grant Morrison

 

[Antvasima]

The possibility of upgrading Animal Man to Tier 1 has been discussed with regard to the description of (1) the Lifeweb, (2) scaling to Antagon (who may have pulled creation into the void), (3) creating a universe, as well as (4) mention of Bohm's theory of implicate order. However, it has been rejected due to the lack of direct evidence for how that information would justify a Tier 1 rating, as explained below

(1) The Lifeweb is both described as containing mirrors that reflect 'higher dimensions', and that it stretches to infinity, this has been theorized to indicate that there are an infinite amount of higher dimensions, but since neither the quality (what kind of dimension) nor quantity (how many dimensions) of those dimensions is expanded upon, it's unusable for a Tier 1 rating. The Lifeweb 'stretching to infinity' can refer to just a High 3-A scale, and alone isn't evidence of infinite higher dimensions, as it's perfectly plausible for an structure that stretches to infinity to contain a finite amount of higher dimensions.

It is unclear how powerful Antagon is, due to vagueness in the illustrations and language used to describe him. For this reason, scaling is not viable. Further, the full scale of the 'creation' that Antagon would hypothetically be pulling into the void. Within the story it appears that the terms 'creation' and 'universe' are being used interchangeably, which further obfuscates the true scale of the feat.

Creating a universe is a powerful feat, but is nowhere near Tier 1 without additional evidence explaining what that universe entails, which is not provided in the story.

Bohm's theory might suggest an effectively infinite, but not truly infinite, amount of geospatial dimensions, however, to use this for a Tier 1 rating would require considerably more specific in-story evidence applying it to DC, rather than just brief mention of Bohm in a single comic book, as it's vastly inconsistent with other descriptions of DC cosmology.

Thank you. That seems fine to apply to me.

We bounce around several authors in the different scans. The first set of scans about the void and Antagon are from around Animal Man #50 written by Steve Dillon and Tom Veitch, the scan of the narration mentioning "implicate and explicate" is Animal Man #87 by Jerry Prosser, the scans about the Red and. Doctor Varma and James theorizing about Buddy's experience are from around Animal Man #18-19 by Grant Morrison

Okay, so are the others trying to use contradictory cosmology versions to create the illusion of higher tiers than is warranted for each of said writers on their own then? Only Morrison turned into a significant architect for the official DC cosmology as a whole as far as I am aware.

 

[Xearsay]

No, nothing was stated about the number of higher dimensions themselves stretching to infinity as far as I am aware, just about that at the web stretches infinitely far along least one of said dimensions. That is all.

it never saids “stretches infinitely far along at least one of said dimensions.”

The quotes are literally “…the web of life waiting, stretching to infinity catches me.”

“I see myself in mirrors reflecting higher dimensions.”

No where does it even mention or allude to what you just said

 

[Antvasima]

Again, something being infinitely wide does not remotely automatically translate into an infinite degree of infinities, and different DC Comics authors have different very contradictory standards. Unless this particular author clarified that higher dimensions are higher infinities, we likely cannot use it.

I am too busy and tired to continue arguing here. We should apply Deagonx's footnote and then close this thread.

 

[Xearsay]

Again, something being infinitely wide does not remotely automatically translate into an infinite degree of infinities, and different DC Comics authors have different very contradictory standards. Unless this particular author clarified that higher dimensions are higher infinities, we likely cannot use it.

I am too busy and tired to continue arguing here. We should apply Deagonx's footnote and then close this thread.

Accept the story directly tells us later on that there were an infinite number of larger worlds. Keep in mind these imaginal worlds were equated with higher dimensions.

 

[Deagonx]

The quotes are literally “…the web of life waiting, stretching to infinity catches me.”

“I see myself in mirrors reflecting higher dimensions.”

No where does it even mention or allude to what you just said

And neither of those quotes mention or allude to an infinite amount of dimensions.

Thank you. That seems fine to apply to me.

Okay, I've never applied an update before so I'm not sure how to go about that.

Okay, so are the others trying to use contradictory cosmology versions to create the illusion of higher tiers than is warranted for each of said writers on their own then? Only Morrison turned into a significant architect for the official DC cosmology as a whole as far as I am aware.

That kind of thing is unfortunately very common. WebCamParrot does it a lot and he has followers for some reason.

Accept the story directly tells us later on that there were an infinite number of larger worlds. Keep in mind these imaginal worlds were equated with higher dimensions.

The scan says "maybe" which leaves too much uncertainty. Likewise, if the realms are imaginal, then they cannot be higher geospatial dimensions, they would only be external higher realms, which even an infinite amount of which would not be 1-A.


Ant for reference this scan is from Animal Man #86 which was written by Jerry Prosser. It's not in the same storyline as the Lifeweb and it's not clear if that's whats being referred to.

 

[Xearsay]

The scan says "maybe" which leaves too much uncertainty. Likewise, if the realms are imaginal, then they cannot be higher geospatial dimensions, they would only be external higher realms, which even an infinite amount of which would not be 1-A.


Ant for reference this scan is from Animal Man #86 which was written by Jerry Prosser. It's not in the same storyline as the Lifeweb and it's not clear if that's whats being referred to.

The imaginal realms are equated with higher dimensions in the storyline.

Also it’s all a part of the same run of animal man. It’s just different writers collaborating on one big story. And as far as I’m concerned DC is still currently treated as composite so there’s nothing wrong with what I’m doing.

 

[Teezar]

I mean, we could get input from Ultima, sure, but it wouldn't change the fact that what is stated doesn't indicate infinite higher dimensions. There's just no way to force that interpretation above others.

Ultima knows about all things about dimensions so his input would be needed obviously especially anything from teir 2 upwards.

1A

High-1B actually.

The problem is it's not clear what these higher dimensions are. The information provided is contradictory. Even the scan provided that refers to the "implicate" and "explicate" has Shamanistic cosmology which incorporates a higher dimension that is not spatial or temporal.

This I don't know as I haven't read animal just following the scans but I can read the one about grant Morrison.

 

[Teezar]

The imaginal realms are equated with higher dimensions in the storyline.

Also it’s all a part of the same run of animal man. It’s just different writers collaborating on one big story. And as far as I’m concerned DC is still currently treated as composite so there’s nothing wrong with what I’m doing.

@deagif the story don't contradict one another I don't see any problem as dc isn't a 1 writer company but of many putting ideas and working together.

 

[Xearsay]

Also you seem to love bringing up webcamparrot. Everyone who watched your debate with him said you got debunked.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, I've never applied an update before so I'm not sure how to go about that.

Well, I could copy the text that you wrote to a footnote section in the Animal Man page and then close this thread if you wish.

Also, let's avoid any potentially controversial arguing about YouTubers with large followings. We mind our own business so they hopefully mind theirs.

 

[Westcoast5005]

Lol predictable.

 

[Deagonx]

The imaginal realms are equated with higher dimensions in the storyline.

These two can't be true at the same time. An imaginal realm cannot be a geospatial dimension, the two concepts are not compatible.

Ultima knows about all things about dimensions so his input would be needed obviously especially anything from teir 2 upwards.

We have the scans in front of us, there's no outside knowledge that another member can bring that would be relevant, unless he happens to have a relevant scan that no one else in the thread is aware of, which seems unlikely.

Everyone who watched your debate with him said you got debunked.

Lmao, and what is the point of this comment? Does hoping that WCP "debunked" me make you feel better about losing every debate you've had with me?

If you really want the story, after Death Metal came out, WCP got slapped around in a debate in the comments on his video by myself as well as other users. He gave up and ran away, accusing everyone of being alt-account trolls and demanded that anyone who wants to debate him do so exclusively on voice chat in his private discord server. Unsurprisingly, a discord full of people who are big enough WCP fans to listen to him debate in a voice chat is going to believe he won. Yet his argument boiled down to saying the following:

1) The Source is not a single being, but rather there's a bunch of Sources (lol)

2) When the cosmic raptor told Perpetua she will face "The Judgment of the Source" he wasn't talking about the Source passing Judgment, but rather Judgement against the Source. Why would Perpetua face a judgment made against another being? This theory, of course, was offered in support of his idea that the Judges of the Source are actually above the Source, not subordinate to it.

3) "The Source" in bold doesn't necessarily refer to "The Source" even if there are 4 other instances of the term being used all in exclusive reference to the Source. But sure, the 5th one is just an aberration.

In other words, the quality of his argument against me was roughly on par with the quality of the arguments he makes in his videos. Which is to say, terrible.

 

[Deagonx]

Well, I could copy the text that you wrote to a footnote section in the Animal Man page and then close this trhead if you wish.

That sounds good. If there was any further evidence it would've been provided by now, and it's been concluded that the current evidence isn't sufficient to make the conclusions being made in support of an upgrade.

 

[Teezar]

We have the scans in front of us, there's no outside knowledge that another member can bring that would be relevant, unless he happens to have a relevant scan that no one else in the thread is aware of, which seems unlikely.

It's basically the same thing everyone thought till you came so his input would be needed also.

 

[Antvasima]

Lol predictable.

Stop trolling.

 

[Antvasima]

That sounds good. If there was any further evidence it would've been provided by now, and it's been concluded that the current evidence isn't sufficient to make the conclusions being made in support of an upgrade.

Okay. I will close this thread and apply the text note then. Feel free to send me a message if you want to make modifications to it later.