A very small animal man crt.

[Westcoast5005]

In your scan, he gives various interpretations of the same concept, one of which is Bohm's theory. This does not necessarily mean that Bohm's theory is canon to DC (nor necessarily David Peat's interpretation of Bohm, which is what you quoted), it only tells us that the character is aware of the theory, as well as many others (such as Dreamtime from the Aboriginals, Nagual from the Yaqui Indians, and he was about to expand on another similar concept from the Hopi).

Likewise, that being the case still would not provide a means to connect the two statements about the Lifeweb in the manner you are suggesting.


How so?

Do you have evidence that universe means all of creation here?

The scan does not state this, unless there is a second scan that says "antithesis" which I overlooked.

You can do something to facilitate an event without actually being capable of performing the event yourself.

It states they went to place before existence

Yes they are evidence it's talking about creation. First of all it states without them the works of creation will cease, the m field the source will be no more. How is creating only an universe gonna save the works of creation? It also interchange the world creation and universe multiple times.

Atangon is the ieffable antithesis the monarda of denial to all that exist and existence.

Prove he can't do the feat himself what other statement proves cause this is just your own head canon. it simple if Atagon wins creation would be sucked into a void. Its clearly talking about Atangon doing the feat.

 

[Deagonx]

It states they went to place before existence

Yes. What are you stating this in response to?

First of all it states without them the works of creation will cease, the m field the source will be no more. How is creating only an universe gonna save the works of creation?

I'm not sure, but that is clearly what happens. He says that they need to create a universe, not the universe, and in the final scan it says it's just a world, one of thousands which does not indicate that the universe they made was the only one in existence. It also says the enemy who mocks this creation which demonstrates that "creation" is not being used to refer to the totality of existence, just a single universe

Atangon is the ieffable antithesis the monarda of denial to all that exist and existence.

"To all that exist and existence" is not added after those titles. After "Monad of Denial" there is a period. Full stop.

Prove he can't do the feat himself

That's not my responsibility as I am not the one making the claim. I've merely pointed out that you haven't provided adequate proof of your interpretation.

Its clearly talking about Atangon doing the feat.

Again, your sense of what is "clear" or "obvious" is not an argument nor is it evidence.

 

[Westcoast5005]

Yes. What are you stating this in response to?


I'm not sure, but that is clearly what happens. He says that they need to create a universe, not the universe, and in the final scan it says it's just a world, one of thousands which does not indicate that the universe they made was the only one in existence. It also says the enemy who mocks this creation which demonstrates that "creation" is not being used to refer to the totality of existence, just a single universe


"To all that exist and existence" is not added after those titles. After "Monad of Denial" there is a period. Full stop.


That's not my responsibility as I am not the one making the claim. I've merely pointed out that you haven't provided adequate proof of your interpretation.


Again, your sense of what is "clear" or "obvious" is not an argument nor is it evidence.

A universe there means creation. Because it states if they don't do something the work of creation will cease and specified the source. How would recreating only a universe save the source you have not answered this question.

Its your responsibility because you are making the claim that he doesn't have the power to do so with no evidence. You are saying something else will happen to suck creation into void not Atagon with no evidence.

 

[Deagonx]

How would recreating only a universe save the source you have not answered this question.

I did answer this question, I said that I don't know. Are you able respond to the points that came afterwards? I'll repeat them. First, the fact that I don't know how that works does not mean the theory you provided is true or valid. Second, I provided clear instances in which the specificity of the terms used indicated that neither "universe" nor "creation" in the comic book are being used to refer to all of existence.

Its your responsibility because you are making the claim that he doesn't have the power to do so with no evidence

No, I'm not. I am pointing out that your claim, that Antagon is capable of pulling creation into the void, is not backed by evidence. There is the possibility that Antagon is capable of that, certainly, but you have not proven it to a standard of evidence acceptable for a CRT.

You are saying something else will happen to suck creation into void not Atagon with no evidence.

No, I'm not. I am saying that the way the statement is phrased does not necessitate that Antagon is personally pulling creation into the void of his own power rather than through some other means. We only know one thing, that according to the character, if Antagon wins, creation will be pulled into the void. These conditions can co-exist in a reality where Antagon doesn't have the power level you're suggesting, which means there is not enough evidence.

Proof means information which cannot co-exist with any other interpretation other than the fact that the character has a certain level of power.

 

[Westcoast5005]

I will respond in the next 4 hours.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Deagonx has made his points more than sufficiently well to end this discussion.

Would you be willing to write some debunks for extreme Animal Man tiering as a footnote in his profile page, so we do not have to repeat this discussion again?

 

[Westcoast5005]

I think that Deagonx has made his points more than sufficiently well to end this discussion.

Would you be willing to write some debunks for extreme Animal Man tiering as a footnote in his profile page, so we do not have to repeat this discussion again?

I have counters to his point and additional feats so could you wait.

 

[Deagonx]

Would you be willing to write some debunks for extreme Animal Man tiering as a footnote in his profile page, so we do not have to repeat this discussion again?

Sure, I will write it up. Can you link me a page with a similarly intended footnote so that I have an idea of how to structure it?

 

[Xearsay]

This does not necessarily mean that Bohm's theory is canon to DC (nor necessarily David Peat's interpretation of Bohm, which is what you quoted), it only tells us that the character is aware of the theory, as well as many others (such as Dreamtime from the Aboriginals, Nagual from the Yaqui Indians, and he was about to expand on another similar concept from the Hopi).

Likewise, that being the case still would not provide a means to connect the two statements about the Lifeweb in the manner you are suggesting.

You seemed to have missed the part where James stated in the scan, “When you talked about heaven, I think you really meant the implicate.” Implying that Buddy’s out of body experience earlier where he was in the Red and saw a higher world, was the implicate. The storyline would also later refer to reality as the explicate unfolding from the implicate.

I’m confused. Why would I not be allowed to draw a conclusion from the two statements?

 

[Antvasima]

Sure, I will write it up. Can you link me a page with a similarly intended footnote so that I have an idea of how to structure it?

I don't remember so well, but it usually goes something like: "Don't try to upgrade character X to this tier, because of the following reasons..."

 

[Deagonx]

“When you talked about heaven, I think you really meant the implicate.” Implying that Buddy’s out of body experience earlier where he was in the Red and saw a higher world, was the implicate.

Yes, that is what James thinks, in a vague poorly expanded upon sense, about Buddy's experience and him talking about Heaven. The fact that James says this does not necessarily mean DC is based on that theory, only that the character James engaged with what Buddy said in terms of that theory, as well as several others.

The storyline would also later refer to reality as the explicate unfolding from the implicate.

The storyline as in the narration? Or a character?

I’m confused. Why would I not be allowed to draw a conclusion from the two statements?

You're allowed to draw any conclusion you like, I'm simply pointing out that the involvement of Bohm's theory does not change the fact that those two unconnected statements cannot be combined to justify infinite dimensionality without any other evidence. Seeing mirrors that reflect higher dimensions, and the lifeweb "stretching to infinity" simply refer to different things and there's nothing connecting them in the story.

I wouldn't even necessarily say that using those two concepts for infinite dimensionality is relevant to 1-A. As far as I know, the quality of these dimensions hasn't been expanded upon aside from "higher" which isn't always 1-A even if there are an infinite amount of them.

I don't remember so well, but it usually goes something like: "Don't try to upgrade character X to this tier, because of the following reasons..."

Gotcha, I'll work on it

 

[Antvasima]

I have counters to his point and additional feats so could you wait.

I suppose that the two of you can discuss a little bit more, but I am growing tired of this back and forth. It does not seem to lead anywhere.

 

[Antvasima]

Gotcha, I'll work on it

Thank you. I appreciate it.

 

[Xearsay]

Yes, that is what James thinks, in a vague poorly expanded upon sense, about Buddy's experience and him talking about Heaven. The fact that James says this does not necessarily mean DC is based on that theory, only that the character James engaged with what Buddy said in terms of that theory, as well as several others.

I’m not saying DC has strictly based their cosmology on Bohms theory. I’m merely saying the Red has in comic evidence of being associated with Bohm theory. Meaning we conclude that it should function similarly to how David Bohm’s implicate order does.

The storyline as in the narration? Or a character?

The narration.

You're allowed to draw any conclusion you like, I'm simply pointing out that the involvement of Bohm's theory does not change the fact that those two unconnected statements cannot be combined to justify infinite dimensionality without any other evidence. Seeing mirrors that reflect higher dimensions, and the lifeweb "stretching to infinity" simply refer to different things and there's nothing connecting them in the story.

Except both pieces of evidence in the end can be described as giving us information about the Red. And if we’re trying to understand or scale the red, all information described about it becomes relevant information. So seeing the lifeweb reflect higher dimensions while also stretching to infinity can be concluded to imply infinite dimensionality.

I wouldn't even necessarily say that using those two concepts for infinite dimensionality is relevant to 1-A. As far as I know, the quality of these dimensions hasn't been expanded upon aside from "higher" which isn't always 1-A even if there are an infinite amount of them.

Morrison has expanded upon higher dimensional perspectives in later stories. I also don’t think infinite higher dimensions is 1A. It’s high 1-B.

 

[Deagonx]

I’m merely saying the Red has in comic evidence of being associated with Bohm theory.

The evidence isn't very strong or conclusive.

Meaning we conclude that it should function similarly to how David Bohm’s implicate order does.

There is not sufficient evidence to support that.

Except both pieces of evidence in the end can be described as giving us information about the Red. And if we’re trying to understand or scale the red, all information described about it becomes relevant information.

That doesn't mean you combine two different statements into a different statement entirely. Reflecting higher dimensions and stretching onto infinity can both be true without infinite dimensionality being true.

Morrison has expanded upon higher dimensional perspectives in later stories.

That's not really relevant unless there is some reason in particular to equate what is being discussed here about the red with those stories, outside of having Morrison as the author.

 

[Xearsay]

The evidence isn't very strong or conclusive.

There is not sufficient evidence to support that.

Unless there is some contradiction about whether Bohm theory is actually being used or not, it is conclusive. You’re just being in denial.

That doesn't mean you combine two different statements into a different statement entirely. Reflecting higher dimensions and stretching onto infinity can both be true without infinite dimensionality being true.

I’m not combining two statements into one statement. I’m taking into account two descriptions about the Red to draw a new conclusion. This is basic inferencing.

That's not really relevant unless there is some reason in particular to equate what is being discussed here about the red with those stories, outside of having Morrison as the author.

It is relevant because both stories are speaking on higher dimensions. So if I’m trying to draw a conclusion about higher dimensions in DC, stories speaking on higher dimensions will become relevant.

 

[Deagonx]

Unless there is some contradiction about whether Bohm theory is actually being used or not, it is conclusive. You’re just being in denial.

The mere reference of a theory is not sufficient evidence that it applies to the canon in any meaningful way, a contradiction is not required, you just haven't shown well enough that it's being used. The only information we have is that James knows of Bohm's theories and relates what Buddy is saying to them. If you aren't able to provide more evidence, then all you have is a theory based on one character statement from an individual who doesn't have

I’m not combining two statements into one statement. I’m taking into account two descriptions about the Red to draw a new conclusion. This is basic inferencing.

You have not provided evidence to support this inference. We have two unrelated characteristics. The existence of mirrors that reflect higher realities, and the fact that it stretches onto infinity. Those two things don't necessarily mean infinite dimensionality, so your inference is just assumptions.

It is relevant because both stories are speaking on higher dimensions. So if I’m trying to draw a conclusion about higher dimensions in DC, stories speaking on higher dimensions will become relevant.

Higher dimensions can refer to many things, and different parts of DC interact with the various forms of higher dimensions in different ways, so you would need to demonstrate that both stories are referring to the same type of higher dimension, and that the information provided is relevant to the Red.

 

[Westcoast5005]

I did answer this question, I said that I don't know. Are you able respond to the points that came afterwards? I'll repeat them. First, the fact that I don't know how that works does not mean the theory you provided is true or valid. Second, I provided clear instances in which the specificity of the terms used indicated that neither "universe" nor "creation" in the comic book are being used to refer to all of existence.


No, I'm not. I am pointing out that your claim, that Antagon is capable of pulling creation into the void, is not backed by evidence. There is the possibility that Antagon is capable of that, certainly, but you have not proven it to a standard of evidence acceptable for a CRT.


No, I'm not. I am saying that the way the statement is phrased does not necessitate that Antagon is personally pulling creation into the void of his own power rather than through some other means. We only know one thing, that according to the character, if Antagon wins, creation will be pulled into the void. These conditions can co-exist in a reality where Antagon doesn't have the power level you're suggesting, which means there is not enough evidence.

Proof means information which cannot co-exist with any other interpretation other than the fact that the character has a certain level of power.

If you don't why do you have an opinion on it you're just in denial for no basis.
And yes it makes my conclusion valid because you can't debunk reasoning. Unless you can debunk the stuff about the source and the works of creation my conclusion is very much valid.

Like I said you are just denial. It literally states if Atagon wins creation would be pulled Creation into the void what other conclusions can be made than Atagon himself pulling into the void. You need to have proof that something or someone would pull creation into void and you keep saying you don't know. Then why do you have an opinion on something you don't know. All your answers and reasoning are based on assumption.

Also you keep on saying it could be this other scenario with no proof.

 

[Xearsay]

The mere reference of a theory is not sufficient evidence that it applies to the canon in any meaningful way, a contradiction is not required, you just haven't shown well enough that it's being used. The only information we have is that James knows of Bohm's theories and relates what Buddy is saying to them. If you aren't able to provide more evidence, then all you have is a theory based on one character statement from an individual who doesn't have

James didn’t just merely reference Bohm theory. He went over how the implicate reality(an idea within Bohm theory) is similar to the higher world Buddy saw while he was in the Red. Claiming he only “references” Bohm theory is a blatant misrepresentation of what James said.

You have not provided evidence to support this inference. We have two unrelated characteristics. The existence of mirrors that reflect higher realities, and the fact that it stretches onto infinity. Those two things don't necessarily mean infinite dimensionality, so your inference is just assumptions.

Yes I have. My evidence is literally the two scans about the lifeweb that Westcoast posted. Also yes the descriptions are related as they’re both talking about the Red. And yes it does mean infinite dimensionality as the lifeweb which is reflecting higher dimensions to Buddy is also stretching to infinity. When we take into account both details we can conclude the lifeweb stretches into infinite dimensionality.

Higher dimensions can refer to many things, and different parts of DC interact with the various forms of higher dimensions in different ways, so you would need to demonstrate that both stories are referring to the same type of higher dimension, and that the information provided is relevant to the Red.

What do you mean by different parts of DC interact with various forms of higher dimensions in different ways? “Higher dimensions” are taken on this wiki as referring to dimensions superior to 3 spatial dimensions.

 

[Deagonx]

James didn’t just merely reference Bohm theory. He went over how the implicate reality(an idea within Bohm theory) is similar to the higher world Buddy saw while he was in the Red. Claiming he only “references” Bohm theory is a blatant misrepresentation of what James said.

That is literally what a reference is.

Definition of REFER

to think of, regard, or classify within a general category or group; to explain in terms of a general cause; to allot to a particular place, stage, or period… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

: to direct attention usually by clear and specific mention
'no one referred to yesterday's quarrel'

My evidence is literally the two scans about the lifeweb that Westcoast posted.

The fact that the lifeweb stretches onto infinity, and has mirrors that reflect higher dimensions, does not necessarily indicate that there are an infinite number of dimensions. Both statements would still be true if there were a finite number of higher dimensions which were infinite in size rather than quantity.

Without any evidence to distinguish which of those two (or other) options it is, it's an unproven theory.

What do you mean by different parts of DC interact with various forms of higher dimensions in different ways?

Higher dimension can refer to a wide array of things, and one explanation for higher dimensions does not mean every reference to higher dimension encompasses the same concepts. What Rama Kushna is referring to when she says "higher dimensions" isn't necessarily the same as the higher dimensions mentioned in reference to the Lifeweb. The term dimension, as well as the term higher, is too vague to definitively equate the term by default across different storylines.

“Higher dimensions” are taken on this wiki as referring to dimensions superior to 3 spatial dimensions.

Yes, that type of higher dimension is relevant to 1-A scaling. That does not mean that every time the phrase "higher dimension" is used that it is automatically interpreted as such, just that exclusively that form of higher dimension is relevant to Tier 1 CRTs.

 

[Deagonx]

If you don't why do you have an opinion on it you're just in denial for no basis.

I'm not denying anything, I am stating the fact that you haven't proven your theory. A specific interpretation of a comic book scan isn't considered valid "by default" if no one offers a specific alternative. There needs to be enough proof, that's it.

And yes it makes my conclusion valid because you can't debunk reasoning. Unless you can debunk the stuff about the source and the works of creation my conclusion is very much valid.

I did indeed debunk what you said about creation. You have yet to acknowledge it.

It literally states if Atagon wins creation would be pulled Creation into the void what other conclusions can be made than Atagon himself pulling into the void.

Another conclusion that could be made is that the end result of Antagon's victory is the pulling of creation into the void by way of chain reaction. You could say regarding The Dark Knight movie that "if Joker wins, a hospital will be demolished." That doesn't mean Joker personally is responsible for demolishing the hospital. He used a bomb.

You need to have proof that something or someone would pull creation into void and you keep saying you don't know.

No, I don't. You need to have proof it's Antagon. It isn't Antagon by default simply because an alternative hasn't been offered. The evidence doesn't actually say Antagon can do that or does that.

Also you keep on saying it could be this other scenario with no proof.

I don't need proof. The simple fact that the other scenario can coexist with the statements involved means that your scenario is not yet proven.

 

[Westcoast5005]

I'm not denying anything, I am stating the fact that you haven't proven your theory. A specific interpretation of a comic book scan isn't considered valid "by default" if no one offers a specific alternative. There needs to be enough proof, that's it.


I did indeed debunk what you said about creation. You have yet to acknowledge it.


Another conclusion that could be made is that the end result of Antagon's victory is the pulling of creation into the void by way of chain reaction. You could say regarding The Dark Knight movie that "if Joker wins, a hospital will be demolished." That doesn't mean Joker personally is responsible for demolishing the hospital. He used a bomb.


No, I don't. You need to have proof it's Antagon. It isn't Antagon by default simply because an alternative hasn't been offered. The evidence doesn't actually say Antagon can do that or does that.


I don't need proof. The simple fact that the other scenario can coexist with the statements involved means that your scenario is not yet proven.

I have proven my theory you just remain in denial you haven't shown an alternative to why he affected the source and other works of creation you just say there can be an alternative

In the joker movie the bomb is literally stated I don't see the correlation between this two scenario. In joker an evidence was shown but you haven't shown another evidence you're just denying just because you don't want the rating the burden of proof is on you. Also what chain reaction will happen if atangon beats animal man explain how Atagon beating animal man will cause a chain reaction that just pure head canon simple logic would be if Atagon wins against animal man he destroy creation which he was doing thats literally the reason they had to recreate creation simple.

 

[Westcoast5005]

Ok now what you gonna say about this Atagon literally sucks creation into the void as said before lol

 

[Xearsay]

That is literally what a reference is.

Definition of REFER

to think of, regard, or classify within a general category or group; to explain in terms of a general cause; to allot to a particular place, stage, or period… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

: to direct attention usually by clear and specific mention
'no one referred to yesterday's quarrel'

Ok. I’m not denying that he referenced Bohm theory. I’m saying that he did more than just reference it.

The fact that the lifeweb stretches onto infinity, and has mirrors that reflect higher dimensions, does not necessarily indicate that there are an infinite number of dimensions. Both statements would still be true if there were a finite number of higher dimensions which were infinite in size rather than quantity.

Except it blatantly states the lifeweb stretches to infinity so there’s no need to do any assumption making. Knowing that the lifeweb which reflects higher dimensions stretches all the way to infinity, we can conclude that there is infinite dimensionality.

Higher dimension can refer to a wide array of things, and one explanation for higher dimensions does not mean every reference to higher dimension encompasses the same concepts. What Rama Kushna is referring to when she says "higher dimensions" isn't necessarily the same as the higher dimensions mentioned in reference to the Lifeweb. The term dimension, as well as the term higher, is too vague to definitively equate the term by default across different storylines.

I get what you’re saying and I partially agree. However, The innumerable dimensions mentioned by Rama Kushna weren’t even specified as “higher dimensions” in the comics. Also during the same storyline the third kingdom which encompasses the imaginable worlds/higher dimensions were said to transcend the second kingdom which is essentially three dimensional spacetime,

Yes, that type of higher dimension is relevant to 1-A scaling. That does not mean that every time the phrase "higher dimension" is used that it is automatically interpreted as such, just that exclusively that form of higher dimension is relevant to Tier 1 CRTs.

Read what I said above.

 

[Deagonx]

I have proven my theory you just remain in denial you haven't shown an alternative to why he affected the source and other works of creation you just say there can be an alternative

This is becoming tiresome, repetitive, and childish. You have failed to provide proper evidence for your claims, and you have not engaged with the reasoning as to why your claims do not make sense, such as the way that the words universe and creation are utilized in the story.

I have explained, ad nauseum, that I do not need to provide an alternative explanation in order for yours to be unproven. This is a simple fact, not a matter of debate. Your constant demands for me to give you an explanation or prove an alternative are empty and pointless and serve no further purpose.

Ok now what you gonna say about this Atagon literally sucks creation into the void as said before lol

What part of that scan indicates to you that he is pulling creation into a void?

Ok. I’m not denying that he referenced Bohm theory. I’m saying that he did more than just reference it.

Your entire explanation for what he did falls under what a reference is.

Except it blatantly states the lifeweb stretches to infinity so there’s no need to do any assumption making. Not the size of each dimension. Knowing that the lifeweb which reflects higher dimensions stretches all the way to infinity, allows us to conclude infinite dimensionality.

You have not provided any explanation for why the phrase "stretches to infinity" refers to the amount of dimensions rather than the size. Both are reasonable interpretations of those two scans, if you don't have any evidence to distinguish one possibility from the others, it remains an unproven theory.

However, The innumerable dimensions mentioned by Rama Kushna weren’t even specified as “higher dimensions” in the comics.

It was merely an example. The simple fact is that the phrase higher dimensions cannot be boiled down to once concept. To equate different instances of the phrase requires context and a basis for connecting them.

Also during the same storyline the third kingdom which encompasses the imaginable worlds/higher dimensions were said to transcend the second kingdom which is essentially three dimensional spacetime,

If you feel that it has relevance to the discussion feel free to provide the scans and I will assess them and respond.

 

[Westcoast5005]

Ok. I’m not denying that he referenced Bohm theory. I’m saying that he did more than just reference it.


Except it blatantly states the lifeweb stretches to infinity so there’s no need to do any assumption making. Not the size of each dimension. Knowing that the lifeweb which reflects higher dimensions stretches all the way to infinity, allows us to conclude infinite dimensionality.


I get what you’re saying and I partially agree. However, The innumerable dimensions mentioned by Rama Kushna weren’t even specified as “higher dimensions” in the comics. Also during the same storyline the third kingdom which encompasses the imaginable worlds/higher dimensions were said to transcend the second kingdom which is essentially three dimensional spacetime,


Read what I said above.

Are you just stuck in denial in this scan he literally pulls creation into the void it's not rocket science.

Then Animal master recreate creation have given you multiple proof yet you just don't want to accept saying there could be an alternate scenario with nothing to back it. I showed scan of him pulling creation into void. Then buddy fixed creation and the works of creation, the source all this are yet you keep on denying it with head canon so if you ask me you are the one being childish.

Also they multiple proof to assume universe in this scan means creation. First of it says without them the work of creation will cease the source the m field which are dimensions realm so can't possibly save the source and m field just by creating a measley universe that doesn't make any sense. The other scan also state if Atagon wins creation would be sucked into the void you kept on saying there are no proof of Atagon being the one who does this feat. Then I provided scans him doing it. Which further proves that universe in that statement means creation.

 

[Xearsay]

Your entire explanation for what he did falls under what a reference is

Referencing is the action of mentioning or alluding to something and nothing more. What James Higherwater did was not only offer in universe theorization of the implicate reality but also equate it to the higher world Buddy witnessed in his out of body experience. That’s much more than just simply mentioning or alluding to something. The only reason you're trying to misinterpret this as just a simple reference is so you can continue to remain in denial.

Also a couple comments ago you completely ignored me mentioning there to be a narration of reality being called explicate unfolding from the implicate.

You have not provided any explanation for why the phrase "stretches to infinity" refers to the amount of dimensions rather than the size. Both are reasonable interpretations of those two scans, if you don't have any evidence to distinguish one possibility from the others, it remains an unproven theory.

I already answered this.

Except it blatantly states the lifeweb stretches to infinity so there’s no need to do any assumption making. Knowing that the lifeweb which reflects higher dimensions stretches all the way to infinity, we can conclude that there is infinite dimensionality.

If you feel that it has relevance to the discussion feel free to provide the scans and I will assess them and respond.

Scan 1

Scan 2

 

[Xearsay]

Also that scan blatantly showcases Antagon's power being the cause of reality getting sucked into the Void. So I don't know why you're still denying that.

 

[Deagonx]

Are you just stuck in denial in this scan he literally pulls creation into the void it's not rocket science.

This is just you saying it's obvious yet again. I'll repeat, can you explain specifically what in that scan makes you think that?

Then Animal master recreate creation have given you multiple proof

And I demonstrated that "creation" refers to merely a single universe.

Also they multiple proof to assume universe in this scan means creation

Creation doesn't mean all of existence. I already explained this, they say "a creation" and "this creation" later indicating creation is not a totality but just one universe among many.

Referencing is the action of mentioning or alluding to something and nothing more

The word reference does not have the limitation you are suggesting.

What James Higherwater did was not only offer in universe theorization of the implicate reality but also equate it to the higher world Buddy witnessed in his out of body experience. That’s much more than just simply mentioning or alluding to something. The only reason you're trying to misinterpret this as just a simple reference is so you can continue to remain in denial.

Denial would be thinking a single character statement referencing Bohm's theory alongside three other different theories is enough evidence on it's own to justify a CRT. You haven't provided enough evidence for your theory, no reason to get mad at me for your lack of evidence.

Also a couple comments ago you completely ignored me mentioning there to be a narration of reality being called explicate unfolding from the implicate.

Because you didn't source it.

I already answered this.

Except it blatantly states the lifeweb stretches to infinity so there’s no need to do any assumption making. Knowing that the lifeweb which reflects higher dimensions stretches all the way to infinity, we can conclude that there is infinite dimensionality.

You have failed to provide reasoning for your conclusion. You seem to be implying that the mention of Lifeweb stretching to infinity does all the work for us, but as I pointed out, that could simply be referring to the higher dimensions being infinite in size, not quantity. You have provided no refutation for this alternative possibility, which makes your theory unproven.

I can use your same reasoning to present the following:

Except it blatantly states the lifeweb stretches to infinity so there’s no need to do any assumption making. Knowing that the lifeweb which reflects higher dimensions stretches all the way to infinity, we can conclude that the higher dimensions are infinite in size.

You've yet to explain why this alternative is not viable.

Scan 1

Scan 2

This proves my point pretty solidly. Doctor Varma, as well as James, aren't actually stating any of this definitively, they reference a variety of theories that he believes are implicated by Buddy's experience, but he doesn't know for sure which one is accurate. He clearly isn't an authority on DC cosmology, he's merely a scholar that is familiar with the wide array of spiritual and philosophical belief systems that relate to what Buddy experienced. If referencing Bohm's theory makes it canon, then now so is the Aboriginal Dreamtime, the Nagual of the Yaqui Indians, etc.

When in reality all they are doing is theorizing based on theories that they are familiar with in academia.

Likewise, with reference to the reason you posted these scans, that's what I'm saying. What Dr. Varma is referring to in the context of Shamanic cosmology as higher dimensions isn't necessarily the same as what is being referred to as the life-web's higher dimensions. Because with Shamanic beliefs, the spiritual world is not one that has more geospatial dimensions. It's just a realm, so even if you had an infinite amount it would be irrelevant. But again, you've yet to give evidence of that.

Also that scan blatantly showcases Antagon's power being the cause of reality getting sucked into the Void. So I don't know why you're still denying that.

I haven't denied it, I'm waiting for a justification. What you find "blatant" is not evidence.

 

[Westcoast5005]

There is no point of continue debating with you cause it seems you're just fixed on what you believe with no solid basis. Anyway this should be decided by voting let's see the out come.

 

[Westcoast5005]

Also where the hell did it say a creation I only see this creation and works of creation. And all you are saying as being full of assumption and constant denial for some weird reason.

 

[Deagonx]

There is no point of continue debating with you cause it seems you're just fixed on what you believe with no solid basis

You've failed to substantiate your main points with evidence, your response to requests to provide your reasoning has been met with "it's obvious" and other hostility, and you haven't actually engaged with the counterpoints that come from your evidence. The wording clearly indicates that "creation" is non-specific, and when this was pointed out you side-stepped it entirely.

Anyway this should be decided by voting let's see the out come.

CRTs are never decided by voting, that would be a terrible way of doing them. It would literally devolve into a fandom war.

Also where the hell did it say a creation I only see this creation and works of creation.

"This creation" indicates an indefinite noun, which means there are multiple creations. Likewise, you still haven't provided a justification for defining "creation" as "the entire cosmology" in this context, and Animal Man literally says "a universe."

 

[Westcoast5005]

You've failed to substantiate your main points with evidence, your response to requests to provide your reasoning has been met with "it's obvious" and other hostility, and you haven't actually engaged with the counterpoints that come from your evidence. The wording clearly indicates that "creation" is non-specific, and when this was pointed out you side-stepped it entirely.


CRTs are never decided by voting, that would be a terrible way of doing them. It would literally devolve into a fandom war.


"This creation" indicates an indefinite noun, which means there are multiple creations. Likewise, you still haven't provided a justification for defining "creation" as "the entire cosmology" in this context, and Animal Man literally says "a universe."

I have explained it sufficiently but you just denied it on no basis.

Also what if animal man says a universe it isn't a debunk read the scan the other animal master asks should they create animals buddy said no a universe. Why would he say the creation or the universe when the universe/creation is already destroy. Also they are multiple creation and multiverse in DC. Also you have failed to explain how just creating just an ordinary universe saves the source you just keep on denying for no reason or basis I thought In a debate you use proof.

 

[Xearsay]

The word reference does not have the limitation you are suggesting.

Unless there’s some additional part of the definition that I’m missing, this is literally all it means.

Denial would be thinking a single character statement referencing Bohm's theory alongside three other different theories is enough evidence on it's own to justify a CRT. You haven't provided enough evidence for your theory, no reason to get mad at me for your lack of evidence.

This is a blatant strawman. It was never about Bohm theory being referenced. It was about him incorporating the idea of explicate reality unfolding from the implicate. With reality later being called the explicate unfolding from the implicate.

Because you didn't source it.

Here’s the scan.

You have failed to provide reasoning for your conclusion. You seem to be implying that the mention of Lifeweb stretching to infinity does all the work for us, but as I pointed out, that could simply be referring to the higher dimensions being infinite in size, not quantity. You have provided no refutation for this alternative possibility, which makes your theory unproven.


I can use your same reasoning to present the following:

Except it blatantly states the lifeweb stretches to infinity so there’s no need to do any assumption making. Knowing that the lifeweb which reflects higher dimensions stretches all the way to infinity, we can conclude that the higher dimensions are infinite in size.

You've yet to explain why this alternative is not viable.

That’s because your alternative possibility isn’t a possibility in the first places as for the scans to imply the dimensions are infinite in size would literally require them to state the higher dimensions are stretching to infinity and not the lifeweb.

This proves my point pretty solidly. Doctor Varma, as well as James, aren't actually stating any of this definitively, they reference a variety of theories that he believes are implicated by Buddy's experience, but he doesn't know for sure which one is accurate. He clearly isn't an authority on DC cosmology, he's merely a scholar that is familiar with the wide array of spiritual and philosophical belief systems that relate to what Buddy experienced. If referencing Bohm's theory makes it canon, then now so is the Aboriginal Dreamtime, the Nagual of the Yaqui Indians, etc.

When in reality all they are doing is theorizing based on theories that they are familiar with in academia.

Likewise, with reference to the reason you posted these scans, that's what I'm saying. What Dr. Varma is referring to in the context of Shamanic cosmology as higher dimensions isn't necessarily the same as what is being referred to as the life-web's higher dimensions. Because with Shamanic beliefs, the spiritual world is not one that has more geospatial dimensions. It's just a realm, so even if you had an infinite amount it would be irrelevant. But again, you've yet to give evidence of that.

This is just poor excuse making at this point. The whole point of there characters in these moments that Buddy has his out of body experiences, is to hint at how the Red actually functions. Hence why the story would later on identify reality as the explicate unfolding from the implicate.

Also that’s not the point. This conversation Buddy and Doctor Varma are having is about the Red Dreams/out of body experience Buddy has been having when he did things like exploring the Lifeweb. Doctor Varma would then bring up how Buddys experiences are like the Shamanic experiences and cosmology. Doctor Varma would next break down the cosmology of the Shamans and equate it with theoretical physics.

first kingdom/hell can be thought of as the quantum realm.

The Second kingdom/Mans experience can be thought of as three dimensional spacetime.

And the Third kingdom/imaginal can be thought of as higher dimensions.

 

[Antvasima]

Deagonx makes a much better case above. We should end this argument now.

Would you be willing to write a draft text for a footnote explanation please?

 

[Westcoast5005]

No he doesn't make a better case IN no way shape or form. All is case are based on assumption and denial. And last time check we do this on majority not one person to decide.

 

[Xearsay]

Deagonx makes a much better case above. We should end this argument now.

Would you be willing to write a draft text for a footnote explanation please?

That’s just not true… He’s literally being in denial about multiple things that we’re discussing in this thread.

1. He said Antagon wasn’t the cause of the destruction to reality despite the illustration showcasing Antagon destroying reality.

2. He denies the usage of Bohm Theory in the cosmology despite reality being called explicate unfolding from the implicate.

3. He denied the infinite dimensional lifeweb statement, saying it can be interpreted in different ways. Which just isn’t true as it’s stated that the lifeweb is infinite and not each dimensions size.

That’s like me saying the sentence “John likes to eat apples” can be interpreted as John likes to drink apple juice. The sentence doesn’t mention John liking apple juice. It only mentions John liking to eat apples. Therefore it can’t be interpreted as such.

 

[Deagonx]

Also what if animal man says a universe it isn't a debunk read the scan the other animal master asks should they create animals buddy said no a universe. Why would he say the creation or the universe when the universe/creation is already destroy.

That still means it's a single universe, not all of existence.

Also you have failed to explain how just creating just an ordinary universe saves the source you just keep on denying for no reason or basis I thought In a debate you use proof.

I don't know why creating a universe saves the M-Field. I don't need to know in order for that to be the case. Likewise, he's not talking about The Source, he's referring to the M-Field as the source.

Unless there’s some additional part of the definition that I’m missing, this is literally all it means.

The definition I provided encompasses that.

It was never about Bohm theory being referenced. It was about him incorporating the idea of explicate reality unfolding from the implicate

That's referencing Bohm's theory. He is "incorporating the idea" by mentioning that Bohm thought that.

"Basically what Bohm is saying that reality is unfolded out of a higher state -- the implicate order."

Here’s the scan.

Okay, so that's one instance in which DC is described WoG to be aligned with Bohm's theory. That scan was addressed in PotM's blog, with the following addition:

''What does this even matter?'

Nothing, just some passing statements in random comics. Unless of course there's a plethora of evidence that DC functions pretty much exactly in the manner described above.'

He's correct, it doesn't matter unless there's a plethora of evidence that DC functions in that manner, and there is not, it is one comic book from the 90s that briefly references the concept. Bohm's theory doesn't even necessitate infinite geospatial dimensions. His original text on the topic refers to the amount as "effectively infinite" which is distinctly not infinite. So even if we were to accept a passing statement in a random comic, we still wouldn't know if the amount of dimensions was infinite.

That’s because your alternative possibility isn’t a possibility in the first places as for the scans to imply the dimensions are infinite in size would literally require them to state the higher dimensions are stretching to infinity and not the lifeweb.

Your objection is that the infinite size interpretation wasn't specifically stated, but the infinite amount interpretation was also unstated, you've provided no reason for picking one over the other aside from your inclination.

The lifeweb stretching to infinity does not imply that the amount of higher dimensions is infinite. We know that the lifeweb contains mirrors that reflects higher dimensions, and that it stretches to infinity. You've repeatedly failed to provide a basis for the conclusion that those two pieces of information indicate an infinite amount of dimensions. I could just as easily write "the universe stretches to infinity, and contains mirrors of higher dimensions" and that wouldn't necessitate an infinite amount of higher dimensions. Nothing about that changes when you say "lifeweb."

This is just poor excuse making at this point. The whole point of there characters in these moments that Buddy has his out of body experiences, is to hint at how the Red actually functions.

Your guess about what the point of the characters was isn't evidence. Likewise, Bohm's theory is just one that is mentioned amongst many others.

This conversation Buddy and Doctor Varma are having is about the Red Dreams/out of body experience Buddy has been having when he did things like exploring the Lifeweb. Doctor Varma would then bring up how Buddys experiences are like the Shamanic experiences and cosmology. Doctor Varma would next break down the cosmology of the Shamans and equate it with theoretical physics.

Yes, that's precisely the same thing James did. James brings up how Buddy's experiences are similar in concept to the Nagual, the Dreamtime, and Bohm's theories, amongst others. Varma relates them to Shamanic religious beliefs as well as his own personal theories about the world.

He said Antagon wasn’t the cause of the destruction

No, I did not.

despite the illustration showcasing Antagon destroying reality.

How does it showcase that?

He denies the usage of Bohm Theory in the cosmology

No, I didn't.

despite reality being called explicate unfolding from the implicate.

You literally only provided evidence for this in your last comment which hasn't been responded to yet.

He denied the infinite dimensional lifeweb statement, saying it can be interpreted in different ways

This is true.

Which just isn’t true as it’s stated that the lifeweb is infinite and not each dimensions size.

The lifeweb can be infinite, and contain mirrors reflecting higher dimensions, without there being an infinite amount of those dimensions. The two are not mutually inclusive in the way you've suggest, and you've provided no logical basis for them being mutually inclusive.

The sentence doesn’t mention John liking apple juice. It only mentions John liking to eat apples. Therefore it can’t be interpreted as such.

Except the comic says the lifeweb stretches to infinity, not "an infinite amount of higher dimensions." Infinity could refer to different things, and you've given no reason to interpret it as an infinite amount of higher dimensions.

 

[Deagonx]

Would you be willing to write a draft text for a footnote explanation please?

Sure, how's this:

The possibility of upgrading Animal Man to Tier 1 has been discussed with regard to the description of the Lifeweb, scaling to Antagon (who may have pulled creation into the void), creating a universe, as well as a reference to Bohm's theory of implicate order. However, it has been rejected due to the lack of direct evidence for how that information would justify a Tier 1 rating.

---- and if you want me to be specific ----

The Lifeweb is both described as containing mirrors that reflect 'higher dimensions', and that it stretches to infinity, this has been theorized to indicate that there are an infinite amount of higher dimensions, but since neither the quality (what kind of dimension) nor quantity (how many dimensions) of those dimensions is expanded upon, it's unusable for a Tier 1 rating. The Lifeweb 'stretching to infinity' isn't evidence of infinite higher dimensions, as it's perfectly plausible for an structure that stretches to infinity to contain a finite amount of higher dimensions.

It is unclear how powerful Antagon is, due to vagueness in the illustrations and language used to describe him. For this reason, scaling is not viable. Further, the full scale of the 'creation' that Antagon would hypothetically be pulling into the void. Within the story it appears that the terms 'creation' and 'universe' are being used interchangeably, which further obfuscates the true scale of the feat.

Creating a universe is a powerful feat, but is nowhere near Tier 1 without additional evidence explaining what that universe entails, which is not provided in the story.

Bohm's theory might suggest an effectively infinite, but not truly infinite, amount of geospatial dimensions, however, to use this for a Tier 1 rating would require more evidence beyond two brief references in a single comic book, as it's vastly inconsistent with other descriptions of DC cosmology.

 

[Westcoast5005]

Here comes more head canon and denial. Can't show a single scan or proof. can't prove how creating a single 3-d universe affects the source honestly this is funny. You kept saying Atagon isn't the one who would destroy creation then I shower you proof then you say it just a universe not creation. When they are other proof and the narrative literally contradicted your claims.
also tell me whendc has ever used creation to represent universe. When creation literally means the totality of DC multiverse.