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Or, Why I Believe Our Crossover Standards Need Adjustment
Pictured: Super Robot Wars, The Real Most Ambitious Crossover of All Time
Introduction
So... Currently this website follows a very strict, though unspoken rule when it comes to Crossovers: Simply put, they aren't allowed. Like, ever.
As the argument goes, Crossovers cannot ever be utilized for feats, scaling, and profiles, as they are by nature non-canon and do not legitimate installments of either franchise, with characters having their strength and powers modified to better serve the plot.
People point to things such as games Marvel vs Capcom, where Ryu from Street Fighter can fight The Hulk, or Mortal Kombat vs DC Universe where Raiden and Superman are comparable to each other. Or even something like Toriko x One Piece x Dragon Ball, where the protagonists of the aforementioned anime are portrayed as equals despite how absurd that is.
That is, quite honestly... A very terrible argument. It is a blatant, quite frankly hasty Generalization that simply dismisses and ignores numerous Crossover examples which do not fit that description.
Factually speaking, not every Crossover has illogical Scaling, and not every Crossover should instantly be dismissed as non-canon. In fact, there are plenty of Crossovers which are demonstrably, indubitably canon. If only to one side of the crossover.
But I'll get back to this soon.
Explanation
Now, I can already hear a lot of you thinking: "But Matthew, how can a Crossover ever possibly be canon, and how can you seriously suggest accept scaling from them?"
And I perfectly understand that line of thinking. I even shared it once. But as I learned of various fictional universes where that is precisely the case, I saw that I was arguing from ignorance and disbelief.
Therefore, I think that the best way to prove my point is to speak through such fictional examples. So here's a small list, pulled simply out of memory, of Canon Crossovers in Fiction:
01) Dead or Alive / Ninja Gaiden / Virtua Fighter:
This is one of the most well-known examples. Ryu Hayabusa first appeared in a Dead or Alive game simply because both franchises were made by the same studio, and he is a popular character. Since then, the two series have gone to make several more crossovers, with characters from either series making cameo appearances in the other, thus establishing that they share a universe. But it is important to remember that this wasn't always the plan.
More recently, Virtua Fighter has Crossed-over with Dead or Alive, with several characters from the series have made cameo appearances in the Dead or Alive V Story Mode, where you face against them in unskippable fights. Given that they simply show up in the Story, no attention is made over the fact that they're there (Such as they arriving in another universe through a portal or something cliched like that), and the scenes are all unskippable, I think it's also safe to say that this is a case of a Canon Crossover.
02) Street Fighter / Tekke
This is another very famous, recent example involving fighting games, and I believe it requires no explanation. Akuma from Street Fighter appears in the Tekken 7 Story Mode, and fights against both Heihachi and Kazuya. He isn't a meaningless joke cameo, or a DLC Secret Boss like he was in Asura's Wrath. He's a direct part of the storyline, that cannot be skipped or ignored, and his canonicity was even reinforced by Katsuhiro Harada. Whether or not he's the same Akuma from Street Fighter or an alternate version is debatable, but this Crossover is objectively canon.
03) Shin Megami Tensei / Devil May Cry:
Another popular one, that definitely requires no deep explanation. Shin Megami Tensei III: Nocturne(Featuring Dante from the Devil May Cry Series) has a version of Dante appearing in its storymode, where he is hired by Lucifer to assassinate the Demi-Fiend, and eventually joins his forces and decides to participate in the battle between Law and Chaos. You are obligated to meet and defeat him to reach the game's True Demon Ending, making his role in the story essential.
04) Dissidia Final Fantasy:
Dissidia Final Fantasy is also an example of a Canonical Crossover. The Final Fantasy series has always had a history of crossing-over between installments due to characters like Gilgamesh and Shinryu explicitly being the same in every game, and possessing the ability to travel between universes, as well as recurring plot elements such as The Void & The Cloud of Darkness.
But Dissidia takes it to another level, crossing-over every installment of the franchise. And it ain't just for show and celebration either. The characters are directly shown to have been pulled from their respective worlds into World B, Gilgamesh is there and references meeting Squall and Zidane in the past, and it is only through Dissidia that we learn the actual character and backstory of the Warrior of Light.
In fact, Dissidia is pretty much the new canonical depiction of Final Fantasy I, with so much of that game's world being fleshed out in it, such as having Chaos inspire Garland to become him during the time loop, and a ton of backstory for Cid of the Lufaine. Dissidia even ends with the Warrior of Light heading out to his Final Fantasy I journey.
Of course, a lot of the scaling in Dissidia is absolute garbage, and if used would end up with every Final Fantasy protagonist being Low 2-C. But that is no reason to dismiss its importance to the plot, nor the feats that Final Fantasy I characters get in it. In that case, simply deem it an outlier for the other characters and don't scale them from it.
05) All of Studio Trigger
This one is a little more debatable, but can easily be argued for. Essentially, Studio Trigger does not take it's Anime productions 100% seriously, and has no problem having them crossover from time to time (In fact, the existence of an absolute divide between Canon & Non-Canon is a very western concept, and Japanese Productions tend to be a lot looser with it).
For example, Life Fibers from Kill la Kill have shown up in Space Patrol Luluco, and Luluco herself has been transported into the world of Little Witch Academia. As has Inferno Cop(The best anime of all time) met with her. This could all be taken as merely tongue-and-cheek references and jokes, but quite recently Producer Hiromi Wakabayashi has said that characters like Luluco and Inferno Cop can travel between universes, and that these crossover appearances are legitimate.
There's no big crossover event (Yet!) nor any scaling to be had here, but it is just an example of a Japanese Studio treating its crossovers as legitimate.
06) All of Nitroplus
Well, not all of it, but at least the majority. This is a subject which I admittedly do not have full understanding off, with ALRF being far more knowledgeable in it than I. But basically, characters from most every every Nitroplus game ever released make Cameo appearances in Soukou Akki Muramasa, albeit in a Dream Sequence. That in of itself wouldn't mean much, but years later the Crossover Fighting Game Nitroplus Blasterz was released, featuring characters from over 20 different Nitroplus series (As well as Saber and Homura from Fate/Zero and Senran Kagura respectively).
Again, that wouldn't be a problem either. Just a celebratory crossover like many before it. The issue, however, arises with the fact that Niroplus Blasterz is surprisingly plot-heavy, and is in fact a Demonbane installment in disguise. The story of Blasterz continues directly from the two original Visual Novels, as well as serving as a prequel for the DYN Freaks manga, to the point that is essential for understanding the whole story (The whole "Demonbane destroyed the Outer Gods and blew up infinite - 1 universes?" that happens here. And they directly state that he destroyed the universes of the Crossover characters, as well).
Of course, Nitroplus Blasterz is most definitely not Canon to every single installment that's crossing-over with it, specially not the Nasuverse and Senran Kagura. But it is absolutely canon for Demonbane, and should be treated as such. This is a direct example of what I mentioned at the very beginning: Crossovers can be Canon to one side, and Non-Canon to the other.
For another example of this, look at the Doctor Who Novel: The Coming of the Terraphiles, written by Michael Moorcock. The story directly links Doctor Who with Moorcock's Elric Saga Multiverse, even implying that The Doctor is an incarnation of the Eternal Champion. The end result of this is that Doctor Who is likely canon to Elric of Melniboné, but Elric of Melniboné is most definitely not canon to Doctor Who, if you want things to keep making sense in any way.
And frankly, I could keep going all day with examples, but I think these will be enough for now. I hope they allowed me to make my point clearer.
Conclusion
So, what exactly am I suggesting? Well, two things:
Pictured: Super Robot Wars, The Real Most Ambitious Crossover of All Time
Introduction
So... Currently this website follows a very strict, though unspoken rule when it comes to Crossovers: Simply put, they aren't allowed. Like, ever.
As the argument goes, Crossovers cannot ever be utilized for feats, scaling, and profiles, as they are by nature non-canon and do not legitimate installments of either franchise, with characters having their strength and powers modified to better serve the plot.
People point to things such as games Marvel vs Capcom, where Ryu from Street Fighter can fight The Hulk, or Mortal Kombat vs DC Universe where Raiden and Superman are comparable to each other. Or even something like Toriko x One Piece x Dragon Ball, where the protagonists of the aforementioned anime are portrayed as equals despite how absurd that is.
That is, quite honestly... A very terrible argument. It is a blatant, quite frankly hasty Generalization that simply dismisses and ignores numerous Crossover examples which do not fit that description.
Factually speaking, not every Crossover has illogical Scaling, and not every Crossover should instantly be dismissed as non-canon. In fact, there are plenty of Crossovers which are demonstrably, indubitably canon. If only to one side of the crossover.
But I'll get back to this soon.
Explanation
Now, I can already hear a lot of you thinking: "But Matthew, how can a Crossover ever possibly be canon, and how can you seriously suggest accept scaling from them?"
And I perfectly understand that line of thinking. I even shared it once. But as I learned of various fictional universes where that is precisely the case, I saw that I was arguing from ignorance and disbelief.
Therefore, I think that the best way to prove my point is to speak through such fictional examples. So here's a small list, pulled simply out of memory, of Canon Crossovers in Fiction:
01) Dead or Alive / Ninja Gaiden / Virtua Fighter:
This is one of the most well-known examples. Ryu Hayabusa first appeared in a Dead or Alive game simply because both franchises were made by the same studio, and he is a popular character. Since then, the two series have gone to make several more crossovers, with characters from either series making cameo appearances in the other, thus establishing that they share a universe. But it is important to remember that this wasn't always the plan.
More recently, Virtua Fighter has Crossed-over with Dead or Alive, with several characters from the series have made cameo appearances in the Dead or Alive V Story Mode, where you face against them in unskippable fights. Given that they simply show up in the Story, no attention is made over the fact that they're there (Such as they arriving in another universe through a portal or something cliched like that), and the scenes are all unskippable, I think it's also safe to say that this is a case of a Canon Crossover.
02) Street Fighter / Tekke
This is another very famous, recent example involving fighting games, and I believe it requires no explanation. Akuma from Street Fighter appears in the Tekken 7 Story Mode, and fights against both Heihachi and Kazuya. He isn't a meaningless joke cameo, or a DLC Secret Boss like he was in Asura's Wrath. He's a direct part of the storyline, that cannot be skipped or ignored, and his canonicity was even reinforced by Katsuhiro Harada. Whether or not he's the same Akuma from Street Fighter or an alternate version is debatable, but this Crossover is objectively canon.
03) Shin Megami Tensei / Devil May Cry:
Another popular one, that definitely requires no deep explanation. Shin Megami Tensei III: Nocturne
04) Dissidia Final Fantasy:
Dissidia Final Fantasy is also an example of a Canonical Crossover. The Final Fantasy series has always had a history of crossing-over between installments due to characters like Gilgamesh and Shinryu explicitly being the same in every game, and possessing the ability to travel between universes, as well as recurring plot elements such as The Void & The Cloud of Darkness.
But Dissidia takes it to another level, crossing-over every installment of the franchise. And it ain't just for show and celebration either. The characters are directly shown to have been pulled from their respective worlds into World B, Gilgamesh is there and references meeting Squall and Zidane in the past, and it is only through Dissidia that we learn the actual character and backstory of the Warrior of Light.
In fact, Dissidia is pretty much the new canonical depiction of Final Fantasy I, with so much of that game's world being fleshed out in it, such as having Chaos inspire Garland to become him during the time loop, and a ton of backstory for Cid of the Lufaine. Dissidia even ends with the Warrior of Light heading out to his Final Fantasy I journey.
Of course, a lot of the scaling in Dissidia is absolute garbage, and if used would end up with every Final Fantasy protagonist being Low 2-C. But that is no reason to dismiss its importance to the plot, nor the feats that Final Fantasy I characters get in it. In that case, simply deem it an outlier for the other characters and don't scale them from it.
05) All of Studio Trigger
This one is a little more debatable, but can easily be argued for. Essentially, Studio Trigger does not take it's Anime productions 100% seriously, and has no problem having them crossover from time to time (In fact, the existence of an absolute divide between Canon & Non-Canon is a very western concept, and Japanese Productions tend to be a lot looser with it).
For example, Life Fibers from Kill la Kill have shown up in Space Patrol Luluco, and Luluco herself has been transported into the world of Little Witch Academia. As has Inferno Cop
There's no big crossover event (Yet!) nor any scaling to be had here, but it is just an example of a Japanese Studio treating its crossovers as legitimate.
06) All of Nitroplus
Well, not all of it, but at least the majority. This is a subject which I admittedly do not have full understanding off, with ALRF being far more knowledgeable in it than I. But basically, characters from most every every Nitroplus game ever released make Cameo appearances in Soukou Akki Muramasa, albeit in a Dream Sequence. That in of itself wouldn't mean much, but years later the Crossover Fighting Game Nitroplus Blasterz was released, featuring characters from over 20 different Nitroplus series (As well as Saber and Homura from Fate/Zero and Senran Kagura respectively).
Again, that wouldn't be a problem either. Just a celebratory crossover like many before it. The issue, however, arises with the fact that Niroplus Blasterz is surprisingly plot-heavy, and is in fact a Demonbane installment in disguise. The story of Blasterz continues directly from the two original Visual Novels, as well as serving as a prequel for the DYN Freaks manga, to the point that is essential for understanding the whole story (The whole "Demonbane destroyed the Outer Gods and blew up infinite - 1 universes?" that happens here. And they directly state that he destroyed the universes of the Crossover characters, as well).
Of course, Nitroplus Blasterz is most definitely not Canon to every single installment that's crossing-over with it, specially not the Nasuverse and Senran Kagura. But it is absolutely canon for Demonbane, and should be treated as such. This is a direct example of what I mentioned at the very beginning: Crossovers can be Canon to one side, and Non-Canon to the other.
For another example of this, look at the Doctor Who Novel: The Coming of the Terraphiles, written by Michael Moorcock. The story directly links Doctor Who with Moorcock's Elric Saga Multiverse, even implying that The Doctor is an incarnation of the Eternal Champion. The end result of this is that Doctor Who is likely canon to Elric of Melniboné, but Elric of Melniboné is most definitely not canon to Doctor Who, if you want things to keep making sense in any way.
And frankly, I could keep going all day with examples, but I think these will be enough for now. I hope they allowed me to make my point clearer.
Conclusion
So, what exactly am I suggesting? Well, two things:
- 01) Stop treating every single Crossover as unacceptable and unusable.
- 02) Accept Crossover feats when they are shown to be Canon. Case-by-case analysis applies here.
