A lazy man and his gigantic text (Guardian Downgrade and Additions)

[Penguinkingpin]

Well, in the most recent DLC release, Forsaken, we see that the Ascendent Realm can impact the tangible universe as when Riven began controlling the taken and corrupting the Scorn.

 

[Penguinkingpin]

@Wokistan. True, but the Guardian's have Light, which grants them paracasual abilities not replicable unless they encounter another paracasual entity such as the Taken and Hive Gods.

 

[Wokistan]

Well yeah it can affect it to a degree. The dreadnaught superweapon is actually just Oryx making his realm bigger. Oryx just isn't tier 2 outside his bubble even if he can expand it.

 

[Penguinkingpin]

Then I guess we say that the Vex Minds aren't tier 2 unless they're inside their respective vault/realm. Atheon would only be tier 4-B outside the vault and Panoptes would only be tier 2 inside the simulation forest.

 

[Wokistan]

Yeah. Their goal is to be tier 2 outside, but they're not there yet.

 

[CNBA3]

Some Golden age tech iirc has Traverler influence, going to have to look that up, even Warminds are considered too complex for Vex.

And for Riven, this isn't the first time we see and ascendent realm affecting the physical one, via Oryx and his death pulses from the dreadnaught

 

[Wokistan]

I never said that Hive gods were absolutely powerless outside their own realms Oryx is still insane in material form. Thing is, he's tiers 5/4 and not 2.

 

[CNBA3]

I never said you did say that, I am saying that Oryx is still powerful in the materium, but more powerful inside his ascendant realm via Sword Logic, and that is why Guardians are only that strong in his realm because we followed the sword logic.

There was even a fallen Kell that fought with Oryx before being taken.

 

[Penguinkingpin]

@Woke. Actually, that makes sense. So, tier 4-B in the tangible realm, tier 2-? when inside their respective reality.

 

[Wokistan]

Skolas once broke into the VoG, stole Vex tech, and would have gotten away with it was it not for those meddling Guardians, so some Kells being that strong isn't even that crazy.

Atheon and Panoptes never left the VoG, so we don't know how that'd affect their other powers. I'm pretty sure the files rn specify that those are their ratings in vex space.

 

[GalaxianAegis]

@Penguin We are going to need another thread to discuss whether the nature of the Vex inside their realms is going to be 2-A or not. Furthermore, this will also determine how we scale the Ascendant Realm and other similar places.

 

[CNBA3]

Yeah, they would be that effective in Vex space, but can be outside Vex space too if combined with the black heart which allowed the vex powers to leave at least the vault of glass

 

[Archaron]

High 2-A's the next dimensional step up from 4-D, though the ascendant plane may be 5-D which would give Oryx and his daughters 5-D hax. That's gonna be settled with Oryx though.

Be prepared, I eventually have a base to up Savath├╗n for one Higher Dimensional.

 

[Archaron]

@Galaxian So, this is something I've seen and something I have a major issue with. Oryx at his strongest is low 2-C, possibly higher. But the Vex Minds are 2-A. It's been explicitly stated that the way the Vex became so strong was that they mimicked the Hive's Sword Logic and Worship of Worms . It's also been stated that Oryx took Quira, Blade Transform and gifted her to Savuthu , who is arguably the strongest Vex Mind being the one who helped the Vex battle the Hive in the Ascendent Realm. It was also shown during their fight, Quira attempted to comprehend Oryx nature and power, and couldn't even do that. The best that Quira could do was simulate Aurash, the previous incarnate of Oryx. My proposition is that both Oryx and the Guardian are adjusted to "at least 2-A, possibly higher," since it was seen that the Vex Minds couldn't comprehend or even rival Oryx power and the Guardian scales to Oryx for obvious reasons, that'd be defeating him, and Xol, another Worm God, though Xol was weaker than Oryx, the two would at least be comparable.

That base is weak, I've refuted this. First of all he was already stronger than any axis mind from the moment he acquired the sword logic, and beyond it he did other things to become more powerful still within the limits of the hive and the vexs, an axis mind no longer if compared to him more, he was superior as a stone against a house, that would be the close comparison of the power of quria against the other axis mind. Anyone can imitate the sword logic btw, and customs of the hive also just see hiraks as an example. Vexs can not simulate or understand beings connected to light or darkness, so it is no use to use this argument to magnify the oryx is a basic logic. And I've already explained why the 3 axis minds of VoG, IF, and nessus are 2-A, the rest being just like the aegis said 4-B.

 

[Archaron]

It's also possible that the Guardian from the two games isn't the same entity and each game will have a different protagonist which will have their own feats and tier to scale to.

This would be crazy, and I do not joke when I say that you should not think this and even come to consider this, it is explicit if you read the dialogues that the same of destiny 1 is the same as 2.

They beat him by using his own power to harm him, and through extensive prep to cripple him before the fight even began. Even when you reach him he's still immune to everything you do.

"They" no "He". The gameplay can be in a group but the story is 1 guardian vs. the whole court of oryx. Against oryx, he it never got weaker, it only temporarily left it vulnerable, just same as against riven you have to attack the core, because in itself the rest will never hurt.

Yes they don't become the Taken King, but that doesn't mean they don't retain the power they earned through Sword Logic. In fact, it would make less sense if they didn't retain the power, since that's how Sword Logic works. The way Oryx became so powerful was by killing Akka, A Hive Worm God.

This logic is wrong. Did the guardian gain a throne world when he defeated oryx? Hiraks when he killed cayde won a throne world, why? The answer is simple, the guardian does not use the sword logic but rather the whole place, each being there except for him and his light and his ghost. The sword logic he denied it he did not own it, but he fought someone who had the same, he does not use and will never use anything given by the power of sword logic, but of course defying someone who owns it automatically will be passively up, but in the end, if he refuses to that logic, he will not gain anything from it after.

 

[Archaron]

I really have to do a blog about Light (Sky) and Darkness (Deep), the world of the throne by sword logic and vex networks.

 

[CNBA3]

Actually, now that I think about it, with Quria vs Oryx, shouldn't it be roughly Solar Sustem as well? Since there is no information of their battle being in the ascendent realm or vex network? This happened on a ship which was in the materium.

Also I intend to do a calc for Quria's and our Ghost's information processing power.

Since Oryx gave a statement that Quria has a galaxy worth of thinking matter which I take is data. And our ghost managed to process information in a supercomputer that broke the Bekenstein limit.

 

[Archaron]

You forgot to quote, quria fought against much of the court and children of oryx before fighting it.

Vexs can simulate from within themselves anything from a planet to a universe, I do not think it will make much difference.

 

[CNBA3]

But that is when they were in the ascendent realm where the sword logic is the strongest, here is the quote for both oryx and quria's battle in the materium.

You got a point for the simulations, maybe, but out of curiousity I will try for Quria. But for the ghost I will still do that

 

[Archaron]

Oryx makes explicit that that ship (dreadnaught) is his throne.

 

[Wokistan]

When oryx fought quria for the second time it wasn't on the dreadnaught though, and he still stomped.

 

[Antvasima]

@Wokistan

You can place a note on my message wall when you have reached a decision and need pages unlocked.

 

[CNBA3]

So after a bit of research, I found the highest shown processing power of a Ghost since vanilla D1. but first there is the information on how to do that, so during the mission World's Grave, the Ghost mentions that the World's Grave broke the Bekenstein Limit, which is the max limit a finite space can contain information before collapsing into a black hole, and the Ghost managed to get that info, and that info contained date on the Darkness consuming thousands of worlds. So we need to find the components, but first is a bit of pixel calcing:

from a bit of height comparison, humans are roughly the same height as the Acolyte, which is what I will use for the measurement: Human roughly 63.8 in:

https://imgur.com/o1QnKxq 1857px = 63.8in = Acolyte Height 1047px = 35.97in = Acolyte Width

https://imgur.com/zb0bPU6 64px = 35.97in Acolyte 605px = 340.03in World's Grave length

https://imgur.com/QV3uoAb 230px = 340.03in = 8.64m = Low End (WG Pillar) 1023px = 1512.39in = 38.42m = High End (WG Room)

Now we add the components for the formula to find the info then Energy.

• I = Information (bits)
• R = Radius (meters)
• m = Mass (2e+28 kg, 2000x earthlike planets)
• ─º = reduced Planck constant (1.054571800e-34 J/s)
• c = speed of light (299792458 m/s)
• ln = natural logarithm

So let us start with mass to info with low end: (2*pi*299792458*4.32*2e+28/1.054571800e-34log(2)) = 4.6456655e+71 bits

Now we need to calculate info to energy, which I will use the same forumla for Energy to Info, but reverse the order. 4.6456655e+71/(2*pi*4.32/1.054571800e-13*299792458log(2)) = 2e+49 joules = Solar System level

and since the World's Grave broke the Bekenstein Limit, it would likely contain more (but that is besides the point), but the Ghost would have to retrieve the information Faster than Light.

and this is low end

 

[WHYNAUT]

These feats in Destiny are beginning to become pretty consistent if that calculation is accepted.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The issue with this is that the calc is sorta based on yet another theory on what a Black Hole does and doesn't do, one that the wiki hasn't reviewed before.

also I realize now what you needed help with relating to this on kek, was this always what it was?

 

[CNBA3]

it is more on how a black hole is formed rather than what it does or doesn't do, like how black holes do form, where there is so much that can be stored in a finite space before collapsing in on itself.

yes, it was.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Again. I believe the wiki has a standard calculation for Black Hole creation, though I haven't the foggiest what it might be. I remember Kaltias used it on an Enter the Gungeon weapon for a very tiny black hole, maybe ask them?

And... nito. Glad to see it come full circle lol.

 

[CNBA3]

I will try to ask them then, also, if you are thinking what I am thinking, I am sorry, I did not mean any form of malicious deception on my part.

 

[Kaltias]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Kaltias/Gungeon_black_hole_gu

^ Use the formula here to find the mass.

AP = GBE of the Sun * Mass of the black hole / Mass of the Sun

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I will try to ask them then, also, if you are thinking what I am thinking, I am sorry, I did not mean any form of malicious deception on my part.

Nah, I didn't think you were trying to get some huge result. Was actually sorta impressed with such an unorthodox approach. No worries boyo.

 

[CNBA3]

ok, I tried that formula and I got dwarf star, but I would just like to let you know that this feat is not for Attack Potency since Ghosts do not nave offensive powers iirc, they are more of the AI assistance, like Cortana. this is just to find out how much power a Ghost has to retrieve information fro a supercomputer that broke the Bakanestein limit

 

[Wokistan]

Wait, Nito? As in the Dark Souls guy? WHere did he get a black hole calc from?

 

[Archaron]

I think this discussion has come to an end idk, so can I apply what was discussed and agreed to by majority here? I have to prepare myself to deal with the azzy about panoptes eventually.

 

[Wokistan]

What did you want applied? A summary may be nice so we can get one last look over considering how other things came up.

 

[GalaxianAegis]

That sounds good @Archaron. Are there any profiles that need to be changed besides the Guardian?

 

[Wokistan]

The two vex files are going to need their own thing, and the Hive files are fine as of now, so no.

 

[GalaxianAegis]

Well that being the case, I am working on some profiles for some characters such as Ghaul and Crota. If they need further discussion, we can do so when the time comes.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

You should get more staff input before you apply anything.

 

[GalaxianAegis]

@Sigurd Is there anyone specific that we need to contact for approval?

 

[Wokistan]

Azathoth's the only staff who knows the verse at this point, and he's remaking the Oryx revision rn along with stuff for other verses.