A lazy man and his gigantic text (Guardian Downgrade and Additions)

[Mr. Bambu]

Panoptes being 2-A is still out, but the Guardian being Low 2-C in Vex Space should be okay.

 

[CNBA3]

I do not recall Vex being able to make "backups" before, they still lose valuable vex constructs, the only thing they can do is send information to even greater vex, I mean if that were the case they would not have lost the Black Garden, Vault of Glass and the Infinity Forest. and before anyone asks, they could not save the Black Heart because it was paracausal, that is why the undying mind was needed to do it. And 2-A is still reasonable within the Vex Space as with the Templar lore, as the Vault of Glass describes multiple realities brushing against ours within the vault, it is unique in all universes, and that the Templar has the power of the Vault coarsing through it. actually, the Vex would have been destroyed entirely inside the Vault by Oryx when he sent Morphon in there to infect the entire network.

 

[Archaron]

Panoptes being 2-A is still out, but the Guardian being Low 2-C in Vex Space should be okay.

Panoptes, Atheon and Argos 2-A will continue there until proven otherwise. And like I said, they'll be Low 2-C in and out of "space vex".

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Burden of proof for such exorbitant, shall we say, claims, are not on me. Aside from simulating infinity to the point of realness, they don't have a 2-A feat. Their proposed 2-A feat is assuming that each ONE Vex in ONE timeline did ONE action across ALL timelines rather than the same Vex that exists in all timelines each did one action.

2-A is out.

And no, they get matched by Tier 4s outside of Vex Space. They aren't Low 2-C.

 

[Wokistan]

woah what happened to everyone's propic

Quria depends on whether she fought Ascendant Oryx, which I do not believe happened. Everyone else is a clear no for low 2-C outside vex domain.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Yeah profiles are being weird, Fandom is drunk again.

 

[CNBA3]

Again, it depends for vex wether with Black Heart or not

 

[Wokistan]

No, it does not. The vex never achieved their goal of being tier 2 in regular space. They were stopped from doing that before they were done. The black heart was used as part of the process, but they didn't actually become low 2-C with it there.

 

[Archaron]

I suppose a single argument to be based solely on your opinion of finding an outlier, must be something truly valid, famous Reduction ad absurdum. I believe you're wrong in that, the proposition for 2-A is that Panoptes can see and is connected to all 2-A space, and manipulate it any way you want, even beings that are not simulations are not out of it , as the guardian. Clearly a 2-A achievement within its domain and due key "inside the IF", being outside of it, the trinity of vexs networks, VoG, nessus and IF, aiming to manipulate all the time and space of the universe, for this in the inevitable future even 5D entities are destroyed.

Can you prove that atheon, panoptes and argos have already fought someone tier 4 out of space vex? why even 2-A and Low 2-C is exclusively for them.

 

[Wokistan]

Again, Panoptes does not exert 2-A power over this space on any occasion. Show me a feat of Panoptes manipulating the entire IF at once. There isn't one. You can't use the fact that sometimes the vex win in their sims to scale either. What matters is what actually happened in the real timeline.


Quria stalemated Oryx's kids, who are tier 4. Atheon and Panoptes never left their domains so they shouldn't get keys for a restriction they've never shown, but tiers 5/4 are logical.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Wok is correct.

 

[Archaron]

Properly of him there is not, but we know that daemons can control the reality in which they are, panoptes is the mind of the IF and of all the vexs there, it is logical that he exercises control over all space by being connected to him, and the daemons who are the mind of a single reality have already shown that they manipulate, just putting the pieces together is a logical basis.

 

[Wokistan]

Administrating the IF through the daemons actually means he wouldn't have that tier. Influence is not enough for tiers like that, if it was 2-A it wouldn't need to bother with all that stuff. Say I have a governmental position and I administrate a province through numerous other people. I myself am no greater than a normal person, but I have more indirect influence.

 

[Archaron]

A daemon is the local mind of a single reality, panoptes is the mind of every IF, He itself is the land of its own province, and it is natural for a leader to have subordinates.

 

[CNBA3]

Actually they did in the future they did, which is why the Stranger came back to have us stop it. Also Templar should be considered the multiversal range with the power of the vault of glass flowing through it

 

[Wokistan]

The thing is is that panoptes is not literally every daemon. A king may have his decrees carried out through a system of bureaucrats, but at the end of the day those bureaucrats are still running a lot of legwork.

 

[Wokistan]

If panoptes was 2-A, assuming Osiris scaled, The Guardian should never have been able to enter the IF in the first place without getting insta-deleted, deleting and recreating the whole sim should be a cinch, there shouldn't be any timelines for Sagira to pull you to when you almost get erased, and upon fighting a daemon Panootes should have just manifested and wrecked you. 2-A panoptes, even within the IF, is not consistent. He doesn't need to be 2-A to administrate a 2-A realm especially given it's virtual omnipresence.

 

[CNBA3]

Guardians are paracausal, he would not know who is going to be deleted nor be predicted to enter in the first place, we do not know if the vex can recreate the sims from scratch which would (for them) take a lot of effort where someone else would come in to take the Guardian's place, as for TL, there is still the Materium TL.

 

[Wokistan]

The fact that the light is difficult for the Vex to understand doesn't mean that the guardian is invisible. Someone sees guardian, relay to panoptes, that sim is deleted or quarantined or whatever (poor praeydth), bam.

 

[Archaron]

He does not have to be, he is bigger than all of them together, just like atheon and argos had their vexs even though they could command their entire network alone.

Osiris is not scaled. And again, panoptes is always changing and expanding the forest, you can not say that it simply could not have dealt with the guardian at first, how do you expect to erase a virus while still increasing the defense of your firewall? When did he first appear who do you think caused the guardian to flee? Did you forget that the guardian lives by changing realities and defeating daemons the entire campaign? And it does not make sense to limit the guardian to a timeline, being that it itself is immune to the precog and vision of the infinite probabilities of the vexs.

I have already shown that it reaches the entire IF, I have also shown that it can manipulate it all over even though I have never done it, but still, all I see are points that point to PIS.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

You never proved it was 2-A.

 

[Wokistan]

Potentially being capable of doesn't mean he did. No feats or scaling means no tier.

Osiris kinda has to scale to panoptes for anything to remotely make sense. It also makes some degree of sense as he did know more about the vex than anyone but the vex and as such him learning how to manipulate vex Sims as if he was a mind has some backing. You can also delete a virus stuck at your firewall just fine if it notifies you, so yeah. The guardian is still clearly bound by linear time when not in a sim, and if they could timeline jump at will they would have done so.

If literally everything has to be considered pis for a rating to work, they just aren't getting that rating due to clearly not being portrayed at that level of power.

 

[CNBA3]

It is not that Vex cannot see the Guardian (actually, with the opening of CoO, that maybe the case through the actual eyes of a vex), it is their inability to actually stop them despite having the ability to be prepared and Alter both past and future. While we have outside assistance, that doesn't change the point. As proven in various adventures, we can jump out of simulations that are being deleted.

Do not forget about the Templar where the vault's power flows through it where multiple realities reside in

 

[Archaron]

@Bambu For you really. You guys just point PIS and Outlier, which does not make sense.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

For you really. You guys just point PIS and Outlier, which does not make sense.

No we don't. We've given arguments at every turrn. Your saying "they are 2-A" is based on a potential thing, not the real deal.

 

[Wokistan]

It actually is their inability to properly simulate and perdict the PC in general, not that the PC is superior to the vex as a whole like Oryx was. With him, the vex couldn't understand his true nature but knew enough to be able to predict outcomes with him, and from their limited knowledge they knew that there were absolutely no futures they could similate where they'd beat him. The guardian on the other hand they just straight up cannot perdict, and Osiris explicitly states this. With that Oryx example, they decide to gamble and call out to the Guardian as a last resort. While they cannot for see anything that stops Oryx, they decide to take a gamble on something they cannot forsee as they don't have any other options. The difference here should be pretty clear. Oryx was dangerous for being far too powerful and mostly beyond the vex, while The Guardian was dangerous to being one of the very few things that are unpredictable to the vex. The PC in general seems to mess with precog, given that Callus couldn't forsee you either.

If every single showing is pis it kinda stops being pis

 

[Archaron]

So that would leave he as a "likely" since not potentially but technically he can do this.

It makes no sense to scale osiris to panoptes, if not he himself would have prevented it, what we know he can not in all terms. A firewall that is constantly updated and added to its own services, is not notified and much less has that, even more when the virus is paracausal and has already shown protection to several predictions of the same firewall.

It's not because he did not that he could not, he's logically able but he did not, leaving him as one "likely".

 

[CNBA3]

Not really, the lore does not describe just the PC guardian, it is guardians in general, remember multiple guardians went into the vault before and they all came out alright despite it's reality under vex control, even in the previous failed fireteam did not team wipe them entirely as a few managed to survive and even prepared for the next team to enter.

Oryx was paracausal as well, that is why they could not simulate him, they could only simulate him before his paracausal nature as Aurash.

Even the black heart which was already in a weak state before D1 vanilla was unable to be deduced or simulated, and the Vex because of that worhshiped it as a deity.

 

[Wokistan]

That's not really how likely works, they still need more than speculation on their capabilities.

Osiris directly opposed panoptes and opened him up to damage when you could do nothing but get deleted. What you did to the sword spaces of the Hive, usurping their command, he seems to have done to the vex. His issue was one of being predicted, not being underpowered. Also nothing should stop any vex who sees The guardian from being like "yo can you delete somulation #177013 real quick there's an issue here", predictive difficulties or not. The vex can still kill and harm what they cannot understand.

 

[Archaron]

It's not just speculation, it's things he can technically do, but he just not did it.

Osiris has some power in the IF, in addition to having help from his clones, he alone and without the modifications made before would not be able to contain it. assuming this logic then from the beginning of the series the vexs should have attacked the last city before it came to exist just like the traveler and etc, then we can assume that they only deal with a problem at the time of the problem, neither before nor after, and nor do they worry if it is not a threat to a axis mind and a sims.

 

[CNBA3]

That is not simple by just telling the rest of the Vex to do that, it would be like trying to simplify the Vex effort to defeat Oryx after Quria had told the network about him and gave them information as much as it could. Guardians can still jump to different simulations and out of the forest if need be. That does not mean the guardians would just let the vex kill them if they do not understand, despite them trying to to achieve their goals.

What Archaron said, similar to the logic why the Vex care so much about particular simulations concerning Cabal because they are either important for their ultimate goals

 

[WHYNAUT]

I agree with wok and bambu.

 

[GalaxianAegis]

This argument has been going in circles ever since the thread started. We need to reach some kind of conclusion or compromise so this matter can be settled. I (as well as other members I assume) want to make profiles for some of these characters, but I can't do anything if the ratings aren't settled.

If it's not accepted at this time, we need to just wait until an argument can be made with more/different evidence and arguments. If it is accepted, the pages stay the same and not much really changes.

On another note, why is The Guardian (Hunter) rated as Immeasurable in speed when it's accepted on other pages that navigating the Vault of Glass is Infinite. That should be changed to be consistent with the others.

 

[Wokistan]

Speed needs to just be unknown for now. That's already a topic that's to be dealt with with Oryx. I would also hold off on scaling to tier 2 as of now. Structure AP like this:

At least 5-C, likely 4-B | At least 5-C

Destiny 1 | Destiny 2

D1 can link to material Oryx, the Court of oryx, etc

D2 can scale to how Hiraks can shift an asteroid in and out of reality and the taken who would blow up a moon, and while they are overall weaker than in D1 they shouldn't be overwhelmingly so This stuff can be changed in the future, but I feel that these are the best ratings as of now.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

We have reached a conclusion. One person just isn't happy with it.

That said. Infinite would only be within realms like the Vault of Glass, not in normal time.

 

[CNBA3]

We have to remember lots of other factors which contribute to their ability to challenge other higher entities as well.

 

[Archaron]

It does not make sense to separate the guardian by keys, this is something I've shown to you before, wok. You are literally separating a character by a difference of months, with literally the same powers, only with a massive addition of equipment and deeds. I see no arguments and no cohesive reason for this. And again I have applied the guardian "likely Low 2-C", which by the way makes sense until someone is willing to debate about, which I find difficult to deny since this tier to him is the same as saying that it is PIS the whole DLC.

With the key "current", we have all the powers listed without needing to separate absolutely nothing, the AP will become more objective when joining the deeds of the two games, can be added made to list without having to separate by D1 and D2 as if made a massive difference.

 

[Wokistan]

Except they do not. Warlocks in particular lost mid godly, exotics shift, the Guardians are clearly not at their apex of power any more. If there are tier 4 feats in D2 the second key can have those, but I do not remember any.

You actually can do that, and that's already a huge point of contention for characters who even have reasoning between tier 2. Don't scale guardians there as of now.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

D2 has no feats of 4-B that we've found yet. They never fought Oryx or any of them.

That is the difference.

 

[GalaxianAegis]

@Wokistan You don't think it's possible for Ghaul with his Light powers to possibly scale to material Oryx for being one of the biggest threats faced up to that point?

@Bambu Since Low 2-C seemed to be the most reasonable secondary solution, should the Vex profiles be changed there for within Vex space? That tier seems to be supported by several other entities in the verse as well.