A lazy man and his gigantic text (Guardian Downgrade and Additions)

[CNBA3]

for Ghaul I would say he would scale to material Oryx at least, since he "By word of God " the strongest enemy the Guardians ever faced. likely stronger with Traveler powers

 

[GalaxianAegis]

I agree he's extremely powerful with the Traveler's Light. Outside of that, he's apparently physically stronger than a normal Titan class Guardian as well which is pretty impressive.

 

[Archaron]

The Guardia: Additions + AP.

AP:Varies, at least 5-C, at most 4-B (Can combat hive entities in one-against-one and to overcome them in a fair combat, entities such as Crota, Oryx, Xol, Warpriest and The Daughters of Oryx), likely Low 2-C (He can defeat oryx in his throne world there he was at his peak and managed to deny his will over himself, as well as denying the sword logic that even influenced his light, defeated crota in his oversoul throne, killing him as he did with his father permanently).

Panoptes and Atheo need two keys, one into simulated/space vex reality (which any vex can simulate in physical reality, such made as aurash and scientists) and another in physical reality, since both would eventually affect the entire universe with your plans.

AP: 2-A (Panoptes can simulate infinite realities that are always changing and expanding and within that reality everything is real and the same as the original, even from outside being smaller) | Low 2-C, likely Higher (It would change the whole universe to its image, becoming perpetual beings destroying even entities like the light and the darkness in one of these results)

My english is not perfect, if someone has noticed some error, or asks to improve the explanation, I ask them to say.

 

[Archaron]

Well that being the case, I am working on some profiles for some characters such as Ghaul and Crota. If they need further discussion, we can do so when the time comes.

Crota is mine, I'll make profile him while I get scans for the throne world blog.

 

[CNBA3]

Should add 4-C to High 4-C with fighting other Star to large star level enemies as well.

 

[GalaxianAegis]

@Archaron That's fine, I'll still do Ghaul then.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

ok, I tried that formula and I got dwarf star, but I would just like to let you know that this feat is not for Attack Potency since Ghosts do not nave offensive powers iirc, they are more of the AI assistance, like Cortana. this is just to find out how much power a Ghost has to retrieve information fro a supercomputer that broke the Bakanestein limit

I know what Ghosts are lol. I've played the second game.

Dwarf Star for Ghost dura seems good. Also, @Wok, was just using Nito as a play on the word "Neato".


As for Archaron, no. 2-A is something I cannot agree to. Low 2-C within Vex Reality should be good. Outside of Vex Reality, Vex consistently clash with Tier 4 beings. They should be Tier 4.

 

[Archaron]

@Bambu This tier will only be scaled to atheon, panoptes and argos. I think I've already shown why panoptes is 2-A, it itself is the forest mind, and can simulate and create infinite realities within it and simulates them in reality as vexs did with scientists and aurash. And the other two are only scaled because it has a connection with the IF, otherwise I would not consider them, as aegis said all other (axis minds) will be tier 4.

 

[Wokistan]

Vex I'll deal with later, but high 5-A ghosts is weird if we don't upscale guardians, which I don't think we can do as everything else is either 5-C or tier 4. There's a guardian who goes around killing ghosts because he thinks the dead should rest, so he'd have to be High 5-A, The Rifleman would have to be High 5-A, and Felwinter's shotgun would have to be High 5-A for destroying a Ghost when Felwinter killed a warlord Risen. would explain the absurd range that thing had tho

 

[Mr. Bambu]

"Bambu-chan" kek. That's a new one.

As for that. I remain entirely and wholly unconvinced. However, if you like, provide all evidence in one message and I'll review it. But for now I am far from believing in 2-A and Low 2-C outside their realms when they consistently only battle Tier 4.

 

[Archaron]

Did you not read this text that owns scans? I have already explained why the proper minds of IF, VoG and Nessus are scaled one to other.

 

[CNBA3]

But we must remember that the Guardians enemies are or should be around 4-C to 4-C for elite enemies just like with the Court of Oryx with both guardian and Court member have AP that makes us Star Level at least. With Nova Bomb and destroying the Gift Mast

And I am still inclined to believe that the standard black hole calc is usable here for a Ghost's dura, I made the Bekenstein calc for a ghost's processing power, though a Ghost show at least have FTL reaction from processing information from the World's Grave.

I have to go soon as I am about to fly.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

1. Infinite realities likely refers to the fact that Vex can see multiple realities. This is unlikely one vex doing one action, more like the same vex within every reality doing this actio. It is almost certainly not 2-A, especially since 2-A would be an insanely absurd outlier. This seeing multiple timelines thing is best shown by the Vex being able to see no feasible future in which they defeat Oryx.

2. Creating an infinite space is not, in fact, Low 2-C. It is 3-A. Low 2-C requires that you go above and beyond and generate time within that space.

3. A realistic illusion is not real. Even if it seems real, that does not make it actually real. This is much like real-world supercomputers that can generate simulations of real events, just taken up to 11 and given the ability to visually simulate them.

Tl;DR little you say has convinced me. Within Vex Space? Maybe Low 2-C. I could see an argument for it. But outside? No.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Additionally, we seem to be ignoring the fact that Vex have a tendency to commit the changes they do over long periods of time, meaning they are incredibly unlikely able to have Low 2-C potency available in an instant.

 

[Wokistan]

Outside they are definitely not tier 2. Them being tier 2 inside makes sense but it depends on whether we consider vex space feats ok. I'd agree with allowing vex space feats and treating that and ascendant realm stuff like we treat keys for "in the warp" and such.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I can agree to that since those spaces clearly function based on different laws than our own. I can agree to Low 2-C, and whatever tiers we choose for main universe Destiny.

 

[CNBA3]

Before I take off, I would have to say they are only tier 2 outside if they have the Black Heart to take their powers outside those realms. Just a worthy note.

And for those simulations, they are considered real in being depicted in what was called reality, on touch, taste, passing lifetimes and even can be killed in those simulations.

 

[Archaron]

@Bambu

1. This "likely" does not make sense, the Osiris himself refutes this. I honestly see no reason to be outlier, I have already shown a viable context and the verse itself makes explicit how vexs work with it. Oryx? please, they in the inevitable future destroyed the darkness (deep) and the light (sky), and also among infinite realities that are always expanding and changing, does not make sense for IF and plan as "multiples timelines".

2. Infinite Space, what?

3. Illusion? I would not put it that way, in fact, there is no reason to even conside that form it. The vexs simulate so well that the simulations themselves ask themselves whether they are real or not. He simulated and designed Aurash in the same way it was before. The simulations go through a process of understanding before, so it is a copy of the actual, does not make sense as something naturally false. And I also showed that within the simulation even the guardian who was not one, obtained a negative status of panoptes simulation.

Seriously, other than the fact that you think it's outlier and that it's just illusions or a simple computer simulation, is there another reason?

 

[Archaron]

Before I take off, I would have to say they are only tier 2 outside if they have the Black Heart to take their powers outside those realms. Just a worthy note.

And for those simulations, they are considered real in being depicted in what was called reality, on touch, taste, passing lifetimes and even can be killed in those simulations.

Black Heart? Ah! speaks of that giant monster in the black garden. He it itself is a personification of darkness, but obviously with the power of darkness if used in its own way, can be as powerful as oryx since it also took power from the same entity but not controlled by it.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

1. ...an outlier is when one feat is absurdly above anything else within the verse. 2-A is infinitely superior to the next highest feats of the verse. And what you say here hasn't negated my point that they can see multiple timelines and it is very unlikely that ONE Vex was doing this.

2. Yes. A spatially infinite place is 3-A for creating it. Universe level.

3. CNBA3 addressed this. So moving on.

 

[Archaron]

1. I know what an outlier is, you do not have to say. The axis minds have a context that applies only to them, and explains why it is a only scalable feat for the trinity and also, we know that there are still two entities and their heralds that can combat them and yet are not scaled to them. A one normal vex can not do this, at least not without a network to connect and do, and network leaders are the axis minds.

2. Okay... but the vexs have the function to dominate all of time and for this there are networks for such, as the skolas already used to bring through their teammates.

 

[Wokistan]

The IF being a 2-A space actually isn't an outlier, as it's not really contradictory to anything and they're clearly not like that in realspace. Thing is, panoptes didn't exert 2-A power over it.

 

[Archaron]

I've already talked about it... Panoptes is the mind of the IF he exercises yes power over it, and even the guardian who is not a simulation gets caught by it.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

I'm sorry but 5-A Ghost Shells are nonsense.

 

[CNBA3]

Actually after a correction it is large star for processing power

 

[WHYNAUT]

I've already talked about it... Panoptes is the mind of the IF he exercises yes power over it, and even the guardian who is not a simulation gets caught by it.

Panoptes is however never shown or stated of being capable of exercising power over the entire IF. If he could than the guardian and Osiris never would've stood a chance.

 

[CNBA3]

They did however, well at least Osiris did

 

[WHYNAUT]

He didn't say Panoptes could control the entire IF at once IIRC. Even if he did, the rest of the story contradicts it. I do agree on Panoptes having 2-A range, but I doubt he is 2-A.

 

[CNBA3]

Actually he did, he said that Panoptes uses the Infinite Forest, shaping it for the vex's efforts to shap the materium, I would not say that it was contradictory for Osiris's part at least, even with the Templar from the VOG, where it was described to be brushed off against multiple realities and that the vault flows through it

 

[Archaron]

@WHYNAUT

But who said that the guardian and the osiris had any chance? In the first osiris he saved him, in the second sagira he was arrested and he expelled from the IF, in the fight against panoptes, it was naturally Osiris holding panoptes and the guardian leaving him vulnerable. Panoptes is always expanding and changing the IF and checking everything and moderating, he is not omniscient in the IF, but he is the whole mind of it, he naturally exerts power over, and yes he has a stated about, but only because he has never demonstrated, does not want say that it does not have, for that I showed an applicable and usable logic.

 

[WHYNAUT]

I meant that if Panoptes is actually 2-A, he could've deleted the guardian and Osiris from the entirety of the IF instead of first searching for them. Unless this too is PIS.

 

[CNBA3]

Remember that the guardians are paracausal, which means they like Oryx cannot be predicted or simulated by the Vex. That is why Panoptes had to search for them, though they could delete the entire forest, though that would mean deleting all their work for the convergence. Also though they can predict an attack such as the Guardian going to the past, they cannot predict the means of stopping the guardian himself.

 

[WHYNAUT]

That's a good point, but couldn't Panoptes do an AOE delete specifically for guardians or something?

 

[CNBA3]

I do not believe he can, it's kinda like using word finder in a massive document trying to find specific words that you don't want but all you get are either error messages or nothing found. You know the word is there but your system just can't find it.

 

[Archaron]

I meant that if Panoptes is actually 2-A, he could've deleted the guardian and Osiris from the entirety of the IF instead of first searching for them. Unless this too is PIS.

You ignored the fact that he was not omniscient in IF, and the guardian was also constantly changing of realities, just as osiris modified the IF system, and it does not make sense to be PIS has a logic and a context to consider it. He is changing and always expanding the IF, so it can not be said that his mind was elsewhere.

 

[WHYNAUT]

I'm sorry I forgot how much Osiris had contributed to the guardian not getting erased. Maybe I'm wrong but I think you need to look at the IF as a garden. The gardener grows all of it and is constantly expanding and changing his garden. The gardener is in control of his garden but he isn't aware of everything that happens inside of it and he can't change it all at once.

 

[CNBA3]

Will be back to talk about this

 

[Wokistan]

Save a backup>delete forest>undo that but leave guardian deleted>profit


2-A Panoptes would be able to do that, precog or not.

 

[Archaron]

So I guess now, FINALLY, can I apply the revisions?

 

[WHYNAUT]

It seems everyone agrees about the changes to the Guardian so I think you can add those.