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Previously: My first thread on I/O that was accepted and applied focused on nuking “Majestic Presence” you’ll find that here, This thread will be an attempt to justify the I/O tier 1 stuff as it currently sucks. So yuh
Hierarchies and the Overall cosmology
Now if you watch that scene I understand there might be one pretty big concern with it. Why is the hiearchy in that visual shown through television-like objects, if the hierarchy is based off of dreams ? Simple, that is a reference to the very first part of this thread, The relationship between cyberspace->real-space, higher worlds and beings from higher worlds tend to perceive lower worlds as video-games, while they are in actuality, dreams. and when the characters learn more about the physiology of their verse, they begin to identify that dreams are what act as cyberspace, also again in this scene here. If that’s not convincing you then the series straight up denies the lower worlds ACTUALLY being computerized worlds and actually being dream constructs. Furthermore I understand that, dreams are not the most solid way to prove the insignificance required for a r->f because something appearing within a dream doesn’t always indicate transcendence, (like say Dream of the endless in DC who manifests from dreams of humans but isn’t fictional to the humans) well that isn’t the case here as when descending through dreams they state that they are coming from a higher world. Next the hierarchy being infinite is mostly already been established there is of course these notorious statements, I’m gonna just link the verse page since it’s posted on there just scroll down a little bit, but it is also stated by Mutsuki that the hierarchy is infinite who is probably the most knowledgeable on the verse. Now if you read that scan it says the infinite layers were within “the child’s dream” child in this context is Marduk.
Next; I wanted to note, when characters were shown to be descending through the hierarchy it wasn’t their actual selves that were descending. Technically they are still just trapped within the enigma devices, so what is the recession showing? Basically each character has a avatar above and below them.Remember how the “higher” Mutsuki is always dreaming the world directly “below” her. Well since the hierarchy is infinite, there are essentially infinite Mutsuki’s. One for each layer, but this concept isn’t something that’s restricted to Mutsuki since each layer looks visibly the same, it applies to the entire cast (Scan 1) (Scan 2) what does this mean in terms of scaling ? Well The characters, would have a key for every single dimensionality between infinite (lower dimensional) layers into 11-C all the way to high-1B obv we can’t make infinite keys for a character so to FINALLY get to the point I propose we identify the characters “in the hierarchy” key as varies from 11-C to 1B
Mutsuki and Sakuya: Godesses of Cyberspace
Currently the scaling for Sakuya's and Mutsuki's "True forms" for lack of a better word are rated at unknown via scaling above the rest of the characters to an unknown degree, well I think they should just be the same tiers as the other characters. these key’s for them are already incredibly vague to begin with, but the current justification is just completely not true: "The difference between Sakuya and Marduk is like between Marduk and an ordinary human". There is nothing in the verse that implies this whatsoever, so what is there actual standing in the cosmology? let’s take a look at some statements: Hinata compares their existences to being on the opposite side of a mirror which would be weird if they are supposed to be so much above everyone else and also that they are also compared to {HE} in terms of power. Sadly that is all the context we get on Sakuya/Mutsuki “true form” nature but basically what I’m saying is that, while Sakuya and Mutsuki are undeniably above the rest of the cast, similar to {HE}, it is definitely not in a way that would be considered ontological/higher into tier 1 or something like that.
TLDR
Baseline layer is 2-A
Characters that scale to the moon become high-1B(they’re called IC’s)
Goddesses of Cyberspace become high-1B
-“Inside the hiearchy” keys for everyone will become "varies from 11-C to 1-B"
I’m gonna re-do the character summaries, add quotes , try to get images rendered and that sorta stuff. Then the only thing left after that will be be powers/abilities section which I’ll hopefully get around to one day.
Thread is pretty long so there’s a chance that I missed something or unintentionally messed up on something. Otherwise that is all.
Agree: @Ultima_Reality @QuasiYuri @Antvasima @KingPin0422 (somewhat agrees with low-1A) @Delta333 @Darksmash @Rabbit2002 @AKUTO123 @Setsuna_tenma @Pain_to12
Disagree: @deonment
Nuetral:
Hierarchies and the Overall cosmology
Cyber-Space and Real-Space
In the earlier parts of the novel, the format of I/O's cosmology, at first, appears to be 2 separate worlds, these being "real-space" and Babylon/Cyberspace where Babylon, to people in real-space is a virtualized video game, where people from realspace can only access Babylon via avatars called shadows.Throughout the series, a reality -> fiction transcendence is established between Cyberspace and Real-space; scan 1, scan 2, in the first scan it states that in the perspective of beings of real-space, cyberspace can be defined as a "make-believe existence" which is likened to viewing things as fictional. This is also consistent with the mechanics of the verse given that the shadows(avatars) are referred to as “characters”, so yea Ik this is not pretty solid on its own but I’ll expand more on this later, for now let’s move on, as the series progresses, we are shown that even real-space, is in of itself, just a fragment of a multilayer world. Following this line of thought it is then portrayed that similarly to how Cyberspace is fictional to Real-space, it is implied that there is a higher world above real space which views it as fictional as well; like when Ishtar highlighted that to her an, IC, reality appears as though it is being played out on a screen with her just as a audience member, and when it’s stated that reality was a story being created by a “designer” (though I’ll admit this was in question format, and not statement)The Beauty of Context
Now the above again would not mean much by itself, yes ik, a few random scans taken like this could very much just be hyperbole and whatnot , but, the above was included in this because the references to cyberspace and real-space will come in play later in this thread, for now let’s expand more on the nature of the overarching cosmology, to understand the arguments after this point, knowledge on the context is required. So I'll have to quickly summarize some story based stuff. Please read this part if you plan on commenting; So essentially the whole plot of the route is to try and save this girl named Mutsuki who is sleeping (while confined) in a device called Enigma, Enigma is a device that compresses information into dreams. Hinata, {HE}, Mayumi, and Ishtar attempt to rescue Mutsuki from her confinement within Enigma, however after ariving at the Enigma to do so, they realize that to unlock enigma and save Mitsuki they need to input 10 passcodes, so with hacking and stuff they find 9 of those passwords but are still missing the last one. Now how do they obtain the last passcode? They decide that they’ll have to ask mutsuki herself, but she's sleeping so they can't talk to her directly. Instead they decide to enter her dreams to try to get her to give them the password. How do they do this you may ask ? With other enigma’sThe Actual Scaling
Now with the context out of the way let's take a crack at the actual scaling. Once Ishatar and {HE} enter Mutsuki’s dreams, they find themselves in an identical world as they previously were in, as in a literal replica of the “real” world they came from, like the visible scenery appears the exact same. Within this identical dream world there is another Mutsuki sleeping in another enigma. But wait, if they are inside of mutsuki’s dreams how is Mutsuki in her own dream ? Well because it’s a different mutsuki from the world which the other characters came from (Scan 1) (Scan 2). This Mutsuki, is the Mutsuki inside the dreams, So basically when they enter Mutsuki’s dream to get the passcode for enigma they Instead find a replica of their world, so what do they do? they do the same thing again and enter the dream of the Mutsuki that is herself in the original dream. To yet again find another world visibly identical to the original, with yet another Mutsuki within it, so again they repeat the process, enter this Mutsuki’s dream to find another identical world etc, etc etc they continue this process for a “eternity” till they’ve basically forgot what the actual beginning is, and this is the foundation of the hierarchy in the verse: SCANS FOR THE ABOVE: (Scan 1 Scan 2) though they are shown to have been descending through the hierarchy, there are higher layers as well given these statements: (Scan 1 Scan 2) to further portray this we are actually given a visual representation of the hierarchy which you can see at (Time-stamp): 38:43 video link: .Now if you watch that scene I understand there might be one pretty big concern with it. Why is the hiearchy in that visual shown through television-like objects, if the hierarchy is based off of dreams ? Simple, that is a reference to the very first part of this thread, The relationship between cyberspace->real-space, higher worlds and beings from higher worlds tend to perceive lower worlds as video-games, while they are in actuality, dreams. and when the characters learn more about the physiology of their verse, they begin to identify that dreams are what act as cyberspace, also again in this scene here. If that’s not convincing you then the series straight up denies the lower worlds ACTUALLY being computerized worlds and actually being dream constructs. Furthermore I understand that, dreams are not the most solid way to prove the insignificance required for a r->f because something appearing within a dream doesn’t always indicate transcendence, (like say Dream of the endless in DC who manifests from dreams of humans but isn’t fictional to the humans) well that isn’t the case here as when descending through dreams they state that they are coming from a higher world. Next the hierarchy being infinite is mostly already been established there is of course these notorious statements, I’m gonna just link the verse page since it’s posted on there just scroll down a little bit, but it is also stated by Mutsuki that the hierarchy is infinite who is probably the most knowledgeable on the verse. Now if you read that scan it says the infinite layers were within “the child’s dream” child in this context is Marduk.
Next; I wanted to note, when characters were shown to be descending through the hierarchy it wasn’t their actual selves that were descending. Technically they are still just trapped within the enigma devices, so what is the recession showing? Basically each character has a avatar above and below them.Remember how the “higher” Mutsuki is always dreaming the world directly “below” her. Well since the hierarchy is infinite, there are essentially infinite Mutsuki’s. One for each layer, but this concept isn’t something that’s restricted to Mutsuki since each layer looks visibly the same, it applies to the entire cast (Scan 1) (Scan 2) what does this mean in terms of scaling ? Well The characters, would have a key for every single dimensionality between infinite (lower dimensional) layers into 11-C all the way to high-1B obv we can’t make infinite keys for a character so to FINALLY get to the point I propose we identify the characters “in the hierarchy” key as varies from 11-C to 1B
Why there is no second hierarchy
This is not implemented on profiles currently, but I see people on and off-site talking about there being 2 hierarchies and stuff, these being “Marduk’s hierarchy” and the other being “Mutsuki’s hierarchy” The problem is though, these 2 things are the exact same thing. The format is like this 1. Marduk is dreaming the entire infinite hierarchy, 2. Between each layer of the hierarchy the infinite Mutsuki’s are dreaming the world directly below them. So yes the “Marduk hierarchy” and “Mutsuki hierarchy” thing are talking about the same thing, just simply 2 different perspectives. This is the most logical conclusion as it is always stated that Marduk is dreaming the entirehierarchy and that Mutsuki is dreaming the world directly below her.The Moon
So the currently accepted 1-A construct in the verse is the Moon which is stated on profiles to be above any overarching hierarchy in the verse, for a refresher here is the proof we currently use for the difference between the hierarchy and the moon. Obv this isn’t nearly enough to warrant the jump from high-1B to 1-A nowadays. So what is the relationship between the moon and the hierarchy? Well it’s really vague, but it is stated that the moon is the Birthplace of all dreams by Mutsuki who again is probably the most knowledgeable on the topic, and it is also stated that the distance between the “baseline layer” (where most of the story takes place) and the moon is ad-infinitum, but basically I don’t really think it should qualify for 1-A at all tbh. So first and foremost Marduk does not transcend the Moon, in fact he is shown to exist on it. It is from here that the rest of the verse is within his dream, and in the end of the series the entire cast manifests here. My #1 concern on Marduk and by extension the moon being 1-A is that, the rest of the the transcendences in the verse (the whole Mutsuki thing) are BOTH focused on dreams, there is no direct proof that Marduk/Moon is completely external to Mutsuki’s dream, in fact the opposite is what’s stated, it’s actually stated that Mutsuki’s dreams and Marduk are connected , it would be safer to conclude that the moon is an extension to the infinity of the hierarchy (which works out since the wiki treats infinity as sets) and let me just send this again, the way the characters access the moon just in of itself seems to simple to denote complete external transcendence imo. So ye while the moon is higher then the hierarchy I can’t really conclude that it satisfies the requirements for the jump from high-1B to 1-A, therefore I am proposing a downgrade from 1-A to high-1B for the moon.Size of the baseline layer.
Oh yea so no one scales to the baseline layer, but it’s important since every layer is the exact same but yea the size of the baseline layer of the hierarchy should be fairly blatant and straightforward a 2-A , via the use of the Many-Worlds interpretation. This is first implied when it’s noted the verse contains infinite possibilities. yes this by itself means basically nothing, but it becomes pretty self-evident when it’s explained further towards the end of the route: scan 1 scan 2 scan 3 so yea again no much to say on this.Mutsuki and Sakuya: Godesses of Cyberspace
Currently the scaling for Sakuya's and Mutsuki's "True forms" for lack of a better word are rated at unknown via scaling above the rest of the characters to an unknown degree, well I think they should just be the same tiers as the other characters. these key’s for them are already incredibly vague to begin with, but the current justification is just completely not true: "The difference between Sakuya and Marduk is like between Marduk and an ordinary human". There is nothing in the verse that implies this whatsoever, so what is there actual standing in the cosmology? let’s take a look at some statements: Hinata compares their existences to being on the opposite side of a mirror which would be weird if they are supposed to be so much above everyone else and also that they are also compared to {HE} in terms of power. Sadly that is all the context we get on Sakuya/Mutsuki “true form” nature but basically what I’m saying is that, while Sakuya and Mutsuki are undeniably above the rest of the cast, similar to {HE}, it is definitely not in a way that would be considered ontological/higher into tier 1 or something like that.
TLDR
Baseline layer is 2-A
Characters that scale to the moon become high-1B(they’re called IC’s)
Goddesses of Cyberspace become high-1B
-“Inside the hiearchy” keys for everyone will become "varies from 11-C to 1-B"
I’m gonna re-do the character summaries, add quotes , try to get images rendered and that sorta stuff. Then the only thing left after that will be be powers/abilities section which I’ll hopefully get around to one day.
Thread is pretty long so there’s a chance that I missed something or unintentionally messed up on something. Otherwise that is all.
Agree: @Ultima_Reality @QuasiYuri @Antvasima @KingPin0422 (somewhat agrees with low-1A) @Delta333 @Darksmash @Rabbit2002 @AKUTO123 @Setsuna_tenma @Pain_to12
Disagree: @deonment
Nuetral:
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