A I/O crt on the tier 1 stuff

[Catzlaflame]

Previously: My first thread on I/O that was accepted and applied focused on nuking “Majestic Presence” you’ll find that here, This thread will be an attempt to justify the I/O tier 1 stuff as it currently sucks. So yuh

Hierarchies and the Overall cosmology

Cyber-Space and Real-Space​

In the earlier parts of the novel, the format of I/O's cosmology, at first, appears to be 2 separate worlds, these being "real-space" and Babylon/Cyberspace where Babylon, to people in real-space is a virtualized video game, where people from realspace can only access Babylon via avatars called shadows.Throughout the series, a reality -> fiction transcendence is established between Cyberspace and Real-space; scan 1, scan 2, in the first scan it states that in the perspective of beings of real-space, cyberspace can be defined as a "make-believe existence" which is likened to viewing things as fictional. This is also consistent with the mechanics of the verse given that the shadows(avatars) are referred to as “characters”, so yea Ik this is not pretty solid on its own but I’ll expand more on this later, for now let’s move on, as the series progresses, we are shown that even real-space, is in of itself, just a fragment of a multilayer world. Following this line of thought it is then portrayed that similarly to how Cyberspace is fictional to Real-space, it is implied that there is a higher world above real space which views it as fictional as well; like when Ishtar highlighted that to her an, IC, reality appears as though it is being played out on a screen with her just as a audience member, and when it’s stated that reality was a story being created by a “designer” (though I’ll admit this was in question format, and not statement)

The Beauty of Context​

Now the above again would not mean much by itself, yes ik, a few random scans taken like this could very much just be hyperbole and whatnot , but, the above was included in this because the references to cyberspace and real-space will come in play later in this thread, for now let’s expand more on the nature of the overarching cosmology, to understand the arguments after this point, knowledge on the context is required. So I'll have to quickly summarize some story based stuff. Please read this part if you plan on commenting; So essentially the whole plot of the route is to try and save this girl named Mutsuki who is sleeping (while confined) in a device called Enigma, Enigma is a device that compresses information into dreams. Hinata, {HE}, Mayumi, and Ishtar attempt to rescue Mutsuki from her confinement within Enigma, however after ariving at the Enigma to do so, they realize that to unlock enigma and save Mitsuki they need to input 10 passcodes, so with hacking and stuff they find 9 of those passwords but are still missing the last one. Now how do they obtain the last passcode? They decide that they’ll have to ask mutsuki herself, but she's sleeping so they can't talk to her directly. Instead they decide to enter her dreams to try to get her to give them the password. How do they do this you may ask ? With other enigma’s

The Actual Scaling​

Now with the context out of the way let's take a crack at the actual scaling. Once Ishatar and {HE} enter Mutsuki’s dreams, they find themselves in an identical world as they previously were in, as in a literal replica of the “real” world they came from, like the visible scenery appears the exact same. Within this identical dream world there is another Mutsuki sleeping in another enigma. But wait, if they are inside of mutsuki’s dreams how is Mutsuki in her own dream ? Well because it’s a different mutsuki from the world which the other characters came from (Scan 1) (Scan 2). This Mutsuki, is the Mutsuki inside the dreams, So basically when they enter Mutsuki’s dream to get the passcode for enigma they Instead find a replica of their world, so what do they do? they do the same thing again and enter the dream of the Mutsuki that is herself in the original dream. To yet again find another world visibly identical to the original, with yet another Mutsuki within it, so again they repeat the process, enter this Mutsuki’s dream to find another identical world etc, etc etc they continue this process for a “eternity” till they’ve basically forgot what the actual beginning is, and this is the foundation of the hierarchy in the verse: SCANS FOR THE ABOVE: (Scan 1 Scan 2) though they are shown to have been descending through the hierarchy, there are higher layers as well given these statements: (Scan 1 Scan 2) to further portray this we are actually given a visual representation of the hierarchy which you can see at (Time-stamp): 38:43 video link: .

Now if you watch that scene I understand there might be one pretty big concern with it. Why is the hiearchy in that visual shown through television-like objects, if the hierarchy is based off of dreams ? Simple, that is a reference to the very first part of this thread, The relationship between cyberspace->real-space, higher worlds and beings from higher worlds tend to perceive lower worlds as video-games, while they are in actuality, dreams. and when the characters learn more about the physiology of their verse, they begin to identify that dreams are what act as cyberspace, also again in this scene here. If that’s not convincing you then the series straight up denies the lower worlds ACTUALLY being computerized worlds and actually being dream constructs. Furthermore I understand that, dreams are not the most solid way to prove the insignificance required for a r->f because something appearing within a dream doesn’t always indicate transcendence, (like say Dream of the endless in DC who manifests from dreams of humans but isn’t fictional to the humans) well that isn’t the case here as when descending through dreams they state that they are coming from a higher world. Next the hierarchy being infinite is mostly already been established there is of course these notorious statements, I’m gonna just link the verse page since it’s posted on there just scroll down a little bit, but it is also stated by Mutsuki that the hierarchy is infinite who is probably the most knowledgeable on the verse. Now if you read that scan it says the infinite layers were within “the child’s dream” child in this context is Marduk.

Next; I wanted to note, when characters were shown to be descending through the hierarchy it wasn’t their actual selves that were descending. Technically they are still just trapped within the enigma devices, so what is the recession showing? Basically each character has a avatar above and below them.Remember how the “higher” Mutsuki is always dreaming the world directly “below” her. Well since the hierarchy is infinite, there are essentially infinite Mutsuki’s. One for each layer, but this concept isn’t something that’s restricted to Mutsuki since each layer looks visibly the same, it applies to the entire cast (Scan 1) (Scan 2) what does this mean in terms of scaling ? Well The characters, would have a key for every single dimensionality between infinite (lower dimensional) layers into 11-C all the way to high-1B obv we can’t make infinite keys for a character so to FINALLY get to the point I propose we identify the characters “in the hierarchy” key as varies from 11-C to 1B

Why there is no second hierarchy​

This is not implemented on profiles currently, but I see people on and off-site talking about there being 2 hierarchies and stuff, these being “Marduk’s hierarchy” and the other being “Mutsuki’s hierarchy” The problem is though, these 2 things are the exact same thing. The format is like this 1. Marduk is dreaming the entire infinite hierarchy, 2. Between each layer of the hierarchy the infinite Mutsuki’s are dreaming the world directly below them. So yes the “Marduk hierarchy” and “Mutsuki hierarchy” thing are talking about the same thing, just simply 2 different perspectives. This is the most logical conclusion as it is always stated that Marduk is dreaming the entirehierarchy and that Mutsuki is dreaming the world directly below her.

The Moon​

So the currently accepted 1-A construct in the verse is the Moon which is stated on profiles to be above any overarching hierarchy in the verse, for a refresher here is the proof we currently use for the difference between the hierarchy and the moon. Obv this isn’t nearly enough to warrant the jump from high-1B to 1-A nowadays. So what is the relationship between the moon and the hierarchy? Well it’s really vague, but it is stated that the moon is the Birthplace of all dreams by Mutsuki who again is probably the most knowledgeable on the topic, and it is also stated that the distance between the “baseline layer” (where most of the story takes place) and the moon is ad-infinitum, but basically I don’t really think it should qualify for 1-A at all tbh. So first and foremost Marduk does not transcend the Moon, in fact he is shown to exist on it. It is from here that the rest of the verse is within his dream, and in the end of the series the entire cast manifests here. My #1 concern on Marduk and by extension the moon being 1-A is that, the rest of the the transcendences in the verse (the whole Mutsuki thing) are BOTH focused on dreams, there is no direct proof that Marduk/Moon is completely external to Mutsuki’s dream, in fact the opposite is what’s stated, it’s actually stated that Mutsuki’s dreams and Marduk are connected , it would be safer to conclude that the moon is an extension to the infinity of the hierarchy (which works out since the wiki treats infinity as sets) and let me just send this again, the way the characters access the moon just in of itself seems to simple to denote complete external transcendence imo. So ye while the moon is higher then the hierarchy I can’t really conclude that it satisfies the requirements for the jump from high-1B to 1-A, therefore I am proposing a downgrade from 1-A to high-1B for the moon.

Size of the baseline layer.​

Oh yea so no one scales to the baseline layer, but it’s important since every layer is the exact same but yea the size of the baseline layer of the hierarchy should be fairly blatant and straightforward a 2-A , via the use of the Many-Worlds interpretation. This is first implied when it’s noted the verse contains infinite possibilities. yes this by itself means basically nothing, but it becomes pretty self-evident when it’s explained further towards the end of the route: scan 1 scan 2 scan 3 so yea again no much to say on this.

Mutsuki and Sakuya: Godesses of Cyberspace

Currently the scaling for Sakuya's and Mutsuki's "True forms" for lack of a better word are rated at unknown via scaling above the rest of the characters to an unknown degree, well I think they should just be the same tiers as the other characters. these key’s for them are already incredibly vague to begin with, but the current justification is just completely not true: "The difference between Sakuya and Marduk is like between Marduk and an ordinary human". There is nothing in the verse that implies this whatsoever, so what is there actual standing in the cosmology? let’s take a look at some statements: Hinata compares their existences to being on the opposite side of a mirror which would be weird if they are supposed to be so much above everyone else and also that they are also compared to {HE} in terms of power. Sadly that is all the context we get on Sakuya/Mutsuki “true form” nature but basically what I’m saying is that, while Sakuya and Mutsuki are undeniably above the rest of the cast, similar to {HE}, it is definitely not in a way that would be considered ontological/higher into tier 1 or something like that.

TLDR

Baseline layer is 2-A

Characters that scale to the moon become high-1B(they’re called IC’s)

Goddesses of Cyberspace become high-1B

-“Inside the hiearchy” keys for everyone will become "varies from 11-C to 1-B"

I’m gonna re-do the character summaries, add quotes , try to get images rendered and that sorta stuff. Then the only thing left after that will be be powers/abilities section which I’ll hopefully get around to one day.

Thread is pretty long so there’s a chance that I missed something or unintentionally messed up on something. Otherwise that is all.

Agree: @Ultima_Reality @QuasiYuri @Antvasima @KingPin0422 (somewhat agrees with low-1A) @Delta333 @Darksmash @Rabbit2002 @AKUTO123 @Setsuna_tenma @Pain_to12

Disagree: @deonment

Nuetral:

 

[KingPin0422]

Well it’s really vague, but it is stated that the moon is the Birthplace of all dreams by Mutsuki who again is probably the most knowledgeable on the topic, and it is also stated that the distance between the “baseline layer” (where most of the story takes place) and the moon is ad-infinitum, but basically I don’t really think it should qualify for 1-A at all tbh.

You used the same scan twice here, which seems to be a mistake because it doesn't say anything about the "distance" between the base layer and the Moon.

That aside, I'm inclined to agree with everything presented here. The only point of contention I could raise is that since Marduk is dreaming the entirety of the hierarchy, and since the Moon is stated to have no time or space, then Low 1-A may be on the table. On the other hand, the layers within the hierarchy are also based on lower worlds being the dreams of higher worlds, so Marduk's thing could fall under the clause that simply adding a layer on top of a High 1-B hierarchy is not enough to qualify for Low 1-A. I'll have to think about it.

 

[QuasiYuri]

As I said on discord, my only problem would be having a scan confirming that the real world is part of the hierarchy, instead of the entire hierarchy just being below it.

I'm fine with everything otherwise.

 

[Catzlaflame]

You used the same scan twice here, which seems to be a mistake because it doesn't say anything about the "distance" between the base layer and the Moon.

Yea that’s my bad; here is what I was talking about,

That aside, I'm inclined to agree with everything presented here. The only point of contention I could raise is that since Marduk is dreaming the entirety of the hierarchy, and since the Moon is stated to have no time or space, then Low 1-A may be on the table. On the other hand, the layers within the hierarchy are also based on lower worlds being the dreams of higher worlds, so Marduk's thing could fall under the clause that simply adding a layer on top of a High 1-B hierarchy is not enough to qualify for Low 1-A. I'll have to think about it.

ye that’s why I refrained from arguing for low-1-A as well. However if more people see low-1A I’m fine with that.

 

[Catzlaflame]

Wait F me. There was another wrong scan damn this is starting to get annoying Gyazo can’t add links properly if it’s life depended on it.

.

This might affect your decision a little bit The part where I said: in fact the opposite is what’s stated, it’s actually stated that Mutsuki’s dreams and Marduk are connected

I meant to send this scan; here

 

[KingPin0422]

Thanks. However, I'd like to mention this set of scans where it's stated that at the level of the Moon, space and time are meaningless, and that everything everyone has experienced over the course of the narrative is just different possibilities that can be replaced. I'll also throw this in for good measure.

 

[Tarang123]

Thanks. However, I'd like to mention this set of scans where it's stated that at the level of the Moon, space and time are meaningless, and that everything everyone has experienced over the course of the narrative is just different possibilities that can be replaced. I'll also throw this in for good measure.

Not sure if any of this is enough for a 1A rating.

On an quick viewing of this CRT, I’m overall fine with most of this stuff

 

[KingPin0422]

Not sure if any of this is enough for a 1A rating.

On an quick viewing of this CRT, I’m overall fine with most of this stuff

Oh no, I wasn't specifically pushing for 1-A. I just think that it probably should be higher than just High 1-B.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

the moon stuff could be Low 1A, agree with the others

 

[deonment]

Not sure if any of this is enough for a 1A rating.

On an quick viewing of this CRT, I’m overall fine with most of this stuff

it should be given
1)The moon exists above and outside the totality of the tower
2)It lacks the concepts of space and time, having no such thing as past present, or future, no here, there or anywhere
3)It sees the entire tower as equal possibilities, even when the characters are high 1-B or 10-B they are all just still equal and disposable and replaceable possibilties
4)the tower as a whole still abides by space and time
5)Nobody transcends the moon at all bar maybe the, wait the Majectic presence was deleted? and Iap wasn't even pinged
6)Marduk is not even on the moon, we directly see them in the tower + the better Marduk, that being ashur, was made within the tower, it makes no sense for Marduk to both me in the tower and on the moon, and that image is most likely to be from when marduk ascended to the moon along with the rest of the cast
7)Marduk still dreams the infinite hierarchy below the moon and he would have and R/F over said hierarchy, making him low 1-A and the moon would transcend him making it 1-A either way
there is prolly other stuff that im not remembering from the thread rn, also, ping Iap

 

[PrinceofPein]

Agree with the OP

 

[Catzlaflame]

Tiered rn will respond to everything here tmr.

 

[Darksmash]

Agree with OP. Personally never really considered the evidence provided for the moon to be enough for 1-A.

 

[Delta333]

Agree with the proposal, not sure about the low 1-A thing in the discussion tho

 

[Rabbit2002]

agree with most of OP
The rest I wonder : Why not the "varies 11C-1B" as is the case with the Gods (magi), because they are not at the "top" of the hierarchy, just any finite number of layers higher or lower than the baseline?
Since the verse page implies higher spatial dimensions and the differences between them are similar to layers, does this make the hierarchy of layers a second hierarchy since the layers are not actually spatial dimensions?

 

[Darksmash]

Since the verse page implies higher spatial dimensions and the differences between them are similar to layers, does this make the hierarchy of layers a second hierarchy since the layers are not actually spatial dimensions?

I was pondering this too. I can see the layers straight up being 1-A if enough context is provided on that

 

[Rabbit2002]

I was pondering this too. I can see the layers straight up being 1-A if enough context is provided on that

"Finally, a worthy opponent! Our battle will be legendary" 11C characters in scp

Spoiler

Seriously I don't really find this enough for 1A/1A+ even there are Second hierarchy, at least mathematically. Assuming we consider layer A to be the first/lowest layer higher than baseline, layer A would be L1A (2^Aleph 0 or "R" spatial dimensions) then the whole hierarchy with its infinite layers is just R*omega spatial dimensions are so so much smaller than 1A requiring R^R (Aleph-2/2^R) spatial dimensions. In other words 1A would be equivalent to UI^UI spatial dimensions, with the difference between each spatial dimension and the previous being UI times (UI = uncountably infinite/Aleph-1/2^Aleph-0, omega = smallest countably infinite ordinal/"set/number"), whole hierarchy is this case only UI*omega time (much smaller than UI^2)
I know we always treated the second hierarchical cases like 1A+ but they are like circumvention and don't look closely at the true scale of the infinities/aleph, even the explanation page clearly states the difference between each aleph far beyond than entirely hierarchy below, in other words the difference between aleph-2 and Aleph-3 is much larger for aleph-2 and aleph-1, generalizable to any higher aleph/step in 1A

 

[Darksmash]

"Finally, a worthy opponent! Our battle will be legendary" 11C characters in scp

Spoiler

Seriously I don't really find this enough for 1A/1A+ even there are Second hierarchy, at least mathematically. Assuming we consider layer A to be the first/lowest layer higher than baseline, layer A would be L1A (2^Aleph 0 or "R" spatial dimensions) then the whole hierarchy with its infinite layers is just R*omega spatial dimensions are so so much smaller than 1A requiring R^R (Aleph-2/2^R) spatial dimensions. In other words 1A would be equivalent to UI^UI spatial dimensions, with the difference between each spatial dimension and the previous being UI times (UI = uncountably infinite/Aleph-1/2^Aleph-0, omega = smallest countably infinite ordinal/"set/number"), whole hierarchy is this case only UI*omega time (much smaller than UI^2)
I know we always treated the second hierarchical cases like 1A+ but they are like circumvention and don't look closely at the true scale of the infinities/aleph, even the explanation page clearly states the difference between each aleph far beyond than entirely hierarchy below, in other words the difference between aleph-2 and Aleph-3 is much larger for aleph-2 and aleph-1, generalizable to any higher aleph/step in 1A

Haha true. The wiki treats alephs in a very weird way, but it is what it is.

 

[Catzlaflame]

and that everything everyone has experienced over the course of the narrative is just different possibilities that can be replace I'd like to mention this set of scans where

K so this is gonna be hard to explain. I should’ve addressed this this in the OP tbh. but firstly here is the relevant statement:

“Another way to put it is that all experienced events themselves are no more than possibilities._They can be replaced”

Firstly note how he says “another way to put it” this was in respect to his original statement that humanity had evolved to the point that they could freely edit themselves and reprogram reality to their liking, he was saying that the statement of “everything is a possibility that can be replaced” is another way to denote the characters being able to reprogram/edit themselves, basically I think he was stating that everything is a possibility in the sense that each aspect of the verse is a thing that the cast can edit and that there is no set definition to what humans are, as the the way they are defined is just a possibility they can edit (like in a subjective reality warping kind of way ) not that the lower worlds are possibilities and that the moon is outside of all possibilities. Now that reasoning alone probably isn’t convincing, but there is something else that makes me think along these lines; this being the scene right after that one.

For context there is this girl named Izumo who is Lesbian, and is disappointed throughout the series cus she can’t have a child of her own, when nabu told her about the whole “events are possibilities that can be replaced thing” she got really annoyed because she thought it was beneath her. Now here is the scene: 1 2 3 4 5 6
so your probably asking why tf is this relevant? Well I’ll break down my reasoning, he said this;
Your longstanding desire wil be fulfilled Why do you not rejoice? You and your loved one can finally produce offspring together。Well、even without that sluggish process you just need to reorganize Some electronic data、and you’re good to go ”

Implying that with the “able to switch out any possibility thing” izumo had the ability to now edit herself to be able to have children. So essentially her not being able to have children is a possibility, and her editing herself to now be able to have children is her replacing that possibility I think this is what Nabu is referring to when he makes the possibilities statement. Again apologies for that bad explanation the author always has a way of being so indirect with what he writes, it’s annoying.

it's stated that at the level of the Moon, space and time are meaningless,

Logically speaking any higher r>f layer in any verse would view any lower layer’s time and space as if it were meaningless. In the context of I/O specifically a “lower” mutsuki world’s time and space would inherently be “meaningless” to a higher mutsuki world, What I’m saying is that, time and space being meaningless is something thats a constant in both normal r>f transcendence and transcendence that differentiates high-1B and a higher tier, no? so I can’t really see why this explicitly would prove it being the latter over the former. Especially given that, again, they are both founded upon the same kind of r>f and that we get a pretty blatant statement that implies Mutsuki’s dreams and Marduk are connected

. I'll also throw this in for good measure.

It’s the same scene as i included in the OP just a different route (this one)

agree with most of OP
The rest I wonder : Why not the "varies 11C-1B" as is the case with the Gods (magi), because they are not at the "top" of the hierarchy, just any finite number of layers higher or lower than the baseline?

Nah they aren’t finite layers above the baseline tho, they have a version of themselves at each layer of the hierarchy.

Since the verse page implies higher spatial dimensions and the differences between them are similar to layers, does this make the hierarchy of layers a second hierarchy since the layers are not actually spatial dimensions?

Wdym here ?

Anyway if the general consensus is that low-1A is more reasonable thats fine on the basis of the possibilities statement, since my contention for that isn’t as direct as I’d like it to be.

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody write a list of the members who helped out in the previous main I/0 revision thread, so I can call for them, please? Or are all of them here already?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/i-o-revision-thread.115306/

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, after reading the first post in this thread, it seems to make sense to me as well, so you can note me down as agreeing.

 

[Catzlaflame]

Anyway, after reading the first post in this thread, it seems to make sense to me as well, so you can note me down as agreeing.

Most of them are here. @Elizhaa demonstrated some interest Ig
I’ve already asked @Iapitus_The_Impaler to comment I don’t know if he’s interested tho.
Also @Zencha9 might be interested

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thanks.

@Elizhaa @Iapitus_The_Impaler @Zencha9

Would you be willing to help out here please?

 

[Rabbit2002]

Nah they aren’t finite layers above the baseline tho, they have a version of themselves at each layer of the hierarchy.

That's still 1B, if we're talking about their inhabitants
Since they are not infinite-D beings, it's just that in any finite higher dimension (googol, graham number bla bla) there is always a version of them. The versions are only 1B, since none of them are "highest" in the whole hierarchy.
Example: Gods (Magi)

 

[Catzlaflame]

That's still 1B, if we're talking about their inhabitants
Since they are not infinite-D beings, it's just that in any finite higher dimension (googol, graham number bla bla) there is always a version of them. The versions are only 1B, since none of them are "highest" in the whole hierarchy.
Example: Gods (Magi)

Hmm, yea that makes more sense actually.

 

[Antvasima]

So should the most powerful I/0 characters be 1-B instead of High 1-B?

 

[KingPin0422]

So should the most powerful I/0 characters be 1-B instead of High 1-B?

Nah. We know that Marduk is dreaming the existence of the entire hierarchy, and the Moon is also a level above the hierarchy, so even under the most conservative interpretation possible, I don't see the verse going any lower than High 1-B.

 

[Catzlaflame]

So should the most powerful I/0 characters be 1-B instead of High 1-B?

Nah, We were talking about the “in the hierarchy” keys not the moon key.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem. That is probably fine.

 

[deonment]

Logically speaking any higher r>f layer in any verse would view any lower layer’s time and space as if it were meaningless. In the context of I/O specifically a “lower” mutsuki world’s time and space would inherently be “meaningless” to a higher mutsuki world, What I’m saying is that, time and space being meaningless is something thats a constant in both normal r>f transcendence and transcendence that differentiates high-1B and a higher tier, no? so I can’t really see why this explicitly would prove it being the latter over the former. Especially given that, again, they are both founded upon the same kind of r>f and that we get a pretty blatant statement that implies Mutsuki’s dreams and Marduk are connected

the tower still abides by space-time, however, even if it transcends the space-time of lower layers they still obviously have a form of space and time, while the moon is wholly above that + why are you saying that Marduk is on the moon when that is happening on route E when all the characters transcend the tower and reach the moon, we literally see Marduk being born in the tower, same with Ashur, and as such that point about their dreams being the same doesn't matter, even if it was true, that doesn't mean the tower is the same kind of R/F, if we accept your proposal and say that the entire tower is Marduk's dream from on the moon, why would the moon be in the dreams, just because something is the birthplace of dreams doesn't mean it is a dream, that doesn't make any sense, and that statement if we take Marduk being on the moon doesn't mean the moon is in the dream of Marduk, it just means the Marduk's dream=mitsuki's dreams, which doesnt exactly stop the moon from being 1-A, hell marduk dreaming the whole tower makes the moon low 1-A at worst since it would be the only real location in the story, and defniletly not just infnity + 1 with everything around it

 

[KingPin0422]

Firstly, please break your posts down into a more readable format instead of trying to fit it all into one sentence. Secondly, I need you to post scans of what you're saying so that we can actually analyze your points rather than just trusting your words blindly.

 

[deonment]

sorry, if im not making a formatted post I type in a stream of consciousness so thats my b

 

[Catzlaflame]

+ why are you saying that Marduk is on the moon when that is happening on route E when all the characters transcend the tower and reach the moon, we literally see Marduk being born in the tower, same with Ashur,

Because it’d be the more logical conclusion I already explained this but alrighty, Also the “tower” (Ziggurat) is definitely not the hierarchy so idk why your equalizing them. The Ziggurat is eXarch’s underground base thingy, where they made Ashur and Marduk.

The Dreaming the hierarchy point:

Ok so The entirety of Mutsuki’s hierarchy is based on dreams, we can at least agree on that much. Marduk’s transcendence over the hierarchy is also based off dreams. Now let me just put it this way, take any Mutsuki on the hierarchy, say oh idk the 12D version of Mutsuki. This 12D mutsuki is dreaming the 11D Mutsuki who’s dreaming the 10D mutsuki who is dreaming the 9D Mutsuki etc.
In the 12D Mutsuki’s perspective she’d be dreaming the hierarchy up to her point, but we know the hierarchy extends after that, so it continues. Each higher Mutsuki dreams the part of the hierarchy below them, this extends to infinity and is the infinite spiral of dreams, Marduk dreams this and is the “final dreamer” so to speak. There is the infinite ascension of dreams + the final dream, the infinity + 1. Basically what I’m saying is the kind of transcendence that Marduk has over the hierarchy is the same level of transcendence that a higher Mutsuki has over a lower Mutsuki. . This is all again suppourted by my points of consistency in the op. However if you have something to bring to the table that indicates otherwise, I’m all-ears.

The Appearances thing

I had a really hard time trying to understand what your saying here but I’ll try my best.

So for one I think your asking why am I assuming Marduk is on the Moon from the beginning?

- we know The moon is the peak of the hierarchy. We know Marduk is at the peak of the hierarchy. We also know Marduk Did Not ascend with the rest of the cast but was still present on the moon because it is verbatim stated who had ascended; 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9, given this it really isnt to far-fetched to conclude he’s been on the moon before the IC’s.

And even if I go under the assumption that he did in fact ascend with them I really don’t understand why your assuming the moon is > Marduk.

But regarding Marduk being born in the hierarchy, yes that’s true, and I shouldve also explained that, but it’s explained by Marduk not having been at the top of the hierarchy when hewas born. To get to the point here is the relevant scan. When Marduk was born he didnt instantly ascend to the top or whatever, he started slowly absorbing everything around him at first and then eventually encompassed the entirety of the hierarchy, being of the same physiology the same would apply to Ashur . This all takes place before the main storyline. However them appearing within the hierarchy after they had ascended is interesting. For Ashur its prettty simple given his instance was not him appearing within the hierarchy but him just telepathically communicating with the characters (scan 1 scan 2 scan 3). For Marduk who appeared a lot more times it’s a bit more complex however if you give me the specific scene ill explain it.

that doesn't mean the tower is the same kind of R/F, if we accept your proposal and say that the entire tower is Marduk's dream from on the moon, why would the moon be in the dreams, just because something is the birthplace of dreams doesn't mean it is a dream,

What? The tower doesn’t have any kind of r>f at all, again the ziggurat is not the hierarchy. And The birthplace of Dreams thing is just me expanding on its nature, it wasn’t intended to be a point, it’s Just scans to paint a better picture for the reader and what not.

that doesn't make any sense, and that statement if we take Marduk being on the moon doesn't mean the moon is in the dream of Marduk, it just means the Marduk's dream=mitsuki's dreams, which doesnt exactly stop the moon from being 1-A,

I literally never said Marduk existing on the moon means the moon is part of his dreams tho….. ? Let me ask you this what kind of transcendence do you think the moon has over the hierarchy? Because the hierarchy possessing time and space and the moon lacking it is not an argument for a higher tier.

Firstly, please break your posts down into a more readable format instead of trying to fit it all into one sentence. Secondly, I need you to post scans of what you're saying so that we can actually analyze your points rather than just trusting your words blindly.

@KingPin0422 Would you be fine with the proposal being: “At least High-1B possibly Low-1A” then ig. Since most people seem to lean towards low-1A.

 

[Darksmash]

I don't really understand why lack of space time is any kind of evidence that the layer is beyond all extensions of the hierarchy. You can have a layer where space time exists and a layer where it doesn't. It doesn't serve to prove anything about the position of this layer on the hierarchy at all.

 

[Wuhaoyu]

Why is this moon regarded as the peak of hierarchy? Have high 1-B?

It just connects three different times, because at these three times, the moon turns red because of the total solar eclipse, and the characters regard it as the same day most of the time. This misunderstanding leads to the story in a sense.

The whole infinite ladder is related to the total lunar eclipse, but the moon has nothing to do with stratification. It should not get any level

These characters become 1-A because of the E 'ending, where they are in one place "containing everything but nothing, not before, now, or some day. Not here, there, not somewhere. This is the crevice of everything, the center."

But there is no Sakuya and mutsuki in this place, Sakuya and mutsuki are described as “in all places”.。

I saw the 1-A characters of Megami Tensei and Warhammer 40K. It seems that as long as they are on one of those layers, they can get 1-A

 

[Catzlaflame]

Why is this moon regarded as the peak of hierarchy? Have high 1-B?

Cus that’s where they ascend to.

I saw the 1-A characters of Megami Tensei and Warhammer 40K. It seems that as long as they are on one of those layers, they can get 1-A

Existing in a high-1B hierarchy isn’t 1-A.

 

[KingPin0422]

I don't even understand the comparison to MegaTen. That verse gets 1-A from statements of things exceeding the concept of higher dimensions as a whole, not from transcending infinite hierarchies. Unless they're insinuating that the Moon also bypasses higher-dimensional existence based on... being at the center and container of all existence???

 

[Antvasima]

So what has been accepted here so far?

 

[Catzlaflame]

So what has been accepted here so far?

Almost everyone has agreed to everything. There is one person above that seems to have given a definite disagree though
The only major topic of discussion is the possibility of a low-1A, personally I still do not see it but that’s just me.

could you tag ultima, he said he didn’t have any problems with the thread but he had wanted to wait before giving a definite opinion. Oh ye and laptius seems to be uninterested.

 

[Antvasima]

Almost everyone has agreed to everything. One person above seems to have disagreed tho
The only major topic of discussion is the possibility of a low-1A, personally I still do not see it but that’s just me.

could you tag ultima, he said he didn’t have any problems with the thread but he had wanted to wait before giving a definite opinion. Oh ye and laptius seems to be uninterested.

Okay. High 1-B is probably fine to apply then. Thank you for helping out.

@Ultima_Reality

Would you be willing to give a verdict here please?