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A I/O crt on the tier 1 stuff

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catzlaflame said:
Cus that’s where they ascend to.
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There is no mention of this in the game. The moon is only to connect specific time and different layers, not the "place" they ascend to.
catzlaflame said:
Existing in a high-1B hierarchy isn’t 1-A.
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What are the requirements for achieving 1-A? I found that many 1-A characters just go beyond the concepts of dimension and time, but there is no "significant effect", such as bishamonten (Shin Megami Tensei),BOB (Twin Peaks)，Doctor Manhattan，Futaba Sakura（persona5），SCP-1000

According to the description of I / O, we can really think of the characters with E 'ending, located in a place that does not belong to dimension and time, but there is no evidence that they can "significantly affect".

So, does it only need to be located in a place that does not belong to dimension and time, or must can "significantly affect"， to be regarded as 1-A?
 
Wuhaoyu said:
There is no mention of this in the game. The moon is only to connect specific time and different layers, not the "place" they ascend to.
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gyazo.com

Gyazo

gyazo.com gyazo.com

Wuhaoyu said:
What are the requirements for achieving 1-A? I found that many 1-A characters just go beyond the concepts of dimension and time, but there is no "significant effect", such as bishamonten (Shin Megami Tensei),BOB (Twin Peaks)，Doctor Manhattan，Futaba Sakura（persona5），SCP-1000
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The only way being beyond the concept of dimensions would grant 1-A would be if it’s in relation to a cosmology that has a higher r>f like with nasuverse, it only has a low-1C cosmology, but the root is above the entire notion of dimensionality in respect to this low-1C. So hypothetically if there were higher dimensions in nasuverse the root would still be above it. The same is what apparently applies to megami tensei and persona. Bob scales to cosmology. Scp 1000 scales to other characters.
Wuhaoyu said:
but there is no evidence that they can "significantly affect".

So, does it only need to be located in a place that does not belong to dimension and time, or must can "significantly affect"， to be regarded as 1-A?
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It just has to be completely external to it.
 
catzlaflame said:
gyazo.com

Gyazo

gyazo.com gyazo.com


The only way being beyond the concept of dimensions would grant 1-A would be if it’s in relation to a cosmology that has a higher r>f like with nasuverse, it only has a low-1C cosmology, but the root is above the entire notion of dimensionality in respect to this low-1C. So hypothetically if there were higher dimensions in nasuverse the root would still be above it. The same is what apparently applies to megami tensei and persona. Bob scales to cosmology. Scp 1000 scales to other characters.

It just has to be completely external to it.
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This picture only describes the corridor where they are located. As a person who completely passes the whole game, I'm sure the moon doesn't represent any layer. It just connects different layers and times, because the characters mistakenly think that the total lunar eclipse at different times is the same.

"containing everything but nothing, not before, now, or some day. Not here, there, not somewhere. This is the crevice of everything, the center." I don't know if this description can be regarded as completely external.....
 
Connecting everything in a high 1-B cosmology wouldn't magically become 1-A just like how a nexus connecting a multiverse wouldn't magically become a space that is infinitely larger than said multiverse.
 
Wuhaoyu said:
This picture only describes the corridor where they are located. As a person who completely passes the whole game, I'm sure the moon doesn't represent any layer. It just connects different layers and times, because the characters mistakenly think that the total lunar eclipse at different times is the same.
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K I mean you can go ahead and bring scans to try to support this, but Me, laptus, and A6cloute (the person who originally made the pages) all interpreted the moon as being a part of the cosmology. And it’s kinda evident with how the series states the moon being the origin of dreams and whatnot but again feel free to prove otherwise.

and the connecting thing honestly just serves to further my point on the moon not being above all extensions
 
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catzlaflame said:
Can I ask if you’ve made up your mind on high-1B or low-1A ?
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If the Moon is the birthplace/origin of dreams, and if the entire hierarchy is based on dreams, then that does sound like Low 1-A to me, but the idea of Marduk being on that level and having the same kind of R/F difference as what exists between any two given layers of the hierarchy kind of serves as an obstacle to that, I'll admit. I'm sure Ultima or whoever else is knowledgeable can resolve it, but for now, I'm on the fence.
 
I basically have no control over this series, but the arguments seem appropriate for High 1B maybe low 1A. i agree op
 
If I knew the series, I would like to help a lot more. but I want to say that the r>f thing is fine according to the presented arguments and marduk can be at least low 1A if it is true that hierarchy is his dream (correct me if I am wrong please) he has crossed the hierarchy and at least low 1A and 1A are debatable
 
KingPin0422 said:
If the Moon is the birthplace/origin of dreams, and if the entire hierarchy is based on dreams, then that does sound like Low 1-A to me, but the idea of Marduk being on that level and having the same kind of R/F difference as what exists between any two given layers of the hierarchy kind of serves as an obstacle to that, I'll admit. I'm sure Ultima or whoever else is knowledgeable can resolve it, but for now, I'm on the fence.
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The moon is not a character or place, or origin. Only three total lunar eclipses connect different times, but they are mistakenly regarded as the same total lunar eclipse by the characters. So it connects the infinite ladder, but it is not the origin of the infinite ladder，or higher level.
 
catzlaflame said:
K I mean you can go ahead and bring scans to try to support this, but Me, laptus, and A6cloute (the person who originally made the pages) all interpreted the moon as being a part of the cosmology. And it’s kinda evident with how the series states the moon being the origin of dreams and whatnot but again feel free to prove otherwise.
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Maybe it's a translation error in the English version?

After eight years of careful translation, the Chinese version is as close to the meaning of Japanese as possible. I didn't see any description of the moon above the infinite corridor at all.
 
catzlaflame said:
Because it’d be the more logical conclusion I already explained this but alrighty, Also the “tower” (Ziggurat) is definitely not the hierarchy so idk why your equalizing them. The Ziggurat is eXarch’s underground base thingy, where they made Ashur and Marduk.
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ah ic
catzlaflame said:
The Dreaming the hierarchy point:

Ok so The entirety of Mutsuki’s hierarchy is based on dreams, we can at least agree on that much. Marduk’s transcendence over the hierarchy is also based off dreams. Now let me just put it this way, take any Mutsuki on the hierarchy, say oh idk the 12D version of Mutsuki. This 12D mutsuki is dreaming the 11D Mutsuki who’s dreaming the 10D mutsuki who is dreaming the 9D Mutsuki etc.
In the 12D Mutsuki’s perspective she’d be dreaming the hierarchy up to her point, but we know the hierarchy extends after that, so it continues. Each higher Mutsuki dreams the part of the hierarchy below them, this extends to infinity and is the infinite spiral of dreams, Marduk dreams this and is the “final dreamer” so to speak. There is the infinite ascension of dreams + the final dream, the infinity + 1. Basically what I’m saying is the kind of transcendence that Marduk has over the hierarchy is the same level of transcendence that a higher Mutsuki has over a lower Mutsuki. . This is all again suppourted by my points of consistency in the op. However if you have something to bring to the table that indicates otherwise, I’m all-ears.
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Yes but the thing is is that they are still all fake in a sense, they are still within the hierarchy of dreams, and as such would still be bound to the hierarchy, however, the moon would not just be infinity + 1 since it is not apart of the hierarchy of dreams that forms the high 1-B structure, it exists outside of the entire thing of dreams and as such literally can't be infinity +1 since it is real compared to the hierarchy in which all of the levels are just being dreamt by Marduk, it exists outside of it, if the moon were within the dreams then yeah you could argue that, but you agreed with the fact that the moon is not in Marduk's dreams then it would exist outside of the hierarchy of dreams, if it was the capstone to said dreams rather than literally not being within the dreams as a whole then it would be high 1-B, however, it is not, Marduk and the moon are both real and have an r/f over the entire hierarchy, which should give them low 1-A at worst
catzlaflame said:
The Appearances thing

I had a really hard time trying to understand what your saying here but I’ll try my best.

So for one I think your asking why am I assuming Marduk is on the Moon from the beginning?

- we know The moon is the peak of the hierarchy. We know Marduk is at the peak of the hierarchy. We also know Marduk Did Not ascend with the rest of the cast but was still present on the moon because it is verbatim stated who had ascended; 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9, given this it really isnt to far-fetched to conclude he’s been on the moon before the IC’s.

And even if I go under the assumption that he did in fact ascend with them I really don’t understand why your assuming the moon is > Marduk.

But regarding Marduk being born in the hierarchy, yes that’s true, and I shouldve also explained that, but it’s explained by Marduk not having been at the top of the hierarchy when hewas born. To get to the point here is the relevant scan. When Marduk was born he didnt instantly ascend to the top or whatever, he started slowly absorbing everything around him at first and then eventually encompassed the entirety of the hierarchy, being of the same physiology the same would apply to Ashur . This all takes place before the main storyline. However them appearing within the hierarchy after they had ascended is interesting. For Ashur its prettty simple given his instance was not him appearing within the hierarchy but him just telepathically communicating with the characters (scan 1 scan 2 scan 3). For Marduk who appeared a lot more times it’s a bit more complex however if you give me the specific scene ill explain it.
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aight
catzlaflame said:
I literally never said Marduk existing on the moon means the moon is part of his dreams tho….. ? Let me ask you this what kind of transcendence do you think the moon has over the hierarchy? Because the hierarchy possessing time and space and the moon lacking it is not an argument for a higher tier.
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an r/f, and I was just using those stuff about it lacking time and space as supporting evidence for the higher tiers

TLDR:
The moon and Marduk are not apart of the hierarchy of dreams and stands above it in an r/f fashion and as such, it should be low 1-A at worst as it transcends and exists outside of the high 1-B structure, and those that scale to the moon also become low 1-A
 
Can somebody write a good explanation in a single post regarding what Ultima currently needs to evaluate, so I can ask him to do so, please?
 
Antvasima said:
Can somebody write a good explanation in a single post regarding what Ultima currently needs to evaluate, so I can ask him to do so, please?
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Oh okay, this will also serve as a reply to @deonment

- The r>f in the infinite hierarchy is based off of dreams and the moon is above the hierarchy, that much is agreed upon.

The moon where Marduk resides is the highest part of the cosmology from which Marduk views the hierarchy as a dream, yes the moon is not within the hierarchy however the difference between the moon and the highest point of the hierarchy is the same difference between each of the other layers in the hierarchy.

this coupled with Marduk and the hierarchy being stated to be connected is enough to contradict low-1A in my book, but again since an argument can at least be made for low-1A “high-1B possibly low-1A”
 
catzlaflame said:
Oh okay, this will also serve as a reply to @deonment

- The r>f in the infinite hierarchy is based off of dreams and the moon is above the hierarchy, that much is agreed upon.

The moon where Marduk resides is the highest part of the cosmology from which Marduk views the hierarchy as a dream, yes the moon is not within the hierarchy however the difference between the moon and the highest point of the hierarchy is the same difference between each of the other layers in the hierarchy.

this coupled with Marduk and the hierarchy being stated to be connected is enough to contradict low-1A in my book, but again since an argument can at least be made for low-1A “high-1B possibly low-1A”
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@Ultima_Reality @deonment
 
Based on all I've seen above, I'm largely fine with downgrade to High 1-B, yeah. The only thing that could support Low 1-A would interpreting that the Moon being the "birthplace of dreams" means that it fundamentally transcends the state of "dreaming" that defines that whole hierarchy to begin with (Which KingPin alluded to as a point for that tier up above), but this feels like a bit of a huge reach to me, since it could just as well mean that the Moon is the first point of the hierarchy from which all the other layers followed.

Of course, the set of all finite sequences of an infinite set is itself infinite, so the Moon could be higher than High 1-B given some context, even if it's just the top of the hierarchy, but this context seems to not exist here.
 
Thank you for helping out. We seem to have decided on accepting High 1-B ratings then.

Is somebody willing to apply the new statistics, and if so, which pages do I need to unlock? Please write a list of the EXACTLY WORDED page titles, so my automated script can handle it.
 
Antvasima said:
Thank you for helping out. We seem to have decided on accepting High 1-B ratings then.

Is somebody willing to apply the new statistics, and if so, which pages do I need to unlock? Please write a list of the EXACTLY WORDED page titles, so my automated script can handle it.
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Mutsuki
Kawahara Sakuya
HE
Ashur
Aoi Hinata
Ishtar (I/O)
Inanna
Shinozuka Masami
Ayase Mika
Amane Yayoi
Enlil (I/O)
Ea (I/O)
Izawa Nami
LEM
 
Thank you. I will unlock the pages. Tell me here when you are done.
 
Well, there is no great hurry. Maybe they were busy IRL.
 
Have you applied all of the other intended changes to all of the I/O pages?
 
Okay. No problem. But we should preferably not close this thread until after all of the relevant edits have been applied.

Tell us here when you are done.
 
Wait the base layer has MWI ? Then that's high hyper coz MWI uses Hilbert space which supports infinite dimensions which makes the hierarchy infinite layers into low outer coz each layer transcends the last which would make marduke dreaming the hierarchy outerversal breh
 
Ichigo404 said:
Wait the base layer has MWI ? Then that's high hyper coz MWI uses Hilbert space which supports infinite dimensions which makes the hierarchy infinite layers into low outer coz each layer transcends the last which would make marduke dreaming the hierarchy outerversal breh
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MWI isn't high 1-B by default
 
Was what was accepted here ever applied in practice?
 
catzlaflame said:
I was inactive for like 3 months cus of health complications (car accident) and it happened between this revision so I never finished. If you would be so kind as to unlock the pages I will finish.
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Which profiles need to be unlocked? Also glad to have you back with good health.
 
Dereck03 said:
They seems to be unlocked since February
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Oh… apologies for any inconveniences regarding that. I should’ve discussed it with a content mod or ant, at least when I came back on the site

Also I finished editing most pages, except Marduk. Could you please unlock that page? and lock the other ones.
 
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