A few Daedra Princes at 2-A

[Gwynbleiddd]

Seeing that Trinimac is 2-A and Boethiah and Mephala defeated and corrupted him shouldn't they be 2-A as well ,and a few other Daedra Princes and Gods should powerscale to that level too.A few examples being Talos ,Molag Bal (enemie of Boethiah) , Jyygalag (strongest prince) ,sheogorath (possibly) ,Meridia (slightly below Molag Bal) ,Azura (one of the strongest princes ) ,Magnus (stronger that Meridia).

 

[Alakabamm]

Didn't it just corrupt him, not defeat him?

 

[Antvasima]

It depends on whether or not Trinimac is appropriately evaluated. What makes him 2-A in the first place?

 

[The_Everlasting]

They defeated him through trickery, not raw power IIRC.

 

[Jockey-1337]

wow

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

@Ant He is powerscaled from Akatosh who is 2-A for splitting the timeline of Mundus into several others ,then merging them back together ,also his power affects Aetherius ,Oblivion and Mundus ,which i think should place him at least at 2-B but i'm not sure about 2-A ,so should i downgrade Akatosh ,Lorkhan and Trinimac at 2-B ?

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

@Ever still they should have been comperable to him somehow.

 

[Alakabamm]

Yeah, but it doesn't really seem consistent to me per se. If we bring all those princes up to 2-A it conflicts with the interpretation of Akatosh being stronger than the Daedric Princes generally. If we bring Trinimac down to 2-B we neglect the fact that he defeated a 2-A opponent head-on in a clear fight. I think it is best to think of this as just pure corruption/bad choices and treat it as an outlier.

 

[Antvasima]

Are infinite or "near infinite" timelines or universes ever mentioned for any of the divines or princes?

If not, they should probably be downgraded to 2-B. It is an extremely wide tier.

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

Are you talking about Lorkhan? what makes him 2-A?

2-B is an increadible vast tier ,going from 1001 universes to 10^500 ( a pretty insane number) which means Akatosh could be billions * billions * billions *trillions times stronger than the princes and still be 2-B

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

@Ant i'm not sure , i will have to check but each Prince has thousands of personal universes so 2-B is reasonable.

 

[Alakabamm]

It is suggested that there is an infinite number of planes of Oblivion (from Oblivion) and time flows in those areas so Akatosh has control of it.

Not sure where the timeline stuff is from - that might be a reference to the game mechanics, where you have a technical infinite number of saves.

 

[Antvasima]

All right. Thank you for the information.

 

[Phantasys]

Boethiah supposedly defeated and ATE him to corrupt him after he/she crapped him out...this wasn't a turn to the dark side moment. This was a destroyed and unholy resurrection moment.

 

[Sheoth]

There is some conflictions regarding TES lore. One source says Mephala and Boethiah corrupted Trinimac, another says Boethiah bested him in combat and ate (corrupted) him, which then transformed him into Malacath.

The legitimate version will need to be found before any kind of upgrades are made. But even then, I still need to check to see if Trinimac really is comparable to Akatosh.

 

[Antvasima]

That would be appreciated, thank you.

 

[Sheoth]

No problem.

 

[Alakabamm]

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/The_Changed_Ones (In this in-game book, it says that Trinimac was the strongest of the Aedra, one of the Aedra also being Akatosh. Also, it shows that the true tale is one in which Boethiah tricked Trinimac into its' mouth).

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/The_Monomyth (Trinimac rips Lorkhan's heart out in one of three interpretations of the tale, Lorkhan being the equal of Akatosh).

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

guys

yffre is tiered at 2-B, possibly 2-A

while his AP is at multiversal+

so, should i take off the 2-B from the tier?

 

[Sheoth]

[Warning, this will be a long post]

As Alakabamm stated above, Trinimac is certainly at least as powerful as Akatosh due to statements from the lore and possibly from defeating Lorkhan. Also, in case anyone was wondering, SpiralMaster perfectly summed up here why Akatosh is placed at 2-A.

If Trinimac, is equal to Akatosh, then Malacath would would, by extension, be 2-A as well as opposed to 2-C due to being the same exact being as before, simply with a different mentality. However, as for Boethiah, I can really not say for certain whether or not she is warranted an upgrade as well. Skimming through the Imperial Library, I see conflicting stories either saying how she "defeated" Trinimac and then consumed him, or how she simply "corrupted" him and ruined his image to his followers. In other words, it is too vague to place Boethiah at 2-A in my honest opinion.

This however, does bring up some of the other Princes as well. Jyggalag, for example, is stated as being one the strongest Daedric princes. This would logically include all of the other Daedric Princes, including Malacath. Henceforth, Jyggalag would be given a 2-A ranking as well.

This may seem odd, but not as much as one might think. [History lesson inbound] The Aedra and Daedra are also known as the Et'Ada, who were the old spirits born of Anu and Padomay's interplay. The Aedra (who were not called Aedra yet at this point) were born of the mixing between the Blood of Anu and Padomay, whereas the Daedra were born strictly of Padomay's blood, and are thus, completely alien beings of different nature to man. Akatosh, being the first Et'Ada to form is also one of the most powerful as we have seen. [History lesson over] The reason I brought this up is because it shows that Akatosh is one of the most powerful of the Aedra, whereas the Daedra are a completely separate group of beings, and it stands to reason, that they would most likely have their own beings that stand at the top of the power ladder (Like Jyggalag). By this, it would not be impractical to assume that Jyggalag is likely 2-A as well due to being a threat to the other Princes, and that his domain "extends accross the sea of Oblivion" (under the Jyggalag section).

Now, this also begs the question, would Sheogorath be higher than 2-C? I would honestly think so, and here's why. If Trinimac was simply tricked and corrupted by Boethiah, and never technically beaten in combat by her, then Boethiah is not warranted an upgrade. However, it does mean that Malacath is still 2-A due to still being the same god, just with a twisted persona (as I stated above previously). By this same logic, Sheogorath would be no weaker than Jyggalag, just simply the same being with a completely different visage. This is the exact same instance with Boethiah, because there are conflictions on whether or not Jyggalag was "defeated" by all of the other Princes, or simply cursed to live as what he hated most out of hatred and fear from the others (Noted under the "Jyggalag" section).

So what this tells us is that we have 2 options: First being that we go with the idea that Boethiah "beat" Trinimac, and that the other princes "beat" Jyggalag and upgrade them all to some degree. Though this option would make less sense as it would imply that Boethiah and, by extension, all of the other princes are on Akatosh's level, which is absurd. OR, we go with the prospect that Malacath and Sheograth were manipulated in a different way, but still posses the same power that they did previously (as nothing implies that they ever were weakend by their transformations). This option would make much more sense imo.

Anyway, that's my very long 2 cents. Feel free to ask any questions or tell me if you disagree with something or if I made a mistake.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I think that what you are saying seems to make sense. However, I would like to point out that 2-A is an even more ridiculously wide tier than 2-B, so just because different characters are placed within it, it does not remotely mean that they are equal.

 

[Alakabamm]

If Jyggalag is getting upgraded then the Champion of Cyrodiil probably should be upgraded as well since he beats him 1 on 1 in the DLC. He also takes over his role as prince of madness.

 

[Sheoth]

That is very true, and I see your concern, Ant.

But in this case, we have solid reasoning for placing Akatosh and Trinimac at 2-A. So it all comes down to determining whether or not Jyggalag is actually on par with Malacath (Trinimac).

I think it stands to reason that he would be, due to the fact that ALL of the Princes felt the need to do something about the growing power of Jyggalag, which would include Malacath (Trinimac).

Considering that Trinimac's conversion supposedly happened in very early history around the Merethic era , he would most likely have been one of the Princes that confronted Jyggalag.

 

[Antvasima]

@Sheoth I mean that just because Akatosh is much stronger than most of the other Aedra and Daedra it does not mean that the others are automatically excluded from the same 2-A category, especially if the differences between them are not astronomical.

@Alakabamm Aren't the manifeststions of the Daedra extremely limited in Mundus?

 

[Sheoth]

@Antvasima:

Apologies, I misread your post. Well in that case, do you think that Jyggalag, Sheogorath and Malacath should be upgraded to 2-A, and then sort out the other Princes afterwards?

 

[Alakabamm]

The Sheogorath DLC takes place in Sheogorath's plane of Oblivion aka the Shivering Isles.

 

[Antvasima]

@Sheoth Probably, yes, if you think that it is appropriate.

@Alakabamm Hmm. That does not particularly make any sense though. If the Champion possessed such power on his lonesome, he would have been able to destroy any and all opposition at once by breathing lightly. Are you certain that Sheogorath did not just create a reasonably challenging avatar?

 

[Sheoth]

@Antvasima:

Alright. I can make the changes then. If that's alright?

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Sheoth]

Alright, I changed them. As for the other Princes, I will look up more info tomorrow because I have to go to bed now.

 

[Antvasima]

All right then.

 

[ThePerpetual]

@Sheoth This current plan of action seems reasonable enough to me.

 

[Sheoth]

@Sheoth This current plan of action seems reasonable enough to me.

Thank you.

 

[Alakabamm]

@Sheoth Probably, yes, if you think that it is appropriate.
@Alakabamm Hmm. That does not particularly make any sense though. If the Champion possessed such power on his lonesome, he would have been able to destroy any and all opposition at once by breathing lightly. Are you certain that Sheogorath did not just create a reasonably challenging avatar?

Well, the thing is, the CoC had probably ascended to becoming Sheogorath at that point. After the battle he was Sheogorath but there are inclinations that suggest that he was taking some of that power beforehand.

It's unlikely that Jyggalag was taking it easy because Jyggalag hates madness/chaos/lack of order. They're like cats and dogs, it would have been a brutal death match.

 

[Antvasima]

I thought that he fought Sheogorath, and that it was first after he won that Sheogorath turned into Jyggalag again, due to the Champion taking his position?

 

[Alakabamm]

Well no, by that point he had fully returned to being Jyggalag once more. After you defeat Jyggalag is when he officially bestows you the seat of Sheogorath but he doesn't turn back to Sheogorath once the Grey March is fully underway.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. If he could return to being Jyggalag on his own, what did he need the Champion for? It seems like a plot hole.

 

[Alakabamm]

He can't he needs someone to prevent him from destroying his realm + displace him so he can roam Oblivion in his original form. The change to Jyggalag is quite involuntarily and occurs every century or something. The change is called the Grey March. They two personas hate each other.

 

[Antvasima]

I see. However, the Champion did not have the power to fight Daedra before gaining the power of Sheogorath. Correct? So why would we need to change his statistics?

 

[Alakabamm]

Correct. However, he has a 2-B persona on his profile as Sheogorath (because technically they are one and the same) and if the fake original Sheogorath + Jyggalag are getting moved up (also one singular profile), then his 2-B persona should as well.