A correction on SCP-2747.

[Blue_Vortex_Buster]

Greetings. I am an outsider coming from the SCP Wiki who has happened to get their eyes in this wiki's SCP-2747 page, and single battle against a certain Monarch of Pointland.

I am not in any way extensively informed about this site's system for evaluating strengths, but I have read the relevant pages regarding my input.

"Tier: Varies, 11-C to Low 2-C | Varies, 11-C to 1-B"

"Powers and Abilities: Immortality (Type 5, possibly type 8, is a cluster of signs and iconographies that spontaneously pop up within narratives), Non-Corporeal (Exists as an anti-narrative), Text Manipulation, Plot Manipulation, Void Manipulation, Causality Manipulation, Conceptual Manipulation | All previous abilities plus Memory Manipulation, Data Manipulation"

Not sure on how to "quote" here.
Anyways, I believe your interpretation of what a narrative is differs from the one applied to the one presented by the SCP Wiki, which is the one I feel should be applied to SCP-2747.

While the influence of SCP-2747 decreases the farther away your narrative resides from the one currently inhabited by it, it's Tier is always at its highest point whenever it exists in a position to engage in combat. This takes me to the next point: The maximum tier is also higher.

SCP-2747 is at least, at Tier 1-A, and as far as my interpretation of SCP-2747 understands, it is well above Tier 0. Before you laugh at me and ban me for being biased, let me explain myself.

1) SCP-2747 is above the concept of dimensions, as it is a narrativic anomaly: Dimensions exist within a certain narrative, and abide by the narrative's rules. As so, while time and space might differ from dimension to dimension, the narrative stays always the same, including the rules by which those dimensions abide.

2) As such, SCP-2747 is able to erase anything existing within a narrative: Should the conditions be met, elements from the narrative would be erased, including any characters, and regardless of their narrativic manipulation (Or as named in this site, Plot Manipulation).

Regarding SCP-2747's immortality, I would like to explain that SCP-2747 posseses Tier 10 Immortality. Let me first explain why it is not Tier 5 or 8.

"5: Deathless Immortality: Characters who exist unbound by conventional life or death, or do not exist at all, and thus cannot be traditionally killed. Typically, abilities such as Existence Erasure are needed to destroy them."

While SCP-2747 is unbound by life or death, it cannot be killed by destroying existence. Why is this? Because SCP-2747 is (literally) above existence on a narrativic interpretation. It exists outside narratives, and destroys them from the inside, without abiding by that narrative's rules, needing it only to develop the conditions.

"8: Reliant Immortality: The character cannot die as long as a certain being, object, or even concept exists."

While this one is much more accurate, the destruction of the metaphysical elements needed for its manifestation does not "kill" SCP-2747. Imagine it as anti-matter interacting with matter, with the difference that matter needs to first "penetrate" anti-matter to destroy it. If, hypothetically, this penetration is sealed and the matter inside destroyed, anti-matter would survive, but matter would still be able to try again. This works similarly for narratives.

Tier 10 would be a much more accurate fixation for SCP-2747, as it cannot be harmed as long as the attempting subject exists within narrative. For explanation, see Fifthism and SCP-3125.

Finally, a minor nitpick.

"Weaknesses: Plot Manipulation, the narrative which 2747 resides in can be rewritten to remove it, this can be done by ordinary humans."

While this is objectively true, SCP-2747 itself cannot be removed by narrative manipulation, as it exists outside it. Also, these "ordinary humans" would have to be at an explicitely higher narrative, which would qualify them for elimination of any characters from any lower narrative, and make for a pretty queer system that would be a headache to apply.

This might sound like junk to you, but I'm willing to discuss and further explain as far as I know.

 

[Agnaa]

Essentially I think you're mostly right in the intentions with writing the article, but there's not enough evidence to meet our strict standards for those requirements.

For example, take how God-Ma is only "At least 2-C", despite being a character written to be literally omnipotent (tier 0). This is because while the author intention is for the character to be stronger, their showings in the text don't qualify them for a higher tier.

I'm not sure about tiering SCP-2747 as always being its highest tier. Sure, while it could manifest in those higher narratives, if its manifestation is only in a lower narrative, that lower-narrative manifestation can only destroy that lower narrative. Its narremes would have to spontaneously manifest in a higher narrative to be able to affect that, which I think is accurately reflected on the profile.

While the intention of narratives in SCP may be to be above all dimensionality, the actual writing is just barely short of reaching that. There are some statements that might be 1-A, and they're being discussed in this thread, but as of writing that article there wasn't real proof that each narrative could contain up to infinite dimensions, which they'd need to for existing beyond them to be reasonably be taken as being beyond all dimensionality.

That's essentially because, seeing 196,884 dimensions as fiction could just mean that you exist beyond 196,884 dimensions, possibly at 196,885 dimensions. But if you see infinite dimensions as fiction, then you'd be beyond dimensionality as a whole. There's other ways verses can reach 1-A, but SCP is currently just barely short on all criteria.

SCP-2747 is able to erase anything existing in a narrative, but certain iconography needs to first manifest in that narrative, and then accumulate to a certain extent before it can get erased. I think "Varies" represents this well.

While SCP-2747 can't be destroyed by existence erasure, that isn't a requirement for having type 5 immortality. Typically type 5 immortals can be beaten in that way, but some can't.

For type 8, I wasn't really talking about the metaphysical elements for manifestation needing to be destroyed to "kill" SCP-2747, but more that the laws of how narratives function that let SCP-2747 exist need to be changed before SCP-2747 can be removed for good.

It's essentially reliant on narratives functioning the way they do.

I agree with your minor nitpick about the weakness. It can't be removed permanently, but it can be removed temporarily. I would like to change it to be "This can be done by ordinary humans that see it as fiction" or "This can be done by ordinary humans that are part of higher narratives".

 

[Blue_Vortex_Buster]

"This is because while the author intention is for the character to be stronger, their showings in the text don't qualify them for a higher tier."

A commendation to whoever decided that. It's a beautiful rule.

However, in this case, SCP-2747's properties have been shown. The tale Fifthdatio shows it happen. There's another tale that explains it better in the ES (spanish) SCP branch, but it's of course in spanish. I politely disagree on your viewpoint, but it's completely understandable.

"Sure, while it could manifest in those higher narratives, if its manifestation is only in a lower narrative, that lower-narrative manifestation can only destroy that lower narrative."

That is completely right. However, for it to be able to engage in combat, it would need to explicitly be at the same, or extremely close narrative than its rival, which would qualify for its highest tier or very close.

"There are some statements that might be 1-A, and they're being discussed in this thread, but as of writing that article there wasn't real proof that each narrative could contain up to infinite dimensions, which they'd need to for existing beyond them to be reasonably be taken as being beyond all dimensionality."

Actually, there are a few. I can't really remember the SCP numbers right now, so guess my argument is null and void.

"That's essentially because, seeing 196,884 dimensions as fiction could just mean that you exist beyond 196,884 dimensions, possibly at 196,885 dimensions. But if you see infinite dimensions as fiction, then you'd be beyond dimensionality as a whole"

That would be being in a higher narrative. SCP-2747 always rises from below, but as an outsider to narrative. This is explained in its page, or heavily implied.

"SCP-2747 is able to erase anything existing in a narrative, but certain iconography needs to first manifest in that narrative, and then accumulate to a certain extent before it can get erased. I think "Varies" represents this well."

These icons are expressed to "naturally manifest" within a narrative. However, this is also expressed to be SCP-2747 attempting to board a universe. When given enough time, these icons appear randomly, or can be replicated intentionally. This is why the SCP Foundation has developed a bot that writes narratives, and these narratives get invariably destroyed.

"For type 8, I wasn't really talking about the metaphysical elements for manifestation needing to be destroyed to "kill" SCP-2747, but more that the laws of how narratives function that let SCP-2747 exist need to be changed before SCP-2747 can be removed for good."

Wouldn't this be different from narrative manipulation?

"I agree with your minor nitpick about the weakness. It can't be removed permanently, but it can be removed temporarily. I would like to change it to be "This can be done by ordinary humans that see it as fiction" or "This can be done by ordinary humans that are part of higher narratives"."

Probably the latter, as a being in a narrative affected by SCP-2747 can view it as fiction without being able to remove it.

 

[Agnaa]

However, in this case, SCP-2747's properties have been shown. The tale Fifthdatio shows it happen. There's another tale that explains it better in the ES (spanish) SCP branch, but it's of course in spanish. I politely disagree on your viewpoint, but it's completely understandable.

I haven't read that tale yet. I'll read it after I post this, but what exactly does it show happening?

That is completely right. However, for it to be able to engage in combat, it would need to explicitly be at the same, or extremely close narrative than its rival, which would qualify for its highest tier or very close.

Technically this wiki is more interested in categorizing characters than setting them up for fights (the fights are mostly there as entertainment for active members), and I see your point, but there could be times where this isn't the case. For example, the other character could be another character that's always fictional to the same level as SCP-2747, and as such doesn't have a tier for being equally real. These could both be considered to fight in their equally fictional forms.

Or for a more likely example, SCP-2747's first key could fight a character like Sayori or Lucy , a character who starts off at a lower tier but can eventually end up at a higher tier. Making the fight a sort of race to who can reach reality-level powers more quickly.

Actually, there are a few. I can't really remember the SCP numbers right now, so guess my argument is null and void.

If you ever remember them I'd appreciate you posting them.

That would be being in a higher narrative. SCP-2747 always rises from below, but as an outsider to narrative. This is explained in its page, or heavily implied.

Sure, but after rising from below they'd be in a higher narrative, or at least have full control over the current narrative and be capable of destroying it, as I think is implied by its crosslink in A Quiet Night.

These icons are expressed to "naturally manifest" within a narrative. However, this is also expressed to be SCP-2747 attempting to board a universe. When given enough time, these icons appear randomly, or can be replicated intentionally. This is why the SCP Foundation has developed a bot that writes narratives, and these narratives get invariably destroyed.

I agree, as mentioned in the second key, the "Varies" there is supposed to represent how it's known to escape to higher narratives through its own power, as described in Operation Overmeta.

Wouldn't this be different from narrative manipulation?

100% yes, it would need to be done through something like Law Manipulation, on a scale large enough to rewrite the laws of narratives as a whole.

Probably the latter, as a being in a narrative affected by SCP-2747 can view it as fiction without being able to remove it.

Good catch.

 

[Blue_Vortex_Buster]

"I'll read it after I post this, but what exactly does it show happening?"

Exactly at the ending, it is shown how a D- writes SCP-2747's properties on SCP-3125's documentation.

"These could both be considered to fight in their equally fictional forms."

Alright, but how would this happen if SCP-2747 depends entirely on which narrative houses it?

"Making the fight a sort of race to who can reach reality-level powers more quickly."

However, SCP-2747's powers are always the same. In this case, Sayori would be on a clock until all the keys necessary for SCP-2747 appear.

"Sure, but after rising from below they'd be in a higher narrative, or at least have full control over the current narrative and be capable of destroying it, as I think is implied by its crosslink in A Quiet Night."

Which is why the title, "As Below, So Above".

"100% yes, it would need to be done through something like Law Manipulation, on a scale large enough to rewrite the laws of narratives as a whole."

Wouldn't this imply that there are tiers to Law Manipulation? A theoretical "Law Bender" could modify a narrative's laws to delay SCP-2747, but would be still vulnerable to it. However, a theoretical higher being, such as us or higher, would modify the laws by which narratives as a whole work, allowing a more successful defense.

 

[Agnaa]

Exactly at the ending, it is shown how a D- writes SCP-2747's properties on SCP-3125's documentation.

I don't think the properties it wrote down for 2747 are very useful for the page.

SCP-3125 is defeatable. SCP-2747 can defeat SCP-3125. There are seven true archons. Seven seven seven seven seven seven seven. Thorns will defeat SCP-3125. Black will defet 3125. Defat 3125. obliVion obliviOn ObliViOn dfeat 3125 blak blakc black black black black black

I don't think this tale can make SCP-2747 1-A, but it does give useful insight into how its abilities work. I should probably give it Reality Warping based on what it seemingly did to Task Force Mu-7 at the start.

Alright, but how would this happen if SCP-2747 depends entirely on which narrative houses it?

It's essentially only not using its higher tier by a technicality. SCP-2747 would be considered capable of destroying the narrative its inhabiting.

However, SCP-2747's powers are always the same. In this case, Sayori would be on a clock until all the keys necessary for SCP-2747 appear.

Sure, but that's one way a fight could happen.

And even if SCP-2747 can't practically fight people when in lower narratives, I think it's still useful for the profile to include what sort of destructive power 2747 would have from the main-narrative's perspective when it's inhabiting a lower one.

Which is why the title, "As Below, So Above".

Yep. We're agreeing a lot, do we still hold a disagreement?

Wouldn't this imply that there are tiers to Law Manipulation? A theoretical "Law Bender" could modify a narrative's laws to delay SCP-2747, but would be still vulnerable to it. However, a theoretical higher being, such as us or higher, would modify the laws by which narratives as a whole work, allowing a more successful defense.

Yes, that's exactly what it implies. A being would have to have Law Manipulation demonstrated to work on constructs comparable to SCP's narratives, rather than Law Manipulation just working on a single universe.

 

[Blue_Vortex_Buster]

"I should probably give it Reality Warping based on what it seemingly did to Task Force Mu-7 at the start."

Nono, that's 3125. The entire thing is pretty much Fifthism except for the end.

"And even if SCP-2747 can't practically fight people when in lower narratives, I think it's still useful for the profile to include what sort of destructive power 2747 would have from the main-narrative's perspective when it's inhabiting a lower one."

Still, there should probably be a note regarding that. The Monarch of Pointland fight used SCP-2747 at 11-C rating, which is pretty much a pathetic understatement of how a conflict between both would play out.

"We're agreeing a lot, do we still hold a disagreement?"

Thonk.

Nice to see we agree on a lot of things. I'm pretty surprised by this site's quality. Maybe I'll contribute more to it.

Guess I can't access chat because I'm new? :thinking:

 

[Agnaa]

SCP-3125 already has reality warping, so it wouldn't need to be added, I guess.

If a note should be added to 2747's profile regarding to 11-C tier, what should it cover?

Do you disagree with the result of the match? That MoP wouldn't be able to rewrite the lower narrative SCP-2747's in, and would eventually get consumed when SCP-2747 breaches its narrative?

I've heard some bad things about quality for some areas on the site, but I try to keep the profiles I work on as accurate as possible.

Yeah you can't access chat until you have 10 edits (forum posts count as edits).

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Before I comment on this thread too extensively, I will say our info on SCP and it's cosmology is fairly limited since there is just so much stuff to go through. So any member of the site helping us evaluate characters and feats are wholeheartedly welcomed.

I'm not entirely sure how this would apply to characters like SCP-3812 and SCP-001 (S Andrew Swann's Proposal), which are both tied extensively to Pataphysics but don't seem to have anything I'm aware of that puts them above the infinite layers of narratives SCP is composed of.

I'm also curious on Yaldaboath and Mekhane's interactions with higher dimensions and narratives, as featwise I haven't found much outside of them being multiversal threats.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Dargoo So ignoring the quote about Yaldabaoth destroying spatial dimensions and being directly tied to a hub of higher spatial dimensions...?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

And i will gladly post quotes that put 001 swann and the eventual 3812 above the infinite narrative layers

 

[Agnaa]

@Dargoo So ignoring the quote about Yaldabaoth destroying spatial dimensions and being directly tied to a hub of higher spatial dimensions...?

That quote's been debated enough already.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Agnaa Not sure what youre referring to but there is a blatant statement of it destroying higher order spatial dimensions

 

[Agnaa]

@Agnaa Not sure what youre referring to but there is a blatant statement of it destroying higher order spatial dimensions

Really? I've only seen the one about destroying "all dimensions" (along with talking about him destroying all realities, and all realms). Please post it, but preferably somewhere else so it doesn't derail.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Both Alagada and Yaldy's statements have been debated to death already. I was asking for some actual new information.

And yeah this is probably derailing the main thread here; was mostly just asking the OP for their opinion on some of the hot topics.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I have plenty of new information

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Let's see them. Preferably on a new thread, though.

 

[Blue_Vortex_Buster]

"If a note should be added to 2747's profile regarding to 11-C tier, what should it cover?"

A brief explanation about narrative levels and their correlation with 2747's tier.

"Do you disagree with the result of the match? That MoP wouldn't be able to rewrite the lower narrative SCP-2747's in, and would eventually get consumed when SCP-2747 breaches its narrative?"

I believe the match was horribly in favor of SCP-2747. To a stupid degree.

 

[Agnaa]

A brief explanation about narrative levels and their correlation with 2747's tier.

I'm not sure exactly what it should look like, could you give me a rough draft or some specific points to go over?

I believe the match was horribly in favor of SCP-2747. To a stupid degree.

Fair.

 

[Blue_Vortex_Buster]

"I'm not sure exactly what it should look like, could you give me a rough draft or some specific points to go over?"

Sure. I've proposed a general Law of Narrativics in the other forum to aid with other characters, but probably SCP-2747 needs it more.


"SCP-2747's Tier is subjected to the narrative in which it resides. Assuming a direct battle were to take place, its tier would always be at its highest, since it would be present in that narrative, and due to SCP-2747's inherent properties, able to erase it. However, SCP-2747 stands at its lowest tier while not present in our viewpoint narrative, being able to be erased, distracted, and otherwise temporarily dealt with. However, while SCP-2747 can be temporarily dealt with, it's constantly "rising narratives" and is, as we understand, completely invulnerable. A fight against SCP-2747, assuming it is not present in our viewpoint narrative, would be determined by time and attrition.

NOTE: Narratives must not be confused with dimensions. A narrative can contain multiple universes and dimensions, while universes and dimensions can only hold lower narratives."

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Looks good to me.

Thanks for helping with SCP stuff here, again.

 

[Agnaa]

Thanks for typing that out. I've reworded it slightly, does this seem fine?

"Note: SCP-2747's Tier is subjected to the narrative in which it resides. Assuming a direct battle were to take place, its tier would be at its highest, since it would be present in that narrative, and due to SCP-2747's inherent properties, able to erase that narrative. However, SCP-2747 stands at its lowest tier while not present in our viewpoint narrative, being able to be erased, distracted, and otherwise temporarily dealt with. However, while SCP-2747 can be temporarily dealt with, it's constantly "rising narratives" and is extremely difficult to put down permanently. A fight against SCP-2747, assuming it is in a lower narrative, would be determined by time and attrition. It is also important to note that narratives must not be confused with dimensions. A narrative can contain multiple universes and dimensions, while universes and dimensions can only hold lower narratives."

 

[Blue_Vortex_Buster]

You're welcome. It is a pleasure.

 

[Agnaa]

Since you might have missed it, I left a reply just above rewording your note.

 

[Blue_Vortex_Buster]

Oh sorry. Saw it now!

Yes, it's 100% alright.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

@Blue

I left a message on your wall, btw

(EDIT) Wait nvm you're on the discord now

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

May I ask, what are the conclusions here?

 

[Agnaa]

Expand the weakness section (already applied), and add that note to the profile, I guess.

 

[Blue_Vortex_Buster]

May I ask, what are the conclusions here?

Pretty much a correction on how narratives work, to prevent misuse of Tiers and give some more grounds in which to understand how 2747 works.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Thank you.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

What is it with people and assuming being "narrative stacking" somehow make it "Tier 0, possibly higher?"

 

[WeeklyBattles]

>Tier 0

>Possibly higher

?

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Well, other then the origin of the quote, the OP says SCP hould be above TIer 0

 

[Agnaa]

What is it with people and assuming being "narrative stacking" somehow make it "Tier 0, possibly higher?"

Because of misunderstandings of the tiering system. If they think of being one narrative higher as having full power over a lower narrative, they take that as meaning omnipotence, therefore tier 0. And since there's higher narratives, they'd think that reaching above that means going above tier 0.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Yeah that just seemed to be a slight misunderstanding of the system.

 

[Agnaa]

Bump. Can we add this to the profile?

"Note: SCP-2747's Tier is subjected to the narrative in which it resides. Assuming a direct battle were to take place, its tier would be at its highest, since it would be present in that narrative, and due to SCP-2747's inherent properties, able to erase that narrative. However, SCP-2747 stands at its lowest tier while not present in our viewpoint narrative, being able to be erased, distracted, and otherwise temporarily dealt with. However, while SCP-2747 can be temporarily dealt with, it's constantly "rising narratives" and is extremely difficult to put down permanently. A fight against SCP-2747, assuming it is in a lower narrative, would be determined by time and attrition. It is also important to note that narratives must not be confused with dimensions. A narrative can contain multiple universes and dimensions, while universes and dimensions can only hold lower narratives."

 

[Agnaa]

Bump.

 

[Agnaa]

Bump.

 

[Agnaa]

Bump.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I see no issue with adding that to the profile.

2747 could technically be one of the strongest Tier Varies going off of this.