A Certain Llama Wants In On The Low 1-C club; Pokemon Low 1-C Upgrade for True Form Arceus

[Thelastmlg]

For the perceiving part, i think is important to mention that the scans says they exist due to the perceiving, not that they were created, meaning they are still reliant on arceus mind and thus exist purely inside of it

 

[StrymULTRA]

Isn't that just subjective reality?

A verse existing as just imagination can be R/F like SCP.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Something to add as supporting evidence is that the Legend Plate states that, and I quote: "From all creations, over all creations, does the Original One watch over all."

Wait where is this??

 

[Everything12]

The Legend Plate you receive from completing Arceus' challenge in Legends: Arceus. You can read the Plates items in your bag to see what is engraved on them. It's the story wrote on the Plates in Gen IV read by the Hiker, with parts added based on new Plates being added since then.

 

[theultimate5105]

Wait where is this??

Text of the legend Plate in Pokemon legends Arceus
I literally have my completed save open now and just checked

 

[StrymULTRA]

Wait where is this??

Here.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Y'know, things like this are part of why Kieran left the wiki, double standards. How many other pages and verses are unreliable on this wiki because of double standards? Think about that.

Buddy it’s why I left the wiki. I’m just here for a stint.

 

[Lou_change]

A verse existing as just imagination can be R/F like SCP.

I know but that is because it is explicitly in their imagination in that case it is probably fine here as well just to be clear.

 

[y3p_owo]

Here.

^

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, Saikou seemed to make good points. What is the evidence for Arceus being infinitely superior to everybody else in Pokémon?

Because it isn't needed because of the Tierinf System QnA ya'll need to change in order to reject this

Infinite superiority isn’t needed though. Saikous point completely ignores the note on our FAQs section on transcendence.

Hmm. I think that might cause serious problems for our overall reliability in that case.

What do you think should be done regarding the note, @DontTalkDT ?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Hmm. I think that might cause serious problems for our overall reliability in that case.

What do you think should be done regarding the note, @DontTalkDT ?

Dude, 8 others staff shown to agree.

You really going to ruin this because of a single ex staff not liking this CRT?

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, thank you for helping out, Everything12.

 

[CosmicWreck]

SCP works on an established hierarchy where the relationship of entities and the world is heavily defined.

Making worlds with your mind is cool and all but that's not, by itself evidence that the Original One views the world as fiction. I've seen many tier 2 entities that can make their imagination a reality.

For the perceiving part, i think is important to mention that the scans says they exist due to the perceiving, not that they were created, meaning they are still reliant on arceus mind and thus exist purely inside of it

If you are referring to the creation trio, yes they were literally stated to be created.

Time Pokémon Dialga, Space Pokémon Palkia

It is said that a Pokemon called Arceus was the first to create them...

Though this was clearly Avatar Arceus so it's irrelevant to this discussion anyway.

 

[Antvasima]

Dude, 8 others staff shown to agree.

You really going to ruin this because of a single ex staff not liking this CRT?

I don't particularly care whether or not Arceus gets upgraded, and he probably will be. I am concerned that our overall standards may be unreliable in this area.

 

[CloverDragon03]

This all makes sense to me. The scans are blatant enough as is, both the statements from Masuda and the like and the stuff from Pokemon Legends like the Eternal Battle Reverie

 

[Hasty12345]

Confluctor straight up also said they don't know the verse at all, so I don't see how their opinion can go if they don't know the context of all of this tbf...

Well I hope all the staff and members who agree are fully aware of the verse and all the context. I don’t see how their opinions can go if they don’t know the context of all this tbf….

 

[Lou_change]

yes it was brought up. It spanned for several pages because of the transcendence point, and it was decided to not be required in the end.

I am not looking thru the whole thing but are you referring to @Bernkastel argument because they don't actually mention the Tiering System page disagrees to my knowledge.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I don't particularly care whether or not Arceus gets upgraded, and he probably will be. I am concerned that our overall standards may be unreliable in this area.

They're clear enough in the FAQ page.

If a realm is beyond space and time and shown superiority to 4D space time in nature then it qualifies.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Read through the arguments on the thread, I agree with a solid Low 1-C rating for Arceus.

 

[Thelastmlg]

If you are referring to the creation trio, yes they were literally stated to be created.

well yeah, you can't exist without being created, my point is that the heart perceiving them is why they exist all the time, not just having been created

 

[Lou_change]

I literally pointed out that it disagrees with the "Tiering System" page.

 

[Antvasima]

They're clear enough in the FAQ page.

If a realm is beyond space and time and shown superiority to 4D space time in nature then it qualifies.

I literally pointed out that it disagrees with the "Tiering System" page.

Let's wait for DontTalk please, so we do not make a mistake in either direction.

 

[Lou_change]

Let's wait for DontTalk please, so we do not make a mistake in either direction.

I have stated multiple times I don't know which is right I also actually sourced why infinite transcendence might needed and the discrepancy between the Tiering System and Tiering System FAQ first

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I just want to point out that even if by some chance that infinite transcendence is somehow going to end up as a requirement

Which currently isn’t an accepted requirement

The evidence about Hoopa and the verse being a tiny aspect of Arceus’s existence should, even if not necessary as of now, still prove infinite transcendence. So this upgrade should still be acceptable regardless.

 

[CosmicWreck]

The evidence about Hoopa

Since we know nothing about the relationship between Arceus and Hoopa, save for the fact that Arceus is superior to the latter, this doesn't really support or deny anything.

and the verse being a tiny aspect of Arceus’s existence should, even if not necessary as of now, still prove infinite transcendence. .

It doesn't tbh. This is kind of what people were assuming was the case with Marvel's Firmament and Eternity, but this was later proven false by WOG himself. Being parts of a cosmic being is neither supporting evidence nor an argument against transcendence.

well yeah, you can't exist without being created, my point is that the heart perceiving them is why they exist all the time, not just having been created

This was never stated.

In conjunction, this is probably good enough evidence though.

Yes! The heart was born and it began to perceive (認識) the world!

Space and time were mixed in the newborn heart

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Since we know nothing about the relationship between Arceus and Hoopa, save for the fact that Arceus is superior to the latter, this doesn't really support or deny anything.

But we do. This point has been brought up more than once.

The relationship is that Hoopas infinitely powered rings, even in it’s true form Hoopa Unbound, cannot under any circumstance in any way interact with Arceus’s realm, despite the rings being able to forcibly interact with the Creation Trios dimensions. This is speaking from a dimensional standpoint in showcasing the relationship resulting in Arceus’s realm being superior

combine this with the verse being a small aspect of Arceus’s existence and we get infinite transcendence.

 

[Lou_change]

But we do. This point has been brought up more than once.

The relationship is that Hoopas infinitely powered rings, even in it’s true form Hoopa Unbound, cannot under any circumstance in any way interact with Arceus’s realm, despite the rings being able to forcibly interact with the Creation Trios dimensions. This is speaking from a dimensional standpoint in showcasing the relationship resulting in Arceus’s realm being superior

combine this with the verse being a small aspect of Arceus’s existence and we get infinite transcendence.

Or Arceus's dimension resists and small isn't infinitesimal

 

[CosmicWreck]

But we do. This point has been brought up more than once.

And most people do not address it, because it doesn't really mean anything.

The relationship is that Hoopas infinitely powered rings, even in it’s true form Hoopa Unbound, cannot under any circumstance in any way interact with Arceus’s realm, despite the rings being able to forcibly interact with the Creation Trios dimensions. This is speaking from a dimensional standpoint in showcasing the relationship resulting in Arceus’s realm being superior

It's infinite power doesn't make it any more hax than if it wasn't stated to not have infinite power though, and it's not like it was specifically mentioned that this was the reason that Arceus wasn't summoned from his dimension. Again, it could just be a range problem than AP. Or maybe it could be AP related but only that the realm is, to an unquantifiable degree, superior to the Creation Trio's. Or even a simple problem of incompatibility. Overall way too many assumptions for me to take this theory seriously.

combine this with the verse being a small aspect of Arceus’s existence and we get infinite transcendence.

It really doesn't. Being aspects of him, again, doesn't really mean anything and the Hoopa thing kinds of ignores a wide range of possible reasons.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

And most people do not address it, because it doesn't really mean anything.

It's infinite power doesn't make it any more hax than if it wasn't stated to not have infinite power though, and it's not like it was specifically mentioned that this was the reason that Arceus wasn't summoned from his dimension. Again, it could just be a range problem than AP. Or maybe it could be AP related

The fact that every single one of the Creation Trio outclasses Hoopa in every conceivable way despite its rings being able to access their dimensions by force completely debunks the possibility of it being AP related.

And I’m not seeing the need for why this needs to be stated for why Arceus can’t be summoned when we have showings of why it can’t be, such as Ghris (a man with a facet of Arceus’s power) sealing Hoopas power away.

but only that the realm is, to an unquantifiable degree, superior to the Creation Trio's. Or even a simple problem of incompatibility.

Incompatibility is headcanon when there’s nothing “incompatable” about a being who’s rings can link to dimensions where even the concepts of time and space are non existent.

We have direct citation of infinite power being in use with the rings, we don’t need to assume anything for that. There’s more direct evidence of infinite superiority via this than there is with it being “unquantifiable”.

It really doesn't. Being aspects of him, again, doesn't really mean anything

It absolutely does mean something. A tiny facet of his existence being the 4-D aspect of the cosmology gives strong implications of his true existence being flat out superior in nature to said 4-D space-time, and this by itself under the current citation of the transcendence FAQs is already enough to substantiate Low 1-C

Even without Hoopas role in all this (which doesn’t have a “wide range” of possibilities of why it’s rings can’t access Arceus’s dimension besides the ocams razor that it can’t despite being perfectly capable of accessing the Creation Trios dimensions).

 

[CosmicWreck]

The fact that every single one of the Creation Trio outclasses Hoopa in every conceivable way despite its rings being able to access their dimensions by force completely debunks the possibility of it being AP related.

And I’m not seeing the need for why this needs to be stated for why Arceus can’t be summoned when we have showings of why it can’t be, such as Ghris (a man with a facet of Arceus’s power) sealing Hoopas power away.

All the more reason not to bring it up tbh.

Incompatibility is headcanon when there’s nothing “incompatable” about a being who’s rings can link to dimensions where even the concepts of time and space are non existent.

We have direct citation of infinite power being in use with the rings, we don’t need to assume anything for that. There’s more direct evidence of infinite superiority via this than there is with it being “unquantifiable”.

His infinite power allows him to access these dimensions. That's it. The relation to Arceus is practically non-existent.

It absolutely does mean something. A tiny facet of his existence being the 4-D aspect of the cosmology gives strong implications of his true existence being flat out superior in nature to said 4-D space-time,

Low 2-C is a possibly infinite vast tier. 2-C is a possibly infinite vast tier. 2-B is a possibly infinite vast tier. 2-A is an impossibly infinite vast tier. Having multiversal beings as tiny aspects of yourself can be the case, and be superior to them without suddenly jumping tiers. It's neither evidence for, nor an argument against something.

and this by itself under the current citation of the transcendence FAQs is already enough to substantiate Low 1-C

Please quote where having 4D avatars and/or being superior to the cosmology they embody is at all a requirement enough to substantiate Low 1-C.

Even without Hoopas role in all this (which doesn’t have a “wide range” of possibilities of why it’s rings can’t access Arceus’s dimension besides the ocams razor that it can’t despite being perfectly capable of accessing the Creation Trios dimensions).

Occam's razor goes to the simplest option and there's absolutely nothing in your Hoopa argument that is at all supportive of the fact that Arceus, for a reason that wasn't even given a proper explanation, is suddenly uncountable infinitely greater than the perceived showings.

I do agree the Hoopa role is entirely unrelated to Arceus' Low 1-C tiering.

 

[Arthex]

I m quite confused here, all the proof here is just either arcues being above baseline 2a or a bigger 4d guy, not 5d.

There is abosultly no proof for arcues to be infinitly superior to them in existence. Hoopa's infinitly powered rings don't mean much either.

Being beyond 2 4d concepts dosent make you "5d", I heavily disagree giving a rating just on that.

This thread is forgetting that there is a line of difference between "a bigger 4d" and "5d". Tier 1 is not a joke, and if ppl get it for just being beyond time and space, then I will legit say to change it.

the whole concept of 5d is to be uncountably infinitly superior to 4d in existence, which is a requirement that is not being fulfilled here.

 

[CosmicWreck]

I mean, don't get wrong. I think Low 1-C Arceus is fine. I just find the Hoopa argument to be particularly irrelevant.

 

[Delta333]

Yea, Hoopa stuff is irrelevant, if anything the only legitimate argument could be him being bigger than 2-A thus uncountable infinite superior to it, as you can't be countable infinite bigger than a real coordinate space at all which is dumb since in fiction stuffs like High 3-A scaling chain and 2-A scaling chain exist

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

All the more reason not to bring it up tbh.

Or it means it being AP related is wrong and is not a counter argument. We are speaking about comparisons in dimensionality, not tiers (when it’s beyond obvious Hoopas tier is fodder compared to the god tiers).

His infinite power allows him to access these dimensions. That's it. The relation to Arceus is practically non-existent.

…And that in itself is the point. His infinitely powered rings can interact with the creation trios dimensions by force. But they can’t with Arceus’s, implying infinite superiority for the latters realm.

Low 2-C is a possibly infinite vast tier. 2-C is a possibly infinite vast tier. 2-B is a possibly infinite vast tier. 2-A is an impossibly infinite vast tier. Having multiversal beings as tiny aspects of yourself can be the case, and be superior to them without suddenly jumping tiers. It's neither evidence for, nor an argument against something.

Except we aren’t simply speaking about regular 2-A powered beings here, we are speaking about abstract beings who are 2-A concepts. Those 2-A concepts being small aspects of Arceus’s true existence.

Please quote where having 4D avatars and/or being superior to the cosmology they embody is at all a requirement enough to substantiate Low 1-C.

Strym already quoted this part of the standards several times in this thread. Being superior to 4-D space-time in nature is enough to be granted Low 1-C, that has been the whole point of contention here.

Occam's razor goes to the simplest option and there's absolutely nothing in your Hoopa argument that is at all supportive of the fact that Arceus, for a reason that wasn't even given a proper explanation, is suddenly uncountable infinitely greater than the perceived showings.

Besides Hoopas infinitely powered rings failing miserably against what is considered only a tiny facet of Arceus’s power at best, despite having explicit proof of forcibly interacting with 4-D dimensions. The Creation Trios dimensions.

This is much more supported than any other “possibility” as to why the rings can’t interact with Arceus’s realm.

I m quite confused here, all the proof here is just either arcues being above baseline 2a or a bigger 4d guy, not 5d.

Already debunked. There’s no such thing as “bigger 4-D”, being above 4-D means you have to be at least 5-D at a minimum.

There is abosultly no proof for arcues to be infinitly superior to them in existence. Hoopa's infinitly powered rings don't mean much either.

Repeating “don’t mean much” is not a counter argument and it’s been explained more than once why it does. Interacting with 4-D dimensions by force but not with another implies the latter is superior to the former

Being beyond 2 4d concepts dosent make you "5d", I heavily disagree giving a rating just on that.

*3 concepts

And once again, the argument isn’t to give Low 1-C off “just” this. Hoopas part in this is supporting evidence, not the main justification.

the whole concept of 5d is to be uncountably infinitly superior to 4d in existence, which is a requirement that is not being fulfilled here.

It’s not a requirement and Archie Sonic and the chaos force getting Low 1-C without needing to fulfill this requirement is a perfect example of why it’s not.

Hence why people have been saying to either change the standards and downgrade Archie, or shut up about this requirement and grant the upgrade here.

 

[Delta333]

It’s not a requirement and Archie Sonic and the chaos force getting Low 1-C without needing to fulfill this requirement is a perfect example of why it’s not.

It's a requirement...I already told you that Archie Sonic is Low 1-C because according to our standard transcending a 2-A is uncountable infinite superior to it (the reason can be found above, as Ultima said it numerous times both in forum and discord).

 

[Arthex]

Already debunked. There’s no such thing as “bigger 4-D”, being above 4-D means you have to be at least 5-D at a minimum.

cough cough.
Cool, then let's upgrade DBH and DND to low 1c aswell, I mean above baseline 2a size/range-requirment doesn't exist at all, does it?

Repeating “don’t mean much” is not a counter argument and it’s been explained more than once why it does. Interacting with 4-D dimensions by force but not with another implies the latter is superior to the former

*3 concepts

It does not when above baseline 2a range is infact a thing, there is a staff thread about this going on and there is infact, a difference between 5d range and above baseline 2a range.

And once again, the argument isn’t to give Low 1-C off “just” this. Hoopas part in this is supporting evidence, not the main justification.

It’s not a requirement and Archie Sonic and the chaos force getting Low 1-C without needing to fulfill this requirement is a perfect example of why it’s not.

Hence why people have been saying to either change the standards and downgrade Archie, or shut up about this requirement and grant the upgrade here.

I don't know much about that mouse and neither do I want to, but if it is the sole reason for him having low 1c. then might as well downgrade him.

I'm sorry but if you don't need to be uncountably infinitly superior to a 4d being to be 5d, then i can get dbh to be 1b, this logic is not only vague but weird.

You need to proof that Arcues's existence is infact superior to the dimensions of time and space by a uncountably infinite times, otherwise its just a bigger 2a.

 

[CosmicWreck]

Or it means it being AP related is wrong and is not a counter argument. We are speaking about comparisons in dimensionality, not tiers (when it’s beyond obvious Hoopas tier is fodder compared to the god tiers).

Dimensionality and tiers are directly linked and you're arguing about the AP of Arceus, Hoopas tier is irrelevant, though you haven't provided evidence for either.

…And that in itself is the point. His infinitely powered rings can interact with the creation trios dimensions by force. But they can’t with Arceus’s, implying infinite superiority for the latters realm.

You're just continuing to make assumptions that were never implied in the texts.

Except we aren’t simply speaking about regular 2-A powered beings here, we are speaking about abstract beings who are 2-A concepts. Those 2-A concepts being small aspects of Arceus’s true existence.

And conceptual existences matter to Arceus's AP how? Don't answer that. It clearly doesn't. This argument is not only irrelevant, but also false, considering, iirc, in Pokemon HGSS it was stated the Original Spirit created space-time before it created the creation trio.

Strym already quoted this part of the standards several times in this thread. Being superior to 4-D space-time in nature is enough to be granted Low 1-C, that has been the whole point of contention here.

Transcending in such a way and indicating superiority is different that just being an unquantifiable degree of superiority.

Besides Hoopas infinitely powered rings failing miserably against what is considered only a tiny facet of Arceus’s power at best, despite having explicit proof of forcibly interacting with 4-D dimensions. The Creation Trios dimensions.

Yes, so Arceus is stronger than the Hoopa rings. You realize that's literally the only thing I can gleam from that, since infinite power or not, it's just an interdimensional range feat.

This is much more supported than any other “possibility” as to why the rings can’t interact with Arceus’s realm.

They are all supported by the same degree, since the reasons were never described or even implied tbh.

Already debunked. There’s no such thing as “bigger 4-D”, being above 4-D means you have to be at least 5-D at a minimum.

That is blatantly untrue. You guys do realize low 2-C characters significantly affect space-time continuums? Which are 4-D? And there can be bigger and smaller universes (pocket dimensions)? Hell, even in the anime the Pokemon cosmology have multiverse of different sizes. Or that there are also many worlds within worlds in fiction?

Or how about real depiction of higher dimensional universes where their extensions are planck length?

Hell 2-C to 2-A are literally bigger 4D. I legit do not understand how you came to such a blatantly wrong conclusion. There is a huge gap between countable infinity and uncountably infinity. You can't just jump to higher tiers based on arbitrary stuff like that.

Repeating “don’t mean much” is not a counter argument and it’s been explained more than once why it does. Interacting with 4-D dimensions by force but not with another implies the latter is superior to the former

It was never stated, and the implication is basically decided based on headcanon. I don't agree.

*3 concepts

And once again, the argument isn’t to give Low 1-C off “just” this. Hoopas part in this is supporting evidence, not the main justification.

A weak justification that should be dropped entirely.

It’s not a requirement and Archie Sonic and the chaos force getting Low 1-C without needing to fulfill this requirement is a perfect example of why it’s not.

I don't know about Archie Sonic. I'm dealing with this franchise now, thanks.

Hence why people have been saying to either change the standards and downgrade Archie, or shut up about this requirement and grant the upgrade here.

I literally never even brought Archie up what is wrong with you. You need to chill.

 

[Zencha9]

gang bangers

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

And conceptual existences matter to Arceus's AP how? Don't answer that. It clearly doesn't. This argument is not only irrelevant, but also false, considering, iirc, in Pokemon HGSS it was stated the Original Spirit created space-time before it created the creation trio.

Not responding to everything else. Just this bit.
You don’t remember correctly. This is never said. In none of the games. Literally every game says that Dia/Pal created the spacetime continuum, bar none, from Diamond and Pearl to Legends Arceus. Arceus is always the delegator, pawning it off on his aspects.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Anyway, the justification for either end (i.e just "Low Complex Multiverse level" or "At least Multiverse level, likely Multiverse level+, possibly Low Complex Multiverse level) should be this:

(Is the origin of the creation of everything in Pokémon, including the realms of The Creation Trio, including Giratina's which lacks both time and directions, and Palkia's which has domain over both the spatial dimensions and the directions, with the Creation Trio members also being their own realms themselves. Arceus is the "God who transcends everything" whose realm is beyond both time and space and that treats the Pokémon reality, which is made of countless to likely infinite universes, as a mere aspect of its true being, as also showcased from its consciousness extending across both space and time and Hoopa being able to forcefully summon the Creation Trio out of their realms with the "infinite power" of its rings, but being unable to do the same with Arceus', as it's the only one who could seal said power)

You think is good?

It needs to be specific and concise and say that the places Arceus embodies and created are spatial dimensions that transcend the space-time of the 4D continuum