A Bunch of Big Boi feats for Dr. Doom-Part 2

[Eseseso]

So after my first thread on this didn't go well, I did some "soul-searching", made a much better and less chaotic list of Doom's 2-A feats with prep-time/technology, magic, and absorption, and listed them here, and this time in a much nicer way than last time (I do apologize for how my last thread turned out because of my messiness).

I do have some potential Low 1-C feats, but I'll list those in another thread after this is done, so this is ONLY FOR 2-A Doom with magic, prep/technology, and absorption.




2-A Prep time/Technology feats and durability:

• Doom fighting the 4 Mad Celestials all at once like a boss for 27 minutes and surviving: FF Vol. 1 #14
  • If Galactus is a 2-A while well-fed for killing one of these things, then it should absolutely scale to Doom's durability for surviving 4 of them hitting him at once.
  • This is only for Durability, not AP
• in Fantastic Four #569, it is shown that while Dr. Doom was training for revenge on the Marquis of Death, he flat-out killed a Watcher to protect his secrets. And it's pretty clear that Doom was the killer, since he says that he protected his secrets from "prying eyes" while showing the dead Watcher.
  • This is probably the most solid 2-A prep-time feat for Doom.
  • One could argue that Doom may have used magic since he talked about "mastering the black arts", but since this was offscreen it is safer to just consider this a prep-time feat.
  • The fact that Reed Richards confirms the Watcher was killed by an "off the rails power source" only further supports that this was a power feat, NOT a hax feat, and as a bonus implies that when Doom did this, he was above Galactus to some extent, as Reed has measured Galactus's power, such as when (according to Dark Jean Grey's vs battles page), he noted that she rivaled Galactus
  • In that same issue, Reed Richards implied that at that point he could've killed Clyde Wyncham, who earlier fought and notably weakened the Marquis of Death (even though he lost), who was far above Galactus.
• While being charged with all of the world's Vibranium, stated it to be above the power of the Cosmic Cube. (Doomwar #1)
  • I know Ant disagreed with scaling it to the Cosmic Cube but IMO think it is legitimate, especially since Doom's usage of it is considered a 2-A by this wiki, and it's not like Marvel hasn't had 2-A beings not wipe out everyone in the region due to plot armor before.
  • Also, T'challa here talks about how Doom could wipe out Colossus with but a piece of Vibranium, and while it obviously scales FAR above Colossus already, it shows that Doom is indeed portrayed as a vastly powerful God by the story yet didn't wipe everyone out even though he could, so the argument that "2-A Doom would've killed everyone" kinda falls flat.
  • And even though I keep hearing about downgrades for the Cosmic Cube (or varying power levels), the one Doom used was later used against him in the same story to one-shot Doom who had the powers of the well-fed Galactus (who is definitely a 2-A)
• From Fantastic Four #116, Doom tanks multiple direct blasts from the Over-Mind, who in Quasar #16 was shown to be comparable to The Stranger.
  • While Doom only hurt the Over Mind with hax and reflecting his attacks (so this is NOT an AP feat), during the fight where he took 2 head-on blasts and was just knocked out and exhausted, none of the F4 seemed to be directly hit by his blasts, so we can't just say that "Oh, the F4 tanked his attacks too so it doesn't count", since that's clearly not the case.
  • And yes this is with prep-time, since Doom clearly prepared a bunch of items before the fight (and kinda stole some of the ideas from the Fantastic Four's weapons), so this is definitely a prep-time durability feat
• Another durability only feat is how Doom's shield protected him and Strange from Mephisto's attacks in Hell, and keep in mind that not only is Hell-amped Mephisto already a 2-A but he stomped Dr. Strange.
• A 2-A AP and durability feat with prep-time is how in Fantastic Four: World's Greatest Comic Magazine #6, Doom with heavily implied prep-time not only tanks a blast from Uatu with little to no damage (keep in mind he was not holding the Cosmic Cube when he was blasted), but then proceeds to stagger Uatu with a blast that knocks the Cosmic Cube out of Uatu's hand and back into Doom's own hand.
• According to the intelligence section on his VS battles page, he created his own Cosmic Cube once.

2-A Absorption feats:

• There are his iconic feats of absorbing the power of a Well-Fed Galactus, a Cosmic Cube, and Aron the Watcher
• He also absorbs the power of Franklin Richards in Heroes Reborn: The Return #4
• He absorbs the power of Scarlet Witch in Avengers: Children's Crusade #7 and #8, and this is the power of House of M Scarlet Witch since Doom stated it to be above the Cosmic Cube Beyonder (as already stated in House of M Scarlet Witch's profile)

So, with all that, this time I'm far more confident in "normal" Doctor Doom being "up to 2-A" with magic, preparation and technology, and absorption, and thus his key should be edited to include this "up to 2-A" status.

Any Low 1-C feats will be discussed in a thread following the verdict on this one.

And yes I know Doom's absorption technically goes up to Low 1-A, but this is for "normal" Doom outside of the Secret Wars. Same with his prep, because yes it technically goes up to Low 1-A since he was the one who made the bomb that killed the Beyonders, this is for stuff outside of the Secret Wars (both 1984 and 2015).


Edit: Since it seems like Mephisto wasn't in Hell when Infamous Iron Man and Doctor Strange fought and damaged him, it isn't a potential 2-A feat, so excluding scaling to Scarlet Witch and Doctor Strange there are no 2-A magic feats for Doom and thus I have removed it for now, although I might have found a few other possible feats so this might change again in the future.


Edit #2: Just to clear things up, I will add a list of non-feats that aren't valid in case people try to use them to make Doom a 2-A:

1. Trapping Phoenix Force Jean Grey in an illusion (Excalibur #37): It's an excellent feat for Doom in terms of cunning...but it's not an AP feat in any way. It's just a mind-messing machine of Doom's.

2. Fighting Mephisto in Hell: The only possible way Doom could've done this is with magic, and while it is implied it is not confirmed and the narrative isn't enough to know for sure, especially since asides from that sweet armor Doom doesn't use any other magic.

3. Scarlet Witch scaling: SW is incredibly inconsistent.

4. Hurting a moderately to well-fed Galactus with subatomic beams: Durability Negation apparently works even on 2-A beings.

5. Tanking an Infinity Gauntlet Blast: Other avengers tanked it, so Thanos was probably just messing around.

6. Fighting Mephisto as Infamous Iron Man: IIRC they weren't in Hell, so not a 2-A feat.

7. Doom managing to defeat Galactus via prep by going back in time over and over again until he wins is most likely against a starving Galactus.


Edit #3: When this thread stops being on hold, if one more person asks me about Doom's Low 1-C feats despite me repeatedly stating that they'll be discussed in a future thread, I just might lose it.

 

[ObberGobb]

I agree. If Doctor Strange gets "2-A, possibly Low 1-C" with prep, I think Doom definitely should too.

 

[Confluctor]

Doom shouldn't even get 2-A, it should be straight up Low 1-C with prep and absorption. Look at what he did to Nightmare, for example.

And on that note, I am out. I will let you wall of text people deal with it

 

[ObberGobb]

Maybe something like "High 6-C, 4-B to 2-A with prep, up to Low 1-C with absorption". And if this goes through, then I think the Low 1-C on Doctor Strange's profile should remove the "possibly", as he is pretty consistently shown to be superior to Doom.

Also a good thing that supports this is that Iron Man has also shown 2-A and Low 1-C feats with prep, and Doom is consistently stated to be more intelligent, so naturally he should be at least comparable to Tony with prep. This doesn't need to go on the justification, but I do think its decent supporting evidence.

 

[Eseseso]

1. Me and some people I talked to agreed that any Low 1-C feats (which there are) should be discussed in another thread AFTER this one.

2. The new "normal Doom" key would look like this:

"High 6-C, 4-B up to 2-A with magic, preparation and technology, and absorption"

That is, for now until the next thread which will discuss Low 1-C stuff

 

[The_Impress]

Maybe something like "High 6-C, 4-B to 2-A with prep, up to Low 1-C with absorption". And if this goes through, then I think the Low 1-C on Doctor Strange's profile should remove the "possibly", as he is pretty consistently shown to be superior to Doom.

...no what? Doom's Absorption is not replicable by Strange in the SLIGHTEST, and it's the strongest thing a Marvel multiverse human possesses. Nothing compares, and you can see every single Secret Wars as proof.

Also a good thing that supports this is that Iron Man has also shown 2-A and Low 1-C feats with prep, and Doom is consistently stated to be more intelligent, so naturally he should be at least comparable to Tony with prep. This doesn't need to go on the justification, but I do think its decent supporting evidence.

For the record Stark's Low 1-C comes from him collaborating with Pym, having years of prep, and still making just the equivalent of a gun. Low 1-C claimed for Doom is nowhere comparable.

 

[The_Impress]

And for the record, 2-A proposals are fine, Low 1-A/Low 1-C is via Absorption, which are notably far more busted than Doom's regular arsenal.

 

[Eseseso]

...no what? Doom's Absorption is not replicable by Strange in the SLIGHTEST, and it's the strongest thing a Marvel multiverse human possesses. Nothing compares, and you can see every single Secret Wars as proof.

For the record Stark's Low 1-C comes from him collaborating with Pym, having years of prep, and still making just the equivalent of a gun. Low 1-C claimed for Doom is nowhere comparable.

All of this I agree with

And for the record, 2-A proposals are fine, Low 1-A/Low 1-C is via Absorption, which are notably far more busted than Doom's regular arsenal.

Well I was hoping to split between his "normal" absorption and his Secret Wars absorption (both of them), since like with prep his absorption's maximum is far more consistent at 2-A (and Low 1-C but that's for another thread)

 

[The_Impress]

No lol, it's consistent with Low 1-C/Low 1-A. Not 2-A.

 

[Eficiente]

Doom fighting the 4 Mad Celestials all at once like a boss for 27 minutes and surviving: FF Vol. 1 #14

• If Galactus is a 2-A while well-fed for killing one of these things, then it should absolutely scale to Doom's durability for surviving 4 of them hitting him at once.

That "fighting" is only shown as he taking those blasts, it's not ap. Also Celestials are on their way to be downgraded.

• in Fantastic Four #569, it is shown that while Dr. Doom was training for revenge on the Marquis of Death, he flat-out killed a Watcher to protect his secrets. And it's pretty clear that Doom was the killer, since he says that he protected his secrets from "prying eyes" while showing the dead Watcher.
  • This is probably the most solid 2-A prep-time feat for Doom.
  • One could argue that Doom may have used magic since he talked about "mastering the black arts", but since this was offscreen it is safer to just consider this a prep-time feat.

Given how messed up are the biology of his mouth and stomach are, and how it wasn't facing Doom, it likely was due to hax (Most likely Biological Manip or some disease), with Doom not even having a reason to be there while that was happening to the Watcher.

• While being charged with all of the world's Vibranium, stated it to be above the power of the Cosmic Cube. (Doomwar #1)
  • I know Ant disagreed with scaling it to the Cosmic Cube but IMO think it is legitimate, especially since Doom's usage of it is considered a 2-A by this wiki, and it's not like Marvel hasn't had 2-A beings not wipe out everyone in the region due to plot armor before.
  • Also, T'challa here talks about how Doom could wipe out Colossus with but a piece of Vibranium, and while it obviously scales FAR above Colossus already, it shows that Doom is indeed portrayed as a vastly powerful God by the story yet didn't wipe everyone out even though he could, so the argument that "2-A Doom would've killed everyone" kinda falls flat.

He says there that it's above the time he had the cube, so I agree.......unless we may downgrade the cubes to each with its own feats, in which case Doom with the cube would be 3-A and so would be this Doom.

• In Fantastic Four #7, Dr Doom has dozens (at least) of singularity disruptors (or as he calls them, Big Bang Cannons) attack and damage a starving Galactus (who is a 4-B). While they don't take him down they do seem to be damaging him.
  • And this is NOT a starving Galactus, as he said earlier in the comic that it wasn't hunger that made him attack Earth but instead just an intense natural desire to get back the fraction of his Power Cosmic that Doom stole
  • Not totally sure if this is dura-negation or not, or how we go about durability negation for 2-A abstracts like Galactus (who at worst was moderately-fed here)

Dude, don't say "this is a starving Galactus.....this is NOT a starving Galactus", just the former with proof.

It's not a good AP feat due to the same reason I said last time, you can quote it.

• From Fantastic Four #116, Doom tanks multiple direct blasts from the Over-Mind, who in Quasar #16 was shown to be comparable to The Stranger.
  • While Doom only hurt the Over Mind with hax and reflecting his attacks (so this is NOT an AP feat), during the fight where he took 2 head-on blasts and was just knocked out and exhausted, none of the F4 seemed to be directly hit by his blasts, so we can't just say that "Oh, the F4 tanked his attacks too so it doesn't count", since that's clearly not the case.
  • And yes this is with prep-time, since Doom clearly prepared a bunch of items before the fight (and kinda stole some of the ideas from the Fantastic Four's weapons), so this is definitely a prep-time durability feat

"Oh, the F4 tanked his attacks too so it doesn't count" is a straw man. The real reason those attacks don't matter is because they're Mind Manip, as the guy and Doom say, hax can come in the form of attacks to mess up foes. It makes no sense for this being to want to annihilate Doom yet aim for mindhax, hence the "damaging" part of the move isn't notable.

• A 2-A AP and durability feat with prep-time is how in Fantastic Four: World's Greatest Comic Magazine #6, Doom with heavily implied prep-time not only tanks a blast from Uatu with little to no damage (keep in mind he was not holding the Cosmic Cube when he was blasted), but then proceeds to stagger Uatu with a blast that knocks the Cosmic Cube out of Uatu's hand and back into Doom's own hand.

I say to this the same I said before, you can link it.

• A minor one, but he tanked a blow from an angered and well-fed Galactus. If this one isn't accepted I'd understand, but it is something to note.

Well, yes, it's a slap, and while he was lecturing him, why lecture a dead man.

• Has his own Ultimate Nullifier (Doctor Doom #7) that he gave to one of his closest followers (IIRC it's the woman who Doom wanted to later marry before she cheated on him with Human Torch), and I know for sure that it's already one of Reed Richard's 2-A prep-time feats, so Doom should be no different.

He bought it from Marty McFly. We could list this in his profile but it would be like doing so on every comicbook character who ever had it.

I also didn't know Victorious was the woman he married, I remember the mediocre Marvel youtube channel having it as a mystery and then I never kept up. It makes no sense as he saw her as her daughter in that series.

2-A Magic feats for AP and durability:

• Dr. Doom and Strange together fighting and hurting Mephisto in Hell with magic (first 2 panels): Infamous Iron ManVol. 1 #12
  • There is no reason for Infamous Iron Man's Magic to not scale to normal Dr. Doom, as they are the exact same person and the different armor didn't do anything to affect Doom's magic.
  • If anything it might have been slightly weaker as Infamous Iron Man since Doom's armor has been stated to openly prepare magic spells and help him cast magic IIRC. Not a big difference though.

Did I talk about this feat and Mephisto in Hell last time? If so I say the same.

• Doom humiliating Mephisto in Hell: Doctor Doom #3
  • Now I know that @Eficiente thinks that Mephisto was just messing around with him, but looking back at the fight it seems a lot more like Mephisto initially WAS screwing around with Doom up until he showed him Valeria (like Eficiente said), but after that is when Mephisto actually got serious and fought evenly with Doom until Lady Death stepped in and stopped the fight. That's why he went from stomping a Mephisto who wasn't serious to being even with a serious Mephisto who was aiming to kill.

I mean, you can aim to kill a cockroach while purposely doing badly and pretending to move away backwards if it comes near you/other example of playing with food like that for fun. This is base Doom. Base. Fighting him while at one point he nailed him a bone that was around, all right after the illusion Mephy had on Doom to f*ck with him went off, he clearly is still f*cking with him. You should be able to see this, and none of that is via magic.

• He has been repeatedly stated/portrayed to be comparable to the likes of Doctor Strange, who goes up to 2-A, and Dr. Strange not only fears him but admits Doom knows shit that even he doesn't.

This is meaningless.

• In Avengers of the Supernatural #5, Doom easily absorbs the 2-A Nightmare

This isn't due to power, it's because Nightmare is a weiiird being that falls apart when being real, w/o anyone messing with him, let alone absorbing his power, Nightmare becomes real before being absorbed as your scan shows. He was weakened, and then when his power was in Doom the power itself wasn't weakened.

• There are his iconic feats of absorbing the power of a Well-Fed Galactus, a Cosmic Cube, and Aron the Watcher

Sure for that.

• He also absorbs the power of Franklin Richards in Heroes Reborn: The Return #4

He only absorbs little bits of it, and was ready to harness it all via prep. It's true that he can harness it, but not absorb it himself.

 

[Eseseso]

That "fighting" is only shown as he taking those blasts, it's not ap. Also Celestials are on their way to be downgraded.

That's why it would be only for durability (could've sworn I mentioned that above, my bad), and even if Celestials will be downgraded in the future, until then it is a 2-A durability feat for Doom. When the downgrades actually happen then we can talk.

Given how messed up are the biology of his mouth and stomach are, and how it wasn't facing Doom, it likely was due to hax (Most likely Biological Manip or some disease), with Doom not even having a reason to be there while that was happening to the Watcher.

Absolutely zero proof of hax being used, and Doom openly says that he was "protecting his secrets from prying eyes", so that shows that he killed the Watcher to prevent him from telling anyone about his plans for revenge on the Marquis.

It's basically stated he killed the Watcher himself, and did so with "the black arts", whatever the **** those are, but since it's not confirmed whether "the black arts" is magic or not, it's best to just make it a prep-time feat.

He says there that it's above the time he had the cube, so I agree.......unless we may downgrade the cubes to each with its own feats, in which case Doom with the cube would be 3-A and so would be this Doom.

We'll cross that bridge when the downgrades actually happen. Until then, it's 2-A for Doom.

Dude, don't say "this is a starving Galactus.....this is NOT a starving Galactus", just the former with proof.

It's not a good AP feat due to the same reason I said last time, you can quote it.

What I meant was that Galactus openly said that he wasn't hungry for planets, he just wanted to reclaim the fraction of his power that Doom stole.

But you're probably right that it isn't an AP feat, even though I'm not sure if the same rules for normal durability negation apply to 2-A abstracts like a moderately or well fed Galactus.

"Oh, the F4 tanked his attacks too so it doesn't count" is a straw man. The real reason those attacks don't matter is because they're Mind Manip, as the guy and Doom say, hax can come in the form of attacks to mess up foes. It makes no sense for this being to want to annihilate Doom yet aim for mindhax, hence the "damaging" part of the move isn't notable.

I'm not sure, the Over-mind was comparable in blast power to the Stranger and Doom was the only one who was hit by his blasts, so none of the other F4 people were actually hit by it.

I say to this the same I said before, you can link it.

I heavily disagree with your previous statement. Why the hell would Uatu NOT be completely serious, especially since he knows the power of the Cosmic Cube that Doom is using.

There is NOTHING suggesting that he is holding back.

Well, yes, it's a slap, and while he was lecturing him, why lecture a dead man.

Excellent point, that's why I wasn't too sold on it.

He bought it from Marty McFly. We could list this in his profile but it would be like doing so on every comicbook character who ever had it.

1. Who exactly has owned the Ultimate Nullifier other than Reed and Doom?
2. Jesus, who in the Marvel Universe made so many Nullifiers if f*cking Black market dealers are selling 'em? It's like selling nuke guns in the US to every rich guy!

I also didn't know Victorious was the woman he married, I remember the mediocre Marvel youtube channel having it as a mystery and then I never kept up. It makes no sense as he saw her as her daughter in that series.

He WAS going to marry her, until she slept with Johnny Torch (dick move on Johnny's part), which she confessed right before they were going to say their vows (yeah, she probably should've chosen a better time).
Doom didn't love her, but he did view her as a loyal "friend" and thought a marriage would stabilize Latveria while he went away, so he was understandably PISSED, especially since he'd invited the Fantastic 4 to his wedding.
He basically used a device so that Human Torch could never turn his flames off (and they were basically out of control in terms of power and heat), and told his now ex-fiance that he never wanted to see her face again, so now she serves him as a bodyguard but always has a mask of Doom on, thus never showing her face.

Did I talk about this feat and Mephisto in Hell last time? If so I say the same.

I don't really remember.

I mean, you can aim to kill a cockroach while purposely doing badly and pretending to move away backwards if it comes near you/other example of playing with food like that for fun. This is base Doom. Base. Fighting him while at one point he nailed him a bone that was around, all right after the illusion Mephy had on Doom to f*ck with him went off, he clearly is still f*cking with him. You should be able to see this, and none of that is via magic.

I'll agree to disagree, since it was implied he was using magic and I do think Mephisto got serious after the illusion had stopped, but like I said I'll agree to disagree.

This is meaningless.

Fair

This isn't due to power, it's because Nightmare is a weiiird being that falls apart when being real, w/o anyone messing with him, let alone absorbing his power, Nightmare becomes real before being absorbed as your scan shows. He was weakened, and then when his power was in Doom the power itself wasn't weakened.

OK

He only absorbs little bits of it, and was ready to harness it all via prep. It's true that he can harness it, but not absorb it himself.

Still, the fact that his armor could eventually harness all of it without exploding shows that his absorption should at least be comparable to Franklin Richards

 

[Eseseso]

No lol, it's consistent with Low 1-C/Low 1-A. Not 2-A.

Yes, but on Discord we agreed to save the Low 1-C stuff for another thread.

 

[Eseseso]

He says there that it's above the time he had the cube, so I agree.......unless we may downgrade the cubes to each with its own feats, in which case Doom with the cube would be 3-A and so would be this Doom.

About that, the thing is when Doom had the cube, that same cosmic cube was used by Reed Richards to one-shot a Dr Doom with the powers of Well-fed Galactus, who is definitely a 2-A, so assuming that Cosmic Cubes in the future will vary from 3-A to 2-A, Doom's Cosmic Cube will probably be on the 2-A end.

 

[Eficiente]

Ok for that bit then.

 

[Eseseso]

Anyone else?

 

[Eseseso]

And for the 2 Watcher feats (which are probably Doom's most solid 2-A prep time feats):

1. There is zero proof that he used non-AP hax to kill the Watcher while preparing to fight the Marquis of Death.

2. When he tanked a blast from the Watcher with no damage, he openly said that he'd prepared his armor with alloys which is why it did nothing (since the Cosmic Cube is clearly not in his hand when he takes the blast), and thus it was also probably prep-time that allowed a blast from his armor to stagger the Watcher and knock the Cosmic Cube out of his hand.

Now, the fact that he still used the Cube to banish the Watcher right after somewhat implies that Doom knew that it'd be a long and hard fight, but at the very least Doom should be comparable to Uatu thanks to that feat alone.

And as I said before, why in God's name would Uatu not take Doom seriously when Doom is literally about to wield the power of the Cosmic Cube, a threat which via scaling is well above people like Uatu (since the CC's 2-A version is >> Celestials who are = with Uatu). I find it HIGHLY unlikely Uatu wouldn't be serious against that kind of threat.

Also, sorry for not including this earlier, but shouldn't the fact that Dr. Doom literally created his own Cosmic Cube (as stated in the intelligence section on his VS battles page) be considered a 2-A prep time feat?

 

[Eseseso]

Minor B U M P

 

[Eficiente]

Well, can this wait after those 4-A / 3-C Marvel revisions get done?

 

[Eseseso]

Well, can this wait after those 4-A / 3-C Marvel revisions get done?

Sure!

Btw, if/when those pass (which I'm in favor of), that'll upgrade current Doom's prep, technology, and Doombots to a 4-A, right?

 

[Eficiente]

Yes.

 

[Eseseso]

Yes.

I see!

I guess we can deem this thread postponed for the time being, which honestly works for me since I may have found some more feats.

 

[Eseseso]

Okay, now that the 3-C Herald thread is basically done, I think this can be resumed!

Btw, I edited the original post a little, such as removing the "magic" section and adding a bit of bonus stuff for "preparation/technology", like justifications for Doom killing that Watcher with prep.

 

[Eseseso]

B U M P

 

[The_Impress]

What is left to discuss? Remind me rq

 

[Eseseso]

What is left to discuss? Remind me rq

Well, Eficiente agreed on some feats but disagreed on others (and I disagreed with some of his disagreements), but I agreed with his request to put the thread on hold until the 3-C herald thread is finished.

I took this time to edit the OP, such as removing the 2-A magic stuff since I realized that a crucial feat of him using magic to fight Mephisto did NOT take place in Hell, making it not a 2-A feat, and the actual fight between Doom and Mephisto in Hell is something that Eficiente disagrees with, so even though I lean in favor of it being a serious Hell-amped Mephisto with magic (since Mephisto took the 2nd half of the fight serious and Doom seemingly using magic to create that AWESOME looking armor heavily implies magic usage to amp his physicality, as noted by other sites), I decided to drop it and by extension all discussion of 2-A magic Doom for the forseeable future, since apparently scaling to Scarlet Witch and Dr. Strange isn't enough to be 2-A on its own either.

Also, I added reasoning in the OP for why his killing of a Watcher in that comic series with the Mqatquis of Deagth was a legitimate 2-A prep time feat, and also added that Reed Richards confirms the Watcher was killed by an "off the rails power source" only further supports that this was a power feat, NOT a hax feat, and as a bonus implies that when Doom did this, he was above Galactus to some extent, as Reed has measured Galactus's power, such as when (according to Dark Jean Grey's vs battles page), he noted that she rivaled Galactus.

Also, I stand firm by my statement of Doom effortlessly tanking a blast from Uatu thanks to updating his armor's alloys (so basically tech/preparation durability), before staggering him with a blast as to knock the Cosmic Cube out of his hand.

On the bright side, there were some points that Efi and I agreed on, such as the following:

1. Dr. Doom's absorption being a 2-A, due to him absorbing the energies of a Watcher, a Well-Fed Galactus, House of M Scarlet Witch (which Doom stated was above the power of the post-retcon beyonder [as already stated on Scarlet Witch's vs battles entry for House of M]), a Cosmic Cube (which even after the rumored downgrade of the Cosmic Cubes I keep hearing about will STILL be a 2-A since in that story it was used to one-shot Dr. Doom with Well-Fed Galactus's powers), and Franklin Richards.

2. IIRC we agreed that until the Celestials are downgraded from 2-A, Doom tanking concentrated blasts from 4 of them at once is a 2-A prep/tech durability feat.

3. Doom absorbing all the world's vibranium is a 2-A prep feat since he said it was above his usage of the Cosmic Cube, which as already stated was powerful enough in that story to one-shot a Doom with the power of Well-Fed Galactus

4. Has his own Ultimate Nullifier (Doctor Doom #7) that he gave to one of his closest followers (IIRC it's the woman who Doom wanted to later marry before she cheated on him with Human Torch), and I know for sure that it's already one of Reed Richard's 2-A prep-time feats, so Doom should be no different.

 

[The_Impress]

4. Has his own Ultimate Nullifier (Doctor Doom #7) that he gave to one of his closest followers (IIRC it's the woman who Doom wanted to later marry before she cheated on him with Human Torch), and I know for sure that it's already one of Reed Richard's 2-A prep-time feats, so Doom should be no different.

this is the one I disagree with, idk why the **** we even list the Nullifier as AP justification, it has nothing to do with it, Reed's Nullifier is featless

 

[Eseseso]

this is the one I disagree with, idk why the **** we even list the Nullifier as AP justification, it has nothing to do with it, Reed's Nullifier is featless

Ok, then just unlock Reed's page and remove it and then I'll drop this point.

 

[The_Impress]

In general Reed’s consistently >>>> Doom in intelligence and mental fortitude, so Reed’s feats with the Nullifier won’t downscale to Doom.

 

[Eseseso]

In general Reed’s consistently >>>> Doom in intelligence and mental fortitude, so Reed’s feats with the Nullifier won’t downscale to Doom.

1. I wouldn't say >>>>. It's usually shown as Reed's intelligence being >= Doom's, with Reed having the edge mostly due to his focus on cosmic science not being interrupted by needing to study magic like Doom. Also Reed has all day to study science, while Doom has to rule an entire country.

And sometimes it seems like they're equal (if not Doom being a bit above Reed) and Reed being smarter is more or less just an informed attribute.

After all, only Doom could turn Ben Grimm back.

And mental fortitude? DUDE. Doom's willpower is monstrous.

• Tortured in Hell for months yet never uttered a single cry of pain
• Survived the Marquis of Death mutilating him, leaving him millions of years in the past for megalodons to rip apart, and waited MILLIONS OF YEARS while training just to get his revenge.
• Kang's gun, which literally drains your willpower, was useless on Doom due to his strength of will.
• No-selled mind attacks from a heavily amplified Purple Man.

2. For the Nullifier, we just agreed that even Reed shouldn't have it on his page, so it should be removed for him too.

 

[The_Impress]

1. I wouldn't say >>>>. It's usually shown as Reed's intelligence being >= Doom's, with Reed having the edge mostly due to his focus on cosmic science not being interrupted by needing to study magic like Doom. Also Reed has all day to study science, while Doom has to rule an entire country.

Sounds cope to be blunt, this is literally against Doom’s basic character trait

And sometimes it seems like they're equal (if not Doom being a bit above Reed) and Reed being smarter is more or less just an informed attribute.

After all, only Doom could turn Ben Grimm back.

…so? He isn’t Jesus, he has limits, Doom has a **** ton too, Reed can turn Ben Grimm back for the record, he has, that plotline’s just kinda very early FF wonk, not much else.

And mental fortitude? DUDE. Doom's willpower is monstrous.

• Tortured in Hell for months yet never uttered a single cry of pain
• Survived the Marquis of Death mutilating him, leaving him millions of years in the past for megalodons to rip apart, and waited MILLIONS OF YEARS while training just to get his revenge.
• Kang's gun, which literally drains your willpower, was useless on Doom due to his strength of will.
• No-selled mind attacks from a heavily amplified Purple Man.

Literally. Read Secret Wars. The most BASIC and WELL-KNOWN COMIC for the two. What do you see blatantly confirmed? Reed’s smarter and more capable. It’s the entire climax, or the Slott run opener, or basically any run that compares the two

I’m not giving bit moments more importance. Recognise it.

 

[The_Impress]

And for the record, Purple Man’s mind control is bypassed so many times it’s not even funny, or impressive anymore (amp was wrt range, not potency), and Kang’s willpower gun is literally featless, not to mention by implied context it is an inexperienced Kang (he goes back on the resurrection shit, something peak Kang refused to do), literally means nothing beyond baseline to assumed.

And literally every single major Marvel hero has the hell and torture feats, Strange, Thor and even Reed come to mind. Marquis feat is impressive but honestly like, that’s a stamina feat if anything.

Doom has also been confirmed as insecure, deeply disturbed, wrathful, egotistical, and so many other things, a “good mental fortitude”, especially OVER REED, is a very poor understanding of the mechanics at play there tbh

 

[Eseseso]

Literally. Read Secret Wars. The most BASIC and WELL-KNOWN COMIC for the two. What do you see blatantly confirmed? Reed’s smarter and more capable. It’s the entire climax, or the Slott run opener, or basically any run that compares the two

I’m not giving bit moments more importance. Recognise it.

Forgot about that Secret Wars.

Fair point.

Doom has also been confirmed as insecure, deeply disturbed, wrathful, egotistical, and so many other things, a “good mental fortitude”, especially OVER REED, is a very poor understanding of the mechanics at play there tbh

To be fair, I wasn't totally clear as what did and didn't constitute "mental fortitude" between the 2 of them.


Anyways, let's stop getting off track.

The point is, the Ultimate Nullifier shouldn't be a 2-A feat for either Reed OR Doom, BUT there are other 2-A feats above that were either accepted by Efi or IMO should be accepted, like killing the Watcher with prep (not to mention Reed's statement of whoever killed the Watcher being "off the rails", and keep in mind that he can measure the likes of Dark Phoenix and Galactus) or his feat of effortlessly tanking a blast from Uatu with both tech and heavily implied prep before staggering him with a blast powerful enough to knock the Cosmic Cube out of his hand.

And I see no reason why the Uatu vs Doom feat isn't valid.

Considering Uatu KNOWS that the Cosmic Cube is an Avengers-level threat (heh) and that the cube is so powerful, there's no reason for him to go easy on Doom.

I mean, Doom did only stagger him so he probably wasn't equal to Uatu in AP with his tech/prep (although his tech/prep durability seemed certainly comparable to Uatu's), but since he staggered Uatu with one blast he should at least be comparable to Uatu in that fight.

Also, according to Doom's intelligence section on Vs battles, he made his own Cosmic Cube once.

Not to mention, Another durability only feat is how Doom's shield protected him and Strange from Mephisto's attacks in Hell (it was when they were leaving Hell after successfully saving the soul of Doom's mother), and keep in mind that not only is Hell-amped Mephisto already a 2-A but he stomped Dr. Strange. Not to mention he was royally PISSED at this time.

In that same article, Doom managed to destroy Hell-amped Mephisto's body with an anti-matter grenade, although considering how quickly Mephisto reforms from this I'm not sure it counts.

 

[Eseseso]

Bump

 

[The_Impress]

@Qawsedf234 @DarkDragonMedeus @Antvasima

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I might need some time to go over all this.

 

[Eseseso]

I might need some time to go over all this.

Understood. If you want I can do a "recap"

 

[Eseseso]

Small bump

 

[Antvasima]

Eficiente seems to make sense to me above.

What else do we need to evaluate here? Easy to understand explanations would be appreciated.

 

[Eseseso]

Eficiente seems to make sense to me above.

What else do we need to evaluate here? Easy to understand explanations would be appreciated.

I still disagree with Eficiente on tge Doom vs Uatu fight and the feat of Doom killing a Watcher for the reasons I listed above. Especially since for the latter Reed OPENLY STATES that whatever killed the Watcher must have had a power level that was "off the rails", and keep in kind that Reed can measure Galactus's power level, as noted in the Vs battles entry for Dark Phoenix where he states that she rivals Galactus by his measurements.

Also, vs battles wiki itself mentions in Doom's intelligence section that he once made his own Cosmic Cube.

Not to mention, in addition to the 2-A absorption stuff that Efi accepted, we should also add that he absorbed the power of House of M Scarlet Witch, which he himself said was above the Cosmic Cube Beyonder.


Not to mention, Another durability only feat is how Doom's shield protected him and Strange from Mephisto's attacks in Hell (it was when they were leaving Hell after successfully saving the soul of Doom's mother), and keep in mind that not only is Hell-amped Mephisto already a 2-A but he stomped Dr. Strange. Not to mention he was royally PISSED at this time.

In that same article, Doom managed to destroy Hell-amped Mephisto's body with an anti-matter grenade, although considering how quickly Mephisto reforms from this I'm not sure it counts.

And let's not forget the Celestials feat, which is a nice 2-A durability feat until the Celestials downgrade happens

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that seems to make sense as well.