8-B Brackets Round 28

[Mr. Bambu]

Note that I argued more about poison not being able to reach father due to being always surrounded in flames rather than being immune to it, so in general I think is not that useful anyway.

Being surrounded in flames hasn't actually stopped it though. If for some reason you were so suicidal as to attempt to poison Teostra (don't), then you'd find your dumb gas bomb ticking away perfectly fine spewing out nappy gas while the janitors are scraping bits of your ashes off of the local geography.

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

Voting for Hunter FRA

Also wouldn't Hunter's Power Null work well on Father's fire attacks and Elder Seal cancel out any kind of heat/fire aura that surrounds his body? After all, iirc that basically happens on Teostra who surrounds himself with fire/flames literally all the time. On top of this Hunter has weapons that deal ice damage which plays right into Father's elemental weakness anyway.

 

[Antoniofer]

Not sure how much Teostra surrounds in flames, one thing is simply but fire surrounding your skin, and another is cover an AoE is flames (more like an aura). Theorically, gas wouldn't work in an full area of fire are the flame consume it.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

5 for Hunter

1(?) for Father

Also this is ending, but Adam vs Kai still hasn't ended.

 

[Psychomaster35]

Hunter FRA

 

[Firephoenixearl]

6-1

 

[Antoniofer]

Welp, technically I haven't voted yet, I just feel to debate. We still haven't debated about Father's telekinesis and duplication and any other possible Hunter's ability aside from poison.

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

Well again, Power Null would completely cancel out fire-based attacks and Elder Seal would take care of any abnormal heat/aura that focuses exclusively around the body at close range. The Hunter can use armor that even resists fire attacks and wield weapons that deal ice damage, which counter Father's biggest strength and target Father's greatest weakness. Hunter can also drink a Cool Drink in order to further reduce the effects of extreme heat given off by Father. All in all, Hunter has a means of cutting off Father from his best offensive capabilities entirely.

Not only that but Hunter can use the Ghillie Mantle to hide and the Temporal Mantle to automatically react to incoming attacks and avoid them. The Hunter also has a Fireproof Mantle which greatly increases the Hunter's resistance to fire and heat. Plus the Hunter has a means of healing whereas Father doesn't.

According to information I found on other wikis that document Father's abilities, Father seems to only really use telekinesis to levitate himself and once used it to pick up large candles or something. Not sure what the extent is of his duplication tho

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

According to information I found on other wikis that document Father's abilities, Father seems to only really use telekinesis to levitate himself and once used it to pick up large candles or something. Not sure what the extent is of his duplication tho

Actually, no, Father does use his TK to directly combat Numbuh One, he just can't use it directly on people. So him just grabbing the darts out of the air is an option.

His shockwaves would likely handle any small projectiles if he's actually serious. Keep in mind the KND were actively abusing weaknesses while he did this.

He can clone a lot. The clones can attack and fly around like him, although they're like shadow-clones in that they dissipate when hit.

I wouldn't be very sure about poison darts working on Father, IDK about powernull though; although if it isn't AoE The Hunter may have very high difficulty finding which one is the real Father.

He can also sort of just melt the darts through being pissed off enough and them being in his general proximity.

 

[Moritzva]

I'll actually retract my vote. We didn't give any arguments for Father besides the poison thing.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Fair. Let's address this.

We have the aforementioned stealth-where-the-Hunter-dances-across-the-noses-of-those-with-Enhanced-Senses-because-lol, we have the immense quantity of drugs the Monster Hunter is in possession of, sort of reminiscent of the suspicious trader from RE4.

Power Null, to address the point, can be minor AoE via Dragon Pods. And, again, the darts, arrows, etc function through the explosions of the Teostra perfectly fine.

The clones seem more illusory than anything, meaning any bullet-churning self-respecting Hunter could essentially machine gun through them.

The AP gap is sizable I'll grant you but in the face of versitility and copious amounts of questionable substances that would put an elephant to sleep for several weeks, I'd still err on the side of Hunter.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Father can sort of just burn down large sections of Central Park as he pleases, the Hunter would have to escape to the cities to properly stealth him, and even then that assumes yeeting into stealth is their first move.

If the Power Null is done through projectiles, as well as the darts, arrows, etc, why would Father have any trouble just melting them as they approach him? Or TKing them? Or shooting them back with a shockwave?

Actually, the clones can attack. They do die in one hit though, so a machine-gun'll do short work of them.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

It isn't assured to be but from any point of view in-game it is an incredibly smart choice when you, faced with a new "monster" (shadow man in this case), must essentially follow it and look at it for a bit, prod at it with a sword and find out how it works.

Because again, better beasts have tried and failed. TKing would work if he'd bother to attack what is essentially a small berry being shot at him.

Roight.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I guess. There's a couple of issues with this:

• The battle takes place around Father's own house. I wasn't expecting stealth to play into this so I can change the location if it makes the fight unfair.

• The battle takes place around what is essentially several square miles of flammable materials Father can burn down relatively fast.

• The Hunter would first have to escape the sight of Father, who can fly, knows his surroundings, and as previously mentioned can burn down the local area. And can also make a small army of clones to patrol the area.

Isn't Teostra later in the game, though?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I retract my vote too. We forgot to count in Duplication and TK.

Duplication should definitely take care of the sleep manip. As he will have trouble finding the real one. And TK would be pretty useful to disarm him.

Father seems to have a decent chance here.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

1. That... doesn't actually matter, when the equipment itself is giving you the ability of nigh-invisibility. Someone can still stealth in an area you know.

2. I mean. Fair, but that's still just jabbing out at random.

3. Do they start right in front of each other? The Hunter can do it, so long as he can escape line of sight the Gillie Mantle should do it's job but still.

It's the same equipment, but I guess you can switch to the example of Lavasioth or any of the other several hundred fire users.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

1. Fair enough.

2. True; but Father can instantly burn down entire woodland areas and does so when mildly annoyed. The Hunter would have a hard time not getting hit by the waves of flames and shockwaves.

3. They start on either end of the hedge maze in the picture linked to the OP.

Okay, sure. How hot are their flames, then?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

2. The Hunter does have equipment to severely mitigate the damage of fire. Fireproof Mantle is very good for that.

3. Right, but stealth works.

No idea, a good metric is the aforementioned Lavasioth plus a handful of other lava-swimmers (Akantor comes to mind) who view lava as nothing more than lukewarm water.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

2. How long would it take to swap into that equipment given that they aren't starting in it?

3. I guess. Father is aware he's fighting someone and of their initial location so his first action might be to just burn the whole thing to the ground.

Father can melt/vaporize handheld weapons and warp/melt an entire stone hallway by moving. I'd imagine that would be higher than average lava temperatures (unless we're talking about magma, even then eh), although to what degree is hard to tell.

Out of curiosity, how does Lavasioth's heat resistance translate to The Hunter's wepons?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

2. Throw off one "cape" and put on another, no like special latching or anything it just gets dragged over your armor.

3. Why is he allowed to have a garden? Seems irresponsible.

4. Yes, magma. Lava too, both of them occur since Akantor goes through the crust.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

2. I see. That should at least mitigate the large AP gap, although Father should still be capable of harming them.

3. iirc he blows up his own house fairly often.

4. Alright. So, I feel like Father has the edge here; by just swiftly moving through an area he can melt solid stone, whereas Akantor only swims through lava, which while very impressive isn't nearly as impressive as radiating enough heat to melt stone himself instantly.

I'm still rather confused as to how this applies to the Hunter's weapons; why would a Dragon's resistances have anything to do with how well they resist being melted by Father? And Father has been shown in-character to just melt weapons before they're used (unless they use his coldness/broccoli weakness).

 

[Mr. Bambu]

2. Absolutely. But it becomes less of a factor.

3. Irresponsible.

4. I should note that they create the lava by melting the stone. That's actually how they move. By melting the stone they tunnel through.

Because... tanking high damage equates to tanking high weapons...? I don't follow how that would be irrelevant. Regardless Hunter has buckets and buckets and buckets of equipment to toss about. My vote via drugs remains.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

4. I see. Do we have any idea how long this process takes?

???

Has the Hunter's weapons byassed the heat of those Dragons or something, while they were doing what they did to the underground stone?

I'm asking because Father would just exert himself a bit and melt everything around that doesn't resist sufficiently. If that's not the case with the hunter's small projectiles, then they melt/evaporate before they even touch Father.

This is still counfounded by cloning; and each clone can do this as well to other projectiles. Landing a dart on the real Father will be a very long and arduous task, while Father has plenty of ways of taking out The Hunter in direct combat.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Father's fire should be superior to lava. Considering lava is cooler than normal candles we use (cooler than 1200 degrees), i can't imagine Father's fire being below that of a candle.

 

[Moritzva]

Father's fire should be superior to lava. Considering lava is cooler than normal candles we use (cooler than 1200 degrees), i can't imagine Father's fire being below that of a candle.

I'm going to need a source for that, since that does not sound right.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

The hottest part of a candle seems to be 1400 degrees celsius. Lava when near the surface is about 1200 degrees celsius.

https://blog.doublehelix.csiro.au/fire-vs-lava/

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Gonna revert to 1 and 2.

1. Instant, like I said it's equatable to swimming through it. Here's an example.

2. I mean. Yes? They go through fire and are capable of nulling it with Elderseal. I dunno how this is a point.

3. Long and arduous is fine.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

So what you're telling me is that Father's weaponized candlesticks actually bypass the Hunter's heat resistances

Magma can be much hotter than Lava depending on the depth though.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

So what you're telling me is that Father's weaponized candlesticks actually bypass the Hunter's heat resistances
Magma can be much hotter than Lava depending on the depth though.

Obviously they come from inside the earth. But we're talking about lava here. They are not swimming in magma 10km below sea level.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

So what you're telling me is that Father's weaponized candlesticks actually bypass the Hunter's heat resistances

Don't underestimate a candle.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

1. Uh, that lava was there to begin with?

2. When do they go through fire remotely comprable to what Father puts out; at sustained levels? Elderseal applies to his small darts?

3. Not really, when Father can burn down the entire environment in that time.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

1. When it literally crawls through the stone, the stone melts.

2. As seen above, melting stone isn't really incredible. Elderseal can apply to various things, ranging from ammunition to pods to weapons.

3. Neat, but that doesn't actually help much other than potentially hitting MH. Or not.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

1. That's not the same thing as causing large masses of stone to melt as it goes through it, nor is it particularly impressive compared to Father's feats. Additionally that stone is already heated by virtue of being so close to magma.

2. No, that's just the teperature of lava. Being so hot that you melt stone that isn't even near you is very impressive. So, does Elderseal apply to the specific weapons The Hunter needs to take out Father?

3. I'd imagine it would be hard to stealth someone in open, charred flatlands, while inevitably being covered in particulates, even if they can go pseudo-invisible.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

1. How is it not when that's exactly what it does, and so does he, so on and so forth (see 0:57 or so).

2. I mean. You used the words melting stone. That's what they do. Casually. To the point that it doesn't even do damage (if you pay attention to the Lavasioth cutscene lava splashes onto your literal face and you don't notice). Elderseal applies to certain equipment but like I said can be accessed outside of weapons. For the purpose of these matches I've been assuming they're using relatively neutral equipment. Anything I argue for should be assumed to come from the items they carry on them over their weapons since, frankly, specifying the weapon is a deathtrap.

3. It really wouldn't with their equipment. Like I said, you can quite literally dance in front of the nose of a fifteen-foot firebreathing T-Rex looking directly at you with the Gillie Mantle.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

1. It diggs into the ground at that point, which sends chunks of unmelted stone flying up. It melts some, but nothing very impressive. Again, the rocks are already superheated and in proximity to large quantities of magma to begin with.

2. Melting small amounts of stone via touch =/= melting a stone hallway in seconds that you aren't even touching.

So, they wouldn't have it on the darts you specified they need to win? And would Elderseal go into effect if they melt while near Father, or are pushed back through shockwaves prior? And this all assumes they land on the real Father, when The Hunter could waste valuable ammunition on clones.

3 Wouldn't putting on the Gillie Mantle require taking off their flame-resistant equipment, which makes the AoE damage far worse?.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Didn't we already establish that father's flames are hotter?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

^^ I'm voting father for this btw

 

[Mr. Bambu]

1. It melts what it goes through, this is further established when lava shoots up when they come out. And being superheated doesn't incredibly matter much. They start at one but the Lavasioth/Agnaktor/etc makes it hotter. So it doesn't really matter what the starting point is.

2. Same heat over a wide radius. Cool. Literally means nothing though.

What? I never mentioned darts? They would have it on something like a berry, which I did mention. Where did you get darts from? They do have it on arrows and bullets and such though. Dragon ammo exists. They also wouldn't melt, again, just saying they melt stones passively doesn't actually mean it is significantly hotter. Also "valuable ammunition" can literally be spared when they carry tons of the stuff. And can craft it out of scrap metal and leaves for whatever reason. The logic doesn't stand up.

3. After the wasteland is already flamed to bits, who cares? You can maneuver a bit more.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

1. Magma does shoot up, sure. Why do we assume that this is caused by the dragon when there are plenty of existing pools of magma in the area that could spurt up as they're tunneled through?

2. Same heat, yes, but radiated from a single concentrated point and over less time.

How much of each ammunition type do they carry normally? Are you telling me they carry 'tons' of their poison weapons, which would be needed for a win? I said 'poison darts' as the wincon functions identically to that; it's just semantics. Why would there be scrap metal to craft anything on the fly in a burning wasteland? Or anything that can be used to make poison/sleep inducing weapons?

3. Maneuver around what?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

1. Because it can be done away from the lava. I can't dig up a video but anyone can confirm that the Lavasioth can do the same old attacks anywhere in Elder's Recess if you're actually so inclined to drag it away from the lava.

2. So it isn't hotter. It's faster and wider range.

Depends on the bullets. Typical rounds are hundred a pop. The win-con really can be anything you like, the favorite is drugging him or electrocuting him or whatever since that's the fastest and is less messy. And... I'm inot implying they'll be crafting lol. I'm pointing out your thing about "precious ammo" really is meaningless when it can be made from anything.

3. The wasteland. Without walls restricting movement it is easier to move about, no?