8-B Brackets Round 28

[ShiroyashaGinSan]

I'm MH expert and I don't know what is going on.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

1. That assumes the surface lava is the only lava there, when we see streams coming from sideways, above, and below in the area. And sure.

2. Melting something faster takes more heat. Melting something farther away takes more heat. It takes the same heat applied over the area to do it, but the source would need to be hotter due to these factors due to Inverse-Square or something like that.

Again I don't see the drugs or electricution coming into play due to Father's own flames and shockwaves. Projectiles that don't abuse his weaknesses really fail against him.

3. Sure? How is that going to help him from being blasted with fire from dozens of clones?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Basically the current argument for Father is that he nukes everything in the vicinity immediately and continues doing so as his clones scamper about. Monster Hunter just has the general argument of Ghillie Mantle stealth meaning his literal only chance is to do the aforementioned nuking, their sedatives will KO or paralyze or what have you, and shouldn't be terribly meltable when they work on guys like Teostra, Lavasioth, Agnaktor, etc fine.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

1. Elder's Recess doesn't always look like a lava pool, was the point.

2. Or having the ability to enact that ability from a distance, and considering the ground melts when they touch it that seems pretty fast to me, ngl.

The flames bit is looking shaky at best and his shockwaves would have to constantly be going. I doubt it would help in the case of a shock trap anyways since they're somewhat fixed to the ground IIRC but hey.

3. Being... out of the flames...?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

To be clear, a single hit from Elderseal from stealth effectively destroys any argument for Father. He's being pushed pretty hard but I just want to point out that literally that ends his existence with the Hunter then drugging him or beating him to death from stealth or what have you.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

To be fair, the Ghillie Mantle affects animals, yeah, how does it work exactly? Would it work on an intelligent human looking for him? Also did we discuss that equipping it removes his fire-resistant equipment?

And Father can still directly attack until it's equipped.

They work on Dragons with inferior heat-based feats.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Same as other mantles, pop it on. And... these "animals" are actually intelligent, funnily enough. Elder dragons are renowned for their intelligence, hence the existence of Dragon Element. It harms you more based on your intelligence. We did. It doesn't matter much, but we did.

True. And Hunter can still shoot him with a berry and nullify his ability.

Are... are you seriously going to push that?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Yeah, and he'd lose his fire resistances and get hit with the full force of Father's AoE fires. Ah, gotcha.

Does the berry need to contact Father to null? Still has to hit him and not a clone, too.

For 8-B Hunter? Sure. I don't think the feats that were linked to me were more impressive than Father. Even then he still has shockwaves.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Which isn't enough to one-shot.

Yes, but frankly gunning down one-shot clones isn't difficult, nor is loading in a ton of berries.

So you are going to push the idea that because Father's feats are higher (they really aren't that higher if higher at all) in heat his ability to use them would resist power null. When Father's feats are "superior" in that wider range (doesn't equate to outright higher heat, that's something you'd have to prove) and faster (Which they don't seem to be when the thing Hunter's nulls is literally instant). Furthermore, Dragon Element doesn't really get better with tier. That's just an effect of the weapon/equipment/what have you, so the same Elderseal is given by 8-B hunter as Low 6-B hunter as 5-A hunter. So no. That logic doesn't fly.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Sure, but the gap is fairly large and Father has plenty oppertunities to hit.

Shooting off repeating machine guns doesn't seem like a competent stealth choice.

Not saying he resists powernull. I'm saying he deals with the method it's activated before it happens.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

And Hunter has plenty of opportunities to literally negate it with one hit. And the gap is about 2x if that, considering the 20.20 ton feat is fodder.

It works against Enhanced Senses so why not?

But he really doesn't since as said above, his feat isn't actually superior in terms of raw heat than anyone else that fails to passively melt it. The same equipment tangles with Teostra regardless of who is using it, for the record. And it doesn't melt.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Since it seems that we're discussing whether or not the negation lands I'll bench this point for now.

You're telling me you can set off machine guns and loud weaponry right next to monsters in the game with that item with no repercussions? That doesn't sound right.

Wait, where was it demonstrated it's passive? The ground isn't melting right under any of those dragons during the fight you linked me.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I'll tell you that it's quite quieter than a typical machine gun. I'll also tell you that despite enhanced senses they were unable to find the Hunter.

During their dive, when they go through the stone. Passive may be the incorrect word in favor of contact-based but you do get the point.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

But like, from what distance? Did the Hunter have cover? I understandably need to get the whole situation to make a fair judgement here.

They're contacting the ground, though; which is already heated due to being in the proximity of magma and not melting under them. If they only do it during dives that seems to be activated.

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

So I'm also just gonna mention this again since it seems it got brushed off the first two (I think two) times I mentioned it.

Temporal Mantle. Hunter puts it on in literally a second, he then is capable of instinctively dodging incoming attacks from virtually any angle even if they are AoE. Hunter simply using this and opening firing with one of the Bowguns would allow him to mow down large numbers of clones while avoiding damage.

That being said, I'm pretty sure the Ghillie Mantle fails the moment you start throwing out attacks? However, Hunter can still throw out Slinger ammo without losing his Ghillie Mantle from what I recall, meaning that he can still use this to dispatch individual duplicates without revealing himself. And friendly reminder, the beasts the Hunter uses this on not only have Enhanced sense but also are noted as being smarter than the average human more often then not. So Father would actually fall for this. Even then, attacking ending the Ghillie Mantle wouldn't at all stop the Hunter from simply sneaking around behind Father and his duplicates and then opening fire on them when they are unaware of his location and therefore get mowed down before being able to properly do anything. Also Apothecary Mantle allows Hunter to more easily induce status effects, which would include Elder Seal infliction among various other things. Meaning that Father would have to avoid almost every hit in order to not get afflicted with these status effects.

Also, if you look back at an MH3 Arena battle with the Agnaktor you can see the Agnaktor trying to dig into the ground and it then instantaneously starts spewing lava/Magma or whatever, implying that Agnaktor is melting it via contact as there shouldn't be any lava/magma directly under the surface of this ground. As well as that, Agnaktor literally has a charge attack where it goes swimming through the ground, melting it as it goes in order to allow itself to build up speed and therefore directly strike the Hunter. And these arena fights take place outside of the volcanic climates, meaning that the rocks themselves are not heated in advance or already super hot or whatever.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The Ghillie Mantle negates need for cover. And... any distance your weapon can hit with.

When they go into the ground it melts. 's about what this adds up to, the this is something of a

tanget, don't you think? And... no, Dargoo, it isn't already heated, which, again, mathematically doesn't matter. You can do it outside of the lava area. This is what the rest of the area actually looks like, and, of course, this is just one example.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Temporal Mantle. Hunter puts it on in literally a second, he then is capable of instinctively dodging incoming attacks from virtually any angle even if they are AoE. Hunter simply using this and opening firing with one of the Bowguns would allow him to mow down large numbers of clones while avoiding damage.

I'm genuinely curious how that looks in-game because that sounds physically impossible.

(Unless it's like Persona and it just says "Dodged" when a plantery nuke is about to hit them)

Meaning that Father would have to avoid almost every hit in order to not get afflicted with these status effects.

I mean, I get that sounds stupidly hard to do on paper, but Father actually has tons of methods of dealing with projectile attacks.

And these arena fights take place outside of the volcanic climates, meaning that the rocks themselves are not heated in advance or already super hot or whatever.

Oh, I may have been mistaken. I thought it took place in a cave, next to a magma chamber?

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

Also unrelated to the arguments but could someone repost the current number of votes for each character? Kinda hard to keep track of it, what with all of these responses being churned out.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

They can take place there. But they aren't forced there. The monsters can physically move elsewhere.

also your first response to Gimmy says "wow that sounds impossible on paper" and then state that father's ability sounds impossible on paper kek

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Assuming you're voting Hunter...

Hunter: 5

Father: 1 (Earl)

Incon: 0

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

...Also, just one more thing about the projectiles being melted before hitting Father...

many of these weapons are still effective against the likes of Shah Dalamadur. A late-game monster, yes, but as Bambu stated earlier you can very much use the same manner of equipment on several monsters, such as throwing knives or ammo types or what have you.

and Shah Dalamadur is stated to, in canon, be as hot as a star. And these bullets and thrown projectiles can still hit Shah Dalamadur without melting.

And yes, I was voting Hunter already

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I forgot about Dalamadur's variant stuff, you right

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I mean, it's obviously not the same equipment since they can harm beings with orders of magnitude greater in power.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The pods aren't meant to damage, the gas isn't harming them. But... also it is. It's just the force at which it is sent.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I'm very skeptical about 8-B projectiles having Tier 6 heat resistance.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

okay

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I feel like it's a matter of interpretation honestly; if their weapons can damage Tier 6 characters later in the game it's fine to say their other weapons are similarly upgraded to combat them. If more people think that an early-game hunter can chuck projectiles at something as hot as the Sun, oh well.

Father can still push them back with shockwaves.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Actually. Are we sure he can? These are launched with enough force that Class 100 and over creatures can't just swat them away. Your shockwave thing is only useful if they can overcome that.

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

I mean small-scale tornados/hurricanes are incapable of throwing these projectiles off-course at all as seen in fights with creatures like Barrioth.

As well as this concussive roars from various forms of Tigrex and Najarala don't knock the projectiles off-course either.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Do we ever see Class 100 creatures ''try ''and swat them away?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

They certainly swat around. For a fair amount of monsters flailing about is a large part of it. I'd also point out that stuff like the Hunter's bow would still launch at Class 100 since it uses the Hunter's own strength.

Either way, doesn't matter.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

wdym "launch at Class 100?" It's weight doesn't change.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The force changes. Force is measured in weight. F= MA and whatnot.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Ah. I guess that makes sense.

I still think Father can melt the projectiles, and the issue of his numerous duplicates is still there.

Although I think there is a solid argument for The Hunter winning now; I think Father takes this more oft than not though.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Duplicates are dealt with by whiffing in their general direction, the melting has been debunked. But to each their own.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

"Debunked" for late-game feats, yes.

I'm still not convinced early-game weapons get past solar levels of heat, but yeah, at this point I think we've both said our part.

 

[Stalker_Maggot]

Hunter FRA

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Because they endure the late game feats. I could literally carry the same ammunition in my back pocket the entire game (and I will, because I don't use the guns and am more of a longsword user myself) and fire it and it would have the same "elemental" effects. Damage would be different, but stuff like sleep inducement wouldn't.

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

Can't believe that I forgot to mention this earlier, but Lavasioth and Agnaktor both literally wear lava/magma on top of their bodies and these projectiles still affect them through the lava/magma armor, if that helps any.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

You can literally keep the same weapons through the game and they'd do damage to higher level characters; so that isn't really a valid argument.

I'm not concerned about the status effects, I'm concerned about heat resistance.

@Gimmy Father's fires are hotter than lava/magma unless it's stupid deep magma.

Hunter: 6

Father: 1 (Earl)

Incon: 0