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7-C Bloodborne and Some Questions on Scaling

Poiesis_Element

Poiesis_Element

125
14
So, with my calculation on the Living Failures' Meteor Summoning being evaluated and the mid-end accepted by Mr. Bambu, who was just recently been made a calc group member (congratulations, by the way), we now need to figure out how it scales to other characters. Obviously, the Hunter needs a Mid-Game Key, but I'd like some more input on other characters.

However, I also have some questions regarding scaling outside of that. Now, I know Weekly has said that Bloodborne's scaling is primarily based off of its lore, which I can understand, but sometimes it just doesn't make any sense. For instance, The One Rebor has no reason to be 8-C, not even lore seeing as to how there isn't anything concrete on it. It also doesn't help that not only can it only be fought once Rom has been defeated, but its a manditory boss, so you can't even use the excuse that it can be fought in a loose order or that its optional.

Then there's also Eilee , who not only fought the Good Hunter after defeating Rom (assuming you didn't help her with Henryk), but she's also said "No more dreams for me. This is my last chance." This implies that she was once a hunter of the Dream, which, of course, was made with the intention of hunting down other Great Ones. Yeah, sure, you could say that it was implied she would have lost to Henryk, but even that's kind of questionable considering that she seemed perfectly fine if you don't help her with Henryk. So, unless she was just sitting around doing nothing while the Hunter was meandering through the forest, I think her "loss" to Henryk can be chalked up to gameplay mechanics to stop the player from just sitting back and letting her do all of the fighting.

Regardless, this would also scale to the Bloody Crow of Cainhurst , who not only easily defeated her, but also fought the Good Hunter, again after they'd already defeated Rom.

So, with that in mind, I'd like to hear some feedback and, do note, this is the first thread I've ever made, so take it easy on me.
 
Okay. I'm talking with Weekly right now about the scaling and top tier stuff, waiting for Weekly's responses as they pop up. Depending on Weekly's responses/sources, I will probably organize a absurdly massive CRT on the verse that would effectively alter the Mid-Tiers/High-Tiers/God-Tiers.

Optimally, tiers will look a little bit like this:

  • Low Tiers: Scale to early game monsters that are the size of buildings (Vicar Amelia being the best example) and minor feats like Blacksky Eye. With your calc, we may have to split this into two tiers, one being 8-C and the other being 7-C for creatures like Ludwig, LF, Yamamura, and so on.
  • Mid Tiers: Scale to beings like Rom and the Oprhan of Kos, the former of which held the Paleblood Moon in place and the latter of which created the Hunter's Nightmare, which has what is described as "a possessed moon". I will be doing calcs on the latter later, and possibly the former.
  • High Tiers: Scale to the currently accepted value of A Call Beyond, 164 Tenatons of TNT (Star level). Anyone comparable to Ebrietas or the Celestial Emissary. Moon Presence would be in this tier.
  • God Tiers: Oedon, basically. He transcends the verse completely. Not sure what tier he would be. High 4-C is most likely.
 
Also thank you for the congratulations but not much has changed lol.

I can write up a full list of characters I believe belong in each tier, but I'd rather save that for the CRT. Needless to say, no more of this constant "8-C" spam. We're going to try to fix this.
 
@Bambu What we could do is have it be:

Beginning of Game (8-C) - Early Game (7-C) - Mid Game (Tier 5 stuff) - Late Game (4-C) - End Game (Honoring Wishes 4-C+) - End Game (Childhood's Beginning High 4-C)
 
If the triple value thing for Honoring Wishes is accepted, maybe, but I'm not keen on the idea.
 
Also @Weekly You never answered, where does the Hunter's time hax come from? IIRC Hunter does canonically resurrect but I don't remember anything saying that each reset is a time alteration.
 
There is also the issue of Soulsborne games not having linear scaling with the bosses, so we'd kinda have to go by lore primarily and fill in the scaling gaps as we go
 
Yeah. But we could easily justify the idea that this boss comes after this boss, cannot be accessed until after said boss, and still challenges the player, so they should be comparable to said boss.

Example. One Reborn being 8-C after Rom is a very weird way of scaling.
 
Hey, Dark Souls does stuff like that all the time, iirc one of the early bosses in DS3 is a tier 4 and then you go back to fighting tier 7s and 6s with tier 4s sprinkled in every now and then. Soulsborne is notorious for this, we cant go by linear scaling alone, they need a lore connection or a connection via fighting in the case of the hunters.
 
Yeah. That's super weird. And not at all fitting. Linear scaling isn't acceptable in every case, but for some of these it is flat out ridiculous. One Reborn being 8-C is weak reasoning of "We just don't know gosh darn it" and yet you can only fight it after fighting at least one Tier 5.
 
The One Reborn should scale to the Living Failures lore-wise as theyre both connected by lore as failed attempts to create artificial Great Ones
 
They come after Rom, can't be fought before Rom. That sounds a lot like Tier 5 to me. Like there is no way to even interact with OR before fighting Rom, who is the baseline for Tier 5 in the verse. Scaling can be iffy because of non-linear routes in game (for example, Martyr Logarius challenging an end-of-game player is largely game mechanics, not lore, because he can be fought at the same time as Shadows of Yharnam).

But that doesn't apply to One Reborn.
 
High 6-A to Low 5-B for Kosm's Nightmare. Both of you have experience in calculations, so if this is acceptable to you both I hope it can be used.
 
8-C+ (Scaling from Blacksky Eye, sheer size, and tanking natural lightning):

  • Vicar Amelia
  • Cleric Beast
  • Blood-starved Beast
  • Witch of Hemwick
  • Bloodletting Beast
  • Keeper of the Old Lords
  • Watchdog of the Old Lords
  • Undead Giant
  • Father Gascoigne
  • Retired Hunter Djura
  • Henryk, the Old Hunter
  • Alfred, Hunter of the Vilebloods
  • Martyr Logarius
7-C (Scaling from Living Failures):

  • Living Failures
  • Yamamura, the Wanderer
  • Loran Darkbeast
  • Darkbeast Paarl
  • Abhorrent Beast
  • Simon, Seeker of Secrets
  • Brador, the Church Assassin
  • Valtr, Master of the League
  • Ludwig, the Accursed/Holy Blade
  • Laurence, the First Vicar
Tier 5 (Wherever these guys end up but it will be very easily tier 5)

  • Orphan of Kos
  • Amygdala
  • Rom, the Vacuous Spider
  • Celestial Emissary
  • The One Reborn
  • Lady Maria of the Astral Clocktower
  • Eileen the Crow
  • Bloody Crow of Cainhurst
4-C (Scaling from Call Beyond):

  • Forgotten Madman and Madman's Escort
  • Micolash, Host of the Nightmare
  • Yurie, the Last Scholar
  • Imposter Iosefka
  • Merciless Watchers
  • Pthumerian Elder
  • Pthumerian Descendent
  • Shadows of Yharnam
At least 4-C (By virtue of being vastly stronger than A Call Beyond):

  • Yharnam, Pthumerian Queen
  • Ebrietas, Daughter of the Cosmos
  • Mergo's Wet Nurse
  • Gehrman, the First Hunter
At least 4-C, likely higher (Guys who are far stronger than the guys who are vastly stronger than A Call Beyond)

  • Moon Presence
  • Formless Oedon
 
Defector Antal and Darkbeast Paarl should scale with Yamamura and Living Failures, since Yamamura is also summoned for the Paarl boss fight alongside Antal. Loran Darkbeast would follow suit due to it being the same species as Paarl.

I also disagree with placing Maria in with those that are "vastly beyond a Call Beyond", nothing implies that at all aside from her being a pupil of Gehrman. We don't know how strong she is compared to Gehrman, best to scale her to the Orphan's feat.

Additionally. I believe Brador and Simon should both scale to 7-C as well- Brador is only encountered after the Living Failures' feat, and Simon survived attacks from him (even if it did eventually lead to his death).

Eileen the Crow and Bloody Crow of Cainhurst absolutely belong in a tier with Rom, as Bloody Crow is meant to pummel players after Rom, and can only be experienced after Rom. Eileen survived attacks from him, and can also be a "mini-boss" after Rom, too. I agree with OP in that being able to fight Eileen in early game is game mechanics and her being able to die to Henryk if you intervene is likely the same, since without your intervention, Eileen always triumphs over Henryk, 100% of the time.

Gehrman should almost certainly be one tier lower since he is powerless against the Moon Presence.

Ludwig and Laurence should scale to Living Failures, since they are encountered at about the same time. This would mean both Valtr and Madaras are also 7-C as Valtr can be summoned for this fight, as can Madaras, though Madaras might be best being left at 8-C (He can be summoned for an 8-C boss (shadows) a 7-C boss (ludwig) and a tier 5 boss (rom), pretty much entirely inconsistent). Henriett should also be considered 8-C for being basic as **** the first summon in-game.

Abhorrent Beast should be "At least 8-C" since he is encountered canonically before Shadows of Yharnam.

Martyr should also remain at "At least 8-C" since the path to him opens up after Vicar Amelia.

Also, do Merciless Watchers have Call Beyond? I don't recall that, but then again I rushed through the Chalice Dungeons and only used them to access the cut content.
 
Pthumerian isn't justification for that tier though. They were a species before attaining that level of power, no reason to assume literally all of them have that level of power. Especially not when Shadows and Watchers are both pretty much fodder of the verse.

Additionally, if your source for the Shadows is the "Blood Rapture" rune, then no, they aren't, they are servants to their queen. They are never stated to be Pthumerians and bear little resemblence to the other Pthumerians in the game. While I'm on the subject, source for the Merciless Watchers being Pthumerians?
 
It actually is though, all the Pthumerians that survived are the ones that received the power of the Eldrich Truth, this is stated several times in the lore itself

>Found exclusively in Pthumerian Chalice Dungeons and nowhere else >>These Chalice Dungeons hold exclusively Pthumerian enemies >Their appearance matches a Pthumerian to a t (humanoid beings with pale greyish color skin, a head with a permanent, expressionless face, with their mouths wide open)

Its hard to say theyre not
 
The Watchdog of the Old Lords is also found exclusively in the dungeon. Same for several other entities. Being a servant of the Pthumerians doesn't make you a Pthumerian. And... no, their appearance doesn't.

Pthumerian decendant
This is a Pthumerian.

MercilessWatcher
This is a merciless watcher.

These two look nothing alike aside from the skin color.
 
Anything else on our plates? Rom calc might get done later tomorrow, gotta be up early and whatnot for an appointment with some folks about some things.
 
Okay, just got back and probably going to sleep soon, if you find anything feel free to message me directly or leave it here.
 
Hi, sorry I've been quiet, but I was asleep while you two were talking and had to go straight to work in the morning.

Anyway, to answer the question on where the Hunter's Time Travel come from (which is what I think it should be, rather than Time Manipulation), it comes from the comics and is shown in the first issue, which you can read here: http://www.comicextra.com/bloodborne/chapter-1

I've also commented on the calculation of the Hunter's Nightmare, so I hope it proves to be useful. As for the feat for Rom holding the moon back, if you're using kinetic energy like I think you are, you can use these two images to make finding the distance the moon travelled a little easier.

http://i.imgur.com/E9O7o6k.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/xTM8nth.jpg

As for the scaling so far, it looks good, though on the subject of the Pthumerians, I'm no help as they're the part of Bloodborne I know and understand the least about.

On another subject though, I think speed might need to be different in seperate keys. For instance, Beginning of game could be supersonic for being able to dodge flintlock and cannon fire while the top tiers are possibly relativistic for dodging A Call Beyond which, if it is like a real supernova, would be 10% SoL. Admittedly though, I'm not entirely sure about either.

I also might be able to post a lifting strength feat for the bottom tiers, which, if they're good, would put them at Class 25 or 50.
 
Alright then. Speaking of speed though, are we sure the Old Hunter's Bone/Art of Quickening is teleporting. I ask because the Saif Hunter enemies in the DLC have it to, but they don't teleport, they just speed up. I'll see if I can find a video of it.
 
So time manip comes from the comics. Considering how big of a power that is, should we discuss the canonocity of the comics? Because I am against using them. It is supplementary at best, and for it to make such a huge change... for obvious reasons I believe that should be removed.

I am also in agreement that the Old Hunter Bone isn't teleporting since... you know, it is literally referred to as "Quickening". I imagine it works very much like, to provide a parallel, the Haste spell from Dungeons and Dragons, heightening speed for some time. No reason to assume it is teleportation since everything we know about it contradicts that. It would be like giving Dragon Ball characters the same ability because of their movement speed.
 
I have added the revised tally to the calculation, I believe Poiesis' method should be used.
 
I'm not entirely sure how we'd go about discussing the comic's canonicity, so you might want to ask someone more knowledgeable on the subject about that. From what little I've looked up, it is an officially liscensed comic, but I'm not sure if that actually tells us anything. It might be a case like the Injustice comics or Halo Escalation, though I'm not sure if that's comparable. On the hole, I'm of little help on the subject.

On a side note, though, I've just learned the comic's getting an extension called The Healing Thirst.
 
Alright, I believe I'll ask each individual BB supporter since the comic adds a huge aspect to the Hunter that is never once referred to in-game.
 
And as i said before, this comic is different from the dark souls comic in that the author admitted to goingninto the dark souls comic blind whereas he stated that for bloodborne he thurougjly read the lore and clocked over 200 hours in the game so he could make it as accurate as poasible

It was officially licensed by and published by Fromsoftware as well so thats a plus
 
Plus the mechanic in the comic is identical to how dying and reviving in the game works, its an expansion on explaining what happens when you die in the game
 
Yes, he may have done his homework. And of course it is licensed. But it clearly adds a huge aspect of the resurrection theme that was never in the game. It is inconsistent. It really doesn't matter if he tried to get a grip on the game or not. This is supplementary content.

Like I said, I'll ask all the Bloodborne folks on it, but I am personally hugely against adding such a major ability when it comes from a secondary source.
 
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