Tatsumi vs Pupitar

[GoldenScorpions]

7-B Match
​

Characters	Attack Potency	Votes
Stage 2 Incursio Tatsumi (Akame ga Kill!)	33 Megatons	2 (@Popted2, @Kisaragi_Megumi )
Pupitar (Pokémon)	45.88 Megatons
Inconclusive

• The match takes place at Mont Saint-Michel, during high tide. A barrier seals the island 200 meters away.
• Starting distance is 10 meters, on the sandy part at the bottom of the island town.
• Speed is equalized
• Characters have their standard equipment.
• No knowledge of each other. No civilians or vehicles in the area.
• Stat amps will cap at 100 Megatons. Stat reduction will cap at 6.3 Megatons
• Victory is achieved under what is defined by SBA.
  • Time limit of 12 hours. Past that, any decisive immobilization or incapacitation for more than 10 seconds becomes a victory condition.

 

[Psychomaster35]

So Pupitar can simply use Scary Face 3 times to reduce Tatsumi’s speed to a fourth and use Dragon Dance 6 times to increase its Attack and Speed to 4x (With each use increasing its Attack/Speed by 50%), which means by then, Pupitar will be 16x faster and will be more likely to blitz depending on how potent Tatsumi’s Reactive Evolution is. Sure, it’s possible he might adapt to resisting its Rock/Ground attacks, but they would still do some damage anyways as it isn’t granting him full immunity like with how he could only move in time stop for 1 second. And with the range advantage, if Tatsumi goes invisible, Pupitar simply uses Earthquake to attack him from there. Screech and Iron Defense makes things worse as using them 3 times will increase Pupitar’s own defense by 4x while also reducing Tatsumi’s own defense by 4x respectively.

And even if we say Tatsumi will eventually become completely immune to Pupitar’s Rock/Ground attacks, Pupitar still has some Normal & Dark type moves that probably wouldn’t be affected by RE.

In other words, it’s really dependent on how fast his Tatsumi’s RE can get before Pupitar amps itself, reduces Tatsumi’s stats, and blitzes.

 

[DontTalkDT]

So Pupitar can simply use Scary Face 3 times to reduce Tatsumi’s speed to a fourth and use Dragon Dance 6 times to increase its Attack and Speed to 4x (With each use increasing its Attack/Speed by 50%), which means by then, Pupitar will be 16x faster and will be more likely to blitz depending on how potent Tatsumi’s Reactive Evolution is.

Can, yes. Would, I have my doubts. I have never seen a wild Pokémon spam stat reduction and increase moves like that. Not saying it definitely never happens, but I'm fairly sure it's the exception, not the rule. Like, some wild Pokémon are good fighters, but usually they are not this strategic (or use this particular strategy).

I would argue Tatsumi is more skilled than a regular wild Pupitar.

And he hits with a spear, which I guess would equalize to a Steel-type attack, which Pupitar is weak to.

 

[Psychomaster35]

Can, yes. Would, I have my doubts. I have never seen a wild Pokémon spam stat reduction and increase moves like that. Not saying it definitely never happens, but I'm fairly sure it's the exception, not the rule. Like, some wild Pokémon are good fighters, but usually they are not this strategic (or use this particular strategy).

Technically Mystery Dungeon does exist where they act by themselves in any way possible.

I would argue Tatsumi is more skilled than a regular wild Pupitar.

Eh, fair enough, but then there’s the moment of his speed being reduced.

And he hits with a spear, which I guess would equalize to a Steel-type attack, which Pupitar is weak to.

Don’t we call these irregular typing circumstances? Even then, Iron Defense should compensate for that.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Technically Mystery Dungeon does exist where they act by themselves in any way possible.

Didn't we separate that from the usual canon given that it works different in many aspects? I mean, Mystery Dungeon Pokémon clearly have different intelligence from normal ones... and even then, I don't think I have seen a PMD mon use such a strategy.

Don’t we call these irregular typing circumstances? Even then, Iron Defense should compensate for that.

No idea.

 

[Epiccheev]

PMD pokemon usually use moves at a random when at melee range, but will spam self buffs and use AOE/long range moves when at a certain distance from the opponent.
That being said every match that i've seen involving game characters with no real in character behaviour has people arguing for them as if they would open with the most optimal strategy from the get go with no real opposition towards these arguments, so idk.

 

[DontTalkDT]

PMD pokemon usually use moves at a random when at melee range, but will spam self buffs and use AOE/long range moves when at a certain distance from the opponent.

I mean, even if we did consider that, Tatsumi is going to close in and starting range is 10m. (And i think they actually don't buff when too far away from the opponent either. You very rarely meet massively boosted pkmn in my experience)

That being said every match that i've seen involving game characters with no real in character behaviour has people arguing for them as if they would open with the most optimal strategy from the get go with no real opposition towards these arguments, so idk.

That's just on the opposition not making the good arguments. We don't assume character with no standard tactics act optimally.

 

[Epiccheev]

(And i think they actually don't buff when too far away from the opponent either. You very rarely meet massively boosted pkmn in my experience)

They'd start doing it as soon as they notice their opponents upon entering a room, wich would be more or less doing it on sight. Wich is how the battle will start. 10m does limit that a bit tho, yes.

 

[KobsterHope07]

There is always the Pokédex to see if we gleam the characteristics of a Pokémon

 

[Ret_of_Guys]

Well, I guess that depends on whether 10 meters in in the range in which Pupitar would be self buffing or not. Also, since I haven't played Mystery Dungeon yet, can Pokemon move and attack at the same time?

There is always the Pokédex to see if we gleam the characteristics of a Pokémon

This is my first time reading the Pokedex entries for Pupitar and it apparently it can use pressurized gas to launch itself like a rocket/jet? Also Pupitar outspeeds Tatsumi? What? Would Pupitar just ram into Tatsumi?

 

[Psychomaster35]

Also, since I haven't played Mystery Dungeon yet, can Pokemon move and attack at the same time?

If they increase their speed, they can get some extra turns in before other enemies around them move, so technically yeah.

This is my first time reading the Pokedex entries for Pupitar and it apparently it can use pressurized gas to launch itself like a rocket/jet? Also Pupitar outspeeds Tatsumi? What? Would Pupitar just ram into Tatsumi?

That’s the purpose of speedblitzing

 

[Ret_of_Guys]

If they increase their speed, they can get some extra turns in before other enemies around them move, so technically yeah.


That’s the purpose of speedblitzing

Pupitar can blitz Tatsumi, but it doesn't oneshot, so Pupitar would probably spend at least one turn Dragon Dancing before trying to attack. Also the reason I was confused is because the whole propelling thing is Dex entry only and also because Pupitar doesn't look like it can move.

Also, how is Stomping Tantrum a ground-type move in the first place? Isnt it just the user getting really angry and stomping the opponent?

Since Pupitar has the range and speed advantage, could it just move itself to always be out of Tatsumi's range and just spam Earthquake?

 

[Psychomaster35]

Pupitar can blitz Tatsumi, but it doesn't oneshot, so Pupitar would probably spend at least one turn Dragon Dancing before trying to attack. Also the reason I was confused is because the whole propelling thing is Dex entry only and also because Pupitar doesn't look like it can move.

Only after applying the speed amps/reducing Tatsumi’s speed, but yeah.

Also, how is Stomping Tantrum a ground-type move in the first place? Isnt it just the user getting really angry and stomping the opponent?

...They’re making a quake?

Since Pupitar has the range and speed advantage, could it just move itself to always be out of Tatsumi's range and just spam Earthquake?

Yeah, but Tatsumi’s RE would probably make him resist it and eventually become immune. Though, if Pupitar takes the time to amp its Attack and reduce Tatsumi’s defense, it’s possible for it to one-shot him to avoid dealing with the RE. Even then, Pupitar has Normal and Dark type moves that probably wouldn’t be affected by Tatsumi’s RE.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Why is being used as an argument Pokemon Mystery Dungeon? The game where pokemons are basically humans. And to begin with, wasn't agreed a few months ago that Pokemon works don't scale betweem them unless they are of the same continuity and that each of them should have different profiles? And even before that from memory PMD was always treated at its own weird thing.

Edit: Looking at the verse page it seems that things were indeed separated:

Note: This verse is under heavy construction due to recent changes deciding that the verse is not composite. You can see those discussions here and here.

So yes, PMD is it's own thing that don't scale to the rest, so there is no point in bringing that to the debate.

 

[Psychomaster35]

Eh, the current revamps to decompositing everything in Pokémon is taking quite a while to finish up, and some of these profiles still have IQ moves from Mystery Dungeon listed in their profiles. So it may as well be spending fun while it lasts until all new scalings are brought up in the future thread.

 

[Popted2]

so what would be Pupitar first move?

Because one thing Tatsumi could do is rushing to him, Using invisibility to make him catch him off guard and then hit him with the spear

of course it wouldn't one shot but still a cool move,

Tatsumi can become stronger and faster the more he fights, as shown in the scans of his profiles

so even if Pupitar can't spam too much of those statics amp or reduction, Tatsumi will just adapt to it and gain resistances to the reduction meaning it won't work a very much

also he has analytical prediction so he can at least predict Pupitar movements

 

[Psychomaster35]

Typically buffing themselves. Since it’s shown in Mystery Dungeon that speed amps grant the users extra turns to do more moves, the most logical thing would be to use Dragon Dance before proceeding to do their strongest moves to finish their opponents off quickly. It’s true that Tatsumi may start resisting stat reductions after a while thanks to his RE, but it’s not like he can be fully immune to the effects since he can still be affected by time stop, at best just reducing the reduction rate to a very low one. And even then, it would only activate when hit once or twice by that specific attack which would mean at best Pupitar can only land 2 stat reductions (1 stat reduction at worst) before RE kicks in.

Even if Tatsumi can predict his opponent’s moves, can he even react to someone moving 4x faster & stronger before having it handed to him? How fast is his stat growth during battle?

 

[Popted2]

after the first Tatsumi will be immune to static reduction, and even after being hit the first time the effects will not be so reductive thanks to RE

Even if Tatsumi can predict his opponent’s moves, can he even react to someone moving 4x faster & stronger before having it handed to him?

stronger? depends, Faster? well definetly not unfortunally

How fast is his stat growth during battle?

lets see, he can easily overpower characters comparable to him after a few clashes

and his hits get stronger everytime he try hit



i will call some supporters to help me

 

[PrinceofPein]

How fast is his stat growth during battle?

Ah I like doing this every single time hahahahaha
His growth is this fast,
The first time he and Budo clashed, he was pratically one shotted with a punch by Budo, His armor gave way after which he was imprisoned, then he escaped, then he met Budo again.
Now the next time they clashed, he could take an attack from Budo's Teigu head on
After, Tatsumi needed to tag team with Leone to fight Budo, to which Budo said he was going easy on them to catch them alive.
Budo was then surprised that Tatsumi was now resistant to lightning, since it worked previously
Tatsumi and Budo started exchanging blows, to which Tatsumi started gaining the upper hand.
After which Budo got deadly serious
I should add, that while all this was going on, Tatsumi who could not even scratch esdeath previously, could knock her out of the arena with a punch.
Before he went back to Budo, even Akame was shocked he could hurt esdeath.
Anyway, Long story short, he fought Budo again and took hits, where he was sent away, the the Night raid tried ganging up on Budo, where he one shotted them all, then Tatsumi stood up again and this time he one shotted Budo instead. Not exactly a one shot, but he certainly was now strong enough to send him flying with a punch.


TD:Lr, Unless you can kill him on the spot, the more he clashes with you, he gets stronger, till he is stronger than even the person he is clashing with, so how fast is it? well freaky fast, as seen with the case of Budo, where he went from getting one shotted to be able to hold his own against Budo during the next clash
Also what influences his growth the most is anger and pain, so safe to say the angrier he gets, the stronger he becomes

 

[Imaginym]

Ah I like doing this every single time hahahahaha
His growth is this fast,
The first time he and Budo clashed, he was pratically one shotted with a punch by Budo, His armor gave way after which he was imprisoned, then he escaped, then he met Budo again.
Now the next time they clashed, he could take an attack from Budo's Teigu head on
After, Tatsumi needed to tag team with Leone to fight Budo, to which Budo said he was going easy on them to catch them alive.
Budo was then surprised that Tatsumi was now resistant to lightning, since it worked previously
Tatsumi and Budo started exchanging blows, to which Tatsumi started gaining the upper hand.
After which Budo got deadly serious
I should add, that while all this was going on, Tatsumi who could not even scratch esdeath previously, could knock her out of the arena with a punch.
Before he went back to Budo, even Akame was shocked he could hurt esdeath.
Anyway, Long story short, he fought Budo again and took hits, where he was sent away, the the Night raid tried ganging up on Budo, where he one shotted them all, then Tatsumi stood up again and this time he one shotted Budo instead. Not exactly a one shot, but he certainly was now strong enough to send him flying with a punch.


TD:Lr, Unless you can kill him on the spot, the more he clashes with you, he gets stronger, till he is stronger than even the person he is clashing with, so how fast is it? well freaky fast, as seen with the case of Budo, where he went from getting one shotted to be able to hold his own against Budo during the next clash
Also what influences his growth the most is anger and pain, so safe to say the angrier he gets, the stronger he becomes

It sounds like there was recovery time between those battles.

Perhaps I haven't properly perused, but is there evidence his Reactive Evolution can take effect during the same battle?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

It sounds like there was recovery time between those battles.

Perhaps I haven't properly perused, but is there evidence his Reactive Evolution can take effect during the same battle?

It can yeah, in the final battle alone he evolved through his 3rd, 4th, and 5th forms all the way up to his Tyrant form, but forcing Incursio to constantly evolve runs the risk of him being consumed by Incursio entirely

 

[Ret_of_Guys]

Ah I like doing this every single time hahahahaha
His growth is this fast,
The first time he and Budo clashed, he was pratically one shotted with a punch by Budo, His armor gave way after which he was imprisoned, then he escaped, then he met Budo again.
Now the next time they clashed, he could take an attack from Budo's Teigu head on
After, Tatsumi needed to tag team with Leone to fight Budo, to which Budo said he was going easy on them to catch them alive.
Budo was then surprised that Tatsumi was now resistant to lightning, since it worked previously
Tatsumi and Budo started exchanging blows, to which Tatsumi started gaining the upper hand.
After which Budo got deadly serious
I should add, that while all this was going on, Tatsumi who could not even scratch esdeath previously, could knock her out of the arena with a punch.
Before he went back to Budo, even Akame was shocked he could hurt esdeath.
Anyway, Long story short, he fought Budo again and took hits, where he was sent away, the the Night raid tried ganging up on Budo, where he one shotted them all, then Tatsumi stood up again and this time he one shotted Budo instead. Not exactly a one shot, but he certainly was now strong enough to send him flying with a punch.


TD:Lr, Unless you can kill him on the spot, the more he clashes with you, he gets stronger, till he is stronger than even the person he is clashing with, so how fast is it? well freaky fast, as seen with the case of Budo, where he went from getting one shotted to be able to hold his own against Budo during the next clash
Also what influences his growth the most is anger and pain, so safe to say the angrier he gets, the stronger he becomes

Hm, so it seems like Pupitar has to use Dragon Dance 6 times and then screech once before using Earthquake to get the one-shot, as otherwise Tatsumi's reactive evolution will activate and he'll be immune to stat reduction? Since Pupitar has the speed advantage here this is possible, but is Pupitar intelligent enough to do so?

It can yeah, in the final battle alone he evolved through his 3rd, 4th, and 5th forms all the way up to his Tyrant form, but forcing Incursio to constantly evolve runs the risk of him being consumed by Incursio entirely

Does this apply to second form Incursio?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Does this apply to second form Incursio?

It does yes, he started out that final battle in his 2nd form, but at the same time evolving that much made him jump to High 6-C and 6-A, and also lead to him devolving into a dragon monster

 

[Ret_of_Guys]

It does yes, he started out that final battle in his 2nd form, but at the same time evolving that much made him jump to High 6-C and 6-A, and also lead to him devolving into a dragon monster

This is a 7-B tournament, so he shouldn't be able to RE that high, but this limits Pupitar's options to just retreating and spamming stat amps then one stat debuff before OHKOing...

 

[Popted2]

This is a 7-B tournament, so he shouldn't be able to RE that high, but this limits Pupitar's options to just retreating and spamming stat amps then one stat debuff before OHKOing...

and why Tatsumi would let him retreat?

and why would retreat at the start of the battle? because i don't think his first move will be that

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Hm, so it seems like Pupitar has to use Dragon Dance 6 times and then screech once before using Earthquake to get the one-shot, as otherwise Tatsumi's reactive evolution will activate and he'll be immune to stat reduction? Since Pupitar has the speed advantage here this is possible, but is Pupitar intelligent enough to do so?

This is a 7-B tournament, so he shouldn't be able to RE that high, but this limits Pupitar's options to just retreating and spamming stat amps then one stat debuff before OHKOing...

Put plainly, both have the capacity to reach the maximum stats allowed within the limits of this tournament given the right circumstances, but Tatsumi constantly forcing Incursio to evolve will cause him to devolve into a monster, and outside of stat amping he doesnt really have much a whole lot beyond decent CQC which will gradually lessen the more he merges with Incursio. Pupitar on the other hand does have at least some things that can give it an edge over Tatsumi at that point, stuff like Payback hitting with double damage and Focus Energy increasing the chance of landing a critical hit even with Tatsumi's enhanced durability.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Wait, Pupitar can learn Chip Away, that alone kinda screws Tatsumi over as it just flat out ignores stat amps the opponent has. Tatsumi can amp himself to the peak of 7-B and it wont matter, Pupitar will be hitting him as though he has no amps.

 

[Ret_of_Guys]

and why Tatsumi would let him retreat?

and why would retreat at the start of the battle? because i don't think his first move will be that

Pupitar outspeeds.

Depends on Pupitar's intelligence, honestly.

Wait, Pupitar can learn Chip Away, that alone kinda screws Tatsumi over as it just flat out ignores stat amps the opponent has. Tatsumi can amp himself to the peak of 7-B and it wont matter.

Wait, where? It's not on the Bulbapedia page

 

[PrinceofPein]

It sounds like there was recovery time between those battles.

No there is not, aside the first one shot by Budo where he was afterwards imprisoned

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Wait, where? It's not on the Bulbapedia page

Pupitar (Pokémon)/Generation VII learnset

bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net

Pupitar (Pokémon)/Generation VI learnset

bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net

Pupitar (Pokémon)/Generation V learnset

bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net

 

[Ret_of_Guys]

So Chip Away could be learned by Pupitar before it got cut, which counts right? If that's the case, then Pupitar won't need to amp and can just attack Tatsumi straight away.

 

[Popted2]

what does Chip Away?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

what does Chip Away?

Chip Away (move)

bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net

"Looking for an opening, the user strikes continually. The target's stat changes don't affect this attack's damage. "

"Chip Away inflicts damage, ignoring any changes to the target's Defense and evasion stat stages - positive and negative.

 

[Imaginym]

Hm, so it seems like Pupitar has to use Dragon Dance 6 times and then screech once before using Earthquake to get the one-shot, as otherwise Tatsumi's reactive evolution will activate and he'll be immune to stat reduction? Since Pupitar has the speed advantage here this is possible, but is Pupitar intelligent enough to do so?

Intelligence: Below Average normally (Capable of coherent speech between other Pokémon, a degree of understanding of commands and social situations, and can solve minor puzzles, though still mostly driven by instinct), Above Average in battle as Larvitar and Pupitar (Pokémon are hard-wired for battle and even in the wild can master many moves and fight the likes of Machop which train in all martial arts), Gifted in battle as Tyranitar (Should be superior to 1st and 2nd stage Pokémon and are able to consistently fight the likes of Machamp which have mastered all martial arts, as well as Alakazam)


As for what the Pokedex says about it:
Larvitar, the pre-evolution of Pupitar, has its Pokedex entries all about how, as soon as it's born, & underground at that, it has to eat all of the surrounding soil to get to the surface where its parents are. Larvitar eats a mountain, or a mountain's weight in dirt so it can go to sleep & grow/evolve, becoming a pupa: Pupitar.

Pupitar itself?

Silver	Even sealed in its shell, it can move freely. Hard and fast, it has outstanding destructive power.
Crystal	It will not stay still, even while it's a pupa. It already has arms and legs under its solid shell.

Ruby	Pupitar creates a gas inside its body that it compresses and forcefully ejects to propel itself like a jet. The body is very durable - it avoids damage even if it hits solid steel.

Ultra Sun	This troublesome Pokémon can't wait to evolve, so it relieves its stress by wildly propelling itself around using compressed gas.
Ultra Moon	This dangerous pupa thrashes about. Its shell is as hard as bedrock, containing its gradually forming new body within.

Scarlet	This pupa flies around wildly by venting with great force the gas pressurized inside its body.

TL;DR - What little of its behaviour is described calls it "troublesome" & mentions it can move freely, thrashes about, won't stay still, & explicitly can't wait to evolve.

Sadly, Pupitar's appearances in other media like the anime & manga are very sparse, with few major appearances, & most of them being trainers' Pupitar.

I could maybe see Pupitar doing Scary Face early on, given its descriptions like: "A horrific look that scares the victim, sharply reducing the target's Speed." & "The user frightens the target with a scary face to harshly lower its Speed stat." & such.

But frankly, given Pupitar being stated to be eager to evolve, dangerous, being stated to thrash about, I doubt it'd sit about glaring at Tatsumi very long. It explicitly can't stay still. 'course, that probably does mean Dragon Dance is in character, being that it's described as a "The user vigorously performs a mystic, powerful dance that raises its Attack and Speed stats.", since Pupitar explicitly can't stay still, so it'd probably readily do something vigorous.

Screeching might also be similarly in-character, since it does seem like the sort to express itself so... intensely.

Earthquake might be in-character, especially since Tyranitar casually does them & Pupitar explicitly can topple a mountain with its thrashing, but more in-character moves would likely be Thrash. Hyper Beam might also be in-character, but especially Stomping Tantrum.
Notably, the latter says:
"Driven by frustration, the user attacks the target. If the user's previous move has failed, the power of this move doubles."

Stomping Tantrum's power doubling even happens if the previous move simply missed, rather than failing to affect.
1 of Pupitar's move with a similar effect is Payback:
"The user stores power, then attacks. This move's power is doubled if the user moves after the target."

Hopefully that's helpful & informative, even if it doesn't paint Pupitar in the most positive portrayal possible, presently.

 

[Popted2]

so you're telling me that Pupitar can enhance himself by 6x his AP and 4x his speed and with Chip away he can negate his stats?

well what can i say except get it out of the tournament

 

[KobsterHope07]

Curious, do we assume that wild pokemon have access to their egg moves? I know we don't assume they have access to TM moves but what about egg moves since it requires the wild pokemon to have a specific breeding that allow them to have said moves like Dragon Dance

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Yeah going through some abilities in pokemon this would apply to Tatsumi's stat amping via RE, there are pokemon who get durability amps passively by being in combat (Mudsdale's Stamina, Milotic's Marvel Scale, Gogoat's Grass Pelt, any Ultra Beast with Beast Boost)

 

[WeeklyBattles]

so you're telling me that Pupitar can enhance himself by 6x his AP and 4x his speed and with Chip away he can negate his stats?

well what can i say except get it out of the tournament

Hey at least its not a pokemon with Unaware, that would just hard counter Tatsumi entirely as that makes ALL of the pokemon's moves ignore stat amps

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Curious, do we assume that wild pokemon have access to their egg moves? I know we don't assume they have access to TM moves but what about egg moves since it requires the wild pokemon to have a specific breeding that allow them to have said moves like Dragon Dance

We do yes, it is assumed they are a peak wild pokemon with accessto everything they can get naturally without the use of TMs or move tutors

 

[Ret_of_Guys]

Curious, do we assume that wild pokemon have access to their egg moves? I know we don't assume they have access to TM moves but what about egg moves since it requires the wild pokemon to have a specific breeding that allow them to have said moves like Dragon Dance

The Pokemon Profile does say :

Attacks/Techniques​

Pokémon are assumed to be able to use any level-up moves, egg moves that they'd obtain from breeding, any moves exclusive to the TCG and other media and all of their abilities. If they're a pre-gen 5 Pokémon, then they will have their IQ skills from the first two Mystery Dungeon games as well. These moves/abilities should be listed alongside their descriptions. Pictures are optional, but are recommended.

So yes