Tatsumi vs Pupitar

[Imaginym]

He did not change forms, he was simply in his second form and still getting stronger

I asked about which key because I assumed his rate of Accelerated Development/Reactive Development may differ between keys.

Tatsumi does not need to oneshot, he just needs to get close enough, and then after a few blows, he outskils and stomps

After a few blows, he might not survive, since Pupitar may likely be hitting with 1 or more boosts on top of having started with the AP advantage.
Plus, IQ Skill Shenanigans that may not come up the first clash of blows.

Also, if tournament participants aren't allowed to go above 7-B, that includes Tatsumi, as I understand it.

 

[Popted2]

After a few blows, he might not survive, since Pupitar may likely be hitting with 1 or more boosts on top of having started with the AP advantage.
Plus, IQ Skill Shenanigans that may not come up the first clash of blows.

of Thrash and outrage etc?

Also, if tournament participants aren't allowed to go above 7-B, that includes Tatsumi, as I understand it.

of course none of them would be allowed to go above

 

[Ret_of_Guys]

Tatsumi does not need to oneshot, he just needs to get close enough, and then after a few blows, he outskils and stomps

If Pupitar doesn't decide to use Outrage or Thrash , in which Tatsumi either takes the hit or Tatsumi dodges, Pupitar launches itself far away and Tatsumi has to get close to it again. IQ skills means that Tatsumi's close range attacks have a chance of failing and Pupitar might counterattack if it succeds Also are Tatsumi's moves considered contact and does Pupitar get it's Conquest ability?

After a few blows, he might not survive, since Pupitar may likely be hitting with 1 or more boosts on top of having started with the AP advantage.

With IQ skills, Pupitar already has a passive +1, and if Pupitar's attack missed or failed it gets another +1, on top of any boosts he might have gotten through Dragon Dance. Of course, Pupitar is already hitting the cap if he boosts past +2.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Boy I'm late and this is a long ass thread.
Why's there an assumption that the stat reduction would work? Using the one instance where he doesn't completely resist time stop which is an esoteric ability to all the rest where he immediately resists stuff that he's never experienced before is outrageous.

It's not just his AP that grows but also his speed. Despite being weakened from blood loss, Tatsumi was still faster than enemies who were at least as fast as him and incursio's reaction to this was to strengthen his legs to make him even faster.
When showcasing his growth against Esdeath, the panels have him thinking he needs more power and speed. The next panel depicting the fight show him attacking 6x in a single instance while in the next one his attack counts easily number 15x.
No matter how much pupitar amps, i don't see the speed difference being beyond what he can handle.

Accelerated Development and Reactive Evolution aren't stat amps. AD vs Stat amps is a person getting 3x stronger vs another person using steroids to achieve it. Chip away from the description ignores the steroids but can't do anything against genuine growth

Can't remember the entire argument but what was sandstorm supposed to do again? The dragon that incursio was forged from can adapt to blazing deserts and freezing tundra.

None can go over the AP limit but is there a speed cap? Also how many times can the Pokemon use it's stat amps?

 

[Ret_of_Guys]

of Thrash and outrage etc?

of course none of them would be allowed to go above

Of any move, not just Thrash/Outrage.

Also, how do counters work. Tatsumi presumably starts by attacking Pupitar with a super effective spear attack(x2 multiplier) coming off 33 Megatons, but with IQ skills, Pupitar has -2 Defense (x2 multiplier to damage dealt, but not AP) and has a chance to counter attack for 100% of damage dealt plus boosted by passive +1 Attack(1.5x multiplier).

None can go over the AP limit but is there a speed cap? Also how many times can the Pokemon use it's stat amps?

The Pokemon can go up to +6 with its stat amps, a x4 multiplier, for AP, Durability and Speed, however that's above 7-B already for AP and Durability. I'm not sure if PP is counted here, so I can't answer the how many times question.

 

[Popted2]

you know this whole thread could have been shorter if Pupitar didn't have those boosts and chip away,

i'm never going to use these type of characters in a match

 

[PrinceofPein]

I asked about which key because I assumed his rate of Accelerated Development/Reactive Development may differ between keys.

it does not.

After a few blows, he might not survive, since Pupitar may likely be hitting with 1 or more boosts on top of having started with the AP advantage.
Plus, IQ Skill Shenanigans that may not come up the first clash of blows.

Also, if tournament participants aren't allowed to go above 7-B, that includes Tatsumi, as I understand it.

He will I just sent tens of scans showing him taking hits from people who can one shot him and him also one shotting them the next time they clash

If Pupitar doesn't decide to use Outrage or Thrash , in which Tatsumi either takes the hit or Tatsumi dodges, Pupitar launches itself far away and Tatsumi has to get close to it again. IQ skills means that Tatsumi's close range attacks have a chance of failing and Pupitar might counterattack if it succeds Also are Tatsumi's moves considered contact and does Pupitar get it's Conquest ability?

All of pupitar skills can only get used once before he RE and adapts the next time to them
Also what is conquest?

 

[Imaginym]

He will I just sent tens of scans showing him taking hits from people who can one shot him and him also one shotting them the next time they clash

You mean people who could one-shot him before his Accelerated Development took effect to make it so that he's stronger than them, right?
Except, AP/Striking Strength is capped in this tournament.

All of pupitar skills can only get used once before he RE and adapts the next time to them

I'd question that this isn't NLF. & also hitting Tatsumi enough times with enough advantage, or just enough should succeed, given the statistic cap.
& IDK how he's to "adapt" to Attack Potency/Striking Strength/Durability beyond raising his own when those are capped.

Also what is conquest?

Another Pokemon game, one focused on turn-based strategy. Somewhat like Fire Emblem. IIRC, it takes inspiration from Nobunaga.
Some Pokemon have abilities shown in Pokemon Conquest.

 

[Popted2]

can we reassume the advantages and win conditions for each other?

so Pupitar can use a lot of attacks, tough most of them Tatsumi can resist to them with RE and his RPL get him stronger and faster

Chip away might not be valid anymore since of what Pein said before of not being a stat amp but adjusting his own strengh

if Pupitar use outrage Tatsumi is smart and skilled enough to dodge and become invisible and waiting till Pupitar become confused and hit him

the real problem are the amps of Pupitar, but thanks to Tatsumi own supernatural willpower, awakened power, and Incursio RE can eventually deal with them

i vote Tatsumi, high diff

 

[Ret_of_Guys]

If Pupitar gets it's Conquest ability, then Tatsumi will take 1/8th of max hp whenever he uses an attack that makes contact with Pupitar. Tatsumi uses weapons to attack, but since what constitutes contact is janky in Pokemon (Oshawott uses Razor Shell using a Scalchop, which is a weapon, but it's still contact. Grass Knot is contact despite having no right to be), it could very well be contact. Does Tatsumi's RE allow him to bypass this? Actually, does Tatsumi's RE allow him to bypass stuff like Pupitar's 12% counterattack, 33% chance to cancel close-ranged attacks and stuff like that? My answer to who wins probably depends on this.

All of pupitar skills can only get used once before he RE and adapts the next time to them
Also what is conquest?

Basically what @Imaginym said, although it's an actual collaboration with Nobunaga, despite using Samurai Warriors designs. Pokemon can have up to 3 abilities in that game. For example, Pupitar in conquest has a buffed version of its regular Shed Skin ability, Jagged Edge which deals 1/8th of Max Hp on contact, and an ability which allows it to take damage for its allies thats useless here.

Anyways, going to sleep. See yall tomorrow

 

[Arnoldstone18]

So Pupitar can simply use Scary Face 3 times to reduce Tatsumi’s speed to a fourth and use Dragon Dance 6 times to increase its Attack and Speed to 4x (With each use increasing its Attack/Speed by 50%), which means by then, Pupitar will be 16x faster and will be more likely to blitz depending on how potent Tatsumi’s Reactive Evolution is. Sure, it’s possible he might adapt to resisting its Rock/Ground attacks, but they would still do some damage anyways as it isn’t granting him full immunity like with how he could only move in time stop for 1 second. And with the range advantage, if Tatsumi goes invisible, Pupitar simply uses Earthquake to attack him from there. Screech and Iron Defense makes things worse as using them 3 times will increase Pupitar’s own defense by 4x while also reducing Tatsumi’s own defense by 4x respectively.

And even if we say Tatsumi will eventually become completely immune to Pupitar’s Rock/Ground attacks, Pupitar still has some Normal & Dark type moves that probably wouldn’t be affected by RE.

In other words, it’s really dependent on how fast his Tatsumi’s RE can get before Pupitar amps itself, reduces Tatsumi’s stats, and blitzes.

In addition to what Don’tTalk has said below. Tatsumi’s RE typically allows Tatsumi to adapt to situations once they have been initiated once. Like the way he adapted to poison after one use and so on. He can also adapt to speed reduction by increasing his own speed. It’s definitely going to be the case for the rest of his stats. Like you said these stats reducing moves has to be used after 3-4 uses. So Tatsumi’s RE is more likely to adapt imo.

That’s my two cents for now as I read further into the thread and see if someone has already mentioned this

 

[Imaginym]

can we reassume the advantages and win conditions for each other?

so Pupitar can use a lot of attacks, tough most of them Tatsumi can resist to them with RE and his RPL get him stronger and faster

"It would be a No Limits Fallacy to assume someone with this power can obtain any ability whatsoever. Its extent and complexity only go as far its feats and scaling have gone for it, in relation up to countermeasures to powers that already exist in the setting or similar, in a case by case basis."

I'm partially skeptical that it could give him Resistance to stuff like Earth Manipulation, Draconic Energy Manipulation (Especially when Incursio is made from a dragon's body itself.), Darkness Manipulation, given it's only given him resistance to extreme temperatures, electricity, poison, & time stop, AFAIK.
& even then it can still blast him with Energy Manipulation via Hyper Beam.

He needs to develop a lot of Resistances to resist all of Pupitar's attacks, but it sounds like he only gains resistances 1 at a time, after being hit.

if Pupitar use outrage Tatsumi is smart and skilled enough to dodge and become invisible and waiting till Pupitar become confused and hit him

If he dodges, it can use Stomping Tantrum to hit him with an AoE that's at double strength because Pupitar's previous attack missed.

the real problem are the amps of Pupitar, but thanks to Tatsumi own supernatural willpower, awakened power, and Incursio RE can eventually deal with them

Does Tatsumi have Resistance to Fear Manipulation? If not, Pupitar can drop his Speed with Scary Face, & even once is likely good enough to get some hits in.
Or boost its own & its AP with Dragon Dance.

Or just Sandstorm to obscure Tatsumi's visibility, & then use other attacks, like Stone Edge to make rocks below where Tatsumi stands or Stealth Rock for a homing attack.

& there's the IQ Skills it has, for being in Group C.
I'll omit ones that seem irrelevant:

Course Checker Refrains from attacks that would be blocked by walls or allies.
Item Catcher Can catch a Throwing Item and keep it for its own.
Brick-Tough Adds 10 to max HP. Cannot be turned off.
(Presumably, Brick-Tough is analogous to having a small amount of extra Stamina.)
Concentrator Raises Accuracy by 1 but decreases Evasion by 1.
(May help against Tatsumi trying to dodge.)
Practice Swinger Raises Attack and Special Attack by 1 on the turn after a missed attack.
(Any time Tatsumi dodges, Pupitar's next attack will hit harder, & it has several AoE moves.)
Aggressor Raises both Attack stats by 1 each, but decreases both Defense stats by 1 each.
(More offenses. In theory, Pupitar could compensate for this with Iron Defense, but it's skeptical it'd do this.)
Counter Basher Lowers Defense by 1, and sometimes sends the damage taken back to the foe if the foe is adjacent.
(In gameplay, this is a 12% chance to counterattack adjacent foe for 100% of damage taken. Which'd likely hurt Tatsumi a lot.)
Clutch Performer Raises Evasion by 2 when HP is below 25%.
Extra Striker Sometimes strikes again following an attack.
Intimidator Sometimes causes attacking foe to cringe.
(As mentioned earlier, Cringing is the Mystery Dungeon Game's version of the Flinch status, where, in gameplay, the victim takes no action during the turn they were afflicted with the status. Could definitely create an opening against Tatsumi. Bulbapedia says in detail about it:
"33% chance to cancel an incoming close-ranged attack, regardless of the direction the attacker is facing. PP is still deducted from the attacker. Attackers with Inner Focus are unaffected. Does not affect line-of-sight moves, room-range moves, or thrown items. Can affect allies if they target the Intimidator with a close-ranged move for any reason.")

 

[Popted2]

test

i made that message mostly because i was spent, i let the others talk for now

 

[Imaginym]

i made that message mostly because i was spent, i let the others talk for now

Uh, okay?
Dare I ask why you felt you needed to test the quote feature when you seem quite adept with it?

Nonetheless, I'm also interested in what other people think. & frankly, I'm also a bit tired AtM.

 

[Popted2]

Uh, okay?
Dare I ask why you felt you needed to test the quote feature when you seem quite adept with it?

Nonetheless, I'm also interested in what other people think. & frankly, I'm also a bit tired AtM.

made a mess, i was tired

rest well you too

 

[GoldenScorpions]

Wow, that's an impressive debate.

Have enough conclusions been achieved, to start voting?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Aight gimme a sec i gotta go through 5 hours of debate lol

 

[Ret_of_Guys]

Wow, that's an impressive debate.

Have enough conclusions been achieved, to start voting?

I just woke up and I see that Popted retired from the tournament, but since this is still a thread I can vote on, I'll be giving my vote here.

Pupitar has a lot of attacks, and despite most of them only working once due to Tatsumi's RE, AOE attacks such as Earthquake, Rock Slide, Stone Edge and Stealth Rock will still do chip damage. Sandstorm might only do chip damage once, but it also helps obscure Pupitar from Tatsumi.

Pupitar's IQ skills gives him stuff like a passive +1 Attack boost at the cost of a -1 Defense drop, a 33% chance of making Tatsumi cringe/flinch when using close range attacks and a 12% chance to counterattack for all damage dealth which stacks with Pupitar's passive +1 Attack boost.

While Tatsumi would be able to dodge Pupitar's Outrage/Thrash and attack him while confused, Pupitar still has a chance to attack with Crunch/Headbutt/Iron Head/Stomping Tantrum/Stomp/another Thrash/Outrage, and even if Tatsumi is invisible Pupitar should know what direction Tatsumi is in considering Pupitar knows which direction Tatsumi is in for his counterattack. Pupitar could also break out of confusion early and attack while Tatsumi is attacking him and can't dodge, or when Tatsumi is cringing/flinching and open to attack. Headbutt, Stomp and Iron head has a 30% chance to flinch Tatsumi separate from the 33% cringe chance while Crunch has a 20% chance of dropping Tatsumi's Defense, which will make Pupitar hit harder. Pupitar also has a 12% chance of counterattacking even if Tatsumi does get a hit in.

In addition, Pupitar might be smart enough to only use Outrage/Thrash once and then start using Stomping Tantrum, which is a shockwave so it's harder to dodge, deals double damage if his last move failed, which might be likely if Pupitar was using Outrage/Thrash or confused, while Pupitar also gets another +1 Attack if Pupitar's last attack fails. Even if Tatsumi's RE adapts to that, Pupitar can simply stomp directly onto Tatsumi if he's in close enough range, such as when he's about to attack Pupitar. In this scenario, Tatsumi will find it harder to hit Pupitar and Pupitar will find it easier to hit Tatsumi. Note that Pupitar needs less hits to win than Tatsumi due to having Higher AP. Pupitar also outspeeds Tatsumi.

If Tatsumi's attacks are considered contact, which in Pokemon is strange because stuff like Ceaseless Edge does contact while Gigaton Hammer doesn't despite both using weapons, and Pupitar gets his Conquest ability Jagged Edge, then this becomes much easier for Pupitar as Tatsumi can only hit Pupitar 8 times before being chipped to death, less with Earthquake, Sandstorm, Stealth Rock, Rock Slide, Stone Edge chip as well as any damage dealt by Stomping Tantrum or Crunch. Pupitar can also stall using curse to increase his attack and defense at the cost of Pupitar's speed.

I vote Pupitar high diff, unless Tatsumi's attacks are considered contact and Pupitar has Jagged Edge, in which Pupitar wins mid to low diff.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Pupitar FRA i guess? If we take this match as regular match instead tourney

 

[PrinceofPein]

I cannot believe people are using in game mechanics as arguments here\

I just woke up and I see that Popted retired from the tournament, but since this is still a thread I can vote on, I'll be giving my vote here.

Pupitar has a lot of attacks, and despite most of them only working once due to Tatsumi's RE, AOE attacks such as Earthquake, Rock Slide, Stone Edge and Stealth Rock will still do chip damage. Sandstorm might only do chip damage once, but it also helps obscure Pupitar from Tatsumi.

Pupitar's IQ skills gives him stuff like a passive +1 Attack boost at the cost of a -1 Defense drop, a 33% chance of making Tatsumi cringe/flinch when using close range attacks and a 12% chance to counterattack for all damage dealth which stacks with Pupitar's passive +1 Attack boost.

While Tatsumi would be able to dodge Pupitar's Outrage/Thrash and attack him while confused, Pupitar still has a chance to attack with Crunch/Headbutt/Iron Head/Stomping Tantrum/Stomp/another Thrash/Outrage, and even if Tatsumi is invisible Pupitar should know what direction Tatsumi is in considering Pupitar knows which direction Tatsumi is in for his counterattack. Pupitar could also break out of confusion early and attack while Tatsumi is attacking him and can't dodge, or when Tatsumi is cringing/flinching and open to attack. Headbutt, Stomp and Iron head has a 30% chance to flinch Tatsumi separate from the 33% cringe chance while Crunch has a 20% chance of dropping Tatsumi's Defense, which will make Pupitar hit harder. Pupitar also has a 12% chance of counterattacking even if Tatsumi does get a hit in.

In addition, Pupitar might be smart enough to only use Outrage/Thrash once and then start using Stomping Tantrum, which is a shockwave so it's harder to dodge, deals double damage if his last move failed, which might be likely if Pupitar was using Outrage/Thrash or confused, while Pupitar also gets another +1 Attack if Pupitar's last attack fails. Even if Tatsumi's RE adapts to that, Pupitar can simply stomp directly onto Tatsumi if he's in close enough range, such as when he's about to attack Pupitar. In this scenario, Tatsumi will find it harder to hit Pupitar and Pupitar will find it easier to hit Tatsumi. Note that Pupitar needs less hits to win than Tatsumi due to having Higher AP. Pupitar also outspeeds Tatsumi.

If Tatsumi's attacks are considered contact, which in Pokemon is strange because stuff like Ceaseless Edge does contact while Gigaton Hammer doesn't despite both using weapons, and Pupitar gets his Conquest ability Jagged Edge, then this becomes much easier for Pupitar as Tatsumi can only hit Pupitar 8 times before being chipped to death, less with Earthquake, Sandstorm, Stealth Rock, Rock Slide, Stone Edge chip as well as any damage dealt by Stomping Tantrum or Crunch. Pupitar can also stall using curse to increase his attack and defense at the cost of Pupitar's speed.

I vote Pupitar high diff, unless Tatsumi's attacks are considered contact and Pupitar has Jagged Edge, in which Pupitar wins mid to low diff.

You are not addressing any of the argument, Pupitar has just a single chance to attack tatsumi, before Tatsumi RE and literally stomps, so again none of this argument holds and also stop using game mechanics as argument they are weird, besides tatsumi resists most of his hax, you should read tatsumi profile

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Don't care, make Tatsumi suck his own d*** from losing this! @Imaginym @Ret_of_Guys

 

[Ret_of_Guys]

I cannot believe people are using in game mechanics as arguments here\

You are not addressing any of the argument, Pupitar has just a single chance to attack tatsumi, before Tatsumi RE and literally stomps, so again none of this argument holds and also stop using game mechanics as argument they are weird, besides tatsumi resists most of his hax, you should read tatsumi profile

Tatsumi doesn't resist Earth Manipulation on his profile.

 

[Ret_of_Guys]

Don't care, make Tatsumi suck his own d*** from losing this! @Imaginym @Ret_of_Guys

How bad is Akame ga Kill for you to say this

 

[Popted2]

How bad is Akame ga Kill for you to say this

he doesn't hate the series just the character because of some matches gone bad with him

 

[PrinceofPein]

Tatsumi doesn't resist Earth Manipulation on his profile.

That is what Reactive Evolution is for, you show him a hax, then he resist it, I mean he literally resist paralysis, mind manip, ice manip, lightning e.t.c. and even time stop all from experiencing it once, Tatsumi Reactive evolution allows him to develop resistances to abilities he sees.
Also the Earth manipulation is not killing him so again what else is pupitar using that Tatsumi does not immediately resist.

 

[StrymULTRA]

And he hits with a spear, which I guess would equalize to a Steel-type attack, which Pupitar is weak to.

Steel is not Metal Manipulation here.

 

[Ret_of_Guys]

That is what Reactive Evolution is for, you show him a hax, then he resist it, I mean he literally resist paralysis, mind manip, ice manip, lightning e.t.c. and even time stop all from experiencing it once, Tatsumi Reactive evolution allows him to develop resistances to abilities he sees.
Also the Earth manipulation is not killing him so again what else is pupitar using that Tatsumi does not immediately resist.

Apart from Outrage/Thrash, Pupitar still has Iron Head(May or May not be Metal Manipulation), (Also has a 30% flinch chance), Crunch (Despite being a Dark-type move, it's not actually Darkness Manipulation so Reactive Evolution can't resist it)(Also 20% chance to lower Defense), Assurance(Also not Darkness Manipulation)(Doubles Damage if user has taken damage the same turn, so would only be useful if Tatsumi amps his speed. Also works with Confusion self-hits for some reason), Stomp(30% flinch chance), Payback(Not Darkness Manipulation)(Doubles damage if user moves after target, also only useful if Tatsumi amps his speed), Bite(Why are there so many non-Darkness Manipulation Dark-type moves)(30% chance to flinch), Dark Pulse ("The user releases a horrible aura imbued with ill intent." Is this even Darkness Manipulation? IDK)(20% chance to flinch), Pursuit(Again, not actually Darkness Manipulation, deals double damage against a target against to switch out, although that won't be helpful here), Tackle(Use another move) and Iron Tail(May or May not be Metal Manipulation)(30% chance of lowering Defense by 1 stage), which are not Earth manipulation.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Apart from Outrage/Thrash, Pupitar still has Iron Head(May or May not be Metal Manipulation), (Also has a 30% flinch chance), Crunch (Despite being a Dark-type move, it's not actually Darkness Manipulation so Reactive Evolution can't resist it)(Also 20% chance to lower Defense), Assurance(Also not Darkness Manipulation)(Doubles Damage if user has taken damage the same turn, so would only be useful if Tatsumi amps his speed. Also works with Confusion self-hits for some reason), Stomp(30% flinch chance), Payback(Not Darkness Manipulation)(Doubles damage if user moves after target, also only useful if Tatsumi amps his speed), Bite(Why are there so many non-Darkness Manipulation Dark-type moves)(30% chance to flinch), Dark Pulse ("The user releases a horrible aura imbued with ill intent." Is this even Darkness Manipulation? IDK)(20% chance to flinch), Pursuit(Again, not actually Darkness Manipulation, deals double damage against a target against to switch out, although that won't be helpful here), Tackle(Use another move) and Iron Tail(May or May not be Metal Manipulation)(30% chance of lowering Defense by 1 stage), which are not Earth manipulation.

Which part of you cannot use in game mechanics as argument do you not understand?