5-A Battle Royale

[The_Alpha]

I just wanted to point that Hakumen 100% is stronger than Terumi in the Susano'o Unit.
Even with the Susano'o Unit, Terumi admited that he was weaker than the black beast (his plan was to create a world where he could be stronger than her), while Hakumen was the only one who could trade blows with the beast.

Also, Ragna in his win-quote against Susano'o, says that susanoo isn't strong as that "masked freak"

Let me just go off with saying that the Black Beast isn't a monolithic entity, it's strength is pretty variable, for example the Nox Nyctores are all different Black Beasts, what Susano'o was refering to is very hard to actually interpret.

Him being weaker then Hakumen (according to Ragna) is very strange , and I can explain why. Since Hakumen was effected by Doomsday he was a lot weaker relatively then he was earlier, and Ragna was not affected by doomsday.

Meanwhile, Susano'o isn't affected by doomsday because he has Noel inside of him, effectively making him permanently observed in tip top condition (if this means that he has all of his power or not is up to interpretation) and by default more powerful then Hakumen would be considering he blew off everyone else in the cast beforehand. In the actual fight with Susano'o you also see that Ragna is enveloped by the Black Beast which would amp his power significantly.

Hakumen could also not do shit to the Black Beast until he got his nox nyctores.

Then there's the whole thing with him absorbing Noel, who previously absorbed Izanami, she should be plenty powerful (Ragna also fought her to a standstill if I remember correctly.)

tl:dr Ragna got stronger and Susano'o has a better observer. Also this is just proof to the contrary.

 

[Brunout]

Yea, I know. but the black beast that Hakumen was trading blows with wasn't an ordinary one, since it's size after being inactivated by one year scared even terumi who had already saw a black beast in another event in the past (an event mentioned by Nine in phase shift)


Hakumen being affect by doomsday doesn't makes him weaker than Susano'o. hell, even with noel absorbed, Jin was able to go toe-on-toe with Susanoo with a FAKE body (that was already at its limits).

Susano'o being unaffected by the doomsday(because of noel vermillion, not because of his own power) just means that he has more resistance against HAX.

He also doesn't show to be stronger than he was after absorbing Noel.

And I'm pretty sure that Hakumen 100%> CentralFiction Jin. Since Jin still didn't mastered the PoO, unlike Haku.

Also, Ragna didn't fought Izanami to a standstill. Ragna barely was fighting and Izanami was just toying with him the whole time (But Ragna wasn't using the BlazBlue, either)

Even without the NOX Hakumen already had the power to beat the beast. Ookami was just the tool.

And also, Ragna WAS going to be affected by doomsday. He wasn't affect by the Embryo's "side effects" because he is a outsider. but was going to be affect by the doomsday, regardless.

 

[The_Alpha]

Yea, I know. but the black beast that Hakumen was trading blows with wasn't an ordinary one, since it's size after being inactivated by one year scared even terumi who had already saw a black beast in another event in the past (an event mentioned by Nine in phase shift)

Hakumen being affect by doomsday doesn't makes him weaker than Susano'o. hell, even with noel absorbed, Jin was able to go toe-on-toe with Susanoo with a FAKE body (that was already at its limits).

Susano'o being unaffected by the doomsday(because of noel vermillion, not because of his own power) just means that he has more resistance against HAX.

He also doesn't show to be stronger than he was after absorbing Noel.

And I'm pretty sure that Hakumen 100%> CentralFiction Jin. Since Jin still didn't mastered the PoO, unlike Haku.

Also, Ragna didn't fought Izanami to a standstill. Ragna barely was fighting and Izanami was just toying with him the whole time (But Ragna wasn't using the BlazBlue, either)

Even without the NOX Hakumen already had the power to beat the beast. Ookami was just the tool.

And also, Ragna WAS going to be affected by doomsday. He wasn't affect by the Embryo's "side effects" because he is a outsider. but was going to be affect by the doomsday, regardless.

Jin himself isn't exactly a slouch and was pretty tired from fighting Susano'o for a few moments (although my memory doesn't serve me too well. So I'm going to give you most of everything on the rest)

But I do remember doomsday weakening everyone else, and I remember Ragna making note of this in story mode (round the time where Nu-13 showed up and began attacking everyone)

Thing is also that the statement he makes after a fight (in-game) is probably hyperbole, as he had to give into the black beast in order to tear Terumi out of the unit, whilist he didn't do that when he was fighting Hakumen. The only Hakumen that Ragna ever faced was 20%/30%/Doomsday Hakumen, and he was visually amped by the Black Beast when he fought Susano'o. (In fact his amp was unheard of until he fought Susano'o, which is where it became apparent, when he fought Hakumen for the first time it wasn't there either.)


Also he mentions right after that all "Qualified" souls are being sucked into the boundary, so it's basically that Hakumen's not being observed anymore and- becoming weaker.

 

[Brunout]

yes jin wasn't a slouch and got tired fighting. But he also was using a fake body that, if I remember, was weaker than the original one (I need to play the story again to confirm this)

Yes, Ragna wasn't weakened. But the others were not weaker because of the approach of the doomsday, but because of the embryo side effects.

Ragna wasn't affected because he was a outsider. he wasn't one of the choosen.

That's why Azrael and Naoto were not affected either. Like Ragna, they both came from the outside forcefully (Azrael literally RIPPED his way into that universe with his bare hands, like the monster he is. Naoto came from the boundary)

 

[The_Alpha]

yes jin wasn't a slouch and got tired fighting. But he also was using a fake body that, if I remember, was weaker than the original one (I need to play the story again to confirm this)
Yes, Ragna wasn't weakened. But the others were not weaker because of the approach of the doomsday, but because of the embryo side effects.

Ragna wasn't affected because he was a outsider. he wasn't one of the choosen.

That's why Azrael and Naoto were not affected either. Like Ragna, they both came from the outside forcefully (Azrael literally RIPPED his way into that universe, like the monster he is. Naoto came from the boundary)

You don't understand, they make it very clear that Hakumen is basically returning to the boundary, there's no observer to pull him out of it and this is very clearly because of Doomsday, this is what goes on through the entire game.

Since Ragna was at full strength (and probably as powerful as he was during Chronophantasma, except with an amp that's larger then we've seen before since he was starting to get consumed by the black beast as seen during and after his fight with Susano'o) he's basically at his zenith in that fight.

He also blew off Ragna casually before he amped himself. Then there's also this

Azrael gets beaten by Jin (and Kagura? I think?) before this, and he was at full power when he was beaten too. Azrael is not qualified.

 

[Brunout]

But, Hakumen's soul was already being dragged to the boundary even before the beggining of the doomsday. That's exactly why Kokonoe (and Rachel, in CS) started to observe him.


Like the your own image shows, Ragna (like Azrael and Naoto) was not affected because he wasn't "qualified". Not because he was stronger. So using the argument "Susano'o is stronger because like Ragna he wasn't affected by the doomsday" is invalid, since Ragna was spared of the effects of doomsday because he was not qualified. It has nothing to do with strength.

Yes I know that Ragna in CF is stronger than he was in CP. This was show when he was overpowering base Azrael (who is also not qualified) without the BlazBlue.

 

[The_Everlasting]

This really isn't the place to discuss this, guys.

 

[Brunout]

Just one more thing: Ragna doesn't has any right to say that Susanoo is stronger than Azrael.


Ragna fought ONLY base Azrael. He never saw azrael in his full power, without seals.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Tbh this is an issue with battle royale-esque scenes. Everything and everyone relevant will be questioned alongside feats.

 

[The_Alpha]

But, Hakumen's soul was already being dragged to the boundary even before the beggining of the doomsday. That's exactly why Kokonoe (and Rachel, in CS) started to observe him.

Like the your own image shows, Ragna (like Azrael and Naoto) was not affected because he wasn't "qualified". Not because he was stronger. So using the argument "Susano'o is stronger because like Ragna he wasn't affected by the doomsday" is invalid, since Ragna was spared of the effects of doomsday because he was not qualified. It has nothing to do with strength.

Yes I know that Ragna in CF is stronger than he was in CP. This was show when he was overpowering base Azrael (who is also not qualified) without the BlazBlue.

It's already mentioned that doomsday is working on Hakumen, while he was already fading back into the boundary before CF, it's just going faster. Since it still required amped Ragna to take down Susano'o, that would make the statement during the in-game invalid (as Hakumen was not capable of fending off Azrael in CP, and Ragna was blowing off Hakumen without amping himself, while Susano'o was throwing around Ragna with ease)

Your argument is moot, basically, since Susano'o is stronger then Azrael and base CF Ragna to the point where he can casually handle them- and this is before he got Noel to stop himself from being sucked into the boundary. This makes the win quote useless because he's stronger then all incarnations of Hakumen that Ragna ever met and only 100% Hakumen remains, and it's unfalsifiable at that point because Ragna was basically dead when they met.

I'll drop this now since everyone wants it to be like that, but don't be so assertive about it.

 

[Brunout]

Like. I. Said.


Ragna doesn't has ANY right to talk about who is stronger than Azrael.

Azrael NEVER used not even HALF of his full power against Ragna. All the times that they fought, it was ONLY with azrael at his BASE form.

100% Hakumen with his body is stronger than Susanoo, because of the PoO which makes Hakumen strong as he needs to be in order to fight a threat. If a fight between Susanoo and Hakumen 100% would happen, Susano'o would be overpowered as the fight progressed.

 

[The_Alpha]

Like. I. Said.

Ragna doesn't has ANY right to talk about who is stronger than Azrael.

Azrael NEVER used not even HALF of his full power against Ragna. All the times that they fought, it was ONLY with azrael at his BASE form.

100% Hakumen with his body is stronger than Susanoo, because of the PoO which makes Hakumen strong as he needs to be in order to fight a threat. If a fight between Susanoo and Hakumen 100% would happen, Susano'o would be overpowered as the fight progressed.

I'd whip up a counterpoint to this but the admin doesn't want us to continue.

 

[Kaltias]

How strong are the monsters created by Tiamat? Are they a legit threat in 1v1 or they need to overhelm the combatants with sheer numbers?

 

[PaChi2]

Can't he be BRF'd?

The Unseen Chaos has the mentality of a 12 (?) years old girl, she can expand through time and space (this is what happened at the end of XIII-2) and bring Caius back as many times as she wants (this is stated in LR). So, if you BFR Caius you must separate him from Yeul at the same time, (which at this point is... quite the feat) because otherwise he will be deBFR'd. Yukari may be able to make it, dunno.

Also, is this LR Caius or XIII-2 Caius?

 

[Kaltias]

If i'm reading her profile right, Tiamat needs to be on Earth to have her immortality, right? Also she doesn't have flight or teleportation, so can't Akron just BFR her into space?

 

[NotEvenHuman]

If i'm reading her profile right, Tiamat needs to be on Earth to have her immortality, right? Also she doesn't have flight or teleportation, so can't Akron just BFR her into space?

Tiamat has two different types of immortality, one that requires her to be on Earth and one that doesn't.

And she does have flight, but she needs wings for it, so i don't think it would work in space. But BFR into space is kinda pointless when we have multiple planet busters here. Everyone will be fighting in space. By the way, removing Tiamat from Earth makes her go berserk and increase the production speed of both her monsters and the Chaos Tide, so it's actually a bad move in this situation.

 

[Kaltias]

Back to the previous question, how strong are those mosters individually? Like, can they match the people here AP wise? Because if they can't, Akron would just keep absorbing them forever, becoming stronger as the battle goes on.

 

[NotEvenHuman]

They aren't very strong themselves, but they have Tiamat's Authority of the Beast skill, so they can hurt and kill anything that was born on Earth or is part of proper human history. I don't know how useful that is against Akron, but people like Jin Mo-Ri and Hakumen will probably get swarmed and die.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

people like Jin Mo-Ri and Hakumen will probably get swarmed and die.

Mo-Ri fodderises armies. Taimat's monsters will only be a minor inconvinence to him.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Sir Ovens

It should be noted that those armies tend to be relative fodder compared to him, and he struggles more against those who are on his level (i.e. The Lords of the Heavenly Realm) and could not defeat the latter without damaging all of his Godly Weapons.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

At what level of power are Tiamat's monsters usually?

 

[Reppuzan]

Powerful enough to swarm and harm Kingu, who possessed Enkidu's body and powers and forced Gilgamesh to become a Caster in order to summon more Servants.

 

[NotEvenHuman]

The monsters that forced Gil to class change aren't even the ones Tiamat creates, those were Gorgon's. Tiamat's monsters did almost kill Kingu and Quetzalcoatl though, and they outright killed Gorgon, who is also Large Planet level.

@Sir Ovens The Lahmus have Town level durability IIRC, so of course he's going to kill an absurd amount of them, but they won't stop coming until someone gets rid of Tiamat herself, and at some point Mo-Ri will tire out. Once that happens, he's dead. And he will also have to deal with the Chaos Tide, which gradually damages anyone that touches it and eventually forces them to obey Tiamat. It's usually restricted to the ocean or the ground, but since this fight will probably happen in space, it's going to be everywhere.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

There has already been a Jin Mori v Tiamat thread, and I believe the vast majority said it was inconclusive.

Edit: Also, Authority of the Beast would do nothing to Jin, as he is from the Sage realm, not earth

Just pointing this out, he still goes down against the first decent hax

 

[NotEvenHuman]

IIRC, that thread never really finished, the Chaos Tide being everywhere because of zero gravity was not brought up, and the main argument for Jin was that he would be able to survive by just staying out of Tiamat's range, since she didn't have energy blasts on her profile at the time. Also, that fight was a 1v1. This is a battle royale. He loses a lot of the advantages he had there.

Regardless if he was born on Earth or not, AotB is going to work on him because he's Sun Wukong, and a part of proper human history. Quetzalcoatl is an alien virus that came to Earth on a meteor and it worked on her.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Cross Mo-Ri off the list, the pool is now dominated by hax, which Mo-Ri has almost close to none.

Also, 682 could probably just eat Tiamat after adapting to the large planet level attacks being thrown around.

 

[Joseph619]

How did Darkseid die? He has void manipulation with Omega Beams

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

^ some of those already dead are unjustified on why they're dead

 

[Kaltias]

Necro bump.

Also Akron and Dracula need to be removed. Akron is becoming High 4-C and Dracula is 2-C