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Final Fantasy definitive revision

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I decided to make this post about FF franchise, well it may not be perfect or complete but I hope it helps for something.
Well, I see a lot of people using this scan to say that the FF multiverse is infinite, but to summarize the entire franchise there is only this is to have a very superficial view of cosmology, so I decided to make this post to explain and bring new information about the series, how to explain why there isn't just a multiverse, upper layers and a few concepts.

Physical Realm

This is where the game's universes exist, each one closed with its own laws and concepts and as such they never interfere with each other, it's important to know that because that's what defines why the games take place in different universes or multiverses, because this would contradict the game's own lore (with a few rare exceptions like FFX and VII).

Crystal Chronicles Multiverse: I decided to start with this one because this is where this scan comes in, but before we get there we should see what is said before this scene to explain how the world of this game works, and for starters we can talk about magic first, magic in the game is the ability to exercise your will through the crystal, choose a possible future and make it real, that is, every time someone uses magic, the crystal selects one of the worlds for this magic to happen, because all possible futures are real and it exists inside the crystal, in counterpart with the crystal there is the moon, the moon is nothing more than all the evil purged from the world and banished to the cosmos, so through the power of the moon the villain Galdes obtained a power almost equivalent to that of the crystal, becoming a god and gaining power over all the infinite worlds of the game, all being real, Galdes tried to use that power to find a world where the twins Yuri and Chelinka were not together, but there was no single world for the twins. the brothers were not together, despite being infinite, Galdes then decides to erase the brothers from all worlds, but as explained by King Kolka the brothers' power over the crystal was greater than Galdes' and because of that they obtained power over all of infinite worlds and transcended them, because of that all these worlds, this multiverse, was all under the brothers' domain and they could do what they wanted with them, they used that power to link all futures and destinies to a single point where galdes could not could escape even by changing or creating worlds. I could end here and say that just the fact that the brothers don't exist in any other game in the series would be reason enough to consider them in multiverses apart, but I'll continue with the explanation, well, even the brothers exist in infinite worlds when they arrived in the world of dissidia they mention it was a world they had never seen before and they wouldn't even know if they could go home
And when the other characters were impressed with his ability to travel between worlds and asked if they could visit them, they answer no because their worlds are different and are not part of the possibilities that exist in the crystal and therefore it is considered an impossible world, or that is, they are worlds that are not part of those that exist in crystal chronicles, so it is impossible that the universes of other games are included in this quote.

Type-0 Multiverse: This multiverse is a bit curious, it's all just an experiment created by Dr. Arecia, a Fal'Cie from Pulse (I'll talk about them later) there are infinite universes, all being variations of themselves, when the apocalypse arrives Agito (messiah) must appear in the world or not, if Agito doesn't appear the world is destroyed and the universes reset to start the cycle again, this process is known as Spiral, this process has happened over 600 million times, and according to Hajime Tabata, the creator of the world of Type-0 is Dr. Arecia, so there is no way for other games to take place in these universes because Arecia is its creator and they all exist within Spiral.

• FFXI Multiverse: In this all universes are variations of the same world, Vanadiel, having their own past, present and future, these worlds are contained within a realm known as the Walk of Echoes and can be accessed through the Cavernous maws, each of these worlds have their own crystal which are actually only a small fraction of Vanadiel's mother crystal, however even the characters having knowledge of these universes they still cite the universes of other games as arallel dimensions that they cannot even prove exist.

And this all leads us to Strange of Paradise which defines all these worlds as being dimensions, even though FFXI contains infinite universes it is mentioned to be just one dimension, in the same case with FFIII and XIV where each one also has its own collection of universes but they are just referred to as dimension, and these dimensions not only refer to location but also to time as FFX and FFVII are mentioned to be different dimensions despite being confirmed to take place in the same universe but in different times and planets, so we can conclude that in the franchise there are infinite dimensions and each dimension can contain an infinite number of realities and variations of themselves with their own rules and concepts.

Higher Dimensions

Maybe this is the part that most people don't know about, but the fact is that FF works with higher dimensions, and that's something that's been around since the first game (okay it was the remake actually), and since I mentioned the first game I'll start with himself, with Chaos to be more exact, Chaos is not exactly a character and its nature is more abstract than it seems, Chaos itself is a concept, a formless state where everything collides and denies all existence and this concept manages to manifest itself in the world if needs are met using a body as a vessel, and this explains why Chaos appears in several games or why Garland and Dissidia's Chaos are the same despite being different entities is because they both embody the same concept , Chaos itself is a being beyond space-time and being beyond time in FF is necessarily being from a higher dimension, and as explained by Chronos this higher dimension is to time in the same way that time is to the third dimension, the third dimension for a plane and the plane for a line, a world completely beyond comprehension, making a clear allusion to dimensional analogy, and as you can see in Mobius Final Fantasy the Chaos Card (FFI) is directly mentioned to be a being that transcends space-time, which also leads us to the FF1 remake, well it's not exactly a direct quote to Chaos but to Chronodia, although Chronodia is time it is also mentioned to transcend space-time, and not that it's not a contradiction that he is time and transcends time, because Chronodia is not the temporal dimension but the concept of time itself and that's why our Warrior of Light profile is with "conceptual attacks" for defeating Chronodia.

High dimensions are also mentioned in FFXIII, but before getting there we have to understand how its cosmology works, in the first game basically all the functions of the world are directed by Fal'Cie, it's a kind of gods created by the gods Pulse and Lindizei and that has the function of doing from administrative tasks to creation of the world, so the entire society of FFXIII is highly advanced, entertaining in the second game things are a little more different, since there are no Fal'Cie the humanity had to learn and develop itself all from scratch, is it confirming in interviews that all the technology of FFXIII-2 is sourced entirely from human hands, and what does that mean? Well science and technology developed by humans advanced in such a way that they could even manipulate the 4 dimensions of the universe or create beings with that dimensional structure, an example of this is the cryptic Captain which is a replica of the future of Lieutenant Amodar quoted directly like a 4D life form, or Atlas which is a humanoid machine capable of merging realities just by manifesting, but without a doubt the greatest human creation is the Proto Fal'Cie Adam which is a replica and an attempt to copy a Fal'Cie, Adam was able to manipulate all of space-time so that he could merge past and future and even create alternate timelines and realities in an instant, and it wasn't even Adam himself doing this but just copies created by Adam. Adam, this proves that even a copy of a Fal'Cie copy was capable of creating realities and manipulating 4D structures, and since I mentioned Fal'Cie I should remember that everything in the world was created and coordinated by them, and one of these tasks was to create the monsters and living beings on the planet by the Fal'Cie Titan, one of these monsters is Scrodingher, a being whose description of his items mentions him being a multidimensional life form, and this is not an inconsistency since that Fal'Cies are mentioned to be beings beyond human comprehension, even though human understanding allows them to create 4D beings and structures. Another Fal'Cie worth mentioning is Eden which Adam was inspired by, Eden uses as an Avatar in the world a building known as Edenhall that serves for various administrative tasks entertaining his true body is the entire dimension Orphan's Crandle where infinite functions occur and it is divided into several levels, the first being referred to as Tesseracts (4-dimensional hypercube), and the characters are not even even know if there is an end to this dimension.

In FFXI we also have something similar, but before getting there I need to first explain some concepts, in the lore of the game there are beings called "Avatars" that were created by the goddess Altana, they have that name because they are literally avatars inhabiting the physical world with only a fraction of their power because their true bodies exist on another plane of existence, these avatars are divine beings literally gods capable of creating entire worlds just to serve as a playground, create stories and narratives and be literally authors of these universes dictating laws and rules, among all the avatars one of the most powerful is Atomos, if the true body of the avatars are in another plane of existence the true body of atoms is this plane of existence itself, the whole dimension known as Walk of Echos is the body of atomos and If you remember what I said about Walk of Echos in the part I said about the FFXI multiverse you will know that this realm exists beyond the multiverse, all realities end there, but this is all nothing compared to Altana who exists on a higher plane of existence beyond space-time, neither beings capable of traveling between universes nor even the most powerful avatars are able to reach her domain, and from their perspective all of Vanadiel appears flat even to those who have just arrived at the Empyreal Paradox which is considered merely the gateway to the realm of the gods.

Now going to Opera omnia, there we are presented with a very interesting concept which is the coordinate dimensions, basically every character that arrives in that world has its own dimensional coordinate, this coordinate system shows exactly the position of each character in the space-time where whatever he is, not only that but also what they are plotting, however when entering the Torsion these coordinates lose their function simply because it becomes impossible to track something inside the Torsion with dimensional coordinates, an example of this is the Onion Knight who has the Xande's dimensional coordinates however because Xander entered Torsion the coordinates became useless and the knight didn't know what to do with them anymore, and that's not just because Xande fled to another dimension as characters can also open Torsions, the party I also had Kefka's coordinates but I didn't know exactly where he was inside the Torsion, it was necessary for Materia to put the dimensional coordinates in the portal for her led to Kefka, another example is Golbez who after fleeing to a torsion, Mog even though he could deduce someone's position through their coordinates didn't know where to find him, and what does all this mean? Well if dimensional coordinates is a system that determines an object's position within space and time through its 3 directions and momentum, then it can only mean that Torsion has no time and space, it is a plane beyond spacetime, which connects all worlds, even the one inside Torsion's world needed to leave that dimension in order to use coordinate dimensions.

And all these explanations lead us to what is perhaps the most well-known dimension in the franchise, the Rift, this dimension is connected to all eras and all realities and is known for characters to use to travel between the different worlds of the franchise, the biggest example of this is Gilgamesh who mentions being a Rift traveler and having traveled to different game worlds.
In FFXIII there is a common mistranslation which is to call the Rift The Void or The Void Beyond, but in the original Japanese we see that the two locations are spelled differently, while the original Void is spelled (Mu) which literally means "nothing " and The Void Beyond is spelled =ときのはざま"spacetime Rift" or simply "Rift", an example of this is that both Omega and Gilgamesh are mentioned as Void travelers, when on all other occasions they are mentioned as Rift travelers.

In Dissidia it is mentioned that the Rift exists beyond the world and any world that touches its borders is doomed to disintegrate and disappear into nothingness as if it didn't even exist to begin with, there is no past, present or future in the Rift and it is mentioned several times to transcend space-time, and as I said earlier, to transcend space-time necessarily means being from a higher dimension, not even Chaos that is a being from a higher dimension is able to reach the Rift, we can see that even though Chaos can affect all ages it is endowed with infinite possible futures and all space-times still couldn't cause any influence on the Rift and for those who were there, same worlds with a different time flow did not influence the Rift because the Rift overcomes any form of space, time and stories, in Dissidia it is said that Chaos needed to increase its power to enter the Rift.

Within the Rift there are also several locations such as Serendipity and the Coliseum, all mentioned to exist beyond time, and another known location is the Historia Crux which is mentioned to be a surreal plane of reality that not even the mighty Fal'Cie are able to enter. We can see that even the realm of the gods in FFXI is connected to the Rift and could eventually destroy it completely if it continued to manifest there, and Torsion is another example of this, Gilgamesh manages to enter the world of Torsion through the Rift and in a certain part of the game the party even managing to open torsion cannot leave the isolated space created by Exdeath, however Gilgamesh manages to open the Rift within this sealed space showing that laws and rules do not apply to the Rift. Omega itself could create any spatial or temporal coordinates within the Rift and fill it with life, besides that all the universes and realms there seemed to be mere fiction and therefore could be replicated, Chaos itself an entity from a higher dimension was also considered fiction and therefore could be recreated.

Beyond the physical world

The Invisible World of Valhalla

Valhalla is the capital of the invisible world in FFXIII and was built by the goddess Etro, one of the creations of the God Bhunivelze, existing beyond all, it can be said that here is the ultimate limit of existence, it is said that the Rift itself is actually a simple shadow of Valhalla, something mentioned several times, Yeul mentions that the Rift exists as a shadow in the dark depths of the unseen world, this is where chaos resides so it is usually referred to as the "chaotic kingdom of Valhalla" but this chaos has nothing to do with the chaos we are used to, this chaos is not a being but a species of catastrophic and formless substance, it usually appears to be an ocean but it can also appear like fog or small crystals as chaos is formless and ever changing, and as you can imagine Valhalla is also mentioned exist beyond space-time, it is said that no one knows how long the temple of the goddess has been in Valhalla because in a world where this concept does not exist this question has no meaning, however unlike other places mentioned above, the invisible world demonstrates a superiority to dimensions at a completely abstract and profound level so that concepts are nothing more than trivial things that can be created or ignored, it is said that chaos/invisible world exists beyond any and all forms of concept of space and time and form, that it is also mentioned in Light's official level of FFXIII-2 when Lightning makes the distinction between Valhalla and the multiverse:

Looking back on each one of the things that happened, she came up with a common word: Time.She had walked at the shore without even the slightest hint of fatigue no matter how long she walked. She had also felt a disturbance in her physical perception of time. And, the memories of the future, failure of the general notion of "time" brought all of this into existence.From where did the moogle say he came to Valhalla? It was the "Void Beyond." Does that the place between the realm that possesses a general concept of time, the "Other Side" and the place that lacks a general concept of time, Valhalla?"Makes sense, I guess."After she whispered she realized how comical it was. This place goes against all convention, so what would try to make sense of anything accomplish? No, she had to do something like this to keep her wits about her dela and not become afraid. The fact that she had already lost her wits was a much more simple and explainable interpretation than going on about general notions of time. "(Pag 43)

At the same Light level we can see that Odin communicated with Lightning by creating concepts within her:
"She fell in, getting closer to Odin's chest and then slashed upward. But, Odin's movements were unexpectedly fast and Odin deflected her attack. In that moment, something entered her mind. Something that wasn't a voice and also differed from a vision .
To put it more distinctly, it was as if the concept itself was being imprinted in her brain without using words."



Chaos not only comprises the structure of the invisible world but also forms the essence of humans themselves, it is said that humans were created by the blood of Etro and that their souls were forged from the chaos of Valhalla (soul in this sense refers to the heart or the essence of humans as a being), as chaos is capable of originating concepts, the soul itself, the essence, ends up becoming an idea, the soul is eternal, never dying and never disappearing because chaos itself transcends the concepts of life and death, it is what defines existence and as long as one to remember and believe in her existence the person will exist, something confirmed even in Dissidia, however as soon as the soul is destroyed the idea itself also disappears from existence as if it never even existed to begin with, and as the soul is basically chaos in its essence so some descriptions about the soul serve as a basis for us to understand even more the nature of chaos, and we can say that chaos is basically the source of duality, it exists beyond the concepts of time, space, form, life and death, if we consider reality as a binary code where 1 means to exist and 0 not to exist then chaos would be a number that would mean both everything and nothing, beings with chaos in its waking state exist and not exist at the same time, inhabitants of the Invisible World need to use avatars to manifest in the physical world as in the case of the eidolons that are mentioned to be avatars in Mobius FF, Lightning in FFXIII-2 used an avatar or a "shadow" to appear in the physical world and talk to Sarah, in Mobius FF she also mentions that she is not truly there but using only a copy, the very version of Lightning that appears in the Coliseum is also just a copy and even though it is only one copy she was strong enough to fight Serah and Noel who were strong enough to defeat Omega, in FFXIV Omega had the power to easily destroy the entire Rift and erase it from existence, in FFXII-2 itself Omega is mentioned to have the power to obliterate the entire breadth of existence, yet this version of Serah and Noel had not even arrived in Valhalla yet and had little control over their inner chaos.

Chaos is not limited to anything and exists in all times and places, if Lightning lost her battle against Caius and chaos was thrown into the physical world then all existence would be destroyed and only the Void would remain, an example of this is that he would destroy the universe of FFXIV if Lightning and the warrior of light didn't stop it, and this is not just a collaboration, Eorzea (world of FFXIV) is mentioned by Hope after Lightning receives a miqote costume, the same costume was given by Lightning after her farewell to Eorzea, I know you must be wondering why so existence was not destroyed when Lightning lost the fight and the explanation is given to us in guides where it is said that Lightning by sitting on Etro's throne she became a pillar of all creation because the world itself needed its divine existence to continue existing.

The Void

If the unseen world was the ultimate limit of existence then what comes after that is literally nothing, the nothingness, as this is how the Void is described in Japanes, the Void is the beginning and end of all things, the true nature of everything is nothing, Valhalla itself is said in guides to be just an intermediate world between the physical world and nothingness, the Void overcomes everything and has power over all creation, if universes are destroyed what remains is only the Void, if the Rift is erased there will only be the Void and if the chaos of Valhalla swallows all existence there will only be the Void, basically the Void serves as a background for the entire Final Fantasy multiverse, in FFXI it is revealed to us that the Cloud of Darkness is the Void itself, and I don't say a void but The Void with a capital "V", it is mentioned several times that Cloud of Darkness and Void are synonymous, in other games we can see that she refers to herself as Void including in Dissidia , in FFXIV she is referred to as the supreme ruler of the Void and her skin in Dissidia NT declares her to be the ruler of Void, CoD is not alive or dead she doesn't even "is", as she doesn't even exist to begin with. Prishe in Opera Omnia seems to know CoD as one of the villains of her world, and speaking in the world of FFXI there is a phenomenon called emptiness that creates a void in the crystals and in the interiors of the gods consuming them until nothing remains, even though Promathia has dominion over all darkness and that includes all evil concepts including death itself sees emptiness as the manifestation of absolute death, and yet CoD/Void is said not to be a "mere" emptiness but an entity that encompasses all the totality. The Cloud of Darkness transcends all concepts and all existence is nothing but a simple dream with universes and worlds being born and dying at every moment and existing inside her just like small specks floating inside in your clouds of nothingness, it is itself reason that the world exists and all existence needs her including the cycle gods, Shinryu and the crystals, all subjugated by her as weak, Exdeath himself had no power to face her.

answering some future questions:
Q: What tier would this all put?
A: Well with all the evidence we have, 1-C for chaos, Omega and Shinryu (both are Rift denizens and can destroy it like Omega did) and 1-A for Valhalla denizens and chaos controllers (FFXIII) like Lightning and company, and ultimately 1-A for the Void, Cloud of Darkness should have a new key with its true form (although no one scales with it).

Q: Should everyone who fought Omega or Shinryu have their own Tier?
A: No, since Shinryu and Omega originally exist inside the Rift and most likely their non-Rift versions are just Shinryu larvae and Omega drugs, so only characters who fought them inside the Rift would receive this classification like Serah and Bartz .

Q: If CoD appears to be so powerful why doesn't she show it? A: the answer is simple, just as Lightning and other Valhalla inhabitants use avatars to manifest in the physical world with CoD it is no different, every time she appears in some game she is said to be just a manifestation, her true being resides in the Void and its manifestations are like a force of nature that always changes according to the principles of the world, even Shinryu purifying its manifestation it is said that this is something totally trivial for those who control the power of nothing.

Q: Exdeath merged with Void does that mean he merged with CoD?
A: This never happened, at no point in the game is it mentioned that he merged with the Void not even in the Japanese version, he is just swallowed by the Void and mutates, not even his Neo Exdeath form is immune to the Void as he would be deleted together, i swear i will delete my account if anyone shows a scan or a single quote where it says that exdeath merged with the void.

Q: Exdeath says that the Crystal core of Darkness is a power greater than the Void.
A: Not exactly, Exdeath at that point in the game had no control over the Void so he needed a power to replace it at that moment, and even when the protagonists asked why Exdeath was after some other power in place of the Void, Exdeath replies that the Void is the ultimate power and no other is above it.

And about dissidia, it's hard to talk about because it's said that warriors are actually just summoned memories from other realms so powescalling with dissidia is unfeasible
 
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From what I remember the interpretation of Dissidia's Cloud of Darkness was rejected because it's a bit of a nothing statement on its own, though I'm not really going to go through that at this point because attempting to tackle more of that requires a lot more knowledge of 11 than I currently actually have.

I'm mostly just here to say that you should not use FF14's Cloud of Darkness to support anything for FF3's. They embody entirely different Voids.

FF14's is just one of the rulers of a dimension (the Thirteenth Shard) that has fallen to Darkness and has nothing to do with the Interdimensional Rift/the Actual Void. Like, at all. In any way. They are not even slightly related outside of appearance. She's not even the strongest entity in the 13th Shard as we're starting to find out in Endwalker.
 
CoD appears 2 times in XIV, the second time she is with her dissidia design, a very common mistake they make is to confuse the Void with the World of Darknss in which we face her.
Exdeath mentions having the power of the Void in FFXIV and we all know that the Void he controls is the one that appears in the other games and Cid says that if Omega erased the Rift they would be thrown into the Void, so there's no way this Void could be a world because this would be the same thing as saying that the Rift is inside a planet
 
hmm reading through this. the higher dimensions part does not have anything that suggests it's beyond L1C. could you explain how it's 1-C?
as for the 1-A part. well. nothing you brought up qualifies for 1-A. not without any more context anyway. transcending all concepts or the concept of space and time doesn't net you 1-A by default
btw the scan for the cloud of darkness transcending all concepts is not working :v
 
hmm reading through this. the higher dimensions part does not have anything that suggests it's beyond L1C. could you explain how it's 1-C?
as for the 1-A part. well. nothing you brought up qualifies for 1-A. not without any more context anyway. transcending all concepts or the concept of space and time doesn't net you 1-A by default
btw the scan for the cloud of darkness transcending all concepts is not working :v
literally one of the requirements to be 1-A on this wikia is to be beyond space-time concepts, several verses are classified at this level because of this sweep.

why isn't it working? you didn't even give arguments, as i said before, literally the whole FF verse exists inside her like a dream, same concepts and even Valhalla, she's almost like DC's primal monitor or marvel's Oblivion
 
CoD appears 2 times in XIV, the second time she is with her dissidia design, a very common mistake they make is to confuse the Void with the World of Darknss in which we face her.
Exdeath mentions having the power of the Void in FFXIV and we all know that the Void he controls is the one that appears in the other games and Cid says that if Omega erased the Rift they would be thrown into the Void, so there's no way this Void could be a world because this would be the same thing as saying that the Rift is inside a planet
The second time is a tulpa made by the Warrior of Light and Ryne. I've played the game. The Cloud of Darkness, both of them, are completely unrelated.

Even if they weren't, neither Cloud of Darkness IN 14 is related to each other beyond the Warrior of Light fighting them.

The Cloud of Darknesses in 14 are both unrelated. Do not use them for anything for 3's. They are all different characters entirely.

The Rift stuff is completely unrelated to the Cloud of Darkness, though it is absolutely in the game. There are just two Voids that are completely unconnected to each other. It's one of the weirdest things, yes, but it is absolutely true.

The Void that is referred to for Voidsent is the Thirteenth Shard, a parallel dimension that fell to Darkness.

The Void of the Omega raids is the Interdimensional Rift that connects to the void of the rest of the franchise.

"But why is she in her Dissidia design?"

Unironically it's just fanservice, unfortunately. Elidibus is not literally the FF1 Warrior of Light either despite having the design.
 
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literally one of the requirements to be 1-A on this wikia is to be beyond space-time concepts, several verses are classified at this level because of this sweep.
i mean.. 1-A realms can have space, time etc. being 1-A just means you have aleph 2 number of dimensions or levels of infinity according to the tiering system anyway.
and having no space or time or form as this scan says does not mean they fully transcend those concepts either so yeah what you provided does not give 1-A without anymore context
also would u mind specifying what verses have this? just saying some verses have this justification for 1-A is not much to go off of :v
why isn't it working?
the imgur link returns a 404
u didn't even give arguments, as i said before, literally the whole FF verse exists inside her like a dream, same concepts and even Valhalla,
okay but that does not imply anything higher than a single R-F transcendence which just gives a single layer of infinity.
 
Yes CoD are different beings in each game but as I said before in the question and answer part, your level will not change in any game, it will just add a new key to CoD with its true form (similar to Chaos King which is an avatar of Oblivion at marvel but has separate profiles on the wiki).

And if you play XIV you should remember that the void the characters mention is actually just the Wolrd of Darkness, they use the word "void" just to say that the world is empty and lifeless, similar to emptiness in FFXI
 
Yes CoD are different beings in each game but as I said before in the question and answer part, your level will not change in any game, it will just add a new key to CoD with its true form (similar to Chaos King which is an avatar of Oblivion at marvel but has separate profiles on the wiki).

And if you play XIV you should remember that the void the characters mention is actually just the Wolrd of Darkness, they use the word "void" just to say that the world is empty and lifeless, similar to emptiness in FFXI
Just keep any mention of XIV's voidsent or primal Cloud of Darkness out of it because all that is unironically is compositing with literally zero connection other than name and design and using her to support the main one is legitimately bullshit.

For the voidsent Cloud of Darkness, once again, she's just a regular voidsent of admittedly extreme power. She is very strong, but she is simply just one of the voidsent of the Thirteenth, the World of Darkness, the void.

And yes, I remember that it is ALSO referred to as the world of darkness, but it's also referred to as the void on its own far more throughout the story. That's why you've been confused and mixing terms with this. I don't care about the rest. I think you're wanking her to the extreme, her statements, even if you take her flowery speech about reality being a dream, are just L1-C, because as it turns out the dissidia statement is absolutely meaningless and the invisible world isn't even truly higher dimensional, though I know someone else has much more problems with that, so they might be coming in later. I won't argue against that too much.

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I will add in a bit more context for the two voids in Final Fantasy 14 so people do not get the mistaken idea that they're both connected.

The Void where the Voidsent comes from is the Thirteenth Shard, a parallel dimension that mirrors the Source. Due to the main villains of the time, the Ascians, ******* up, the darkness-aspected aether warped and turned the world into a world fully suffused by darkness. Everyone on that world became a monster, starving for aether.

The Rift where Omega comes from is the Rift that connects to the Final Fantasy Multiverse. Gilgamesh as late as Endwalker left 14's world through that. Omega's storyline does heavily involve this rift, but no one makes any comparison to the other void that has been referred to as the void many, many times in FF14's story.

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So whence comes the second Cloud of Darkness? In Shadowbringers, the main setting is Norvrandt, the First shard. Another parallel world like the Void. Throughout the past 100 years, the world has been in the same process that made the Void, only instead for Darkness aligned Aether, it's for Light aligned. Most of the world outside of parts of one continent have been turned into what is effectively radioactive salt which passively tries to corrupt your soul towards Light.

There is a questline, the Eden Raid series, that has you go out into this part of the world to revitalize it. You do this by summoning primals and killing them in order to infuse the land with aether.

The Cloud of Darkness that is featured here is just one of these primals being summoned in order to infuse the land with Darkness, so that it can begin to grow properly. She is not linked in any way to the 13th shard void, she is not linked in any way to the Rift.

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I do not care if this does not touch any of the other arguments for the Cloud of Darkness, I do not want to see two entirely unrelated characters composited into a third one.
 
it is literally quoted that it is beyond these concepts

scan over CoD transcend all concepts.

Lucifer is an example of being 1-A for being beyond the concepts of spacetime, Warhammer and masadaverse as well
I'm going to leave the invisible world for someone else to deal with. As I said before, I'm not the one who can deal with that argument.

Masadaverse wasn't even 1-A by the time it got yote from memory.

Isn't DC also eventually going to get nerfed to hell and back whether or not it's deserved? Is Lucifer a part of that?

And I know nothing about Warhammer, so it might have its own context behind that.

And I honestly don't care if it says she transcends all concepts, on its own that wouldn't grant 1-A. Like, if you think the Dimensions statement is legitimate L1-C for the Rift, which, hey I do too after looking into it, then she might be 6D L1-C if that gets accepted somehow. It smells really fishy for a statement like that to just grant 1-A with nothing else backing it up and when nothing else in the franchise even comes close to matching it. But who knows, maybe I'm just dumb because Tier 1-A shit is actually dumb to deal with.
 
It's not about transcending all concepts but all the sweep I brought, everything exists within it, same concepts or places that transcend such concepts as the invisible world, high dimension like the chaos dimension, the Altana domain, the Rift itself it exists beyond all these realms and yet it is just a simple shadow of Valhalla, and it all exists within the Void.

If we were to divide by layers it would look like this:

Chaos dimension and Altana Realm = 5D
Rift = 7D
invisible world = 8D
CoD/Void = 9D

HOWEVER, even in FFXI there is an enemy that manipulates the 11th dimension, so this scale would already be wrong

There is no way to transcend all concepts or the concepts of space and time and still be limited by some dimension of time and space, that would go against your definitions simply because yes
 
Yeah none of the arguments you have with the exception of CoD breaks past Low 1-C, and even with CoD you’d need proof she’s specifically transcending the concept of dimensions if that’s a concept in the series.
 
I already showed that Valhalla is beyond these concepts, and as I said FFXIII works with dimensional geometry because it works with things like Tesseracts, multidimensional spaces, High dimensions.

The Rift is beyond the high dimension (Chaos domain and Altana), and overlaps any spatial and temporal dimension, Omega cites that within the Rift he could create any spatial and temporal coordinates and fill it with life, and yet the Rift is just a shadow of Valhalla.

all that I said is in the post, multidimensional life form, coordinate dimensions, Tesseracts, higher dimensions, dimensional analogy, all this I already showed that the verse works so there's no reason to say that the scans over Valhalla are vague
 
Where does it say it transcend these concepts? All I see for Valhalla is the concepts of time or space doesn't exist, that doesn't mean transcendence.
 
But dimensions are time and space, when we talk about infinite dimensions we are talking about dimensions of time and space, so several characters are listed as 1-A here for transcending the concepts of time and space as diverse from vertigo, Penyswise and Dungeons and Dragons
 
But dimensions are time and space, when we talk about infinite dimensions we are talking about dimensions of time and space, so several characters are listed as 1-A here for transcending the concepts of time and space as diverse from vertigo, Penyswise and Dungeons and Dragons
vertigo is getting downgraded. Dnd and dark tower has infinite dimensions with both father lymic and penywise being beyond them. FF isn`t. Don`t bring other verses into it
 
According to the Tiering system, it is not necessary to have infinite dimensions
 
There are literally tons of texts and scans that I brought in the part where I explain about the higher dimensions, I won't repeat what I already said, you say it's parallel dimensions but it's literally quoted as higher dimension (Chaos and Altana) and even Chaos was not able to reach or affect the Rift, the Rift in turn saw Chaos itself as fiction and could also encompass any dimensional coordinates, and yet the Rift is referred to several times as "a simple shadow of Valhalla".

And maybe you didn't understand but when you said about 1-A having to transcend the concepts of dimension, this refers to dimensions of time and space, so "transcend concepts of dimension" = "transcend concepts of time and space" because dimensions in the dimensional analogy (which wiki uses) are time and space dimensions

Anyway, I think we need the opinion of someone responsible for creating the Tiering System
 
Higher Dimension doesn't automatically mean 1-A, that's still Low 1-C at best, and where's the scan that says it transcends the concept of time and space? Cause all I see is the concepts of time and space don't exist, not the same thing.
 
No, it's not, and it wasn't meant to be, the scan on the High dimension is to show that verse works with dimensional geometry, along with everything I brought up like the realm of Altana, the Torsion that is not affected by dimensions of coordinates, the Fal'Cie responsible for creating multidimensional lifeforms, the Rift that transcends them all as fiction, with all of this we literally have a layered system on the verse, and Valhalla transcends that system on conceptual levels, and yes it transcends and is not merely devoid of them as we see it at every moment in the game being referred to as being "beyond"
We can see that it is literally quoted that Agito needed to transcend to reach the Invisible World.
 
Where does it say Agito needs to transcend to reach the invisible world? Cause neither scan mentions the invisible world. And again, where's the statement that it's beyond the concepts of time and space? Cause your only scan that mentions concepts of time and space for valhalla is that it doesn't exist, not that it transcends the concept.
 
It is mentioned throughout the game and in Dissidia that it transcends time and space, however in Ultimania Omega that we use as official information this is further elaborated by saying that it is not merely about transcending time and space but the concepts, otherwise they would not give the job of putting this in the Guidebook.

And the "true purpose of Agito" mentioned in the above scan refers to precisely the chosen one to go through the gate of Etro and transcend to Valhalla.
 
Again, no concepts of time and space is transcended, give me the scans that it's flat out said the concepts of time and space, or dimensions is transcended.
 
Transcendence for the Agito simply means finding and going through Etro's Gate, to get the Unseen world and Etro, not the Agito transcending themselves.
 
Bro, you are no longer saying anything with anything, these questions I already answered, the meaning of the word "transcend" is literally "go beyond" and it is mentioned that Valhalla exists beyond time and space, the scan about not having these concepts in the world invisible is just an additional information to say that this "beyond" is beyond concepts, apart from that it is literally quoted that the Rift transcends space-time and spatial, temporal and dimensional coordinates, and the Rift is just a shadow of Valhalla, and we still have the mention where it says that Agito will literally transcend to reach Valhalla
 
And yet you have still not sent me any scans whatsoever that proves it transcends the concepts. You're not remotely paying attention to my argument, give me the scan that it says it transcends the concepts of space and time.
 
Again, it is mentioned all the time in the game that the Invisible World is beyond space-time, the ultimania scan is just additional information to say that this "beyond" is beyond concepts.

This discussion seems like it will never end and I want this update to go forward, so let's agree with 1-C anyway
 
But true CoD is based on being 1-A, as it says on the Tier explanation page, it's possible to be 1-A without having infinite dimensions, as long as such a character serves as a background for your verse, and CoD is literally that, a void of non-existence that transcends all concepts with all existence existing within it
 
low 1-C would just be Chaos, the Rift transcends space-time-time including the Chaos dimension so that it looks like fiction.

And the Rift is just a shadow of Valhalla, using the dimensional analogy "a shadow" would be a dimensional projection of an object in a higher dimension to a lower plane, like for example an object being projected by a light will generate a two-dimensional shadow, just as a two-dimensional object being projected into a light will cast a one-dimensional shadow, so the Rift is a shadow of Valhalla and is infinitely larger.

The only question would be in relation to CoD, so I wanted the opinion of someone responsible for the Tier System page
 
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