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- #41
If someone can mark the person to give their final opinion and we can apply the updates soon
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Final Fantasy definitive revision
- Thread starter Zer00Negativo
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- final fantasy
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not really. the qualifier there is to show that the entity in question is completely independent from the layers or dimensions in the setting. u gotta prove that this entity is completely transcendent over any number of dimensions. what you showed here is just a R-F relation which is just adds a layer or a single dimension to it. it is not 1-A without any more context
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- #43
Yeah but CoD is mentioned directly transcending all concepts, this would include space, time, dimension, duality, existence itself, because these are all concepts and must be included in "all concepts" even a Hilbert Space (infinite dimensional space) is just a concept in our reality, apart from that the Rift is mentioned superimposing any spatial, temporal and dimensional coordinates
Cartesian coordinates - Math Insight
Illustration of Cartesian coordinates in two and three dimensions.
mathinsight.org
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Not really no. Saying it transcends all concepts is not enough, you would need to explicitly prove that it transcends these specific things, not just say it does. Also even if it does do all that, transcending infinite dimensional space grants only Low 1-A, not 1-A.
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dude that's NLF. by using the same argument you could easily say that they're beyond tier 0 since theoretically there's a concept for that. you need specific statements that say the entity in question is beyond the concept of dimensions entirely. just vaguely saying that they transcend all concepts is not enough
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- #46
you are taking the scans individually instead of linking them all, CoD is beyond all concepts because all existence exists within it like a dream, even realms beyond concepts of space-time, dimensions beyond coordinates and the ocean of Chaos that from origin to existence and non-existence
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Pretty sure everyone looked at the scans together (because this is a cosmology thread, we need to link everything together) and the conclusion everyone seems to get is all of this together does not come close to 1-A.
The CoD at most gets Low 1-C.
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You need actual proof that she's specifically transcending the concept of dimensions for this to pass as 1-A, without that that wouldn't really add anything beyond type 2 transduality.
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- #49
low 1-C would be like putting CoD on the same level as Chaos dimension and Walk the Echos (this in turn exists below the realm of Altana), both realms exist in a lower form than the Rift which in turn is a shadow of Valhalla , when CoD emcompass all this
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If i got everything right, it's more or less:
Universe (4D) < Chaos (5D) < Rift (6D) < Valhalla (7D)
So it's baseline 1C.
1C is good, 1A isn't IMO.
Universe (4D) < Chaos (5D) < Rift (6D) < Valhalla (7D)
So it's baseline 1C.
This part here does talk about the concepts of time and space not applying to the Invisible World, but not applying =/= transcending.
1C is good, 1A isn't IMO.
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that was changed a few months ago. you can still use spatiotemporal transcendence to prove 1-A tho.
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- #52
Yeah but it's like I said before, the scan of Valhalla not having concepts of space and time is an additional information from Ultimania to say that transcending the space-time mentioned in the game refers precisely to the concepts (which is also mentioned in the Light Novel), so if you join both scans it would look like this: "Valhalla exists beyond space and time, where these concepts don't exist there"
Not forgetting that Valhalla is the last level before reaching the Void so it must necessarily transcend all the levels mentioned before
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- #53
Nice we are making progress, but I still think we need the opinion of someone responsible for the Tier system
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Ohhh
I guess that both the requirements of it being beyond/transcend conceptual time and space are met then? Yeah you're right that we need someone more knowledgeable about the tiering system here.
Anyway, i don't see this being less than 7D.
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uh… bump?
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- #56
I can't send message to Ultima
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Theglassman12 seemed to make sense above.
@CrimsonStarFallen @DarkDragonMedeus
What do you think about this?
@CrimsonStarFallen @DarkDragonMedeus
What do you think about this?
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Like I have been saying on nearly every attempt in the OP (No offence intended) has made, I agree with Glassman. Absolutely nothing seems to warrant 1-A and even the Low 1-C proposal I'm rather conflicted, but I could see some possibility.
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- #60
didn't even give arguments...
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You should message then Don'tTalk or Ultima on their walls then to have a look on this.
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Based on what I remember Ultima saying on other threads, "Beyond" simply means outside by default and not quite above. So it's still vague for it to be Low 1-C let alone 1-A. Also, it just says beyond dimensions, there's no mention of it being above the "Entire Abstract concept of dimensions" unlike some of those whataboutisms. And Dimensions in this context clearly just means parallel universes, not spacio-temporal dimensions. Which makes it even harder to consider such a vague statement 1-A and it would still be Low 1-C at best even if literal. But it still needs to be considered that "Beyond" doesn't always mean above by default. Simply existing outside a 2-A sized multiverse could warrant them being above baseline 2-A, and also could warrant Acausality type 4, but it is not Low 1-C without further depth.
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- #65
No, they are not universes, it is literally mentioned that the dimensions are the line, plane, depth and time and the Chaos dimension is a higher dimension that transcends these 4
in addition to being mentioned that the dimensions are coordinate dimensions.
besides having a direct mention of multidimensional beings
The realm of altana is literally mentioned to be a higher plane of existence where the entire multiverse of Vanadiel appears flat.
The Rift transcends all the domains mentioned above so that they look like fiction, even Chaos would have to infinitely increase its power in battle cycles to be able to open a door to the Rift, in addition to being mentioned that it transcends space-time including the Chaos dimension
The invisible world literally has the same description as the top/God tier of Vertigo/DC and other verses I already mentioned
And the Void has basically the same descriptions as characters like Overvoid, Oblivion and Azathtoh (not saying it has the same level)
in addition to being mentioned that the dimensions are coordinate dimensions.
besides having a direct mention of multidimensional beings
The realm of altana is literally mentioned to be a higher plane of existence where the entire multiverse of Vanadiel appears flat.
The Rift transcends all the domains mentioned above so that they look like fiction, even Chaos would have to infinitely increase its power in battle cycles to be able to open a door to the Rift, in addition to being mentioned that it transcends space-time including the Chaos dimension
The invisible world literally has the same description as the top/God tier of Vertigo/DC and other verses I already mentioned
And the Void has basically the same descriptions as characters like Overvoid, Oblivion and Azathtoh (not saying it has the same level)
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- #66
Also remembering that not long ago Arceus was upgraded to 1-C for merely transcending space-time, FF works on this concept in much more depth
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There are points in this thread was used long ago and while I'm not saying they're being used out of context and stretching it here, it was a a big problem in that ancient thread. Back then, I don't recall having seen anyone calling that out but even the stretched points still wasn't enough to get accepted. So, if you want to get this through, spend more time and effort to back up your arguments because it's going to be very difficult.
Sniper670
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Oh you mean the Distortion World?
Sniper670
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Tbh, the evidence given here is better than for Arceus.
After thoroughly reading the crt least low 1C
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it's really hard when no one makes a convincing argument other than those who go against the wiki system itself.
Arceus is low 1-C because time and space (Dialga and Palkia) are aspects of it, but this is literally the same description of Chronodia in FF1, it transcends space-time while these concepts are just aspects of it.
dante is also in 1-C but the dimensions are not even mentioned being spatial dimensions or demonstrating dimensional superiority to the universe, could very well be spiritual dimensions or metaphysical equal in buddhism.
And that's why I didn't even mention Hyperdimension Neptunia which is 1-C for the simple fact of using coordinate dimensions, things I've also mentioned in this article
Hyperdimension Neptunia Explanation Page
Unimaginative title aside, this is a page explaining how Neptunia's scaling works, and why characters are placed the way they are. Feats, statements, and otherwise logical conclusions will be used for justifications towards these placements. This page is in coordination with the (at the time of...
vsbattles.fandom.com
That's why I said we needed someone responsible for the tiering page to give their opinion
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Tbf, in Arceus case, Spatial World, which is Palkia itself, are a realm higher than the infinite universes. Since he’s the concepts of space that encompasses the 3 dimensional of the lower multiverse and his realm is the counterpart to Dialga’s Temporal World of the fourth dimension that is time, Palkia’s realm qualified as Large Extra Dimensional 4D space. Arceus’s realm is a higher realm even to that and is a part of it, who is said to transcends everything.
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From what I can gather after checking out on some of your scans, Low 1-C seems to be the best case and is legit. Based on the higher dimension scan, there is a 5th layer of dimension that has its relationship with time just like time to 3 dimensional of space. But time still apply to things in this higher dimension, so transcends time and space in FF is simply reaching this layer of dimension without necessarily being detached from time. A lot of “beyond time” scans that actually worked for me is simply not having the concept of it, which’s not a justification for a higher level of infinity. One of them even described as being isolated from time. So yeah, Low 1-C is the only possible proposal and it would be great if it get through. Though, many scans just won’t work for me so there might be something there to push it higher.
Sniper670
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TrueBK98 you missed this?
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Lots of links broke for me so I can’t say how true or wrong that is.
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I personally think the OP's proposal is rejected, although Glass seems to be okay with Low 1-C which I will note I'm unsure about.
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Honestly with how all over the place this revision has gotten it should be closed. If and when the group does get around to playing the games with the tier 1 scans we'll push for the upgrades when we see the full context, as of now Idk what can be used here to argue tier 1 and don't wanna risk the pages looking like a clusterfuck.
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