(3-2-0) Sans is the boss of another Evil Route (Sans vs Noelle Holiday)

[StrymULTRA]

Saw this on Discord few times and with this animation I could not resist:

• Speed is Equalized
• Starting distance is 10 meters.
• Dark World Noelle during Snowgrave is used

Also realized this affects the Top 15 Non-Smurfs.

Sans (0.008803 Tons): 3 - TheOrangeGuy09, DaReaperMan, ShionAH

Noelle (0.075 Tons physically, 1.08 Tons with Snowgrave): 2 - koopa3144, StrymULTRA

Incon:

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Sans FRA

 

[koopa3144]

So if Noelle gets a chance to attack Sans is pretty screwed since IceShock is gonna spawn right on top of him so this prob comes down to if Sans kills her with his first attack. I think I'm leaning towards Noelle surviving Sans first attack more often than not even if it's not by much since she does have experience dealing with Danmaku from the Cyberworld Darkners and from Berdly and should be able to avoid just enough not to immediately die.

 

[Catbowtie]

Erm, SI Win Condition. It's too easy.

 

[koopa3144]

Erm, SI Win Condition. It's too easy.

Sans' SI got nuked in his most resent profile revision so it isn't combat applicable now.

 

[Catbowtie]

What?

Edit: Yeah it is. This fight couldn't happen because its out of character for Sans to fight Noelle. His Clairvoyance reads that Noelle hasn't killed anyone, basically equal to Pacifist Frisk, and that means Sans doesn't want to kill her. Doesn't help that his Enhanced Extrasensory Perception will tell him Noelle's feelings at any given point.

I know State of Mind and all, but Sans starting with Danmaku hydrogen bomb on Noelle after receiving all that information on her leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

 

[koopa3144]

What?

Iirc a while back in this crt his SI that let him talk down foes from him convincing Frisk to spare him agreed to be removed and changed to the feats listed on his profile rn which aren't super combat applicable.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Edit: Yeah it is. This fight couldn't happen because its out of character for Sans to fight Noelle. His Clairvoyance reads that Noelle hasn't killed anyone, basically equal to Pacifist Frisk, and that means Sans doesn't want to kill her. Doesn't help that his Enhanced Extrasensory Perception will tell him Noelle's feelings at any given point.

Tbf that’s a misconception, he would have killed Frisk at any route if not for the promise, so he would likely do that to any human. That needs to be changed.
On the other hand, given that Noelle is a monster, he likely wouldn’t be willing to fight her (or at least go all out) and be chill.

Although I’m still not buying into DR characters landing attacks and ignoring distance anyways, but I, uh, frankly don’t care much.

 

[StrymULTRA]

His Clairvoyance reads that Noelle hasn't killed anyone, basically equal to Pacifist Frisk

Dark World Noelle during Snowgrave is used

Womp womp

 

[Catbowtie]

They kill in Snowgrave?

 

[AThe1412]

They kill in Snowgrave?

Snowgrave is explicitly stated and heavily implied to be a fatal attack so yes.

 

[StrymULTRA]

They kill in Snowgrave?

You didn't play the game? No wonder you glaze Sans so much.

Because it's clear that in Snowgrave those are kills, what do you think happened to that Pink Addison or Berdly?

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Womp womp

On the other hand, given that Noelle is a monster, he likely wouldn’t be willing to fight her (or at least go all out) and be chill.

 

[StrymULTRA]

On the other hand, given that Noelle is a monster, he likely wouldn’t be willing to fight her (or at least go all out) and be chill.

You know that State of Mind exists, right?

Plus he has matches against Papyrus and Asgore lolz.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

You know that State of Mind exists, right?

State of double standards but right.

Plus he has matches against Papyrus and Asgore lolz.

Fair enough.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Anyway, I personally vote Noelle here.

Considering that UT and DR are considered completely different verses, I don't think that many of Sans' 4th wall shenanigans realistically apply here (given they're quantifiable only in UT, really), and he has little to no answer to Noelle's IceShock just... spawning on him.

Sure, IceShock needs some time before fully hitting the opponent (as it needs all 3 of the "snowflakes" to appear), but Sans does not have much experience with attacks that straight up appear on him, the best he dealt with was Frisk's attacks (which are all melee strikes) and arguably Flowey's pellets, which don't spawn on the opponent either.

Sans himself also leads with TK, but Noelle's LS easily shrugs it off. I do think that Sans can win if he still manages to avoid IceShock and KR Noelle to oblivion, but I personally buy him being caught from it more times than not.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Sans himself also leads with TK.

It’s more of a gravity manip specifically for soul since it can fly.

I do think that Sans can win if he still manages to avoid IceShock and KR Noelle to oblivion, but I personally buy him being caught from it more times than not.

If that’s dodgeable, his IA will easily cover it. If it is not, then it’s just a stomp.

 

[StrymULTRA]

It’s more of a gravity manip specifically for soul since it can fly.

Orange, here is Class K vs Class 10. It's literally over hundreds of times of difference.

If that’s dodgeable, his IA will easily cover it. If it is not, then it’s just a stomp.

Not really. Back when both were just Low 2-C, MUI Goku lost against Reimu because despite his IA, he had no feats of dodging consistently something on the level of Reimu's danmaku, but it wasn't deemed a stomp.

So I think the same applies here.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Orange, here is Class K vs Class 10. It's literally over hundreds of times of difference.

The thing is it was not really a TK, Frisk was able to freely jump and not just completely pinned. This was just a change of gravity direction. Even description says it just adds weight to the soul and gives gravity.
Even game recognizes that soul modes are specifically on souls.

Not really. Back when both were just Low 2-C, MUI Goku lost against Reimu because despite his IA, he had no feats of dodging consistently something on the level of Reimu's danmaku, but it wasn't deemed a stomp.

Whataboutism. I don’t know the verses, or what the people were arguing, their mindset, etc.

Give me a good reason to why IA won’t allow someone who dodged the attack while sleeping to dodge that stuff. If the reason is “it’s undodgeable”, then he dodges with ease.

Don’t forget speed equalization rules mean that his reactions are still higher. Add IA to that.

 

[StrymULTRA]

The thing is it was not really a TK, Frisk was able to freely jump and not just completely pinned. This was just a change of gravity direction. Even description says it just adds weight to the soul and gives gravity.
Even game recognizes that soul modes are specifically on souls.

Frisk has Peak Human LS tho...

You know that Kars was immune to Sans' Blue Mode for this exact reason, right? You'd have to revise how it works on vs threads.

Whataboutism

It's just how it works on this Wiki lol.

Give me a good reason to why IA won’t allow someone who dodged the attack while sleeping to dodge that stuff. If the reason is “it’s undodgeable”, then he dodges with ease.

Unless you somehow are telling me that Sans is somehow capable of no-diffing this because of his feat of dodging a knife stab in his sleep, then I think you'd know what I am talking about.



You're NLFing here, we rate things based on feats, we ain't assuming Sans is clearing things that are waaaay beyond his caliber because he's cool, ok?

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Frisk has Peak Human LS tho...

And they still are not pinned to oblivion without being able to jump against Class 5 “TK”?

You know that Kars was immune to Sans' Blue Mod for this exact reason, right?

Another whataboutism.

You'd have to revise how it works on vs threads.

I don’t see a rule here though.

It's just how it works on this Wiki lol.

Which is sad, given it’s not right.

Unless you somehow are telling me that Sans is somehow capable of no-diffing this because of his feat of dodging a knife stab in his sleep, then I think you'd know what I am talking about.



You're NLFing here, we rate things based on feats, we ain't assuming Sans is clearing things that are waaaay beyond his caliber because he's cool, ok?

That’s… not the same thing? One is insane crazy danmaku that you will NOT be able to simply dodge like Sans does (it’s like Asriel 2nd phase, there are very few people who no-hit it), second is an attack that spawns right on character.

Also found this.

 

[StrymULTRA]

And they still are not pinned to oblivion without being able to jump against Class 5 “TK”?

Because his Blue Mode is brief, its technique is not to lock Frisk on the ground.

Another whataboutism.

This is a shit argument. It's not even a different verse, it's Sans also facing an opponent with way more LS than his TK.

Either you make something to remove the Kars match from Sans' profile, or Noelle also negs that by existing.

I don’t see a rule here though.

It's just how it works here. It has feats? Cool, it does not have feats, then nada.

Which is sad, given it’s not right.

You at this point are just arguing by your own standards and are explicitly arguing against how it works here, making this discussion pointless.

That’s… not the same thing? One is insane crazy danmaku that you will NOT be able to simply dodge like Sans does (it’s like Asriel 2nd phase, there are very few people who no-hit it), second is an attack that spawns right on character.

And Sans has no feats comparable to either!

Also found this.

This is wrong because of Gravity increase being harder because it amplified your own weight, you'll ofc having trouble moving yourself at x10 gravity, as you'd have to move 600 kg of body weight now.

It's just how it's treated on Wiki, and ain't even the first Sans fight where his TK was invalidated. Queen stomped Sans right because of this.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Because his Blue Mode is brief

Literally used for all Sans’ attacks after first?

its technique is not to lock Frisk on the ground.

So you agree that it’s gravity manip, not TK.

This is a shit argument.

Whataboutism? Yeah, pretty bad.

It's not even a different verse

Isn’t that guy a JoJo or smth?

it's Sans also facing an opponent with way more LS than his TK.

TK sure, Gravity Manip? No.

Either you make something to remove the Kars match from Sans' profile

Sure

or Noelle also negs that by existing.

Wut

It's just how it works here. It has feats? Cool, it does not have feats, then nada.

It has feats of changing gravity, I can even argue that Sans has no real TK, which really should be the case.

You at this point are just arguing by your own standards and are explicitly arguing against how it works here, making this discussion pointless.

So you’re really saying that whataboutism is a legit point? Literally, I give an argument and you say “but what about this???? or that???? or stuff you never cared about or engaged in????”

And Sans has no feats comparable to either!

Sans has no feats dodging to a gun. This means gun will blitz him. Your logic.
You may as well delete IA or write “applicable only against a kid with a stick”.

This is wrong because of Gravity increase being harder because it amplified your own weight, you'll ofc having trouble moving yourself at x10 gravity, as you'd have to move 600 kg of body weight now.

Then why don’t all heavy LS users just fly?

It's just how it's treated on Wiki, and ain't even the first Sans fight where his TK was invalidated. Queen stomped Sans right because of this.

Whataboutism, third time.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Literally used for all Sans’ attacks after first?

It never fully immobilizes the Peak Human LS Frisk.

Whataboutism? Yeah, pretty bad.

Argument you cannot counter thus you hide behind that word.

Isn’t that guy a JoJo or smth?

Both Jojo and Deltarune are not Undertale, so Sans would have same issues with both.

So you’re really saying that whataboutism is a legit point? Literally, I give an argument and you say “but what about this???? or that???? or stuff you never cared about or engaged in????”

It's just how the wiki works. You not liking it is not a rebuttal.

Sans has no feats dodging to a gun. This means gun will blitz him. Your logic.

False equivalence. One thing is a single attack that comes in your way with a visible motion, another is something that straight up appears on you without you seeing any trajectory.

Then why don’t all heavy LS users just fly?

Don't need to. They can just walk.

Whataboutism, third time.

Cry me a river if you actually cannot refute it.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

It never fully immobilizes the Peak Human LS Frisk.

Exactly, my point. It’s not TK.

Argument you cannot counter thus you hide behind that word.

It’s not an argument, it’s “look at that”.

Both Jojo and Deltarune are not Undertale, so Sans would have same issues with both.

And how is that “not even a different verse”?

It's just how the wiki works. You not liking it is not a rebuttal.

Proof? Where is “whataboutism is a key part of debate here”?

False equivalence.

One thing is NLF, another is False Equivalence. Great. Not double standards.

One thing is a single attack that comes in your way with a visible motion, another is something that straight up appears on you without you seeing any trajectory.

Frisk’s slash was supposed right on him while he was sleeping, yet he dodged.

Cry me a river if you actually cannot refute it.

“Oh look at that” needs not to be countered.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Idk bro you're just arguing against how this wiki always treated Sans' Blue Mode for the sake of making him win at this point.

I can't really debate if you dismiss everything as "whataboutism" without giving an actual reason. If you want to make Sans' Blue Mode bypass physical LS, you'd need to make a CRT for that (though that was rejected a fuckload of times).

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

The main subject is not even that, it is IA.

 

[StrymULTRA]

And there I already did reply with the fact that IA is restricted by the feats, you don't play the dishonest card by saying "then he can't dodge guns" when I don't think that dodging a gun is remotely comparable to something that straight up appears on your body without any warning.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

When you sleep, stuff appears right in front of you as well. Sans dodged in such situation. It’s comparable. Instructive Reaction is that — dodging even to a sudden, unexpected attacks that you had no clue about.

Gun example was just to show what the strict application of “no feats = not applicable” leads to.

 

[StrymULTRA]

You know that Sans lost to Kris for this exact same reason, correct?

You'd have to remove the fight if you wanna argue this lol.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

You know that Sans lost to Kris for this exact same reason, correct?

Doesn’t Kris have save-load? I remember they were gray or smth and something among lines they are not canon, but generally assumed it’s same as Frisk.

If not, then sure, I will.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Kris did not have that when the match was made, aye.

 

[ShionAH]

Tbh Sans dodging literal pure determination has some stupid implications

 

[StrymULTRA]

Tbh Sans dodging literal pure determination has some stupid implications

huh

 

[ShionAH]

huh

Empty Gun

The Empty Gun is a weapon item sold by Bratty and Catty, who reside in the right alleyway at the MTT Resort. Its defensive counterpart is the Cowboy Hat. According to Bratty and Catty, it was found (along with their other wares) in Waterfall at the garbage dump, explaining its empty cylinder...

undertale.fandom.com

 

[Arkansalter2]

Whats stopping sans from dodging?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Whats stopping sans from dodging?

The fact that the thing straight up spawns on him because of Noelle's attacks bypassing distance.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

IA will cover it FRA.

Sans dodges and wins via danmaku & dura neg.

 

[ShionAH]

Idc about the fight but Deltarunes whole attack thing is really wanked, it aint undodgeable it just doesnt require range

 

[StrymULTRA]

I disagree with IA 100% covering everything that's remotely dodgeable, as we ain't making Sans dodge danmaku that's above the paygrade of what's shown in UT either.

But vote counted anyway.

Deltarunes whole attack thing is really wanked

You could've just opposed the CRT ya know.

Edit: It's not even the first time we don't assume that a character can't dodge such attacks without feats. It's why Batter won against Sakura.