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2-B Undertale is a literal headcanon

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Rodri_Dante said:
I dozed off everytime I tried to understand the 2-B ratings: In the previous thread because I couldn't find the arguments in the sea of replies, here because I have been awake for 18 hours.

And no, I haven't even read the profiles in a while, I just found this thread and got tunnel vision with the fun values.
Click to expand...
The argument is: "Everytime any DT user resets, they change into a new timeline. Since they can reset indefinitely, there is a seemingly ever so increasing number of timelines"

The reason why they believe every reset = a brand new timeline being accessed is based on Sans' statement.
 
Bump. Seriously, the reasoning for 2-B is the weakest one in the wiki, we need to address it.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
There really should be a timeframe before a thread is made right after an upgrade was just concluded before attempting to U-turn it. No rule against making a downgrade, but it really should be a few days at bare minimum before a U-turn thread is made.
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Rodri_Dante said:
I dozed off everytime I tried to understand the 2-B ratings: In the previous thread because I couldn't find the arguments in the sea of replies, here because I have been awake for 18 hours.

And no, I haven't even read the profiles in a while, I just found this thread and got tunnel vision with the fun values.
Click to expand...
Please I require an input from you.

The only reason why we believe Undertale is 2-B is a shaky interpretation of a single line of dialogue, and a lot of headcanon.

"Sans says we're making timelines stop and start. This is referring to reset (headcanon). Thus each reset "starts" a new timeline. (headcanon). Thus we have potentially infinite timelines (headcanon)".

It's not valid...
 
Ok so, my hot take:
In-game, resets don't seem to be treated as going to a new timeline, but rather just going back in time.
Otherwise, why would several characters vaguely remember pre-reset events? Wouldn't those memories be left behind in the timeline that supposedly "stopped"?
But let's say that you do indeed go to a new timeline: Why are we treating "stopping" as "this timeline still exists somewhere" when "until suddenly, everything ends" is meant to be what Chara does at the end? Aren't stop and end interchangeable in most contexts?

How to actually calculate how many timelines exist at the same time is beyond me, it really requires a lot if interpretation.
 
Rodri_Dante said:
Ok so, my hot take:
In-game, resets don't seem to be treated as going to a new timeline, but rather just going back in time.
Otherwise, why would several characters vaguely remember pre-reset events? Wouldn't those memories be left behind in the timeline that supposedly "stopped"?
But let's say that you do indeed go to a new timeline: Why are we treating "stopping" as "this timeline still exists somewhere" when "until suddenly, everything ends" is meant to be what Chara does at the end? Aren't stop and end interchangeable in most contexts?

How to actually calculate how many timelines exist at the same time is beyond me, it really requires a lot if interpretation.
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It does, the lines from Sans require so much headcanon to make the current rating work, it's actually insane.

The only way we can measure the timeline is via the FUN values. For an upgrade so insanely high (100 timelines to +25000 timelines), the evidence is nearly non-existent.

Do you agree with the downgrade?
 
No one gave a valid reason to disagree, what the ****?

We're literally depending on THREE LAYERS OF HEADCANON.
We're not giving it a possibly or likely, you biased debater!
 
StrymULTRA said:
Whatever this CRT goes through, the 2-B justification is written really poorly and needs to be changed.
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It won't go through. The Staff and supporters refuse to engage with it. The whole reason why the Wiki considers the resets to be new timelines is due to Sans saying timelines are starting and stopping - this is the single line of dialogue holding the entire rating together, it's so weak.
 
I forgot about this thread rip, apologies for that.


I still stand by a 2-C possibly/likely 2-B, just because there is only one line implying that to be the case doesn't disprove it at all, matter of fact knowing that there is a line in the game that supports such an interpretation should grant such a tier, just not a solid one, with the 'possibly/likely' covering the ambiguity of such a statement as mentioned already. It's not like the 2-B interpretation is coming from nothing after all, if it was I would 100% agree with this CRT, but evidently there is something in the game that implies that Undertale is this size, which should grant something, I feel. Admittedly I'm not sure where your getting this 'headcanon' thing either btw, I would appreciate if you would elaborate on that specifically pls :unsure:
 
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I think a justification should be something like this

Chara: Low Multiverse level (Destroyed the whole of the Undertale world as a game, erasing all of its reality, timelines and files, then recreated it using a True Reset, with the Undertale world containing 100 Timelines, as Sans mentions that the timelines stop and start from Frisk/Flowey's Resets, reffering to them going in a new timeline between the number 1 and 100 under the Fun Values), likely Multiverse level (As Sans implies that at every Load made from Frisk or Flowey they do not encounter the same Sans but a new one, it's likely implied that at every Load or Reset a new timeline is generated. It should be noted that there's no real limit to how many Resets can be performed, as Flowey has implied several times to be able to Reset over and over without an actual limit, as also shown from him performing Resets so many times until he saw every possibility, set of number and lines of dialogue the Underground and its inhabitants can offer or also failing in making Asgore show him the Human SOULs despite trying hundreds of ways, meaning that the game can host all the possible timelines generated from Resets, even if said Reset is repeated over and over Ad infinitum)

Asriel Dreemurr: Low Multiverse level, likely Multiverse level (Claimed to be able to destroy the Undertale world if he didn't want to just reset it with a True Reset, making him comparable to Chara, who has used the True Reset to restore the entire Undertale game after erasing it, as with Chara's adopted view of the world he has originally intended to gain the power of 7 Souls to destroy everything, and in the Genocide Route he believed to work together with Chara for this plan until Chara betrayed him. Has "infinity" as attack value, making him the strongest monster in all the game. After not messing around anymore, he made the world slowly end)

Frisk's Durability, Human SOULs and The Player's justification won't change btw, only the rating.
 
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Roachman40 said:
I forgot about this thread rip, apologies for that.


I still stand by a 2-C possibly/likely 2-B, just because there is only one line implying that to be the case doesn't disprove it at all, matter of fact knowing that there is a line in the game that supports such an interpretation should grant such a tier, just not a solid one, with the 'possibly/likely' covering the ambiguity of such a statement as mentioned already. It's not like the 2-B interpretation is coming from nothing after all, if it was I would 100% agree with this CRT, but evidently there is something in the game that implies that Undertale is this size, which should grant something, I feel. Admittedly I'm not sure where your getting this 'headcanon' thing either btw, I would appreciate if you would elaborate on that specifically pls :unsure:
Click to expand...
No. I don't have to disprove anything - on the grounds that Sans line don't prove anything in the first place. We're already going off a false piece of evidence. You needed to prove 2-B was valid - you didn't, we approved anyway because people really wanted 2-B Undertale to be a thing.

It's one possibility of the line conveying the information, it's one possibility of the line of the line even talking about resets in the the first place.

It's not even a strong possibility, it's weak and depends on A LOT of assumptions, it's headcanon for a very high rating. We don't even give Possibly for something that has zero support or solice - that's like giving Possibly Low 1-C for one statement of "transcending" in the series - we literally won't do that because transcending doesn't prove 5D, doesn't even allude to it. Same thing with Sans' line, it doesn't prove 2-B, nor does it allude to it.
I need to appeal to whataboutism because this is so unreasonable. @Maverick_Zero_X, a literal staff, is supporting this logic, and it's such bullshit... I feel wronged.

But no, because the supporters like 2-B Undertale, and staff refuse to hate a debate or engage with this thread, we suddenly need to give a "possibly" for one piece of evidence which is extremely weak and assumption based, requiring a LOT of things being right which aren't even supported. The possibility exists, it's so infinitesimally small and headcanon-y, it's unreasonable, unresonable, to give a possibly rating over it.


I'm sorry, it's just bias for 2-B Undertale, you unfortunately don't have a point.
 
This is so absurd, ridiculous. People just ignore the thread, are clearly biased, or disagree with a logic that wouldn't be accepted in any other situation.
Do I need to be someone with high credibility so I'm taken serious or something?
Why won't most people who would be interested in upgrading Undertale to 2-B are actively trying to pretend the thread doesn't exist or just jumping the Disagree FRA train? This is so horrible.
 
TioKill said:
Sans doesn't imply that, that's literally the problem.
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Just out of curiosity, if he in't implying loads make other sans-es just after he forced you to load, and then mentions other sans-es

what is he mentioning here? if loading didn't make another sans for you to speak to, why did he even mention other sans-es after killing you?
 
FarerPurple said:
Just out of curiosity, if he in't implying loads make other sans-es just after he forced you to load, and then mentions other sans-es

what is he mentioning here? if loading didn't make another sans for you to speak to, why did he even mention other sans-es after killing you?
Click to expand...
What the line says is:
"Timelines stopping and starting"

On it's own the line doesn't imply anything. It just tells us something is capable of stopping and starting the timelines. This can be about load and save which stop the timelines to start them from an earlier point - not even about resets. So that's the first assumption.

Also assumes "starting" implies a new timeline, it doesn't necessarily. So that's the second assumption.

It's nothing to give a full rating.
 
TioKill said:
What the line says is:
"Timelines stopping and starting"
Click to expand...
Thats... not the line you replied to? you replied to his post-sparing text after coming back from sparing him.

what does he mean by saying;

"woah, you look REALLY pissed off...
heheheh...
did i getcha?
well, if you came back anyway...
i guess that means we never really WERE friends, huh?
heh.
don't tell that to the other sans-es, ok?"

'well, if you came back anyway' is mentioning your loading ability, and he says just afterword 'don't tell that to the other sans-es, ok?'

why is it assumed he changes subject mid-dialogue to mention other sans-es?
 
FarerPurple said:
Thats... not the line you replied to? you replied to his post-sparing text after coming back from sparing him.

what does he mean by saying;

"woah, you look REALLY pissed off...
heheheh...
did i getcha?
well, if you came back anyway...
i guess that means we never really WERE friends, huh?
heh.
don't tell that to the other sans-es, ok?"

'well, if you came back anyway' is mentioning your loading ability, and he says just afterword 'don't tell that to the other sans-es, ok?'

why is it assumed he changes subject mid-dialogue to mention other sans-es?
Click to expand...
Ah yes.
The "other sans-es" doesn't imply it's a new one, just that there's other ones, more than one. And it's not even implied the version before the load are the "other sans-es", that one could be about different timelines Sans-es when you reset.
 
TioKill said:
Ah yes.
The "other sans-es" doesn't imply it's a new one, just that there's other ones, more than one. And it's not even implied the version before the load are the "other sans-es", that one could be about different timelines Sans-es when you reset.
Click to expand...
Why would he be mentioning something about a reset, on the topic of a load? from the sounds of it you seem to be trying to convince people that he switches topic from load to reset within two sentences? it sounds more believable that he'd stay on topic from his previous sentence than to switch abruptly.
 
FarerPurple said:
Why would he be mentioning something about a reset, on the topic of a load? from the sounds of it you seem to be trying to convince people that he switches topic from load to reset within two sentences? it sounds more believable that he'd stay on topic from his previous sentence than to switch abruptly.
Click to expand...
He doesn't switch. He says "I got you?", the other sans-es isn't about the load.
He talks about resets during the entire battle, he has already established that multiple timelines exist and that the anomaly jumps between them, he meant that - if Frisk resets, that they wouldn't tell the fact they were never friends (something Sans only speculates to happen in another path earlier in the fight) to the other Sans of that timeline. This confirmation bias is just... annoying
 
TioKill said:
No. I don't have to disprove anything - on the grounds that Sans line don't prove anything in the first place. We're already going off a false piece of evidence. You needed to prove 2-B was valid - you didn't, we approved anyway because people really wanted 2-B Undertale to be a thing.

It's one possibility of the line conveying the information, it's one possibility of the line of the line even talking about resets in the the first place.
Click to expand...
  • timelines jumping left and right” refers to loading SAVEs and whatnot
  • timelines “stopping and starting” refers to RESETS, stopping a old timeline and starting a new one.
Admittedly I didn't think there was much of a problem with this interpretation, it seemed to me quite simple, really.
TioKill said:
It's not even a strong possibility, it's weak and depends on A LOT of assumptions, it's headcanon for a very high rating. We don't even give Possibly for something that has zero support or solice - that's like giving Possibly Low 1-C for one statement of "transcending" in the series - we literally won't do that because transcending doesn't prove 5D, doesn't even allude to it. Same thing with Sans' line, it doesn't prove 2-B, nor does it allude to it.
I need to appeal to whataboutism because this is so unreasonable. @Maverick_Zero_X, a literal staff, is supporting this logic, and it's such bullshit... I feel wronged.
Click to expand...
Whoa Whoa calm down dude, it aint such a big deal, no need to feel this way fam.

There was a statement about transcending in Undertale? can you point me to it I don't exactly remember that, but I feel that this is kind of a false-equivalence, at least from what from what im getting of this response. Please, look at my view here, If we consider Sans statement as what I already stated above, in that RESETs create timelines, and then we consider how many RESETs we can do, plus floweys shenanigans, I feel there is a possibility for 2-B, I fail to understand the problem with this, really, especially when I'm settling with a possibly/likely here.
 
TioKill said:
It's not even a strong possibility, it's weak and depends on A LOT of assumptions, it's headcanon for a very high rating. We don't even give Possibly for something that has zero support or solice - that's like giving Possibly Low 1-C for one statement of "transcending" in the series - we literally won't do that because transcending doesn't prove 5D, doesn't even allude to it. Same thing with Sans' line, it doesn't prove 2-B, nor does it allude to it.
I need to appeal to whataboutism because this is so unreasonable. @Maverick_Zero_X, a literal staff, is supporting this logic, and it's such bullshit... I feel wronged.
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How does one compare this to transcending? With no further context and the verse in question is just 3D, they would be Low 2-C (4D)
But if it was 4D and you transcend it, you would be 5D (at least if you were view it as fiction I think)? Not sure why you're comparing it to 2-B Undertale (which at this point I don't agree should be a full on rating, but should be at most a "possibly")
 
Roachman40 said:
  • timelines jumping left and right” refers to loading SAVEs and whatnot
  • timelines “stopping and starting” refers to RESETS, stopping a old timeline and starting a new one.
Click to expand...
Could be the reverse too.
Roachman40 said:
Whoa Whoa calm down dude, it aint such a big deal, no need to feel this way fam.

There was a statement about transcending in Undertale? can you point me to it I don't exactly remember that, but I feel that this is kind of a false-equivalence
Click to expand...
How?
How is the equivalency false here?

No, there's no transcending statements in Undertale - it's an analogy.

Both statements are non-definitive, and singular pieces of evidence that require wild assumptions to be valid for their respective rstings. The trascending statement means nothing without context, so we don't use it as the sole evidence for even Possibly Low 1-C even though the meaning of Low 1-C is still one of the possibilities. The sans statement means nothing without context, so we shouldn't use it as the sole evidence for even possibly 2-B.
 
TioKill said:
Could be the reverse too.
Click to expand...
Could be, although I dont really get that admittedly, RESETs merely causing the timelines to jump around doesn't really seem to follow the RESETs function, from what I see.
TioKill said:
Both statements are non-definitive, and singular pieces of evidence that require wild assumptions to be valid for their respective rstings. The trascending statement means nothing without context, so we don't use it as the sole evidence for even Possibly Low 1-C even though the meaning of Low 1-C is still one of the possibilities. The sans statement means nothing without context, so we shouldn't use it as the sole evidence for even possibly 2-B.
Click to expand...
How are they wild assumptions exactly? what else could sans be talking about here other than the SAVEs, LOADs, and RESETS. Like said, if we take the sans statement as RESETs being capable of creating new timelines, which I feel seems to be the case, and then also take how many RESETs have occurred, then 2-B is definitely still possible my amigo, at least to me. you get what I mean, right?
 
Roachman40 said:
Could be, although I dont really get that admittedly, RESETs merely causing the timelines to jump around doesn't really seem to follow the RESETs function, from what I see.
Click to expand...
RESETs makes the timelines jump in period too, yes. That's why it's terrible.
Roachman40 said:
How are they wild assumptions exactly?
Click to expand...
You missed the mark.
The fact it's a possibility through assumptions - which is all that is. is not enough to give a possibly rating, that's my point. It has neve been.
You don't seem to understand that one line of dialogue alone is the weakest piece of evidence known to man, to top it off with ambiguity and headcanon to make it work - then we shouldn't be indexing it as a tangible possibility especially when it's not shown in any capacity in any shape way or form during the game. And the second assumption too, assuming "starting" is alluding to new timelines when that's not necessarily the case too, you're ignoring the fact we need to layers of assumptions to make this work.
Also the number of timelines is completely off the rails, they also require some wild assumptions with Flowey. It's all screwed.
 
StrymULTRA said:
Dude, if there are over 10 people out here supporting 2-B Undertale and you keep vomiting the same points over and over in different wordings, tf should I say to you?
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Not being a toxic prick is a choice you definitely could've made, but nah apparently acting like a 10 year old with "cry more" was more appealing. Appeal to popularity isn't a comeback either - bias is a thing, there's at best 6 people supporting this, and half of them didn't even give a reason, any have yet to counter my points about how flimsy and shakky the evidence is. Seriously, get out of your own god damn head for a second - this entire rating is being held together by interpreting a line in a specific manner twice in the same sentence, I have to explain over 30 times how this interpretation has no solice and "regurgitate" this because of their insistence in Stonewalling with "Nah, but it's possible so we should index it". Or "Nah, you're just wrong".

If they never attempt to attack my counters, how the actual **** should I react other than trying to put it in perspective for them?
You don't have an argument, you don't have a point. If you're too afraid of confronting the fact the evidence you support is non existent, then just leave the thread already. For ***** sakes.
 
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