2-B Undertale is a literal headcanon

[TioKill]

"Well, that didn't last f**king long" — TFS Vegeta

---

Hello. So, I have issues with how high Undertale is currently asserted to in the 2-B tier, as it's based on incorrect information, and lines taken out of context. I do not intend to downgrade it to Low 2-C, like it was before, I am well aware and accept Undertale's Multiverse. The quantity of timelines is what worries me.

Number of Resets are considered to be timelines​

---

This is where the problem comes in. Basically, we currently consider that each reset travels to a new and untouched timeline. Since we can reset as many times as we want, that's a potentially infinite number of timelines we can access, thus meaning Undertale is Multiverse level.


The line used to say it's new is: "Timelines stopping and starting.", the argument is that; since Sans didn't say re-start, that must mean the timelines we go to are always different to the one we are currently in.

Yes, the term "starting" is the sole reason why resets are allowed to go past the limit of 100, which of course doesn't work.

The problem is, "starting" can be referring to something that has started in the past. Dictionary.

You "start" your game/console, even though you've played it before, for example. And the new timelines already exist before Frisk goes to them, so if you want to argue the term restart, it would apply to them in either case, making it a dull point to make.

Also, must I say, the "Start and Stop" line was never confirmed to he referring to the resets. Ever! It could be talking about SAVEs and LOADs, which stop a timeline, and starts it again from an earlier point. This interpretation outright contradicts the 2-B rating as a whole - and it's far more likely. We should not be giving ratings based on literal headcanon, seriously.



Conclusion

• Undertale should be downgraded to At least 2-C (100 Timelines), as they are the only verifiable quantity of timelines available.

VOTES

Agree (5): @Roachman40 (With possibly/likely 2-B), @InfiniteDay (Possibly 2-B), @Eseseso, @Reiner, @Rodri_"Dante" (Staff)
Neutral (1): @NothingToDebateWith
Disagree (3): @Guardian_Doge, @CosmicWreck, @FarerPurple

 

[InfiniteDay]

It never ends.

 

[Iiliminal]

Oh boy

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

There really should be a timeframe before a thread is made right after an upgrade was just concluded before attempting to U-turn it. No rule against making a downgrade, but it really should be a few days at bare minimum before a U-turn thread is made.

 

[DivineAura44]

There really should be a timeframe before a thread is made right after an upgrade was just concluded before attempting to U-turn it. No rule against making a downgrade, but it really should be a few days at bare minimum before a U-turn thread is made.

Disagree, all this does is slow down a thread and keep potentially faulty stats on the profile longer. Maybe the upgrades just shouldn't be accepted lightning quick. Not saying it was but...

 

[Guardian_Doge]

The issue with the OP is that the evidence is hand in hand with one another, accepting FUN values as timelines is directly because of the indication that they are possible events, that could happen based on choice. And the nitpicking with sans' dialogue is also flawed because he says right after that everything suddenly ends because it gets reset, proving resets do in fact create another timeline. So yeah basically stinky poo poo I disagree.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

Disagree, all this does is slow down a thread and keep potentially faulty stats on the profile longer. Maybe the upgrades just shouldn't be accepted lightning quick. Not saying it was but...

but nothing. The thread barely closed yesterday after 4 pages of oompa loompa nonsense. It's just tiresome.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

One day undertale will be upgraded to tier 1 so the cycle will never end

 

[Robo432343]

undertale is BOUNDLESS. end of discussion

 

[Arceus0x]

undertale is BOUNDLESS. end of discussion

BASED AND [[kromer]]PILLED

 

[NothingToDebateWith]

undertale is BOUNDLESS. end of discussion

Boundless in terms of having a cancerous fandom. : ^)
Anyway, I disagree on Sans' quote stuff being used for the downgrade, it sounds a little too far off.

 

[TioKill]

There really should be a timeframe before a thread is made right after an upgrade was just concluded before attempting to U-turn it. No rule against making a downgrade, but it really should be a few days at bare minimum before a U-turn thread is made.

This isn't a U-Turn per say. I'm keeping the Multiversal upgrade, but I shouldn't have to wait to point out direct contradictions, and I certainly wouldn't do it in an already concluded thread.

 

[TioKill]

Boundless in terms of having a cancerous fandom. : ^)
Anyway, I disagree on Sans' quote stuff being used for the downgrade, it sounds a little too far off.

It's used as an upgrade. I'm debunking it's use as an upgrade, not using it to downgrade, lmao.

 

[TioKill]

The issue with the OP is that the evidence is hand in hand with one another, accepting FUN values as timelines is directly because of the indication that they are possible events, that could happen based on choice. And the nitpicking with sans' dialogue is also flawed because he says right after that everything suddenly ends because it gets reset, proving resets do in fact create another timeline. So yeah basically stinky poo poo I disagree.

What a silly reply.

No, they do not. If FUN values have a limit of 100, then you cannot claim they are timelines while simultaneously claiming resets create timelines past 100.

You cannot claim both, it's literally a self-contradicting information. "FUN values are timelines, they cap at 100"
"Resets are also new timelines, they go over 100".

No, this is objectively incorrect information.



You also seemed confused about Sans' dialogue. Please read again. I am not nitpicking it, au contrare, the 2-B upgrade stated that the line where Sans claimed the timelines were stopping and starting are evidence of 2-B, simply because Sans didn't use the term "Restarting".
They are the ones nitpicking the line, I'm just replying saying it's not correct and it doesn't correlate.

I don't need to tell you, but "everything ends" doesn't mean the timeline stops existing, just means the anomaly stops there. "everything in what" should be the question, and the context is "anomalies in timespace continuum'.

 

[Greatsage13th]

We are having a tier 1 downgrade CRT for undertale as we speak, can we pause this for a few days!

 

[CosmicWreck]

You also seemed confused about Sans' dialogue. Please read again. I am not nitpicking it, au contrare, the 2-B upgrade stated that the line where Sans claimed the timelines were stopping and starting are evidence of 2-B, simply because Sans didn't use the term "Restarting".
They are the ones nitpicking the line, I'm just replying saying it's not correct and it doesn't correlate.

From Asriel we learn that total resets bring everything back to zero.

Hence, as the weaker versions normal resets are more likely to be identified with "timelines jumping left and right".

Timelines stopping and starting most likely relates, instead, to save and loads (colloquially known as reloads).

I don't need to tell you, but "everything ends" doesn't mean the timeline stops existing, just means the anomaly stops there. "everything in what" should be the question, and the context is "anomalies in timespace continuum'.

That's not canon at all.

1. Sans doesn't know that there are multiple anamolies. We only know that because of Flowey and Toriel. Sans literally says: "That's your fault, isn't it."

2."Don't say I didn't warn you." It's heavily implied that Sans was warning the Player about Chara destroying the world, which is the only thing that makes sense tbh, considering Sans is the last fight before you lose control.

It also doesn't make sense to limit the timelines to the fun values. Flowey's saves and loads have nothing to do with them but they surely exist as separate entities/timelines.

Disagree.

 

[TioKill]

From Asriel we learn that total resets bring everything back to zero.

Hence, as the weaker versions normal resets are more likely to be identified with "timelines jumping left and right".

Timelines stopping and starting most likely relates, instead, to save and loads (colloquially known as reloads).

I will not respond to Asriel bringing everything back to zero because it doesn't attack my point.

Allow me to imitate you, ahem
"That's not canon at all!"

The LOADing and SAV'ing features do not halt the timeline, nor does it start. Start meaning "Beginning from origin". I also don't appreciate how you just claim "starting and stopping timelines" is referring to SAVE and LOAD, which is already ludicrous, but you also don't even justify that clain with any substantial amount of reason. It also doesn't make sense.

"Timelines jumping left and right."

This refers to SAVEs and LOADs. When you save, and LOAD, you're making the timeline jump from future to past. Stopping and starting anew is something either reset does.

That's not canon at all.

1. Sans doesn't know that there are multiple anamolies. We only know that because of Flowey and Toriel. Sans literally says: "That's your fault, isn't it."

2."Don't say I didn't warn you." It's heavily implied that Sans was warning the Player about Chara destroying the world, which is the only thing that makes sense tbh, considering Sans is the last fight before you lose control.

I never said he did. I said the anomaly, aka, Frisk, stopped their activity on a particular timeline because they reset.

It also doesn't make sense to limit the timelines to the fun values. Flowey's saves and loads have nothing to do with them but they surely exist as separate entities/timelines.

We currently do. Fun values are considered evidence for the plentitude of timelines. It makes perfect sense to limit the Fun values as timelines, they are the only verifiable difference in each and every timeline without the anomaly.

You didn't bring any valid reasons to disagree with the thread. You just said "this means this, and you don't make sense, so I disagree".

 

[TioKill]

We are having a tier 1 downgrade CRT for undertale as we speak, can we pause this for a few days!

This came first. Why should I be the one to stop my thread? Just because you wish to focus on one particular downgrade thread doesn't mean it has higher priority

 

[Greatsage13th]

This came first. Why should I be the one to stop my thread? Just because you wish to focus on one particular downgrade thread doesn't mean it has higher priority

There was a rule that only allowed one CRT for a verse at a time.

 

[Chianli]

Dude make up your ******* mind on how strong UT is jeez. (sorry for the language)

 

[StrymULTRA]

We are having a tier 1 downgrade CRT for undertale as we speak, can we pause this for a few days!

The Player gets downgraded to whatever rating the cosmology gets over this. So this is not affected from my CRT.

So now you can continue arguing over this without worries.

 

[Roachman40]

"Well, that didn't last f**king long" — TFS Vegeta

---

Hello. So, I have issues with how high Undertale is currently asserted to in the 2-B tier, as it's based on incorrect information, and lines taken out of context. I do not intend to downgrade it to Low 2-C, like it was before, I am well aware and accept Undertale's Multiverse. The quantity of timelines is what worries me.

1. The FUN Values are considered separate timelines, with a total of 100.​

---

I'm actually fine with this. The FUN values are verifiable differences in the timeline unrelated to the Time Traveller Player.

The problem is, you cannot consider these to be timelines, while considering other things to be alternative universes as well. It's conflicting information, because you are claiming these other methods of asserting quantity are over 100. I will show this now.

2. Number of Resets are considered to be timelines​

---

This is where the problem comes in. Basically, we currently consider that each reset travels to a new and untouched timeline. Since we can reset as many times as we want, that's a potentially infinite number of timelines we can access, thus meaning Undertale is Multiverse level.

That's cool, but you can't claim that while considering the FUN values (which are the stronger evidence here). Why? Because this is how the FUN values work.

"The fun value is a random number in Undertale, selected on Reset, between 1 and 100. This mechanic determines the occurrence of several rare events in the game; many of these events link to W. D. Gaster, the royal scientist before Alphys. These can range from Cell Phone calls, slight visual differences, or NPCs or locations appearing."

Do you see the problem? You may reset, and fall under the same FUN value, therefore it's not a new timeline, it's just the same 100 timelines varying through resets. [Direct contradiction with 2-B].


BE AWARE: I'm not saying reset doesn't shift Frisk to another timeline. No, that much is guaranteed. I'm having a problem with the assumption that this other timeline Frisk goes to has to be new. It does not!

The line used to say it's new is: "Timelines stopping and starting.", the argument is that; since Sans didn't say re-start, that must mean the timelines we go to are always different to the one we are currently in.

Yes, the term "starting" is the sole reason why resets are allowed to go past the limit of 100, which of course doesn't work.

The problem is, "starting" can be referring to something that has started in the past. Dictionary.

You "start" your game/console, even though you've played it before, for example. And the new timelines already exist before Frisk goes to them, so if you want to argue the term restart, it would apply to them in either case, making it a dull point to make.

3. Flowey refers to killing Frisk 1 million times.​

---

This is said to be referring to reloading the timeline 1 million times.


It's not. Flowey would just use the LOAD feature, which doesn't shift the timeline, preserves the events, and doesn't even change the FUN value. This justification should straight up be removed.


Conclusion

• Undertale should be downgraded to At least 2-C (100 Timelines), as they are the only verifiable quantity of timelines available.

One thing. I dont think this really disproves the interpretations for 2-B, the OP seems to be saying that the 2-C interpretation is more likely and thus should be used. I get this, but It isn't actually debunking the 2-B argument, it is just arguing something else from most of the same scans.

Thus, I do believe 2-B should still be listed on the profile, I could settle with a '2-C possibly/likely 2-B' of sorts considering I do get the 2-C argument, but the 2-B interpretation is definitely still there.

 

[Arceus0x]

I like Roachman's proposal

 

[Chianli]

then why not just put it either low 2-B or 2-C+

 

[StrymULTRA]

then why not just put it either low 2-B or 2-C+

Bruh

 

[Comiphorous]

Undertale cant catch a break...

yeah, i disagree due to reason above.

 

[CosmicWreck]

I will not respond to Asriel bringing everything back to zero because it doesn't attack my point.

Allow me to imitate you, ahem
"That's not canon at all!"

The LOADing and SAV'ing features do not halt the timeline, nor does it start. Start meaning "Beginning from origin". I also don't appreciate how you just claim "starting and stopping timelines" is referring to SAVE and LOAD, which is already ludicrous, but you also don't even justify that clain with any substantial amount of reason. It also doesn't make sense.

It doesn't make any sense to refuse to address my point by ignoring Asriel's statement because it's the only explanation for reset gained. It's like saying, "I don't agree with this statement but I will utterly ignore any explanations that may or may not state the contrary!"

As I said "starting over from zero" would make sense if we were to assume timelines jumping left and right were to mean returning to the beginning. Resets don't just start things because the timelines were clearly already operating before Resets.

"Timelines jumping left and right."

This refers to SAVEs and LOADs. When you save, and LOAD, you're making the timeline jump from future to past. Stopping and starting anew is something either reset does.

Except the whole point of Asriel wanting to reset the world is that he didn't want anything new. That thanks to Frisk's determination, they'll keep doing the same things over and over again.

Save and Load make more sense to start and stop to me, in the sense that whenever the user saves they create an entirely new world where a different happening occurs.

This is shown when Omega Flowey saved over many of his abilities and used prior saves to ensure Frisk can't avoid them and we can see at the bottom multiple different save files or timelines being used.

I do agree Loads also cause timelines to switch from left to right but I don't know why you think Load doesn't cause timelines to start or stop. There's no evidence the timelines continue after they have been loaded (while the world does continue after being saved).

I never said he did. I said the anomaly, aka, Frisk, stopped their activity on a particular timeline because they reset.

You said "anamolies" but sure, maybe I misunderstood.

We currently do.

If we did this thread wouldn't be a thing. We don't limit the number of timelines to FUN values. We add it as evidence.

Fun values are considered evidence for the plentitude of timelines. It makes perfect sense to limit the Fun values as timelines, they are the only verifiable difference in each and every timeline without the anomaly.You didn't bring any valid reasons to disagree with the thread.

Okay.

Why does it make perfect sense to exclude the Fun values from the timelines? You haven't made any rebuttal of the fact that Omega Flowey is able to make multiple saves without affecting the actual Fun time value making them inherently, automatically separate.

It doesn't make sense in saying I brought nothing to the table when you literally ignored most of my actual points.

You just said "this means this, and you don't make sense, so I disagree".

Okay. I cannot believe I have to spell this out but me saying something doesn't make sense or isn't canon just means I don't understand how you came to this conclusion using the canon. It's not an indictment or insult to you, and is certainly not an excuse to go into a meaningless rant that could have been used to clarify misunderstandings.

 

[TioKill]

There was a rule that only allowed one CRT for a verse at a time.

Mine came first, I don't have to bend to your bidding, nor do I intend to enforce this rule to Ultra's CRT. If you wish to do so, be my guest.

 

[TioKill]

One thing. I dont think this really disproves the interpretations for 2-B, the OP seems to be saying that the 2-C interpretation is more likely and thus should be used. I get this, but It isn't actually debunking the 2-B argument, it is just arguing something else from most of the same scans.

Thus, I do believe 2-B should still be listed on the profile, I could settle with a '2-C possibly/likely 2-B' of sorts considering I do get the 2-C argument, but the 2-B interpretation is definitely still there.

I like this. But the argument for 2-B is strictly one line by Sans.

"Timelines stopping and starting meaning each 'start' is an entirely new timeline".
Literally, without that, the entire reasoning as to why Undertale is 2-B is non-existent.
I don't have to debunk that because that's not necessarily the case, you see?

 

[Comiphorous]

"Timelines stopping and starting meaning each 'start' is an entirely new timeline".
Literally, without that, the entire reasoning as to why Undertale is 2-B is non-existent.
I don't have to debunk that because that's not necessarily the case, you see?

you still need to disprove it even if it's the only one. just because it's one reasoning doesn't mean you can ignore it.

 

[TioKill]

It doesn't make any sense to refuse to address my point by ignoring Asriel's statement because it's the only explanation for reset gained. It's like saying, "I don't agree with this statement but I will utterly ignore any explanations that may or may not state the contrary!"

I refused because I don't disagree with it. Yes, resets brings everything back to zero, either memories, or the plentitude of timelines. This doesn't really tackle the issue I have with the evidence for 2-B, which is just Sans' line, and interpreting LOAD as a means to boot a new timeline.

As I said "starting over from zero" would make sense if we were to assume timelines jumping left and right were to mean returning to the beginning. Resets don't just start things because the timelines were clearly already operating before Resets.

The context is that the starting point is where Frisk begins in the game, since we have evidence to suggest Sans is aware of the game world.

The timelines don't keep jumping via reset, they jump once, to one specific point. The word jumping implies consistent action, SAVEs do that a lot.

Except the whole point of Asriel wanting to reset the world is that he didn't want anything new. That thanks to Frisk's determination, they'll keep doing the same things over and over again.

Save and Load make more sense to start and stop to me, in the sense that whenever the user saves they create an entirely new world where a different happening occurs.

This is shown when Omega Flowey saved over many of his abilities and used prior saves to ensure Frisk can't avoid them and we can see at the bottom multiple different save files or timelines being used.

I do agree Loads also cause timelines to switch from left to right but I don't know why you think Load doesn't cause timelines to start or stop. There's no evidence the timelines continue after they have been loaded (while the world does continue after being saved).

Bullet chess through this one.

• Flowey was just using SAVE states and using skills frame one.
• SAVEs don't create different worlds, no aspect of the game, timeline or lore changes
• LOADs don't start timelines, they are still the same, they just resume from the SAVE point. "Why?" because that's what we see.

If we did this thread wouldn't be a thing. We don't limit the number of timelines to FUN values. We add it as evidence.

It's self-contradicting with the reset argument because OP.
We consider the 100 FUN values to be 100 timelines, but we consider resets that fall under the same FUN value to be different timelines. It's nonsense.

Okay.

Why does it make perfect sense to exclude the Fun values from the timelines? You haven't made any rebuttal of the fact that Omega Flowey is able to make multiple saves without affecting the actual Fun time value making them inherently, automatically separate.

Because SAVEs are not resets nor are they different timelines, they are just saving at different points in times. Very simple rebuttal, as you have to assume each SAVE is a timeline, which is just not the case.

It doesn't make sense in saying I brought nothing to the table when you literally ignored most of my actual points.

I really didn't, your post didn't tackle what I had to say.

Okay. I cannot believe I have to spell this out but me saying something doesn't make sense or isn't canon just means I don't understand how you came to this conclusion using the canon. It's not an indictment or insult to you, and is certainly not an excuse to go into a meaningless rant that could have been used to clarify misunderstandings.

That's not my intention, but it seemed like you were vouching your vote to the thread based solely on these misunderstandings of the current situation, which sounds like bias, or just disagreeing with something due to disliking it's conclusion.

Apparently, that's not the case so I humbly apologize.

 

[TioKill]

you still need to disprove it even if it's the only one. just because it's one reasoning doesn't mean you can ignore it.

I never said it's just one. I'm saying the reasoning doesn't prove that each timeline that's started is new. I explain:

"The upgrade assumed that the timelines "starting" were new simply because Sans didn't use the word "restart"", to which I explained that start is still an appropriate term. I also presented the FUN values limits since we use it. This makes the statement unreliable to prove 2-B, because it doesn't support the idea

 

[Comiphorous]

I never said it's just one. I'm saying the reasoning doesn't prove that each timeline that's started is new. I explain:

"The upgrade assumed that the timelines "starting" were new simply because Sans didn't use the word "restart"", to which I explained that start is still an appropriate term. I also presented the FUN values limits since we use it. This makes the statement unreliable to prove 2-B, because it doesn't support the idea

doesn't sans also refer to 'other sans-es'? when killing us off guard? if he said there are 'other sans-es', that lines up with him saying timelines are starting, not restarting.

 

[Chianli]

At thisa, we need a rock,paper, scissor match.

 

[TioKill]

doesn't sans also refer to 'other sans-es'? when killing us off guard? if he said there are 'other sans-es', that lines up with him saying timelines are starting, not restarting.

100 different sans-es are still 'other sans-es', no?

 

[TioKill]

At thisa, we need a rock,paper, scissor match.

I don't appreciate your meaningless comments that further enlarge the thread. I ask you to stop.

 

[Chianli]

I don't appreciate your meaningless comments that further enlarge the thread. I ask you to stop.

sorry is just am tired of this going back and forth. (and l want to watch how this unfolds)

 

[NothingToDebateWith]

It's used as an upgrade. I'm debunking it's use as an upgrade, not using it to downgrade, lmao.

Lmao, that's what happens when I type stuff with a not-so-lucid mind. I mean, I kinda found the reasoning of debunk a little stretched, but otherwise I find FUN value as a debunk, so I'm around neutral for now.

 

[TioKill]

Lmao, that's what happens when I type stuff with a not-so-lucid mind. I mean, I kinda found the reasoning of debunk a little stretched, but otherwise I find FUN value as a debunk, so I'm around neutral for now.

I mean, you have to look at the line and see that, well... It's not a very strong evidence too, so it kinda evens out.

 

[Roachman40]

I like this. But the argument for 2-B is strictly one line by Sans.

"Timelines stopping and starting meaning each 'start' is an entirely new timeline".
Literally, without that, the entire reasoning as to why Undertale is 2-B is non-existent.
I don't have to debunk that because that's not necessarily the case, you see?

Aye, I feel this line is important for both 2-B and 2-C, as said both of these interpretations use pretty much the same evidence to back them up (outside of a few differences, of course) just interpreted differently. While yes, it might not necessarily be the case, there is very much still a possibility it could be. Considering this, I do feel a 2-B still stands, just not as a solid tier and only with a 'possibly/likely' attached to it, of course.