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2-A Pokemon...again

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Xerkser500

Xerkser500

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This is the same song and dance from the threads I've been in so far, so I'm keeping this brief. This is a continuation of this thread someone made a month ago- https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2490249

In regards to Pokemons Reflectiom Cave. The OP requested this as being possibly 2-A because of how every mirror in Reflection Cave leads to another universe with its own reflectiom cave, which has mirrors that lead to other universes and their own reflection caves, which also have mirrors in their own reflection caves that lead to reflection caves in other universes and so on. This thread was never finished on whether or not it was 2-A or just a higher end of 2-B, hence why im making this one to conclude it.

Let me set the record straight. I don't care if this is accepted or denied. Whichever ever way it ends up, so be it. My only issue with this is that the last thread was closed for literally no reaso other than "it was denied", which it definitely wasnt or else it wouldnt have been 50+ replies long. No offense, but this to me just looked like nothing but trying to keep a possible upgrade under the table because of pure disagreement. And with due respect, thats not something I sit well with.

Again, whether this is accepted or not doesnt matter to me. What does matter to me is making sure all arguments are considered and that it gets an actual verdict so nothing is just "lolnope" closed for no reason.
 
Without reading the prior thread in detail: Thing is the mirror portals could build "circles". If there are n mirrors there are of course at least n+1 universes. But a mirror of one cave could lead to the same universe as the mirror in the cave of another universe, making it a "circle".

You can make it so that the portals in every cave always lead to a different universe than the one they are in using only n+1 universes in total, I believe.
 
Thats the thing.

It was suggested if it was just a "circle" or some kind of closed system but others in the thread already pointed out that if nothing proved it was a closed system, then it should be infinite and not just 2-B.

That's where the discussion was starting to go but the thread was suddenly closed before a conscensus agreement was made on it. That's why I'm reviving it to get that decision...well...made.
 
Unless there is proof that there are no circles it's just assumed to be n+1. Burden of proof and all that.


If there are no circles then every universe would have to link to n-1 new universes. That would probably have to be 2-A, unless is procedurally generated or something.
 
Actually Dark, someone in the last thread also made an argument against that too. That the burden of proof is more on the "closed system" argument than the infinite one. Or in other words, Occams Razor sides with 2-A more than it does 2-B.

This is from @UDIMaster in the previous thread:

"Actually, no, it's a much bigger assumption to say that they're all the same Universes in a closed system instread of them being branching Universes.

The only thing we've seen is that there's a Universe per mirror reflection, therefore, the first assumption is there's an infinite set of these.

Therefore, Occam's razer dictates that the path of least assumptions, and we're just assuming from what has been shown.

To go with what you're saying, is that there's 1. a Closed system of Universes 2. That all the Universes are just connected to each other.

So, Occam's razer."
 
Bad use of occams razor.

Making the assumption that there are infinite universes is 1 assumption and making the assumption that there are finite universes is 1 assumption. If we are splitting claims more assumptions also follow for the infinite universe assumption as well (no circles in n+1, in n+2, in n+3, in ....).

One may say it is the god vs. physics game. "It happens the way it does because god wants it" is 1 assumption and can be used for everything. Physics seemingly is much more complicated, making assumptions about certain observation being accurate and so on. But if you split the "god wants it"-assumption further you notice that there are plently assumptions within it.

Not being able to accurately quantify assumptions and likelyhood of assumptions is a problem from claiming something from occams razor.

Generally occams razor isn't a very good tool, which might be why its not employed in scientific practice.


In science, if you can not disprove the unfavourable claim you do not assume the opposite to be the case. Nullhypothesis and all that.

In relation to our wiki it is a fundamental principle that we don't rank characters higher than one (within reasonable certainty) is able to proof them to be. E.g. Saitama is probably much stronger than we rank him, but since we do not know of any higher level that he is that strong, within reasonable certainty, we do not rank him higher.
 
Well, before I continue further, some clarification please.

Just so im on the same page, when Dark and others say "closed system", are you guys thinking that these mirror universes are able to connect to each other via more than 1 mirror reflection?

Like if Mirror Universe 1 uses mirror A to connect to Mirror Universe 2, your saying Mirror Universe 2 can connect back to Mirror Universe 1 with mirror B? A different mirror?
 
I'm just going to state my thoughts on the 2-A matter. Getting straight to the point, I'm not against 2-A. Heck I'm even for it. In my mind it's a much bigger assumption to say there's a finite number of universes as opposed to there being an infinite number. The implication is there, heavily so I might add. Zinnia's statements in ORAS, the Entralink, Rainbow Rocket, the various locations accessed through Ultra Space, Reflection Cave, the alternate Alola Ash visited, his recent movie counterpart, the many manga that exist, and even Generations to a degree. They all lead to one conclusion: Infinite universes. Can the mirrors lead back to previous worlds? Absolutely, but you'd get that regardless of which one is the case. It's also entirely possible you could end up in an exact copy of a previous world and would never know the difference, because with infinity you'd inevitably get copies unless we're going to say each universe has to be unique which is a massive leap in logic.

I know there's nothing, at least that I remember, that outright says there's infinite universes, but sometimes you have to infer. We've been given the clues, we don't need it spelled out for us. Nintendo and GameFreak don't have to spoon feed us what should be a logical inference from the many hints they've already given.

That's just my take on things. I don't claim to be an expert and likely never will. However I make no promises about replying.
 
Well, my question is that, we know that these are infinitely branching, however, it's not like they are still branching, it's not an effect that is still going on, it's already happened.

There's already an infinite amount of these Universes created, and the closed Unit thing would have to be proved. With Hitchen's Razor we know there would be an infinitely branching amount, so to say it's a closed system would require proof on your part.

And the difference is that in science, one can continue to look into something and try different methods, we, however, are given a small sample and cannot do any further testing or measuring, which is why the science thing isn't a good example to use.

I don't see why the "infinity - 1" thing is even an argument, it seems really silly.

Firstly, if I destroy a Universe in a Verse that has Infinite Universes, the Verse isn't suddenly 2-B.

And in any note, we know there's already an infinite amount of Universes created, it's not that a set amount of Universes are created when someone enters a mirror, we flat out know they exist in parrallel to the original.
 
GameHearo266 said:
snip
Click to expand...
This is an actual good point I have to say. Whether the systems are closed and its finite, or its not closed and it's infinite, these mirror worlds would lead to others that would eventually lead back to other mirror worlds no matter which one you take over the other. So while im not taking a side right now, this specific point should be looked at very seriously if asking me.

Udlmaster is also right on his last point at least. Mirror worlds aren't suddenly created when someone travels through a mirror. The episode actually goes straight against this point.
 
Is "infinite universes" or anything remotely similar ever used? Because a verse can have a multiverse composed of universes that are constantly created from other universes, and universes created from those universes, and so on and so forth...and that's still just 2-B. Very, very high into 2-B, but still 2-B. Any finite number of 4-D space-time continuums will only get as high as 2-B, no matter how ludicrously high the number climbs.

A 2-A multiverse is almost always accepted by the very simple and direct statement of there being an infinite number of universes.
 
Except, thats the issue that Udlmaster already pointed out.

The mirror universes for Reflection Cave aren't being created on a constant increasing basis but that they're already simutaneously existent via the mirrors. Or from whats stated above, these universes aren't continously branching out but that they're already branched out if that makes sense.
 
Oh right. My bad there.

That specifically is never given. All the episode gives to us is that for Reflection Cave, every mirror within it leads to another universe that has it's own Reflection Cave, which would lead to more universes that have their own reflection caves, which lead to more universes with their own reflection caves, and so on and so forth. A branching of more and more universes.

The issue for those here in this discussion is that some argue the system of mirror universes is closed to make it finite (2-B) while others argue that the system of mirror universes isn't closed and would be infinite (2-A)
 
Unless it's stated one way or another, there's no real reason to assume infinite universes beyond speculation. That's the path we normally take.

In most cases, we don't even accept stuff like "endless" unless the meaning is crystal clear.
 
Reasonable, but there may be a small issue.

For the sake of understanding, lets assume for a moment that the Reflection Cave branching system is finite and is just 2-B/higher end of 2-B.

Wouldnt this generally imply that the mirror universes dont simutaneously exist amongst each other but that they're constantly being spawned from other mirror universes via connecting to them?
 
It wouldn't really imply anything, as no sufficient explanation seems to be given aside from "the mirrors lead to other universes". If we have no confirmation that there are an infinite number of them that go on forever, we just don't assume they do, as there's no need to. It's not as if there is some problem created by this that is only solved by there being an infinite number of universes existing together.
 
Yes, but the problem I was talking about was that if these universes aren't infinite flat out, but are just a constant increasing number of universes apporaching infinity, then they'd have to be universes that don't already exist together simutaneously.
 
Or they could be a really big number and just that.

Again, if all we're told is that going through one leads to another universe, all this suggests is "there are a lot of universes".

Is there some context I'm missing, by any chance? Because this is an issue that does not seem to exist in simple descriptions of Reflection Cave we're given, unless I actually missed something. If there's something particular you're basing this on, could you show me what it is? Thanks.
 
It only being a really big number doesnt seem to be the case because each mirror universe would, by logical assumption, be at least constantly branching out to where the number approches infinity or that if its infinite flat out.

From how I see this at least, I don't think it's a matter of context missing but a matter of not understanding the full extent of the material. For every mirror that leads to a different universe, those universe have their own reflection caves and their own sets of mirrors that, in turn, lead to even more universes with their ow reflection caves that have their own mirror set that does the same thing over and over again.

And we know for a fact that these mirror universes all have their own reflection caves because when Ash enters one to go to an alternate version of his universe, that universe has it's own reflection cave and mirrors.

Not specifically saying it's infinite, but going off of what was shown, the number can't simply just be "a lot". It would have to be a constantly rising number or infinite (but of course, since no specific statement in the episode was made, this is harder to determine).
 
"It only being a really big number doesnt seem to be the case because each mirror universe would, by logical assumption, be at least constantly branching out to where the number approches infinity or that if its infinite flat out."

Source for any of this? The whole argument of "the universes are either infinite or constantly created" seems based on this, but we're never told anything like it, to my knowledge. If there is something else you're basing this on, let me know so I'm not in the dark on it.

The very idea of closed circles even being possible in the first place, no matter the size, would render this a non-issue.
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
Source for any of this? The whole argument of "the universes are either infinite or constantly created" seems based on this, but we're never told anything like it, to my knowledge. If there is something else you're basing this on, let me know so I'm not in the dark on it.
Click to expand...
My basis (and the others here too I guess?) for what I bolded comes from the fact that mirror universe's have their own reflection caves with mirrors that also lead to more worlds that do the same thing. And the "mirror universe's have their own reflection caves" part comes from the episode in the anime actually showing this.

When Regular Ash travels into one of the mirrors in his universe's reflection cave, he ends up in a mirror universe that has its own reflection cave with mirrors. That means, mirror universes can only be connected by the reflection caves that are present within them. Meaning any universe that a mirror leads to will have it's own reflection cave with its own mirrors.

And while in this alternate universe, it's explained to Ash that for every mirror that is within the Reflection Cave, there exists an alternate universe that the mirrors will lead one to, just like how Ash was led to one. That means that within each mirror universe's reflection cave, its mirrors will connect to different mirror universes with their own reflection caves and mirrors that will lead to more mirror universes with their own reflection caves and so on.

Basically, the reason why im saying it's either infinite or constantly expanding is because for every mirror universe a mirror connects to, those mirror universes will do the same thing by connecting to more, which will do the same thing by connecting to more and it goes on. All Reflection Caves in these mirror universes have the same capability and that's to connect to different universes for every mirror they have.
 
Yes, and again, that is only an issue if mirror universes can never link back to each other, which I don't believe is ever stated.

None of this actually rules out or contradicts a finite number of universes. There isn't really an issue here, as far as I can see.
 
Xerkser500 said:
Just so im on the same page, when Dark and others say "closed system", are you guys thinking that these mirror universes are able to connect to each other via more than 1 mirror reflection?

Like if Mirror Universe 1 uses mirror A to connect to Mirror Universe 2, your saying Mirror Universe 2 can connect back to Mirror Universe 1 with mirror B? A different mirror?
Click to expand...
When you say if mirror universes can link back with each other, would it be something like this?

Because the episode actually proves mirror universes are only connected via a specific mirror.
 
Imagine it like this.

You have universes A, B, C, and D. These are the universes confirmed to exist.

Universe A has a cave with three mirrors. The mirrors connect to universes B, C, and D. Each of these universes also has a cave with three mirrors, each one connecting to another universe.

We know that one of the mirrors in each of the other three universes will lead to universe A, and that the other two mirrors in each will lead to another universe.

From this information, it is completely possible that universe B's other two other mirrors connect to C and D, C's connect to B and D, and D's connect to B and C.

There isn't really a reason for something like this to be impossible unless we're told so. Something like this is entirely possible on a larger scale, and unless we're given explicit proof these universes are infinite, I don't see why they can't be finite in number, regardless of what that number actually is. The mere fact these mirrors connect to other universes does not mean these universes need to go on forever, unless there is something stating they do.
 
Hopefully without getting a headache from all this mirror talk....

That's also a pretty reasonable argument to make against this as well (and I actually took a minute to think about it, fortunately)

I think the only real complaint I could have with that argument is that while it is entirely possible that the other universe's could always lead to ones that the first universe connected to in the 1st place, it's also entirely possible that those other universes could lead to entirely different universes too. Especially depending on the number of mirrors a single Reflection Cave has in the first place, which is like, 100s of them. The more mirrors there are in a cave, the bigger the chance they have of leading to totally different universes than ones that lead back to the first one like your example has it.

Honestly, its a 50/50 chance or somewhere along those lines. Which means, if this is an upgrade at all, it's no more than "possibly" at best. Which probably isnt the best option.
 
But he "could be higher" and the possibility is low enought to not get the "Possibly 2-A" rating, but high enought to just change 2-B to "At least 2-B"
 
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