1-A / High 1-A / Tier 0 Revisions Hub

[Ultima_Reality]

Does someone remember where we agreed to place "controlling/embodying all concepts"? I mean in the case where concepts refer to something like universals, to be clear. (Since I know we use the term loosely)
Just thinking about what to do with the more powerful concept manipulators

Depends on the type of concept, I'd say. If the universals don't subsist independently of the particulars and instead are wholly coterminous with them, then having power over all concepts just scales to however large your cosmology is.

If they subsist independently of the particulars, and aren't conditioned by them (Instead they are the source and basis of the particulars to begin with), then that gets a lot more interesting. In that case, the concept "Space" would obviously encompass all extensions of time, and the same goes for "Time." So it can't really be lower than Low 1-A at the least. I think it could vary between 1-A and High 1-A+ depending on the context.

 

[Ben_CleverName]

Nonduality definitely not. No superiority or power over things. Transduality? Maybe.
But then again, our nonduality page works on properties, not qualities, so arguably none of that reasoning is even applicable to it. It would need to be more in a Transquality direction lol

Ordinarily, I might agree, but Nonduality is referenced as being a prerequisite for Tier 0 altogether, and the Transduality page as it is does not differentiate between Nonduality and Transduality anymore with regards to the "Types" formatting. Feels like it should be another case of "lacking as part of superiority over X" thing to me, but I dunno. Could be wrong there.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Ordinarily, I might agree, but Nonduality is referenced as being a prerequisite for Tier 0 altogether, and the Transduality page as it is does not differentiate between Nonduality and Transduality anymore with regards to the "Types" formatting. Feels like it should be another case of "lacking as part of superiority over X" thing to me, but I dunno. Could be wrong there.

He is actually kinda right. Tier 0 is primarily "nondual" in the more traditional sense of the word, whereas our "Nonduality" power is really just something else. Ends up related to it in some fictions, but the two don't necessarily stand together.

 

[Ben_CleverName]

He is actually kinda right. Tier 0 is primarily "nondual" in the more traditional sense of the word, whereas our "Nonduality" power is really just something else. Ends up related to it in some fictions, but the two don't necessarily stand together.

That's why I said that the Nonduality page doesn't reflect the idea I posited previously, and if the page remains as it does currently, then yes, that wouldn't suggest qualitative superiority, but I was under the impression that the entire concept of Nonduality was at some point going to be revised to be more inline with the qualitative superiority aspect given how much it was emphasized in the initial conversation concerning QS. Otherwise, I don't see how it's functionally any different from Idealistic Nonexistent Physiology, since the "Non" implies that they're not part of any dual "concept" framework in the same way Idealistic Nonexistence isn't a part of such.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I'm just curious about metaphors describing entities beyond any conceptual framerate. For example, Adi-Buddha is considered “blue” yet described as:

The color blue symbolizes the expansive, unchanging quality of space, which is the ground of all arisings, the basis of all appearances, and the source of all phenomena. The absence of robes symbolizes the genuine reality beyond any dualistic, conceptual, or philosophical clothing. That is the dharmakaya buddha: the genuine body of absolute truth.

I'm genuinely curious about how descriptive some things have to be. I mean after all it was expressed that such things are deemed to not be expressive of the true nature of Adi-Buddha:

If we deem Samantabhadra an individual being, we are far from the true meaning. In reality, he denotes our potentiality that, even though at the present moment we are in samsara, has never been conditioned by dualism. From the beginning, the state of the individual has been pure and always remains pure: this is what Samantabhadra represents. But when we fall into conditioning, it is as if we are no longer Samantabhadra because we are ignorant of our true nature. So what is called the primordial Buddha, or Adibuddha, is only a metaphor for our true condition.

 

[DontTalkDT]

If they subsist independently of the particulars, and aren't conditioned by them (Instead they are the source and basis of the particulars to begin with), then that gets a lot more interesting. In that case, the concept "Space" would obviously encompass all extensions of time, and the same goes for "Time." So it can't really be lower than Low 1-A at the least. I think it could vary between 1-A and High 1-A+ depending on the context.

Yeah, I mean the case of them being independent.
Can you expand more on the context that would make that difference?

Ordinarily, I might agree, but Nonduality is referenced as being a prerequisite for Tier 0 altogether, and the Transduality page as it is does not differentiate between Nonduality and Transduality anymore with regards to the "Types" formatting. Feels like it should be another case of "lacking as part of superiority over X" thing to me, but I dunno. Could be wrong there.

The page still makes a distinction between regular nonduality and transduality. To quote:

On the other hand, characters with transduality exist outside and independently of the logical systems that they're nondual regarding while also possessing qualitative superiority to them. Besides immunizing them against the dualities in question, this power also immunizes them against attempts to apply those dualities to them, as they would transcend the scope of the haxes that could do so.

And nonduality is actually not a prerequisite for Tier 0. Remember: Nonduality means you violate logic and, as was discussed in great detail in the revision, Tier 0s are supposed to not inherently have to violate logic.

 

[Ben_CleverName]

The page still makes a distinction between regular nonduality and transduality.

Fair enough. I didn't read through that whole thing, I just noticed that the "Types" only cared about Nonduality. The way that it's worded seems strange to me, but I think we're diving a bit too far off-topic for this thread. If you're interested in continuing the discussion with me, we can take it elsewhere (profiles, maybe? Not sure where the best place would be) but I'd like to say that I find that current description to be kind of problematic. Or... maybe not "problematic", but it carries certain assumptions to it that might not be intended.

And nonduality is actually not a prerequisite for Tier 0. Remember: Nonduality means you violate logic and, as was discussed in great detail in the revision, Tier 0s are supposed to not inherently have to violate logic.

It is, though. To quote the tiering system:

They are nondual, changeless, indivisible, ineffable, self-sufficient and completely unsurpassable.

There would be no reason to list nonduality as a quality that Tier 0s "can possess" on the section describing Tier 0, and similarly, the wording (they are) doesn't imply that it's something that they can possess, but rather that it's an innate quality (for lack of better term) that all Tier 0s have, without which they would not be Tier 0.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

There would be no reason to list nonduality as a quality that Tier 0s "can possess" on the section describing Tier 0, and similarly, the wording (they are) doesn't imply that it's something that they can possess, but rather that it's an innate quality (for lack of better term) that all Tier 0s have, without which they would not be Tier 0.

Yeah, I don't mind removing that tidbit from the page, as it stands. Slipped from my mind while I was editing things.

It gets into what was said above: Tier 0s are "nondual" but in the actual philosophical sense of the term, whereas the ability described in the "Nonduality" page is effectively just something else entirely. So having both be referred to with the same terminology is probably not ideal for the moment, yeah.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Yeah, I don't mind removing that tidbit from the page, as it stands. Slipped from my mind while I was editing things.

It gets into what was said above: Tier 0s are "nondual" but in the actual philosophical sense of the term, whereas the ability described in the "Nonduality" page is effectively just something else entirely. So having both be referred to with the same terminology is probably not ideal for the moment, yeah.

Done that. Changed it to "beyond differentiation."

 

[Ben_CleverName]

Yeah, I don't mind removing that tidbit from the page, as it stands. Slipped from my mind while I was editing things.

It gets into what was said above: Tier 0s are "nondual" but in the actual philosophical sense of the term, whereas the ability described in the "Nonduality" page is effectively just something else entirely. So having both be referred to with the same terminology is probably not ideal for the moment, yeah.

In that case, I don't have anything more to say on the topic. Not on this thread, at least. Sorry for dragging things off-topic, I initially asked because the decision being made on this sort of thing held direct influence over how I and others might want to structure future CRTs. If the Nonduality page is meant to remain as it is, then ultimately the answer is "It doesn't imply qualitatively superiority". If things change are planned to change later, then that's likewise a discussion for elsewhere.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Done that. Changed it to "beyond differentiation."

Is that a good wording in that part of the description? I think people could understand that to mean that we can't, for example, differentiate between them being "spatial" or "not spatial", while I believe we agreed in the Tier 0 thread that they are definitely the latter.
Maybe it's better to leave that to the longer description on the page that gets into more detail on what it means?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Is that a good wording in that part of the description? I think people could understand that to mean that we can't, for example, differentiate between them being "spatial" or "not spatial", while I believe we agreed in the Tier 0 thread that they are definitely the latter.
Maybe it's better to leave that to the longer description on the page that gets into more detail on what it means?

Eh. Not really needed imo. The description already says "For more information see [Omnipotence page]," which goes over all that stuff. And people with no familiarity whatsoever with the concept who want to dabble into it are just expected to read that page anyway.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Can you expand more on the context that would make that difference?

Didn't see this, also. My bad.

Anyway: I think a good example of the High 1-A+ case would be scenarios where concepts are treated as co-extensive with something very broad. Like, for example, "All things that can be written," or "All things that a mind can conceptualize," or something to that effect. Basically maximalist approaches to what constitutes a "concept." Such approaches aren't guaranteed in every setting that establishes universals as a thing, after all. Even IRL realists about this can be very fidgety on what is a universal and what isn't.

Would honestly be interested in talking about cases of verses going wild with what counts as a concept, too. Say, a verse establishes "The concept of concepthood itself," for instance.

 

[Eseseso]

Didn't see this, also. My bad.

Anyway: I think a good example of the High 1-A+ case would be scenarios where concepts are treated as co-extensive with something very broad. Like, for example, "All things that can be written," or "All things that a mind can conceptualize," or something to that effect. Basically maximalist approaches to what constitutes a "concept."

Would honestly be interested in talking about cases of verses going wild with what counts as a concept, too. Say, a verse establishes "The concept of concepthood itself," for instance.

What about something that concepts fail to describe?

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

This should be added since it has 1-A proposals

Upgrading Lord of the Mysteries

We have been downplaying Lord of the Mysteries characters for quite a while now. Since the Earth is locked behind the world barrier, we aren't able to see massive DC feats within the material world. However, Lord of the Mysteries compensates for that by characters affecting higher dimensional...

vsbattles.com

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Ah, the torment nexus.

Added.

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

One question: Is this only for 1-A and above or is Low 1-A also included here?

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Isekai at Peace: 1-A Epilogue was Inevitable

So previously Shiro and everyone who scales to her were 1-A due to the author going into very detailed explanations about The Epilogue being beyond Ever-Expanding Multi-Dimensional Omnipotence etc. Author then deleted some of those details, revising the chapter, and hence Shiro and co now only...

vsbattles.com

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

One question: Is this only for 1-A and above or is Low 1-A also included here?

Transcendence tier only. So Low 1-A is the minimum.

 

[ShockingPsychic]

I read the new R>F page and the Markiplier verse Low 1-Cs fits the new standards perfectly. The two most relevant characters don't even have profiles, but I'll see if I can fix this alongside a potential thread.

I am the only active supporter of the verse, so I may make a thread for the upgrade. I don't really like touching Tier 1 stuff, but I'll give it a go.

Since the profiles are messy, here is an equally messy yet accepted thread I made a while back explaining why they fit the previous Low 1-C standards, which should be 1-A now.

 

[Tyranno223]

I read the new R>F page and the Markiplier verse Low 1-Cs fits the new standards perfectly. The two most relevant characters don't even have profiles, but I'll see if I can fix this alongside a potential thread.

I am the only active supporter of the verse, so I may make a thread for the upgrade. I don't really like touching Tier 1 stuff, but I'll give it a go.

Since the profiles are messy, here is an equally messy yet accepted thread I made a while back explaining why they fit the previous Low 1-C standards, which should be 1-A now.

Isn't there a problem with lower dimensional characters popping up in higher ones? I forget how that went down.

 

[ShockingPsychic]

Isn't there a problem with lower dimensional characters popping up in higher ones? I forget how that went down.

It's only done via a McGuffin crystal thing of ultimate power from the higher realm that ended up in the lower one, so it falls under the

• "The fictional characters being able to attack the real ones without being shown to somehow have transcended their fictional world or having special abilities that allow it by being something rooted in a higher reality."

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

https://www.vsbattles.com/threads/what-a-beautiful-series-nyarlathoteps-are-1-a.169993/

 

[Ovy7]

When The Revision Cries - Episode 3: Banquet of the New Tiering System

Yes, it's finally happening. I wanted this thread to be short, but it ended up much larger than I envisioned it. Special thanks to @Jinsye and @JustANormalPerson01 for helping me. Anyway, let the curtain open on the third game! TLDR on the cosmology Basically, the When They Cry cosmology is...

vsbattles.com

@Ultima_Reality Add it to the queue!

 

[demonwarrior2266]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Sandman_(SCP) The sandman from SCP should get a downgrade from 11-B to 11-C due to being qualitatively inferior. The only reason it is 11-B is due to being 2 levels of reality-fiction inferiority below the SCP universe, which only works with the old system.

 

[Qawsedf234]

SCP is being removed from the Wiki afaik. So there's no reason to currently focus on a downgrade for that franchise.

 

[Daoist_Pepe]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Sandman_(SCP) The sandman from SCP should get a downgrade from 11-B to 11-C due to being qualitatively inferior. The only reason it is 11-B is due to being 2 levels of reality-fiction inferiority below the SCP universe, which only works with the old system.

The Death of SCP

Also known as "If The Horse Is Being Beaten This Much, Maybe It's Time We Just Let It Die, As Nature Intended". Summary In the past, we have repeatedly debated whether or not the SCP Foundation (and verses very similar to it) had a place on this wiki. Concerns on this front were largely based...

vsbattles.com

Unnecessary because SCP has been disqualified from the wiki. All the profiles will soon depart.

 

[demonwarrior2266]

SCP is being removed from the Wiki afaik. So there's no reason to currently focus on a downgrade for that franchise.

Understandable. However honestly, I think tier 11 needs to change in some way anyway due to reasons I laid out in this thread I made: https://vsbattles.com/threads/tier-11-needs-a-revamp.170030/

Can you check this out and see if you agree? Especially with the new changes I'm surprised nobody pointed this out sooner.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Toei Tokusatsu (Kamen Rider, Super Sentai, etc.)

Upgrade to 1-A. Needs evaluation. K thnks luv u bye.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Shouldn't this thread be open due to “straightforwardness?”

Krishna (Shree Krishna TV show) Tier 1/0 revision

Since I am not so sure about standards of tier 0 I'll just leave it to the evaluators/knowledgeable members. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Krishna_(Shree_Krishna_TV_show) Krishna is shapeless, formless, beyond confines of all creation, he is unchanging, self dependent parambrahma, he is...

vsbattles.com

It’s so blatantly 0.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Shouldn't this thread be open due to “straightforwardness?”

Krishna (Shree Krishna TV show) Tier 1/0 revision

Since I am not so sure about standards of tier 0 I'll just leave it to the evaluators/knowledgeable members. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Krishna_(Shree_Krishna_TV_show) Krishna is shapeless, formless, beyond confines of all creation, he is unchanging, self dependent parambrahma, he is...

vsbattles.com

It’s so blatantly 0.

Last thread I did that to (Megaton Rainfall one) ended up being contested as well, so, no more of that. Doubly so here, since it's a Tier 0 one.

 

[marosuke]

DMC Wacky woohoo controversial upgrade

Hello guys. This verse would be 1-A I suppose. I don't know anything more than that🤷‍♂️ At least you can enjoy the lore of DMC here🔥 Please wait for the queue first. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Marosuke/sandbox

vsbattles.com

Please put this thread into the queue.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

DMC Wacky woohoo controversial upgrade

Hello guys. This verse would be 1-A I suppose. I don't know anything more than that🤷‍♂️ At least you can enjoy the lore of DMC here🔥 Please wait for the queue first. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Marosuke/sandbox

vsbattles.com

Please put this thread into the queue.

No.

 

[Eseseso]

That said, to keep things under relative control, a certain stipulation will be established: Only 4 threads tackling 1-A to High 1-A verses will be left open at any given time. And similarly, only 2 threads tackling Tier 0 upgrades will be left open at once. Exceed that limit, and the thread will be closed, added to the hub, and opened when we reach its place in the queue.


1-A

• https://vsbattles.com/threads/arceus-qualitative-upgrade.169764/ - ACCEPTED
• https://vsbattles.com/threads/vampire-hunter-d-cosmology-upgrade-1-a.162642 - REJECTED
• https://vsbattles.com/threads/warha...wanted-me-to-make-a-thread-to-be-sure.169768/
• https://vsbattles.com/threads/ergenverse-cosmology-re-evaluation.169769/ - ACCEPTED
• https://vsbattles.com/threads/dungeons-and-dragons-1-a-high-1-a-justification-rewrite.169784/
• https://vsbattles.com/threads/huge-honkai-revisions-part-3.169799/ - REJECTED

• https://vsbattles.com/threads/a-wild-last-boss-appeared-qualitative-upgrade.169770/ - ON WAIT
• https://vsbattles.com/threads/trans...unicron-primus-qualitative-evaluation.169777/ - ON WAIT

These two should be opened, since only two 1-A threads are opened right now.

 

[RaveeCPN]

Can be added to the queue.

Eldritch Gods (Sucker for Love) Qualitative Superiority Ugrade

General Eldritch Gods Our universe, infinite cosmos and everything that humans understand as “reality” is just a simple dream of the Eldritch Gods True Form that exists in the Outer Depths beyond space and time, and when they awaken from their sleep, reality collapses into total nothingness. ...

vsbattles.com

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

Sage Monarch Possible 1-A

Lower Worlds Note: I won't delve into the full scope and details of the lower worlds or the God World, as I find it unnecessary. In brief, the lower worlds are capped at 2-A, while the God World encompasses a 2-A scope but in a 6D form in the old system. In Sage Monarch, the lower realms...

vsbattles.com

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

The Seekers “God” profile has been updated by Ultima. I think you can add accepted and open a new tier 0 thread.

 

[WanderingGecko]

I think this counts as an r>F thread too.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/meta-...evision-and-some-other-stuff-included.169727/

 

[Everything12]

Another 1-A thread to the list.

TenSura WN Major Revision - Part 3 - Slime Verse Road to 1-A

Introduction Hello everyone, hope you are doing well. Lets try to keep this simple and clean. Note that I tried to keep all scans to the RAW only. However, for things that were repeated far too many times in the verse at different occasions, I think they wouldn't need RAW proof, especially...

vsbattles.com

 

[Eseseso]

Largely because I have a lot of things to go over regarding Marvel's 1-A ratings, which would inevitably impact Wiccan. So I've put him underneath the relatively more straightforward threads.

Me: Looks at list

Also me: Cries on the inside knowing that it's gonna be a long time.