Who Killed Markiplier: Low 1-C Upgrade (plus some minor updates)

[ShockingPsychic]

yeah, i can't believe it either.

Howdy, this thread aims to hopefully upgrade a handful of our Who Killed Markiplier characters to Low 1-C, while also allowing future profiles to obtain this rating. Prior to this thread, I have had no experience with Tier 1. I've read some other threads about the tier, and talked with some other users, and I truly believe that this rating is what is required, but let's just have a look at the justifications.

Why and How?
First, let's discuss the cosmology of the Markiplier setting.

First of all, we have what I will be calling The Captain's World, also known as the setting of In Space With Markiplier. This world is a universe that has it's own space and time, as stated time and time again. This means the Captain's World is 4-D.

However, it doesn't stop there. The Narrator, a character introduced in Space, speaks to the Captain, where he refers to himself as a "higher-dimensional being" who is working as a narrator for "this project". "This project", in this context, is the film in which the Captain's World exists as in this higher dimension. Also in this clip, shown to be filming the movie that is ISWM, is a character known as The Actor, aka Mark, meaning that the Actor and the Narrator share a universe. The Actor is making a film, that comprises the 4-D world of ISWM, and has hired the Narrator as, well, a narrator.

This would make the Narrator 5-D, given he is a higher dimension than the 4-D world where the Captain exists. This is backed up by the Captain's World being nothing more than a film in this higher dimension, thus making those in this world view it as fiction.

This is where the upgrade comes in. As explained above, the Narrator and Actor exist in the same 5-D world, above the 4-D world of The Captain. However, the Actor also shares a world with the entire cast of Who Killed Markiplier.

This would mean that Who Killed Markiplier, and the other entries of the series that have these same characters, take place in 5-D world full of 5-D beings. This makes narrative sense as well, as the Mark we see in both Heist and Space are merely avatars of the Actor, who is playing a part in those films. Note the use of the word "project" to describe both of these fictional worlds, the Actor's consistent personality, and the mentions of parole.

TL;DR --- A character known as the Narrator is higher-dimensional than the world of ISWM, which contains multiple space-times, and sees said world as fiction. Also existing in the Narrator's world is The Actor, who also perceives ISWM as fiction and even acts in their in-universe material. The Actor exists in the same world as the cast of WKM, making them 5-D as well.

The Changes

• The following characters will be upgraded to Low 1-C, due to being 5-D, as they appear in the world belonging to the Actor/Narrator. Alongside this, they will gain Higher-Dimensional Existence,

The Colonel/Wilford Warfstache
The Detective
Celine
Possibly the Warfstache Automated Interview Automaton. This one is tricky, as while he doesn't appear alongside any other character, he was said to be made by Wilford. The issue is that there is no way of knowing if this was done in the world of WKM or one of the various "project" universes.

There are many more changes that need to be done to this verse, but those will come at a later date. Many of these proposed changes rely on whether or not Low 1-C is accepted, so I feel it's best to get this change handled before any of those.

However, one change that can be applied no matter the outcome of this thread, the verse should be renamed to just "Markiplier". We don't call the Pokemon series "Pokemon Red and Green", so why are we calling this series after the name of the first installment? As "Markiplier" is consistently in the titles, this seems like a logical conclusion.

I can elaborate on any of these points, as I recognize some of it may be hard to read. I hope it gets the point across, but if not, feel free to ask me for clarity or context.

 

[Remus1998]

You'd think there'd be more people on thread to upgrade a verse to Low 1-C, but heh

As for the CRT, I'm leaning towards agree for now based on what's shown but I'll look at the Tiering System FAQ as I'm not that well versed on higher dimensions

 

[Greatsage13th]

Agreed

 

[Jackpact]

Wouldn't the low-1C upgrade also include Darkiplier (Damian?) too? Cause he seem to consist of both Damian and celine in the body of the WKM protag, one of them is low-1C according to OP (which would be consistent with the end credit feat).

Other then that, the upgrade seem to be fine at a glance so agree.

Edit: oh he doesn't have a profile... Well i feel stupid now lol.

 

[ThanatosX]

The Narrator being Low 1-C is pretty clear cut. He states to be a higher dimensional being and sees the entirety of the Multiverse in which "In Space with Markiplier" takes place as fiction, a story that he is narrating just to get some money. And the ontological difference is proven when we can see him being able to change the events of the story as he likes, with even events that can't happen unless he specifically narrates them, as seen with the Invincible II exploding.
The Actor seems to exist in the same plane of existence as the Narrator, considering he was acting in the set of "In Space with Markiplier", meaning that he too sees the events of the series as fictional.
With that, everyone that exists, or existed, in the same dimension as this two would scale, making them Low 1-C.
So, in conclusion, I agree with the upgrade.
The only note that I want to make is that I would call the Verse as "Markiplier Verse" just to prevent confusion with the actual person and the character in the series with the same name.

Wouldn't the low-1C upgrade also include Darkiplier (Damian?) too? Cause he seem to consist of both Damian and celine in the body of the WKM protag, one of them is low-1C according to OP (which would be consistent with the end credit feat).

Other then that, the upgrade seem to be fine at a glance so agree.

Edit: oh he doesn't have a profile... Well i feel stupid now lol.

Dark would definitely get Low 1-C Power Null at the very least, considering that he was able to completely shut down the Crystal with a touch while it was activating, something that not even the Narrator with his Plot Manipulation was able to do.
For the other statistics, it should be discussed but I am not against him fully scaling, if there is enough evidence.

 

[It_is_i_wyatt]

am i misreading something or is this suggesting the markiplier characters should scale to their own transcendence, the narrator and actor transcend the markiplier verse but the characters can exist alongside them so they scale even though theyre the ones being transcended?

 

[ShockingPsychic]

am i misreading something or is this suggesting the markiplier characters should scale to their own transcendence, the narrator and actor transcend the markiplier verse but the characters can exist alongside them so they scale even though theyre the ones being transcended?

The instances in which a character from the Captain's World transcend their narrative are explicitly done via the Wormhole, which is Low 1-C in of itself, not their own power. Characters who have Portable Wormhole Generators would receive a "(Tier), Low 1-C via Portable Wormhole Generator" rating, as the PWG has the power to allow them to transcend their 4-D narrative.

(Scan one shows the Captain being brought to the higher narrative by the wormhole, possessing the body of a child. Scan two is the Captain getting brought to the higher narrative as themself, once again only via the wormhole. Scan three is the Captain and Mark entering the higher narrative (Abe, the Detective, being present confirms this), once again only through the wormhole)

As for higher narrative characters appearing in the lower narrative, there seem to be two explanations. The Actor appears in these lower narratives through Avatar Creation, as he creates and plays a character that exists in the lower narrative. The Actor implies that Damien has this ability too, which is showcased in Damien appearing in the world of Heist and Space.

(Scan one has Damien describe Heist!Mark as the "same snake (with) different skin", and goes on to elaborate that Actor inserts himself into these stories as characters. Scan two shows the Actor portraying one of these characters as, well, an Actor. Scan three shows Actor telling Damien that he will become "the perfect villain in my stories")

Aside from that, again, the only instances of a higher narrative character appearing in the lower narrative is due to the Wormhole.

For clarification, the Wormhole is Low 1-C, as it overpowered the Narrator, and threatened to destroy the lower and higher narratives. It only makes sense that the Wormhole would be capable of bringing characters to the opposite narrative, as it shows just this multiple times.

So, to put it simply, there is a clear divide between the lower and higher narrative. This line is only crossed by the wormhole or characters from the high narrative. Higher narrative characters still transcend the lower ones, however the wormhole serves as a method of lower characters transcending to the higher narrative.

For context, Who Killed Markiplier, DAMIEN, and Wilford "Motherloving" Warfstache all feature a reoccurring cast, and take place in the higher world.

A Date/Heist/Space with Markiplier are "stories", which feature different casts, and are seen as fictional in the higher world. Characters from the higher narrative appearing in these are limited to the Actor's avatars, Damien's avatars, and Wilford Warfstache (Wilford is... more vauge, though this is intentional). I have this blog, which may be worth bringing up.

 

[Jackpact]

So from what i'm hearing, Darkiplier scale to the higher narrative completely?

 

[ShockingPsychic]

So from what i'm hearing, Darkiplier scale to the higher narrative completely?

Damien/Dark would scale to Low 1-C due to being from the higher narrative, yes.

He would prooooobably have an avatar key? For his appearances in Date/Heist/Space? Where he'd just be 10-B with some fancy hax, including 5-D power null.

 

[Jackpact]

Thanks, for clarification.

 

[Arceus0x]

Easiest Low 1-C upgrade at least in my eyes

 

[ThanatosX]

Bump

 

[Braking]

Already agreed.

 

[ThanatosX]

Bump

 

[ThanatosX]

Bump

 

[XVII]

agree fra, also tier 1 markiplier sounds so funny i just need to see this tbh

 

[Arceus0x]

agree fra, also tier 1 markiplier sounds so funny i just need to see this tbh

He needs to be tier 0 for opening an only fans

 

[XVII]

do you think we could do that? only fans means he interacts with the real world, which is tier 0 (it works like that for SCP i think).

it might be possible... lets canonize only fans!!!!

 

[ShockingPsychic]

Tragically, I doubt the OnlyFans is canon to Markiplier lore.

big if true though

 

[Qawsedf234]

This would make the Narrator 5-D, given he is a higher dimension than the 4-D world where the Captain exists. This is backed up by the Captain's World being nothing more than a film in this higher dimension, thus making those in this world view it as fiction.

That's not how R>F or higher dimensional rating work:

• Being higher dimensional is not the same as having the ability to affect an entire 5-Dimensional space. You can have infinite spatial dimensions but still be something like 3-C if you can't affect the entire structure. Higher dimensionality stopped being a default rating some time ago in of itself.
• Viewing something as a film doesn't mean that you get R>F. You actually have to show signs of being able to freely affect and alter the universe on that scale to get it and even then it wouldn't always be 5-D.

 

[ThanatosX]

That's not how R>F or higher dimensional rating work:

• Being higher dimensional is not the same as having the ability to affect an entire 5-Dimensional space. You can have infinite spatial dimensions but still be something like 3-C if you can't affect the entire structure. Higher dimensionality stopped being a default rating some time ago in of itself.
• Viewing something as a film doesn't mean that you get R>F. You actually have to show signs of being able to freely affect and alter the universe on that scale to get it and even then it wouldn't always be 5-D.

The Narrator sees the entirety of the infinite Multiverse in which "In Space with Markiplier" takes place as nothing more than a story that he is narrating and that he can affect. This is a clear Reality-Fiction difference, with him even calling himself an "higher dimensional being" to further drive home the point.
At least the Narrator should easily be Low 1-C, otherwise many other "author-like characters" should be downgraded.

 

[Qawsedf234]

that he can affect

Can you show the character changing the entire universe or multiverse structure?

 

[ShockingPsychic]

Viewing something as a film doesn't mean that you get R>F

When I say "viewing it as a film", I don't mean "watching a movie", I mean that the Actor and the Narrator are creating this world in the form of a movie, and portray characters within it, thus viewing it as fiction.

You actually have to show signs of being able to freely affect and alter the universe on that scale

Both the Actor and Narrator can affect the Captain's universe/narrative freely. This is seen when the Narrator creates a spotlight just by adding it to the script, then later stops time. He can also affect his own universe/narrative, as seen when he opens a wormhole.

The Actor, meanwhile, exists through avatars (the various Marks, such as Space!Mark and Heist!Mark) and can effect the world via them.

Wilford Warfstache, another character who would get Low 1-C due to existing in the higher narrative, also effects both the higher and lower universes, as seen when he destroys a wormhole (which would be Low 1-C itself).

Finally, the Wormhole (which is something that Actor, Narrator, Warfstache, Damien, users of the Portable Wormhole Device, and likely the other 5-D characters can scale to) threatens to destroy both layers of the verse (and does destroy the lower one), warps and changes the lower narrative into a different genre, and allows the Captain to ascend to the higher narrative.

Also, I know it's usually a bad idea to bring up other verses, but from what I can tell, this character was accepted as Low 1-C for what seems to be reasons identical to these.

 

[Qawsedf234]

When I say "viewing it as a film", I don't mean "watching a movie", I mean that the Actor and the Narrator are creating this world in the form of a movie, and portray characters within it, thus viewing it as fiction.

But that's not enough for R>F. It's not just about viewing something as fictional. It's the relationship and the ability to interact with it that determines the ability.

then later stops time.

Both the Captain and the other person are making visible movements. Holding something in place is not the same as stopping time.

He can also affect his own universe/narrative, as seen when he opens a wormhole.

If anything that just supports it not being R>F at all, but a special thing of that character.

Also, I know it's usually a bad idea to bring up other verses, but from what I can tell, this character was accepted as Low 1-C for what seems to be reasons identical to these.

KEVIN is actually a bad example to use. Because KEVIN is shown to freely change and direct the entire MCU, along with it being mentioned as affecting the entire MCU. It's showing the entire 2-A multiverse is just random bits of data that it can freely alter and change in its entirety. So far you haven't shown that same level of scale with the Narrator.

The most I can really see would be something like Low 2-C and that's rather stretching it in my view.

 

[ThanatosX]

Can you show the character changing the entire universe or multiverse structure?

This video shows the Narrator altering the Universe the Captain is in. As you can see, he speed up time multiple times, skipping entire events, erase characters that don't belong, change other characters, give the Captain an object that allow him to travel between the infinite Universes like it's nothing and, if at the end you choose the "Plan K" option, the Invincible II can't explode unless the Narrator narrates it happening. Entire events in the story can't happen unless he specifically narrates them.

Also, just to be clear, it's not necesessary to alter an entire lower dimensional Multiverse to classify as Low 1-C, just seeing a 4-D structure as fiction is enough regardless of how much control the character have over their own dimension, or even lower ones. Ultima talks about this and explains it in this thread. To quote him:

"The Low 1-C rating would be off of their own ontology, and not the amount of influence they are able to exert over a lesser plane. That's a point I brought up in the last thread: You can be Low 1-C or 1-A or whatever and still have limited influence over lower worlds (As well as no such influence over your own). It makes you a very shitty Tier 1 but does not invalidate the tier altogether."

I can search the exact comment he posted this in, but in a bit I really need to go to bed so I will do it tomorrow, if I have time.

 

[Qawsedf234]

This video shows the Narrator altering the Universe the Captain is in.

It shows him being shot and waking up in another reality. You would need to prove that its the entire reality being effected rather than just the Captain.

Also, just to be clear, it's not necesessary to alter an entire lower dimensional Multiverse to classify as Low 1-C, just seeing a 4-D structure as fiction is enough regardless of how much control the character have over their own dimension, or even lower ones. Ultima talks about this and explains it in this thread. To quote him:

Ultima in that thread was out voted and his reasoning was rejected, which is why the Player Character is now Tier 2. So that reasoning doesn't hold up.

 

[ThanatosX]

It shows him being shot and waking up in another reality. You would need to prove that its the entire reality being effected rather than just the Captain.

It seems a bit of a nitpicky argument. He early states that he is the Narrator of "In Space with Markiplier", which includes all of it's infinite timelines. This alone prove a R>F difference.
And then he is seen warping around the time everywhere in a Universe, and even after all the Universes collapse he is still there narrating everything that is happening. So I don't see how that wouldn't prove a superiority.

Ultima in that thread was out voted and his reasoning was rejected, which is why the Player Character is now Tier 2. So that reasoning doesn't hold up.

Actually, I think that the page might have been vandalized, because in that thread OP states that he is fine with the Low 1-C Tier remaining but he wants to hear from Ultima first.

Since you are here, could you ping other staff members? I would like other opinions too, because only one might be a bit little for a Tier 1 thing.

 

[ThanatosX]

KEVIN is actually a bad example to use. Because KEVIN is shown to freely change and direct the entire MCU, along with it being mentioned as affecting the entire MCU. It's showing the entire 2-A multiverse is just random bits of data that it can freely alter and change in its entirety. So far you haven't shown that same level of scale with the Narrator.

Also, I want to add that KEVIN was shown to affect only a small room of people and nothing more. The influence that the Narrator have would be higher than his, by that logic. And the Narrator is stated to narrate the entire of "In Space with Markiplier", which is formed by an infinite amount of Universes.

 

[ShockingPsychic]

But that's not enough for R>F. It's not just about viewing something as fictional. It's the relationship and the ability to interact with it that determines the ability.

Even assuming that that the one instance isn't time stop but rather merely holding them in place, have I not shown that the Narrator and the Actor have immense control over the lower narrative, as well as limited control over their own?

Both the Captain and the other person are making visible movements. Holding something in place is not the same as stopping time.

Given there is a "paused" logo in the corner of the screen, I would argue that the implication here is that time has stopped, even if the visuals don't reflect this completely accurately. However, they do make movements, so I'd also agree that this may be a form of paralysis inducement. However, this isn't the only time the Narrator controls time, as seen when he skips time here and here.

Regardless, this is still him effecting the lower narrative like it's his plaything.

The Actor also "cuts" out of the lower narrative at one point.

If anything that just supports it not being R>F at all, but a special thing of that character.

I don't quite get this, would you mind elaborating?

Because KEVIN is shown to freely change and direct the entire MCU, along with it being mentioned as affecting the entire MCU

Is this not what Narrator/Actor are doing? The Narrator and Actor are both shown to be behind the creation (with Narrator as, well, a narrator, and Actor as, well, an actor) and continuity of the ISWM world. Narrator even changes the script on the fly multiple times, and this changes the events of the ISWM universe.

 

[Qawsedf234]

This alone prove a R>F difference.

It doesn't.

And then he is seen warping around the time everywhere in a Universe, and even after all the Universes collapse he is still there narrating everything that is happening. So I don't see how that wouldn't prove a superiority.

As I said, I can get an argument for Low 2-C. But Low 1-C just doesn't have anything of substance in my view.

Actually, I think that the page might have been vandalized,

You can check the history of the page and of the thread, Ultima was outvoted and the rating was changed because the Low 1-C tier was rejected.

was shown to affect only a small room of people and nothing more.

KEVIN was shown that it can freely alter the MCU and changed stuff with She-Hulk. Changing the MCU is why KEVIN is Low 1-C. If it was limited to the room I doubt he'd be higher than Low 2-C.

have I not shown that the Narrator and the Actor have immense control over the lower narrative, as well as limited control over their own?

Its enough for Low 2-C (maybe), but not Low 1-C. Effecting universal spaces is not the same as effecting fifth dimensional spaces.

Is this not what Narrator/Actor are doing?

No. Effecting universal spaces just makes them able to effect universal spaces, but that's not enough for them to be Low 1-C in scope.

 

[ShockingPsychic]

Changing the MCU is why KEVIN is Low 1-C

Effecting universal spaces just makes them able to effect universal spaces, but that's not enough for them to be Low 1-C in scope.

Perhaps I missing something, but is this not contradictory? Changing the MCU is what made him Low 1-C, but effecting universal spaces isn't enough for Low 1-C?

Also, just as an observation, KEVIN's justification for Low 1-C are as follows:

• Resides in the "real world"

Actor and Narrator both do this

• where it controls

Actor and Narrator are both capable of this

• and makes all the decisions regarding the MCU multiverse

Narrator does this with the ISWM/AHWM universe, Actor is implied to be capable of it too, to some extent

• which it views as just fiction,

Both do this, as discussed above. I don't think this was ever refuted, as it is pretty explicit

• changing its history at its will

Narrator does this explicitly by changing the script (and when he triggers the explosion of the Invincible 2), while Actor is implied to be more than capable of the same thing

If the same justifications for this case of Low 1-C apply for this case as well, what makes them different?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Changing the MCU is what made him Low 1-C

Changing the MCU, viewing the MCU as data and being the overall writer and author of the franchise is why it's Low 1-C.

Actor and Narrator both do this

But they don't, since the people they're "Over" are capable of going to them and don't have a handwave to explain it away like with KEVIN.

Actor and Narrator are both capable of this

The former isn't R>F and the latter can just be teleportation.

Narrator does this with the ISWM/AHWM universe, Actor is implied to be capable of it too, to some extent

The narrator summoned the Captain to his realm who then stole his book and hopped elsewhere. Which contradicts the idea they're always that's powerful/have R>F.

Both do this, as discussed above. I don't think this was ever refuted, as it is pretty explicit

Viewing something as a film isn't the same as R>F. There's more to it than just that.

Narrator does this explicitly by changing the script (and when he triggers the explosion of the Invincible 2)

Changing events of a lower space doesn't make the character Low 1-C. KEVIN is capable of changing the history of universal and multiverse spaces, not deviating and destroying just a ship.

I get Low 2-C, but I'm not seeing much for Low 1-C. Its why the Player Character from Undertale was downgraded, since they also lacked a good R>F justification.

 

[ThanatosX]

It doesn't.

I am sorry, but this is just not true. Seeing something as fictional is the definition of a Reality>Fiction difference.

As I said, I can get an argument for Low 2-C. But Low 1-C just doesn't have anything of substance in my view.

Which is why I would appreciate if you could ping other staff members. If this is refuted, it might affect multiple characters that at the moment are Low 1-C.

You can check the history of the page and of the thread, Ultima was outvoted and the rating was changed because the Low 1-C tier was rejected.

Please, check the thread itself. this were the conclusions of the CRT. It was never rejected, in fact it was accepted as legit.

KEVIN was shown that it can freely alter the MCU and changed stuff with She-Hulk. Changing the MCU is why KEVIN is Low 1-C. If it was limited to the room I doubt he'd be higher than Low 2-C.

No, I don't know if you saw the show, but KEVIN only altered things that were inside the room in which the final nate of She-Hulk took place. He never altered anything outside of that, a part from making Daredevil come after the final battle.
People started agreeing with the Low 1-C Tier mainly after my own argument, which was based on the same basis that the Narrator have for the Tier. If he gets refuted, than KEVIN and all other "author-like characters" should be downgrade, otherwise it would be a really bad double-standard.

Its enough for Low 2-C (maybe), but not Low 1-C. Effecting universal spaces is not the same as effecting fifth dimensional spaces.

There are plenty of "author-like characters" that are never shown to be able to alter their own dimension.
The Narrator was able to comunicate with the Captain while he was in the Wormhole between the infinite Universe, and after all the Universe collapsed he was still there, narrating, further proving he is outside it.

Overall, this seems a big double-standard to me. The Narrator is a higher-dimensional being that sees a 2-A structure as fiction and can manipulate the events in it at his liking. This is honestly a far more solid Low 1-C characters than many others I have seen.
I will try to contact more staff, because this seems a bit of a biased argument to me.

Edit: I am tired, so I will go to bed. I will reply to further message tomorrow. Good night!

 

[Qawsedf234]

Seeing something as fictional is the definition of a Reality>Fiction difference.

R>F being used here is saying that they view an entire plane of existence as fictional, so they should be 5th Dimensional. They don't have the level of R>F needed to justify that rating.

Which is why I would appreciate if you could ping other staff members.

I don't know who you want me to ping.

People started agreeing with the Low 1-C Tier mainly after my own argument, which was based on the same basis that the Narrator have for the Tier. If he gets refuted, than KEVIN and all other "author-like characters" should be downgrade, otherwise it would be a really bad double-standard.

Alright. Make the thread for KEVIN then, because I'm not seeing a Low 1-C justification for these characters.

because this seems a bit of a biased argument to me.

Just because I disagree with your argument does not make me biased. Just like how you're not biased for thinking the characters are Low 1-C. People can disagree about how ratings should be applied or how they count, but that doesn't make people biased for arguing against something. It means they disagree with it.

 

[ShockingPsychic]

But they don't, since the people they're "Over" are capable of going to them and don't have a handwave to explain it away like with KEVIN.

The only instances of the characters that are "lower" than them reaching them is via the Wormhole, which is shown to be able to reach across universes and teleport people. This wormhole is also said to bring upon the end of all reality, which the Narrator specifies includes his own as well.

The Wormhole is what allows them (the lower characters) to do this, not their own power. It is still made clear that the Narrator and Actor are above them and can directly effect them and their world. That's the handwave.

And they very explicitly live in "the real world", at least compared to the Captain's world/ISWM. Actor is seen on a film set for ISWM, where he is an actor for the project. The Narrator was hired as the narrator for this same project. Context from Date's ending shows that the Actor does, in fact, act in these lower narratives and sees them as fiction, more specifically a movie production.

If this isn't R>F, I'm unsure of what is. This is a character explicitly stating that he sees another character as a fictional character, and exists in a higher dimension than them. This gap is closed by the Wormhole via its own powers.

The former isn't R>F and the latter can just be teleportation.

The former is debatable, but the later shouldn't be labeled as teleportation. He says "Now to be honest, we've all seen this part before, and I don't want the viewers at home to get bored, so why don't we skip ahead a few pages and get to our good friend Wug?"

"Skipping ahead a few pages" implies going to a later point in time, as least just as much as it implies teleportation.

Either way, this is still controlling the lower universe, right? He is directly changing the flow of events - whether by accelerating time or tossing them around to scenes they aren't supposed to be at yet.

The narrator summoned the Captain to his realm who then stole his book and hopped elsewhere. Which contradicts the idea they're always that's powerful/have R>F.

The Wormhole summoned the Captain, not the Narrator. The Wormhole is shown to be on par (if not superior, given it can ignore his commands) than The Narrator. The Captain was brought to his higher dimension via the Wormhole, granting the Captain the ability to interact with it. This isn't the only time this happens, but every instance is because of the Wormhole.

Viewing something as a film isn't the same as R>F. There's more to it than just that.

Can you elaborate? Not only do they view it as a film, they are both actively creating the media in which this world takes place in. Actor plays Mark, a character who appears in this story. We see him on the set while the film is being made, and see the Narrator as he writes the script/narrates the scene. Perhaps if you clarify what one needs to get R>F, I can explain my case better.

Changing events of a lower space doesn't make the character Low 1-C.

Changing the MCU is why KEVIN is Low 1-C.

Again, I am confused, as this seems contradictory. Is the MCU not considered a "lower space" to Kevin?

KEVIN is capable of changing the history of universal and multiverse spaces, not deviating and destroying just a ship.

I think I get this one, but I still have to disagree with the later part.

Kevin changed the events of the MCU. This is done when he edits the scene where Hulk shows up, and the redditor gets Hulk powers, etc. These are events that happened, but due to Kevin's interference, it was scrubbed from history and replaced with Jennifer's preferred ending. I think I have this correct, but feel free to correct me.

Narrator does the exact same thing here. They go to get food from the drive-through woman, but Narrator changes this, replacing it with another Wug. This likely isn't transmutation, where he transformed the woman into Wug or something. That would be a bigger stretch than assuming this was plot manip/reality warping, given the Narrator does both of these in other scenes.

It is shown as a mistake in the narrative that the Narrator scrubs away and changes.

While it is a shorter sequence, it is the same idea. An event happens, being who sees the world as fiction changes the event and replaces it with another.

As for cosmology, the ISWM world contains if this matters. The Woman says this:

"Having fun, Captain?
You know, they say every choice spawns a new universe.
And if that's the case, what kind of universes
do you think your choices have been making, hmm?
You haven't been working very hard to save your crew, have you, Captain?
What's one choice among the infinite, you might ask."

The ideology of "every choice creating a universe" is confirmed by Heist here.

For more proof:

The tagline of the series is "The multiverse is littered with the corpses of your failures."

The ending song (sung in-universe by Yancy) contains the line;
In my heart, I'm not afraid of death
In the cold vacuum of space
But I never thought I'd have to see
The entire multiverse erased

I guess an absolute lowball would be 2-C, though there is evidence for 2-A. Either way, does the exact cosmology of the verse effect the tiering proposed here?

As I said before, I haven't had much experience with Tier 1, so really I'm more confused than anything. We have a character who creates a 4-D space, views the 4-D space as fiction due to writing/acting in the media it takes place in, can interact and change things within this 4-D space, and was stated to be of a higher dimension. Is this not enough support? Why do other characters have Low 1-C due to this, but these characters can't?

 

[ThanatosX]

R>F being used here is saying that they view an entire plane of existence as fictional, so they should be 5th Dimensional. They don't have the level of R>F needed to justify that rating.

The point is that the Narrator sees the entirety of the "In Space with Markiplier" as fiction, just a story that he is narrating for getting some money. And the cosmology of ISWM goes in depth about the number of Universes, specifying that there is an infinite amount of choices and each one sparks a new Universe with his own Space-time.
The Narrator sees this entire 2-A structure as fictional, calling himself an higher dimensional being, is able to comunicate even in the Wormhole that is an anomaly outside space and time, and when every possible timeline collapse he is still there, denoting the fact that he is indeed in a higher dimension.
I really struggle to understand why all of this wouldn't qualify.

I don't know who you want me to ping.

I would like to hear at least the opinion of Ultima and DT, considering they are the ones that made the tiering system and as such should know with certainty if this qualify or not.
Maybe some other staff members that are knowlogeable with Tier 1 and such would be useful.
And it's now because I don't trust your opinion, but because considering that this would set a precedent I need to have as much input as possible before making threads with incomplete informations.

Alright. Make the thread for KEVIN then, because I'm not seeing a Low 1-C justification for these characters.

If this CRT is refuted, I will indeed make a Only Staff thread to discuss our standards regarding the R>F difference, because for too many time I have seen it being applied arbitrarely.
If this revision is refuted, than at least this following characters will be affected since they are Tier 1 for identical reasons:

• The Player from Undertale (because I checked and the changes were made here, before the conclusions could be made, and the changes were never reverted since I already shared with you the conclusion of that thread), since it's us, the real life people that plays the game.
• The Player from Imscared, he has similiar reasoning as the Undertale Player.
• KEVIN, he is basically the same as the Narrator.
• Even the Writer, the powerful Tier 0 that trascends the Overvoid, a High 1-A being, in reality is just a normal human being in the real world that have no power over the real world itself, and if I remember correctly gets killed by a random dude for this exact reason.
• Arguably, even SCP-001, a Tier 0 too, would be affected, considering they are just the human being that made the SCP website in the first place, and as we know they don't have any power over the Real World.

And this are the ones that comes off the top of my mind and that I know, there are surely many others that I don't know.
As you can see, this would apply to many characters, so it's indeed important to understand exactly why it doesn't count so that we can make some solid standards.

Just because I disagree with your argument does not make me biased. Just like how you're not biased for thinking the characters are Low 1-C. People can disagree about how ratings should be applied or how they count, but that doesn't make people biased for arguing against something. It means they disagree with it.

I don't agree, everyone is biased in one way or another. As human beings, it's impossible to avoid being biased towards something, we can just try to go past it to look at things objectively.
I hate the She-Hulk ending with burning passion, and it hurts me that KEVIN is the character that brought the MCU to Low 1-C, but for our current standards he classify as a Tier 1, regardless of my opinion of him.
In this case maybe my bias would be in favor of the Narrator, but following previous standards, he should classify regardless of my opinion on him.
I respect you, you are one of the most level-headed user in here despite our disagreements, but at the same time we need more input because, as the standards are right now, the Narrator would classify as Low 1-C, and if he does not than many others wont.

 

[Qawsedf234]

The Wormhole is what allows them (the lower characters) to do this, not their own power. It is still made clear that the Narrator and Actor are above them and can directly effect them and their world. That's the handwave.

This was my main hangup. I didn't know the context of the wormhole and thought it was just a normal wormhole.

If this is the handwave and you're able to explain it in a profile, then yeah it would be Low 1-C. Since like with the 4th World in DC or with She-Hulk it's a character reaching a higher narrative due to something else rather than directly interacting with it.

 

[ThanatosX]

This was my main hangup. I didn't know the context of the wormhole and thought it was just a normal wormhole.

If this is the handwave and you're able to explain it in a profile, then yeah it would be Low 1-C. Since like with the 4th World in DC or with She-Hulk it's a character reaching a higher narrative due to something else rather than directly interacting with it.

Right, we should probably have said that earlier, lol.
Anyways, yes. The Captain is able to reach the Narrator only thanks to the Crystal.
The Crystal is the object that the Captain have on his wirst, and it's an anomaly that exists in a void outside the entire cosmology, without an actual point of creation and as such is a paradoxical existence. This object is able to generate Wormholes, but a single Wormhole created by the Crystal was enough to cause all the Infinite Universes to start collapsing, causing all the events of the show.
Thanks to it's properties, the Wormholes created by the Crystal can bring someone anywhere, be it another Universe (as seen multiple times in the show) the void outside the Multiverse (where the Crystal was situated and attached itself to the Captain) or even an higher dimension (the dimension of the Narrator, which is even shocked to see him there considering that he should just be a fictional character).

 

[ShockingPsychic]

Is one staff approval enough to apply this?

I could make some sandboxes, and run them past the thread as well.

 

[Elizhaa]

I guess the changes seem fine. It could be fine to apply.