Charlotte Katakuri vs Kaname Tosen | Bleach vs One Piece | 10-1-0 (GRACE)

Kachon123 · Friday at 22:12

The sauciest Gotei 13 captain vs the sauciest og Yonko first commander

Speed is equalized and Tosen has prior knowledge on Katakuri's devil fruit ability
Location: Hueco Mundo
Starting Distance: 20 meters

AP:

Katakuri: 200.99 Gigatons, 17.25 Teratons with Edged Mochi
Tosen: At most 38.9448 Teratons

LS:

Katakuri: 90445095295 Metric Tons physically, 1.67571545e14 Metric Tons with Mochi
Tosen: 164,887.8 Metric Tons

Katakuri: 10 (@Kachon123, @Arkansalter2, @IbukiDoujisGiantTail, @EtherealCrater, @TauanVictor, @Foriaa, @MonkeyOfLife, @Nonynho, @MSahla, @Qawsedf234)
Tosen: 1 (@Mickey1940)
Inconclusive:

TauanVictor · Friday at 22:56

Well, Tosen's Bankai is really useful with someone that have extra senses and could keep fighting?

Foriaa · Friday at 23:12

Can't Kat just use fs to see susumushi and plug his ears with mochi beforehand?

Kachon123 · Friday at 23:49

Katakuri's mochi intangibility makes him difficult to damage conventionally, but since Tosen's attacks directly affect the soul, he'd need to defend with Haki. Because Tosen has higher AP than Katakuri's Haki durability, Katakuri would have a slightly more difficult time blocking Tosen's attacks than Tosen would have blocking his.

I believe Katakuri has the advantage before Tosen activates Bankai. Tosen's Shikai abilities are either countered or negated by Katakuri's kit. Suzumushi's sound manipulation wouldn't work due to earplugs, while Suzumushi Nishiki: Benihikō can be dodged with Future Sight and body control. He could probably just clash with it by using a Power Mochi barrage too.

Once Tosen activates Bankai, the advantage begins to shift in his favor. Tosen's Bankai negates ESP, which would logically include basic Kenbun's ESP as well. If basic Kenbun's ESP is negated, then Future Sight should also be affected since it is just an advanced application of the same sensory ability. Because of this, Katakuri would be forced to rely just on Kenbun's instinctive action instead of its precog. While Katakuri is definitely skilled enough to fight under these conditions, Tosen is far from an opponent who can be underestimated, and losing one of Katakuri's greatest advantages would be a significant handicap.

That said, there is a strong argument that Katakuri prevents Bankai from being used in the first place. Katakuri has used Future Sight to interrupt opponents before they could activate techniques, like when he stopped Luffy from using Gear 4th by suffocating him with mochi. Given the insane LS advantage between the two, this would be an instant incap win.

One big factor is Tosen's prior knowledge of Katakuri's Devil Fruit as mentioned in the OP. If Tosen suspects that Katakuri will try to stop his Bankai, it would make sense for him to create distance by flying up in air before using it. However since Tosen doesn't prior knowledge of Katakuri's Haki, idrk if he would expect his Bankai being predicted in advance.

Overall, I lean toward Katakuri. He has a noticeable advantage over Shikai Tosen, and Tosen would likely struggle to consistently deal with both Future Sight and Katakuri's mochi abilities. I can easily see a scenario where Tosen tries to fly in the air to safely activate Bankai, only for Katakuri to foresee it and create a Power Mochi fist along Tosen's flight path, knocking him back to the ground and incapping with a large wave of mochi before Bankai ever comes into play.

Arkansalter2 · Friday at 23:59

I lean Kata. Mostly because Kata has something known as his damn fruit. Anything remotely AOE like a mochi floor move would just get Tosen stuck and nearly defenseless. He can probably do a dozen donut move to barrage him with like mad punches and crap. Or if things really get nifty, kata can just.. do the buzzcut move and just obliterate his shii.
Kata, mid diff.

Mickey1940 · Saturday at 00:09

once Bankai is up, Tosen just uses Kido and vaporizes Katakuri with fire

without Buso Katakuri is over a hundred times weaker so he just gets 1 shot, mochi intangibility doesn't help cuz fire is really funny, even with buso he can't track Tosen in his Bankai, and Tosen is more than smart enough to realize this this weird mochi man is dodging everything as if he can see the future because he literally is, so he can just move away from katakuri in order to prevent him from stopping bankai and blast him gg

if he covers himself in buso constantly then Katakuri can survive but he just gets blasted anyways, he can't do anything and Tosen can just keep his Bankai up the entire time gg

shunpo is also a blitz level amp cuz katakuri doesn't have soru for some reason so it's also really funny

what does Katakuri even do here

voting Tosen

Kachon123 · Saturday at 00:09

Arkansalter2 said:
Anything remotely AOE like a mochi floor move would just get Tosen stuck and nearly defenseless

Tosen can fly

Arkansalter2 said:
He can probably do a dozen donut move to barrage him with like mad punches and crap

Tosen can do the same with his Shikai

MSahla · Saturday at 00:13

~~I luv donuts so Katakuri FRA~~

Kachon123 · Saturday at 00:13

Mickey1940 said:
without Buso Katakuri is over a hundred times weaker so he just gets 1 shot, mochi intangibility doesn't help cuz fire is really cool, even with buzo he can't track Tosen in his Bankai, and Tosen is more than smart enough to realize this this weird mochi man is dodging everything as if he can see the future because he literally is, so he can just blast him gg

Kenbun gives instinctive action that activates Buso instantly, even during perception blitzes. Buso would activate at just the right areas where Tosen hits.

Mickey1940 · Saturday at 00:15

Kachon123 said:
Kenbun gives instinctive action that activates Buso instantly, even during perception blitzes. Buso would activate at just the right areas where Tosen hits.

that still doesn't stop tosen from just blasting to kingdom come. literally nothing is stopping him. katakuri literally can't do anything cuz he's blind deaf nothing past initial kenbun AND tosen has shunpo so even easier gg

Kachon123 · Saturday at 00:17

Mickey1940 said:
that still doesn't stop tosen from just blasting to kingdom come. literally nothing is stopping him. katakuri literally can't do anything cuz he's blind deaf nothing past initial kenbun AND tosen has shunpo so even easier gg

I don't understand. Why can't he do anything? He still has Kenbun. Kenbun users can have entire fights just using their instinctive action seen by Kin'emon on Punk Hazard

Instinctive Reaction (Kin'emon can sense and fight even without connection to his other senses, as his legs and torso moved around Punk Hazard using only his Kenbunshoku Haki and not any others.[26][27][28] Big Mom and Whitebeard can sense and fight while they're sleeping.[29][30] Rayleigh said that Luffy could unconsciously sense the emotions of living things[6])

Kachon123 · Saturday at 00:19

MSahla said:
~~I luv donuts so Katakuri FRA~~

~~Let me introduce you to a~~ ~~certain man~~

Mickey1940 · Saturday at 00:22

Kachon123 said:
I don't understand. Why can't he do anything? He still has Kenbun. Kenbun users can have entire fights just using their instinctive action seen by Kin'emon on Punk Hazard

because

1. Tosen has shunpo, which is hilarious for obvious reasons
2. Tosen can sense Katakuri at all times while Katakuri will never know where Tosen is at any time
3. Tosen is spamming a ranged attack that melts Katakuri into liquid sugar at all times, and at worst still deals damage cuz tosen is still stronger than buso katakuri

it doesn't matter that Katakuri can endure the barrage of kido when he is still taking said barrage of kido and can't actually do anything back. He'd need to catch Tosen which is impossible cuz bankai + shunpo, so he's just a sitting duck

Kachon123 · Saturday at 00:29

Mickey1940 said:
1. Tosen has shunpo, which is hilarious for obvious reasons

Luffy as of Syrup Village had good enough instinctive action to counter somebody thousands of times faster than him using an attack similar to Shunpo. Katakuri will be fine.

Mickey1940 said:
2. Tosen can sense Katakuri at all times while Katakuri will never know where Tosen is at any time

Not necessarily true. Fruit users are able to sense things that are inside their substance. Katakuri can very easily use his devil fruit awakening to regain sense of most of the things around him.

Mickey1940 said:
3. Tosen is spamming a ranged attack that melts Katakuri into liquid sugar at all times, and at worst still deals damage cuz tosen is still stronger than buso katakuri

Why would it melt Katakuri's mochi? He literally coats it in flames all the time. Tosen is 2x above Katakuri. Katakui's Buso allowed him to straight up tank attacks of this value, without even mentioning the fact that the value has 2 arcs worth of further upscaling. Tosen only scales at most to his value, so they're far closer than you'd first imagine.

Kachon123 · Saturday at 00:32

Also, you've never even addressed Katakuri stopping Tosen from using Bankai in the first place

Kachon123 said:
That said, there is a strong argument that Katakuri prevents Bankai from being used in the first place. Katakuri has used Future Sight to interrupt opponents before they could activate techniques, like when he stopped Luffy from using Gear 4th by suffocating him with mochi. Given the insane LS advantage between the two, this would be an instant incap win.

Kachon123 said:
. I can easily see a scenario where Tosen tries to fly in the air to safely activate Bankai, only for Katakuri to foresee it and create a Power Mochi fist along Tosen's flight path, knocking him back to the ground and incapping with a large wave of mochi before Bankai ever comes into play.

You're arguing from a hypothetical that isn't guaranteed to happen, and even in that best-case scenario for Tosen, there's no guarantee he actually wins

IbukiDoujisGiantTail · Saturday at 01:26

Katakuri FRA

Bankai is Tosen's best chance of success but outside of Bankai he's gonna be playing catch up the entire time against an opponent who can precog/mind read his every action, defend against his primary means of attack/wincon, and can attack at range. Katakuri on the other hand literally needs to get him once with mochi to completely incap him, and even assuming Katakuri is caught in Bankai, the only thing about Kenbun negated would be the ESP, so his instinctive action, mind reading, and increased reaction speed would still be perfectly intact. This also isn't taking into account how touch is still available, and there's nothing stopping Katakuri from just expanding his touch/range by turning the environment into mochi. Tosen might be able to fly but his wincons rely on getting up close since everything else can either be easily dodged or turned into mochi, while Katakuri straight up just has to touch him one time, which he could easily do either up close or at range.

EtherealCrater · Saturday at 02:47

While it is true that Tosen has an AP and Durability advantage over Katakuri. The Accelerated Development granted by Haki should close the gap stat wise. A lot of Tosen's arsenal is countered FRA and in my personal opinion, Bankai shouldn't affect Observation Haki due to the Bankai specifically removing Reiatsu sensing, which Haki doesn't do.

Including my own and FRA, I'm voting Katakuri.

TauanVictor · Saturday at 03:02

Katakuri FRA

Kachon123 · Saturday at 03:23

Counted.

Foriaa · Saturday at 03:24

Kat slimes him

MonkeyOfLife · Saturday at 04:20

Kachon123 said:
Tosen activates Bankai, the advantage begins to shift in his favor. Tosen's Bankai negates ESP, which would logically include basic Kenbun's ESP as well. If basic Kenbun's ESP is negated, then Future Sight should also be affected since it is just an advanced application of the same sensory ability.

Not entirely true, Observation Haki picks up on ones presence, true, That would get negated... but observation haki sensing the intent whenever tosen decides to attack would still get sensed, that's different to the ESP of obs haki... picking up ones emotions in the surroundings

We see it when Luffy can sense Rayleigh's rage but not really his presence (Unconsciously at first)

And it's showcased even further in the anime

Kachon123 · Saturday at 04:23

MonkeyOfLife said:
Not entirely true, Observation Haki picks up on ones presence, true, That would get negated... but observation haki sensing the intent whenever tosen decides to attack would still get sensed, that's different to the ESP of obs haki... picking up ones emotions in the surroundings

We see it when Luffy can sense Rayleigh's rage but not really his presence (Unconsciously at first)

And it's showcased even further in the anime

I was considering intent/emotion sensing as ESP as well as that would count as a 6th sense, but if it's not then fair enough

Mickey1940 · Saturday at 04:41

Kachon123 said:
Luffy as of Syrup Village had good enough instinctive action to counter somebody thousands of times faster than him using an attack similar to Shunpo. Katakuri will be fine.

that's not instinctive action, not to mention tosen can just nuke the inside of the entire bankai not to mention kaname is still faster. Luffy was able to grab the coat of Kuro, which is impressive, but that doesn't mean Katakuri can move out of the way of a massive AOE Kido just because he has good reactions. He still can't get out of the AOE in time even if he sees it coming cuz it's a ******* nuke projectile in a domain he can't escape.

Kachon123 said:
Not necessarily true. Fruit users are able to sense things that are inside their substance. Katakuri can very easily use his devil fruit awakening to regain sense of most of the things around him.

tosen can fly and is still faster so this is irrelevant. The only thing he needs to "regain sense" of is tosen's location which he can't do ever

Kachon123 said:
Why would it melt Katakuri's mochi? He literally coats it in flames all the time. Tosen is 2x above Katakuri. Katakui's Buso allowed him to straight up tank attacks of this value, without even mentioning the fact that the value has 2 arcs worth of further upscaling. Tosen only scales at most to his value, so they're far closer than you'd first imagine.

Mickey1940 said:
Tosen is spamming a ranged attack that melts Katakuri into liquid sugar at all times, and at worst still deals damage cuz tosen is still stronger than buso katakuri

NOT TO MENTION all of Tosen's attacks are soul damage which, while Katakuri has resistance to but his resistance is nowhere near the layered level of Bleach characters, especially not Captain level shinigami like Tosen, who can also kill souls like they're normal people with normal bodies. Tosen can bypass Katakuri's intangibility cuz all of his attacks hit the soul, which Katakuri can't ignore or regenerate from.

heck with this logic ALL of Tosen's abilities would work cuz Katakuri doesn't have layered resistance to soul manipulation and Tosen's soul attacks just hit him normally and eventually kill him with enough exposure. Bankai might not even be necessary cuz Shikai just fills Katakuri with soul blades. If he tries to dodge, Tosen just shunpo perception blitzes away, activates bankai, blasts Katakuri with kido, Katakuri dies after a few hours, gg

there's really nothing Katakuri can do. initial Kenbun isn't enough to survive Tosen's assault when he objectively can't do anything back cuz he can't see or sense Tosen at all in Bankai. He's a sitting duck that goes down after a while

MonkeyOfLife · Saturday at 04:44

Bro thinks Katakuri is a Brook victim

Mickey1940 · Saturday at 04:45

EtherealCrater said:
While it is true that Tosen has an AP and Durability advantage over Katakuri. The Accelerated Development granted by Haki should close the gap stat wise. A lot of Tosen's arsenal is countered FRA and in my personal opinion, Bankai shouldn't affect Observation Haki due to the Bankai specifically removing Reiatsu sensing, which Haki doesn't do.

Including my own and FRA, I'm voting Katakuri.

that's not how Haki's AD works

Accelerated Development: People can learn Haki or gain more advanced Haki in dangerous situations.
- Monkey D. Luffy learned how to use Armament Haki's internal destruction because Hyogoro's explosive collar was about to detonate, while he was unable to learn even a lower level, though still advanced, Armament Haki technique while actively trying training to awaken it.
- Koby learned how to use Observation Haki via being surrounded by combat.

nothing in this description describes anything about stat buffs, and these types of developments only come to be because the users had to be aware of it, unless u're awakening the Initial stage in the first place. Koby developed Kenbun by being in a massively high stress environment when he's never had it before. Luffy learned Advanced and Beyond Advanced Buso and Advanced Kenbun by observing and being aware that said techniques exist. Neither of these situations can be utilized by Katakuri since 1. his Kenbun is already Advanced, 2. he already has the other 2 so he can't unlock anything else from stress, and 3. Tosen doesn't use Haki so he can't learn of the existence of higher-advancements of Haki by observing his opponent like Luffy does.

None of Tosen's arsenal is countered cuz soul damage still hurts despite Katakuri's resistance plus Tosen's is layered plus Tosen fires explosive spammable projectiles while also being basically untouchable from shunpo

MonkeyOfLife · Saturday at 04:50

It's both Accelerated Development and Reactive Power Level...

Mickey1940 · Saturday at 04:50

MonkeyOfLife said:
Bro thinks Katakuri is a Brook victim

Tosen's soul damage is layered simply cuz that's how bleach works

normal souls and anyone who's even a bit spiritually aware has resistance to soul manipulation

basic Hollows and normal shinigami can easily destroy normal souls and have higher level resistances

lieutenants can body normal seated shinigami and have even higher level resistances

captain level shinigami can mog lieutenants and have even even higher level resitances

captains can also harm each other and can obviously mog everyone else below them

Katakuri's soul manipulation isn't layered, and at BEST he takes Tosen's soul-based attacks like normal ones, but at the BAREST MINIMUM he can't ignore them with intangibility. Tosen being able to bypass Katakuri's intangibility in any way means he wins cuz Katakuri can't ignore his attacks anymore.

Even if you assume Katakuri's soul and resistances is as strong as Tosen's (which it's not), Tosen and other captains consistently harm each other so regardless Katakuri will still take damage from all of Tosen's attacks meaning he just gets hit until he dies

MonkeyOfLife · Saturday at 04:53

Mickey1940 said:
Tosen's soul damage is layered simply cuz that's how bleach works

normal souls and anyone who's even a bit spiritually aware has resistance to soul manipulation

basic Hollows and normal shinigami can easily destroy normal souls and have higher level resistances

lieutenants can body normal seated shinigami and have even higher level resistances

captain level shinigami can mog lieutenants and have even even higher level resitances

captains can also harm each other and can obviously mog everyone else below them

Katakuri's soul manipulation isn't layered, and at BEST he takes Tosen's soul-based attacks like normal ones, but at the BAREST MINIMUM he can't ignore them with intangibility. Tosen being able to bypass Katakuri's intangibility in any way means he wins cuz Katakuri can't ignore his attacks anymore.

Even if you assume Katakuri's soul and resistances is as strong as Tosen's (which it's not), Tosen and other captains consistently harm each other so regardless Katakuri will still take damage from all of Tosen's attacks meaning he just gets hit until he dies

layers proof? Show me how many layers tosen's soul manipulation has... You named like 4-5 instances? Is that his layers? That seems more like potences than layers

And also... Katakuri has layered soul resistance (both layered by his willpower and his Haki)

Mickey1940 · Saturday at 04:59

IbukiDoujisGiantTail said:
Katakuri on the other hand literally needs to get him once with mochi to completely incap him,

Tosen just hits the mochi and Katakuri takes damage cuz soul damage is funny, plus Kido can blast away the mochi, plus Tosen shunpo is also funny

IbukiDoujisGiantTail said:
and even assuming Katakuri is caught in Bankai, the only thing about Kenbun negated would be the ESP, so his instinctive action, mind reading, and increased reaction speed would still be perfectly intact.

Tosen's Bankai prevents characters with soul sensing/soul vision from functioning, which is precisely what Kenbun does. Almost all of Kenbun is negated simply cuz of this, meaning his mind reading and future sight are both not a factor. Instinctive action and increased reaction speed is valid tho

IbukiDoujisGiantTail said:
This also isn't taking into account how touch is still available, and there's nothing stopping Katakuri from just expanding his touch/range by turning the environment into mochi. Tosen might be able to fly but his wincons rely on getting up close since everything else can either be easily dodged or turned into mochi, while Katakuri straight up just has to touch him one time, which he could easily do either up close or at range.

Tosen can just use kido. He has more than just shikai and bankai. Projectiles + flight + shunpo prevent this from working, especially since Tosen has prior knowledge of the all of Katakuri's devil fruit powers, making any of this unlikely

MonkeyOfLife said:
layers proof? Show me how many layers tosen's soul manipulation has

And also... Katakuri has layered soul resistance (both layered by his willpower and his Haki)

this I think

but I also described it above. I literally gave the proof with the scaling chain.

Stronger characters in bleach can ignore soul resistances of everyone below them cuz that's just how the power system functions. I already described 4 layers in this (normal soul -> shinigami -> lieutenant -> captain), and there might be even more depending on how bleach is treated

as for Katakuri's, willpower + Haki is 2 layers assuming that's how it works, but Tosen is just above that since he scales to at least 4 from the chain above

Kachon123 · Saturday at 05:02

Mickey1940 said:
that's not instinctive action, not to mention tosen can just nuke the inside of the entire bankai not to mention kaname is still faster. Luffy was able to grab the coat of Kuro, which is impressive, but that doesn't mean Katakuri can move out of the way of a massive AOE Kido just because he has good reactions. He still can't get out of the AOE in time even if he sees it coming cuz it's a ******* nuke projectile in a domain he can't escape.

Why would Katakuri need to escape? He has Armament Haki

Mickey1940 said:
tosen can fly and is still faster so this is irrelevant. The only thing he needs to "regain sense" of is tosen's location which he can't do ever

How is that irrelevant? Your claim was "Katakuri will never know where Tosen is at any time", which is objectively false. Katakuri being able to essentially "see" through his mochi gives him so many options like

Kachon123 · Saturday at 05:03

Mickey1940 said:
Tosen just hits the mochi and Katakuri takes damage cuz soul damage is funny, plus Kido can blast away the mochi, plus Tosen shunpo is also funny

Tosen's Bankai prevents characters with soul sensing/soul vision from functioning, which is precisely what Kenbun does. Almost all of Kenbun is negated simply cuz of this, meaning his mind reading and future sight are both not a factor. Instinctive action and increased reaction speed is valid tho

Tosen can just use kido. He has more than just shikai and bankai. Projectiles + flight + shunpo prevent this from working, especially since Tosen has prior knowledge of the all of Katakuri's devil fruit powers, making any of this unlikely

this I think

but I also described it above. I literally gave the proof with the scaling chain.

Stronger characters in bleach can ignore soul resistances of everyone below them cuz that's just how the power system functions. I already described 4 layers in this (normal soul -> shinigami -> lieutenant -> captain), and there might be even more depending on how bleach is treated

as for Katakuri's, willpower + Haki is 2 layers assuming that's how it works, but Tosen is just above that since he scales to at least 4 from the chain above

Katakuri is accepted as having 7 layers of resistance through Haki.

MonkeyOfLife · Saturday at 05:05

Mickey1940 said:
as for Katakuri's, willpower + Haki is 2 layers assuming that's how it works, but Tosen is just above that since he scales to at least 4 from the chain above

his Haki alone is 7 layers...

MonkeyOfLife · Saturday at 06:12

Guess I'll vote for Katakuri as well then. Has way too many abilities and has the better battlefield control with both future sight and environmental manipulation. With LS, Katakuri would easily incap Tosen if he ever decided to attack. Having no prior information on Kata's future sight, he would be very off guarded and vulnerable against it

Can instantly make the whole area his own... Combined with Obs Haki, tosen's bankai wouldn't be enough to gain a superior advantage

Kachon123 · Saturday at 06:16

Counted. That's grace.

Mickey1940 · Saturday at 15:34

Kachon123 said:
Katakuri is accepted as having 7 layers of resistance through Haki.

ok fair enough

how many layers does Bleach have?

Mommyleona · Saturday at 15:41

MonkeyOfLife said:
his Haki alone is 7 layers...

This is max layers accepted, not how many Kat personally has (not saying he doesnt), and those are Haki layers, not resistance to soul manip layers

All this being constantly thrown into one pile annoys me

Mickey1940 · Saturday at 15:44

Mommyleona said:
This is max layers accepted, not how many Kat personally has (not saying he doesnt), and those are Haki layers, not resistance to soul manip layers

All this being constantly thrown into one pile annoys me

why wouldn't it be thrown into 1 pile?

haki gives inherent resistances, and stronger haki would therefore grant better resistances right?

Mommyleona · Saturday at 15:51

Mickey1940 said:
why wouldn't it be thrown into 1 pile?

haki gives inherent resistances, and stronger haki would therefore grant better resistances right?

Because what they're resisting and overcoming is each other's Haki, the ability itself (soul manip in this case) isn't gaining any layers, and the characters are therefore not gaining any further soul manip resistance layers

Mickey1940 · Saturday at 15:55

Mommyleona said:
Because what they're resisting and overcoming is each other's Haki, the ability itself (soul manip in this case) isn't gaining any layers, and the characters are therefore not gaining any further soul manip resistance layers

how many layers of soul manipulation is Haki resisting at a base level then

I assume based on the profiles it's 2?

Mommyleona · Saturday at 16:01

Mickey1940 said:
how many layers of soul manipulation is Haki resisting at a base level then

I assume based on the profiles it's 2?

I have no idea, because even the original thread that accepted those layers glosses over all specifics and barely has any scans for haki layers themselves
I do not think there are any layers for soul manipulation at all

Charlotte Katakuri vs Kaname Tosen | Bleach vs One Piece | 10-1-0 (GRACE)

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