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Wizard101-A

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Ben_CleverName

Ben_CleverName

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"Time, time, time... see what's become of me..."
It was only a matter of time until Wizard101 hopped on the 1-A waiting train. I'd initially planned to wait for @Eseseso to finish his hax CRTs, but he's been met with some other stuff, so here we go.

This CRT will focus on what I believe are two pieces of evidence for Tier 1 for the verse, one for Low 1-A and one for flat 1-A, and will go over who these should scale to and why.

Prima Materia:
The worlds of the Spiral are stated to be made up of prima materia, which is stated to be the most intrinsic essence of matter, physicality condensed and rarified. What Azoth is to magic, prima materia is to physical substance: each particle contains within a blueprint of what it was harvested from. The Druids of Ravenwood learned how to harvest prima materia to immortalize different pieces of the Spiral through museums. It's worth acknowledging that the Druids were a group of Wizards that learned their magic directly under the tutelage and instruction of Bartleby, the tree of magic, and as such their ability to interact with and utilize prima materia should not be seen as something most wizards could do. The aforementioned traits of prima materia being '''the essence of matter''' and the blueprint for physical substance leads me to conclude that prima materia should be rated at Low Outerversal at its peak.

The Wheel of Existence:
Near the end of Arc 3, the Wizard is introduced to the Kalamar, a group of beings tasked by Grandmother Raven to act as keepers of the Life and Death paradox chain that held Grandfather Spider's Chaos Heart. The Kalamar share a unique belief system regarding the nature of existence and that of opposite forces. The Kalamar express belief in the idea that Life and Death are not truly opposites and are instead two sides of the same thing: a "Wheel". As the Wizard continues to interact with them, it becomes clear that they share this belief regarding more than just life and death. In the side quest titled Ancient Kalamar Secrets, the Wizard is instructed by a Kalamar to read the carvings on a set of prayer columns that are taught to the Kalamar villagers. The text on the carvings reads:
When you read a Book, see more than the words: see the Paper the words are written upon. Look further: see the Tree that made the Paper, the Soil that fed the Tree, and the dead Things that became the Soil. Look further: see the Rain that watered the Tree, the Clouds that loosed the Rain, and the Sky that birthed the Clouds. Outside the illusion of Time you see them all at once. The Book is more than a book: it is the entire universe. So are all things. So are you. Our perceptions tell us that we walk in a straight line from past to future, and that all things around us are but one thing. But time is an illusion: look beyond it, and you will see that existence is a Wheel. The Spiral itself is but an echo of this truth. Step off the Wheel and see the great paradox. Life and Death, Order and Chaos, Light and Shadow: outside our limited perceptions they are one.
Click to expand...
The aforementioned teachings of the Kalamar should be worth more than the religious musings of a group of mystified villagers. This idea about the universe being a Wheel was taught and endorsed by Grandmother Raven herself.

Naturally, the aforementioned text appears to be alluding to something akin to an "All is One cosmology", which is an argument that is popularly used for Tier 0 verses, however, it's important to acknowledge that Bartleby, Grandmother Raven and Grandfather Spider are each regarded as being able to destroy existence altogether, with the latter two threatening to do so during their conflict in Arc 3 of Wizard101. They are further regarded as being wholly unbothered by the destruction of said existence, further supporting the notion of superiority/separability from the Wheel. Even still, the text suggests that from outside a mortal perspective (meaning, from their perspective), the universe is a world of mundane illusion and all things within are part of that shared illusion. I believe this should qualify for qualitative superiority by means of Transduality and/or R>F over existence, and as such any characters that can be reasonably proven to scale around their level, such as the Titans and the Scion of Bartleby should scale. The latter would not possess Beyond-Dimensional Existence, but their magic is at the level shown to where they can keep up with the Storm Titan and their strength comes from Bartleby to begin with.

It's worth noting that I believe there are other characters that I believe may also scale around this level, but they would do so through hax rather than their own being (namely due to the Song of Creation), so I believe they would be best left to another thread.

TLDR: Low 1-A argument stems from prima materia being the most intrinsic essence of matter as well as the blueprint and template for physical substance, thus being the thing that defines what it means for physical substance to be as it is. 1-A argument stems from god-tiers perceiving existence as a world of mundane illusion where opposites and separation are an illusion.

Agree: @Ultima_Reality (With 1-A specifically) @Elizhaa (With 1-A specifically), @DarkDragonMedeus (With 1-A specifically)
Disagree: @Qawsedf234, @Ultima_Reality (With Low 1-A specifically), @Elizhaa (With Low 1-A specifically), @DarkDragonMedeus (With Low 1-A specifically)
 
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Ben_CleverName said:
The aforementioned traits of prima materia being '''the essence of matter''' and the blueprint for physical substance leads me to conclude that prima materia should be rated at Low Outerversal at its peak.
Click to expand...
I mean, why would it be Outerversal? You'd have to prove that it can contain all possible combination of dimensional structures and that's not proven within this post.
Ben_CleverName said:
I believe this should qualify for qualitative superiority by means of Transduality and/or R>F over existence,
Click to expand...
Viewing a world as an illusion in of itself isn't a 1-A justification, its being disconnected from the lower world. Being built on top of an existing cosmology isn't a Tier 1-A justification. If anything its against it.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
I mean, why would it be Outerversal? You'd have to prove that it can contain all possible combination of dimensional structures and that's not proven within this post.
Click to expand...
Low Outerversal, specifically (I'm sure you know that, but I wanted to reiterate because it's the lesser of the two tiers, and in my opinion the less important argument in the OP, as well). And the reason for it is what you just responded to. The reasoning is also posted in the TLDR; it's based on inference. If prima materia is the essence of matter and physical substance, in the sense that it defines what it means for those things to be as they are, then that should naturally include matter and physical substance that exists in higher-dimensional spaces and of any arbitrary size. Neither of these two things (matter and physical substance) are limited by their definitions in terms of size or amount. I understand that historically such inferences would be assumed as NLF due to a lack of direct statements supporting the idea, but such logic doesn't apply to the current tiering system. If it did, then "above dimensions" and "all of space" statements wouldn't be inferred as Low Outerversal by default (which they provably are, going off the Beyond-Dimensional Existence page). On its own, acting as the "essence" might be considered too vague, but when they later go on to compare it to a blueprint and specify that its relationship with physical substance is akin to that of Azoth and magic, it becomes pretty clear what they mean (because in-verse, Azoth is "primordial stuff" that the schools of magic are derived from). I didn't include that in the OP because again, the inference is obvious just based on what's already there.

Qawsedf234 said:
Viewing a world as an illusion in of itself isn't a 1-A justification, its being disconnected from the lower world. Being built on top of an existing cosmology isn't a Tier 1-A justification. If anything its against it.
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What are you even talking about here? I never made any argument about them being "built on top of an existing cosmology". Are you even reading the CRT? I literally specified in the OP that they are distinct and separated from the cosmology, a fact which is already supported on their profiles by the fact that their relationship with the cosmology is metaphorically described as a flattened wheel compared to them. This literally comes off as you seeing the word "over" in my post and assuming that I'm describing it as being "on top of" something rather than the obvious usage of the word being made to describe the "R" in "R>F". Like, just the ">" symbol alone is sometimes read as "over", this shouldn't even be a point of contention.
 
Ben_CleverName said:
prima materia is the essence of matter and physical substance, in the sense that it defines what it means for those things to be as they are, then that should naturally include matter and physical substance that exists in higher-dimensional spaces and of any arbitrary size
Click to expand...
You'd have to show a clear set of evidence of that. None of which has been provided. Simply composing dimensional constructs is not the same as composing every set of theoretical dimensional constructs.

Ben_CleverName said:
logic doesn't apply to the current tiering system
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It does still apply. What happened is that the ceiling was moved if you could prove that those statements are legitimate and work in thst fashion. It's why being beyond something on its own still wouldn't give you a Low 1-A or High 1-B+ rating.

Ben_CleverName said:
inference is obvious just based on what's already there.
Click to expand...
Nothing about this I find obvious. If you have evidence for something there's no reason to withhold it.

Ben_CleverName said:
What are you even talking about here?
Click to expand...
The lower world is embedded within the wheel, which is what I was talking about it being built on a lower cosmology.

Ben_CleverName said:
Are you even reading the CRT?
Click to expand...
Yes. Which is why I asked questions regarding your CRT and quoted them. If you're trying to be dismissive of my opinions then there's no point in continuing this. You can just list me as disagree and wait on other mods to weigh in.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
You'd have to show a clear set of evidence of that. None of which has been provided. Simply composing dimensional constructs is not the same as composing every set of theoretical dimensional constructs.
Click to expand...
This isn't "composing" in a physical sense, though, as I and the scans have reiterated. This isn't a case of them being made up of atoms or something similar thus forming whatever structure is involved, it's the essence of physical substance altogether, it defines what it means for physical substance to be what it is. I've already responded to this line of reasoning, physical substance isn't something that's restricted by size or quantity in this way - you would literally have to create your own definition of physical substance for that to be the case. Mind you, there is the caveat of the prima materia being used to recreate objects (and possibly Spiral Worlds), and those obviously are not Low Outerversal nor are they being argued as such. The argument is specifically for the totality of it.

Qawsedf234 said:
It does still apply. What happened is that the ceiling was moved if you could prove that those statements are legitimate and work in thst fashion. It's why being beyond something on its own still wouldn't give you a Low 1-A or High 1-B+ rating.
Click to expand...
The argument is specifically about the nature of prima materia being the defining essence of physical substance and not "being beyond" physical substance, so this is a non-sequitur.

Qawsedf234 said:
Nothing about this I find obvious. If you have evidence for something there's no reason to withhold it.
Click to expand...
That's fine. I can put you down for Disagree. I've provided what I believe to be sufficient evidence, but as stated previously, this is the lesser of the two arguments and not the one I want to focus too hard on. The only characters that would scale to its peak, to my knowledge, would be the ones that also scale to the 1-A stuff, anyway.

Qawsedf234 said:
The lower world is embedded within the wheel, which is what I was talking about it being built on a lower cosmology.
Click to expand...
How is that relevant? As I said before, the wheel is a metaphor, the language involving the wheel is specifically being used to describe the relationship between existence and the "not mortal" characters like Raven and Spider. The argument isn't meant to be interpreted as "Existence is 1-A and these characters transcend existence", it's "the relationship between these characters and existence suggests that these characters are qualitatively superior to existence".

Qawsedf234 said:
Yes. Which is why I asked questions regarding your CRT and quoted them. If you're trying to be dismissive of my opinions then there's no point in continuing this. You can just list me as disagree and wait on other mods to weigh in.
Click to expand...
As I said, I will acknowledge your disagreement, but you were/are openly strawmanning my arguments, which is why I called into question whether or not you read it, especially pertaining to the distinction between these characters and existence.
 
I'm not sure on low 1-A so I'm neutral on it.

1-A seems to be pretty clear as the beings beyond the wheel see time (existence) as illusory and all dual distinction as the same from their perspective.
 
Ben_CleverName said:
The aforementioned traits of prima materia being '''the essence of matter''' and the blueprint for physical substance leads me to conclude that prima materia should be rated at Low Outerversal at its peak.
Click to expand...
I don't think that's Low 1-A at all. "Essence" here is very vague and seems to be used in the common everyday sense of "A condensed extract of something," especially given the stuff about Prima Materia being "harvested out" of objects.

1-A is fine, though. Being above spatiotemporal distinctions and seeing them as illusory is a pretty straightforward deal, so, yeah.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
I don't think that's Low 1-A at all. "Essence" here is very vague and seems to be used in the common everyday sense of "A condensed extract of something," especially given the stuff about Prima Materia being "harvested out" of objects.

1-A is fine, though. Being above spatiotemporal distinctions and seeing them as illusory is a pretty straightforward deal, so, yeah.
Click to expand...
So 1-A is fine for the God Tiers (Spider, Raven, Bartleby, etc.), correct?
 
Ultima_Reality said:
I don't think that's Low 1-A at all. "Essence" here is very vague and seems to be used in the common everyday sense of "A condensed extract of something," especially given the stuff about Prima Materia being "harvested out" of objects.
Click to expand...
The primary selling point for it being the "impressive" kind of essence was in the fact that it's also referred to as the blueprint for physical substance, which seems to be inline with how "essence" is used in the more "metaphysical" definition of the word, to me - but your opinion is noted, thanks for commenting.
 
I don’t know if this is off topic but will Bartelby and the Divine Nothing get a higher key? The new world Wallaru revealed that Bartelby has a greater true self beyond his own awareness that dreams the entire spiral into being. And the Divine Nothing was I think shown to be on the same level.
 
Xearsay said:
I don’t know if this is off topic but will Bartelby and the Divine Nothing get a higher key? The new world Wallaru revealed that Bartelby has a greater true self beyond his own awareness that dreams the entire spiral into being. And the Divine Nothing was I think shown to be on the same level.
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The Dreamer isn't necessarily a "greater" true self of Bartleby, but it's probably worth giving them a new key or profile. I don't agree with Dasein being on the same level, though. There isn't really anything that makes him come off as similar to the Dreamer aside from them both being described as "unreal" and thus outside of Bartleby's vision. Dasein does deserve another key for Novus, I'm just not too sure if it'll scale to the 1-A stuff. I don't think it's unreasonable to have him that high, because it's sort of implied that most of his stuff is coming from the Song of Creation (indirectly), but it wouldn't be through Beyond-Dimensional Existence but rather the assumption that they're relative to the Player.

Edit: Might not have been clear because it's technically a spoiler, but Dasein is the Divine Nothing's in-lore name.
 
There are the old threads that give more elaborations on nature of transcendence. I think the god tier saw the world as a wheel, not something that is literal as something embedded, so reality fiction interaction can still be valid.
From the past thread, the time butterfly is 4th dimensional, as its true name can only be pronounced and understood in a 4th-dimensional language, which could further support that the wheel is a metaphor, not a literal one.
 
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Ao
Elizhaa said:
There are the old threads that give more elaborations on nature of transcendence. I think the god tier saw the world as a wheel, not something that is literal as something embedded, so reality fiction interaction can still be valid.
From the past thread, the time butterfly is 4th dimensional, as its true name can only be pronounced and understood in a 4th-dimensional language, which could further support that the wheel is a metaphor,, not a literal one.
Click to expand...
so do you agree or disagree with 1A
 
Nierre said:
Ben_CleverName with the clever name of a CRT
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r7udGbD.png
 
Profiles that will be affected, by the way: @Eseseso said he will edit the profiles.

Grandfather Spider (Self Explanatory)
Grandmother Raven (Self Explanatory)
Bartleby (Self Explanatory)
The Player (Arc 3, Divine Paradox and arc 4- Forged a link with Bartleby in arc 3, becoming his scion, on a similar level to the trio)
Dasein (Self Explanatory/Relative to the player)
The Aeythr Titan (Is powered by the hatred between Raven and Spider which allowed him to nearly kill Spider and Raven)
The Storm Titan, The Ice Titan, The Fire Titan (Similar standing to the trio, relative to The Player)
The Bat (Is Spider's dream made into a living thing, comparable to The Player)
Mellori (Is Raven's heart/Raven's love for Spider/is a part of Raven, relative to The Player, helped him fight a weakened spider, and due to her essence can destroy the paradox chains created by Raven.)
The Devourer (Comparable to arc 3 Player)

The Creator (Wizard101) would also scale, however, he was part of a very old set of quest lines, which have been removed, and he was never mentioned again, so I think his profile should probably be deleted.
 
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Zenkaibattery1 said:
Profiles that will be affected, by the way: @Eseseso said he will edit the profiles.

Grandfather Spider (Self Explanatory)
Grandmother Raven (Self Explanatory)
Bartleby (Self Explanatory)
The Player (Arc 3, Divine Paradox and arc 4- Forged a link with Bartleby in arc 3, becoming his scion, on a similar level to the trio)
Dasein (Self Explanatory/Relative to the player)
The Aeythr Titan (Is powered by the hatred between Raven and Spider which allowed him to nearly kill Spider and Raven)
The Storm Titan, The Ice Titan, The Fire Titan (Similar standing to the trio, relative to The Player)
The Bat (Is Spider's dream made into a living thing, comparable to The Player)
Mellori (Is Raven's heart/Raven's love for Spider/is a part of Raven, relative to The Player, helped him fight a weakened spider, and due to her essence can destroy the paradox chains created by Raven.)
The Devourer (Comparable to arc 3 Player)
Click to expand...
Rattlebones and Ambrose need to be updated - the former only in his Shadowbones key and the latter only in the "Shadow Ambrose" key (why is it even called that, it should be Dream Ambrose). Both keys involve directly fighting against and stalling the Wizard in Arc 3. Shadowbones is given a direct amp from Spider and Dream Ambrose was created by Mellori in the Reverie.

Edit: Also it's not really Zen's fault for not mentioning these - he asked me earlier if that was all the directly affected profiles and I said yes because I forgot these two.
 
Ben_CleverName said:
What would you have preferred to see for evidence? Transcending existence to the extent that it's considered illusory is textbook 1-A.
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Illusions aren't r>f transcendence and lower dimensional ,after doesn't exist in higher dimensions, so it can still be a quantitative superiority rather than a qualitative superiority which, given the lack of further clarification, likely true.
 
Infinitinet said:
Illusions aren't r>f transcendence and lower dimensional ,after doesn't exist in higher dimensions, so it can still be a quantitative superiority rather than a qualitative superiority which, given the lack of further clarification, likely true.
Click to expand...
I genuinely don't even know what you're trying to say with this other than maybe "seeing something as illusory isn't R>F" which is blatantly false given the premise of 1-A, of Reality-Fiction Transcendence, and the word of the guy who literally wrote up the current definition of the tier and who agreed with the CRT previously. If you're insinuating that lower-dimensional things don't exist in higher-dimensional spaces then that's just semantically false altogether. You can easily have squares and circles in a 3D space, they just wouldn't extend outward to the entirety of said space.
 
Infinitinet said:
Illusions aren't r>f transcendence and lower dimensional ,after doesn't exist in higher dimensions, so it can still be a quantitative superiority rather than a qualitative superiority which, given the lack of further clarification, likely true.
Click to expand...
seeing a lower reality as fiction or illusory literally entails seeing something as "not real" since neither fiction or illusion have any substance (and it's also within the definition that illusions are unreal)
 
Zenkaibattery1 said:
Profiles that will be affected, by the way: @Eseseso said he will edit the profiles.

Grandfather Spider (Self Explanatory)
Grandmother Raven (Self Explanatory)
Bartleby (Self Explanatory)
The Player (Arc 3, Divine Paradox and arc 4- Forged a link with Bartleby in arc 3, becoming his scion, on a similar level to the trio)
Dasein (Self Explanatory/Relative to the player)
The Aeythr Titan (Is powered by the hatred between Raven and Spider which allowed him to nearly kill Spider and Raven)
The Storm Titan, The Ice Titan, The Fire Titan (Similar standing to the trio, relative to The Player)
The Bat (Is Spider's dream made into a living thing, comparable to The Player)
Mellori (Is Raven's heart/Raven's love for Spider/is a part of Raven, relative to The Player, helped him fight a weakened spider, and due to her essence can destroy the paradox chains created by Raven.)
The Devourer (Comparable to arc 3 Player)

The Creator (Wizard101) would also scale, however, he was part of a very old set of quest lines, which have been removed, and he was never mentioned again, so I think his profile should probably be deleted.
Click to expand...
I'll go ahead and unlock them.
 
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