Beyond's Qualitative Superiority (JORGE JOESTAR)

Beyond is the Literal Author of the world of JORGE JOESTAR and views all of it as a story​

"….........." "Let me say exactly what I mean. Say that I'm Sherlock Holmes. Then I'm certain that I have something outside of this world serving as my Arthur Conan Doyle. I am as certain of this as I am certain that I am a detective. And I have a name for this thing guiding me from somewhere not of this world. I call it: Beyond." ... Tsukumojuku wasn't done spouting nonsense. "But here I am speaking in the present tense, when really, this is all in the past. Like I said at the start, I no longer have the certainty required to call myself a detective. My Beyond has abandoned me. I'm still me, but my role in this world is no longer guaranteed by Beyond. Beyond has chosen a new protagonist for this world...for this story. You, Jorge Joestar. This is the last thing I'm certain of." Hunh? What in the...? ... He blinked at me. "Ah! Ha! Ha! No, I doubt it. Your story already has monsters and mystic powers in it, so I doubt you'll end up being a detective," he chuckled. "I think you'll play the character of Jorge Joestar in a story called Jorge Joestar."

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"No. I call this god "Beyond" - and I'm certain that this god has lined you and the other Jorge Joestar up for a reason, for some greater purpose. It must have been Beyond's power that sent me here." "And not because I solved the 15-puzzle?" "You did. But think of it this way: Beyond set you on that path, and summoned me here. See? What most people imagine when they hear the word god is something all-powerful, that never explains itself to humans, that acts in a seemingly arbitrary fashion. Irrational, devoid of logic. But not here. The god I call Beyond prepared that 15-puzzle for you. I believe that there was a reason why Beyond had to do that. You're a detective, and to some extent the nature of the world becomes predictable. Lords knows, as a detective myself, I'm sick of explaining to people that because I am there, everything has meaning. Just like the arrival of a detective in a mystery novel. In a sense, Beyond is a mystery novelist. Beyond is writing a mystery novel in which you are the detective. And you should be aware of that fact."

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Think. What did believing in Beyond entail? It meant there was an author writing a story with me as the main character.

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I'd been told, Believe in Beyond, and you will overcome your fate. So I'd tried to believe. Believing in Beyond meant...there was an author writing a story with me as the main character. And in a story, you couldn't have things that didn't make sense or just showed up out of the blue. So I had to create the flow. What did 'narrative flow' mean here?

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Beyond is not a part of the world and transcends it​

"….........." "Let me say exactly what I mean. Say that I'm Sherlock Holmes. Then I'm certain that I have something outside of this world serving as my Arthur Conan Doyle. I am as certain of this as I am certain that I am a detective. And I have a name for this thing guiding me from somewhere not of this world. I call it: Beyond."

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For the first time in god knows how long, I remembered the words my friend Tsukumojuku had said. And I have a name for this thing guiding me from somewhere not of this world. I call it: Beyond.

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BEYOND An entity that controls the protagonist in a place that transcends the world

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Beyond is referred to as ‘All-Powerful’, ‘Omnipotent’ and God/The Trinity​

Tsukumojuku laughed. "Your Beyond is making it happen. I'm sure this isn't a task just anyone could accomplish. For a Miracle like this to occur, you need the Name of God. 'God' is words. Words are names." This was even more cryptic, but if he was rabbiting on about Beyond again then this was definitely Tsukumojuku, so I relaxed. I'd missed that, too. "Is your weird ass name the name of God?" "Yes. Tsukumojuku is 9, 10, 9, 10, 9. If you flip the kanji for 9, 九, you get the astrological symbol for Jupiter, ♃, Jupiter being the Roman name for the Greek god Zeus. The God of Gods. The kanji for ten, 十, is a cross; so my name has three all-powerful gods linked together by two crosses. If God is the Trinity, then God can be split into three. I am in the Arrow Cross House, I am here, and I am trying to connect to a third me. You have go to where he is. Take my hand."

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If I used Beyond, Tsukumojuku would come. What I needed was a way to use it. Think. What narrative would allow him to come? I remember the last thing he'd said to me. The nature of my name suggests that we'll meet again, one more time. Right. His name? Come to think of it, fifteen years ago he'd said some nonsense about his name. Tsukumojuku. Tsukumojuku is 9, 10, 9, 10, 9. My name has three all-powerful gods linked together by two crosses. The name of God. Right. Because he had the name of God he'd come for me again. But why had it put it like that? What was there to his name? There must be something. There must be a meaning to that "all-powerful god" and "cross". I remembered that I'd borrowed a Japanese dictionary from Tsukumojuku once and flipped through it a bit. "Argh! Show me your ****! Heh heh heh! What the...that ain't your ****! What the hell! Grown-up ***** are gross! That's disgusting! I'm gonna puke!" Antonio shrieked, and warm vomit splattered down on my exposed crotch. Chewed up bits of William Cardinal's insides. Japanese characters don't just symbolize sounds. They also show meaning, and there's breadth to that meaning. This breadth is why 九 could mean '9' and "omnipotent god." And why 十 could be '10' and a "cross". The shape of the kanji was a metaphorical symbol. In Japanese, you could manipulate that meaning to 'convey' that one thing was another. Force open a path, and allow meaning to pass down it. So back to Tsukumojuku. 九十九十九. Him giving me that dictionary when he left felt like the work of Beyond to me. It let me understand. I was extremely glad I'd learned just how broad the meaning of Japanese words could be.

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At last Dio realized what I was doing. He screamed. "No, no! Stoooooop! That's my bodyyyyy! I trained it, I made it the ultimate being! It's mine! Noooooooooooooo!" I ignored him, and put Jonathan Joestar's head right on the fresh cut stump of the mummified 'holy man'. Jonathan Joestar's head looked even fresher, and it matched the cut perfectly. This was the place where it belonged, and now it was back. Human bodies had such strong identities, I thought; all of this was only possible because me and the other 'Jorge Joestar' and Dio all had Beyonds, but those three Beyonds were actually one. The Trinity.

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• Jorge is with Tsukumojuku in England (I am here)
• Joji is in the Arrow Cross House (I am in the Arrow Cross House)
• Dio is in the Coffin (I am trying to connect to a third me)

We all gasped. "Solved it!?" Julio shrieked. "What a load of crap! We found Antonio's body, and the police had only just arrived when we left! That was less than an hour ago! You're not a cop – how would you even know he was dead!? And here you are claiming to have solved the case!?" "Because I did," Tsukumojuku said. "But how...!?" Julio said, at a loss for words. "You know that. Because I'm a detective, Julio Gonzales. I happened to pass the Torres residence mere moments after you came bursting out of it – some would say fate brought me there," he added, cryptically. Tsukumojuku turned to look at me. "But it seems fate is leading me in a different direction." As I stood my ground against his piercing stare, I wondered how he could speak in such a grown-up, mannered fashion. Was he really eleven? No – he hadn't had a birthday yet, so he was only ten. Then it struck me. This was the first time I'd ever talked to him face to face. "Um," I said, my voice shaking. "So...you solved the murder of Antonio Torres?" Was Lisa Lisa involved? "So I thought." Past tense? "So...you didn't?" Instead of answering, he asked, "Jorge, have you ever read a detective novel?" "…? A detective novel? Um...I think we have some in the house, but..." "It's a genre of novels that began about sixty years ago, in 1841, when the American writer Edgar Allen Poe published a story called The Murders in the Rue Morgue. The salient points of the genre, obviously, are that the murder appears to be impossible, and is then solved by a genius detective." "Obviously? How would I know that? My mum said they weren't for children to read. I don't like scary books anyway. What's your point?" "But you understand the concept of a detective?" "Like Sherlock Holmes?" "Exactly. A fictional device, a role destined to always arrive at the truth in the end." "So?" "That's me." "...okay? So what?" "A detective surveys all evidence, understands the case in full, and at last arrives at a perfect solution."

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So, time to go investigate. I kept the pebble, Daibakusho Curry took the rubber ball, and Runbaba 12 the orphaned shoe. Runbaba 12 tried to convince us to trade with him but Buccellati roared, "Enough!" and I looked at Narancia and saw someone standing next to him. It was Tsukumojuku. "….........!" He grinned at me. "Hey! I am your instrument. A person needs your help. I'll take you to them." He grabbed my shoulder."Yo, what the ****?" Narancia yelled, pushing me aside and pointing his knife at Tsukumojuku. In that instant we jumped. "Whoops. Brought an anomaly along, but... it all means something, I'm sure. Bye!" Tsukumojuku vanished, leaving me and Narancia. On the H.G. Wells, an American spacecraft launched by NASA. Passing around the dark side of Mars on its journey to thered planet, about to make a new discovery. Namely, that, in addition to Phobos and Diemos, Mars had a previously undetected third moon. Previously undetected because Mars had always been between it and the Earth

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"My name is Enrico Pucci. May I ask your names?" Narancia didn't appear to speak English, so I answered, telling him my name and address. This made Pucci's eyes widen momentarily. "? What?" "...nothing," he said. Clearly there was something. Hey! I am your instrument. Someone needs you. I'll take you to him. That's what Tsukumojuku had said. Who was it who needed me? What did he mean, he was my instrument? He seemed as if he knew everything, understood everything, but threw me off the deep end without even attempting to explain. Without even explaining how he came to be still alive. ...was it even possible that he wasn't dead? I couldn't believe that he'd been faking his death. I'd seen a photograph of Tsukumojuku, his head hanging back, cut through the neck until it was barely attached to his body. Was there any chance that photo had been a mistake, a trap, or a fake?

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Pucci's eyes gleamed. "It is. You're a good detective. You always find the right answer. But not where it concerns the onewho brought you here. The one who vanished soon after. You don't understand what Tsukumojuku Kato said. Yet." Hey! I am your instrument. Someone needs you. I'll take you to him. He'd read my memories. By pulling that disc out of me. Watching my surprise, Pucci smiled, as if having a very good day. "Detectives are a wonderful thing. Everything has meaning, hunh?" "There's a important, inflexible law that defines the world." "…...........?" "Everything has meaning. Nothing is out of place." "God is everywhere," Pucci said. "God is the word. The word has meaning. Thus, everything in this world has meaning. I see! You coming here, too, has meaning. And you were brought here because someone here has need of you. Who could that be?"

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Other misc stuff/Trivia​

• Other instances in the novel also point towards the Trinity concept, such as the Beyond by Dio’s side being depicted as Jesus.
• The JORGE JOESTAR novel was first released on September 19th, 2012. In Japanese, September 19th can be written as 9-19, which is 九十九. The paperback version was then released on December 19th, 2017. In Japanese, 19 is written as 十九. Combine the two together and you get 九十九十九 or Tsukumojuku, the name of God as described in this novel. So yeah, it gets really meta.
• The number 19 above having major importance is no coincidence as it is also an important number in The Simons Case, a book within Ryūsui Seiryōin's JDC Series, where a number of characters from that book also feature in this novel.

TL;DR​

Karabach-barabach said:

Disagree, no questions asked

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Chariot190 said:

This is super self-evident given Jorge Joestar is actually a sequel to another book in a meta-sense, that involves a bunch of R>F and meta bullshit, which Tsukumojuku himself calls back to (He himself is more meta than say, Deadpool, that's his whole ass gimmick). (Popular meta novel Disco Wednesday, is in the same line of books as Jorge Joestar for example too, and Joji's time dilation, is derived from a past book). Jorge Joestar is, in and of itself a meta book, it isn't directly connected to them, but it does directly rip and then repurpose stuff from them, Tsuku, being the meta **** he is, even acknowledges that in this new book, he is no longer the main character.

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Agnaa said:

The first two parts of "Beyond is referred to as ‘All-Powerful’, ‘Omnipotent’ and God/The Trinity" are nonsense; those quotes are about Tsukumojuku, not about Beyond. Tsukumojuku was established as having had the favour of Beyond before the events of the story, but not any more. And regardless, he is a distinct entity from the being that he has the favour of.

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Agnaa said:

The other books involving him had similar explanations, and they had no Beyond or anything similar to it.

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Agnaa said:

While those books are incredibly meta, they don't actually have anything that qualifies for R>F. Disco's meta allusions never go above the place where the story takes place, while the Tsukumojuuku book has many very explicit anti-feats.

Still, I don't expect that supplementary stuff to be particularly important for whether this thread passes or not. And I don't expect there to be actual concrete anti-feats that people are just overlooking, given the "The three Beyonds are actually one" stuff.

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Chariot190 said:

They're about both, double meaning type shit (or more like quad meaning). Which the novel goes out of it's to way specify actually.
Tsukumojuku's very name, represents Beyond in the context of the novel. And through that context, Jorge learns what Beyond is.

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Chariot190 said:

Second one especially actually, that whole scene is Jorge figuring out how to use Beyond using tsuku's name as a hint.
Though, both those quotes happen way, way after Tsuku had them, specifically, Tsuku had long since been dead already, he had his head cut off (I actually forget by who? Kira, Pucci? eh it dont matter, just know his ass was straight up dead). When those lines were said, tsuku is nothing but a plot device for Beyond, as an act of relay, which, he promptly does.

Here's the full scene below.

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1. I need help from Beyond.
2. Beyond, as an author, would care about narrative flow.
3. Tsukumojuku is associated with Beyond, and said he'd meet me again.
4. Tsukumojuku said his name would help me see him again.
5. So I need to deduce the right narrative flow from that name that would cause Tsukumojuku to reappear, since that would cause Beyond to appear and help me.

Chariot190 said:

Well, yeah? Beyond is JoJo equilavent of the triplets (I think that's the intent anyway?). Like obviously not them, but JJ is basically a JDC book thing with a JoJo theming, Beyond takes the role of the obligatory author shoe-in, but tweaked to fit the context and setting and vibes of JoJo, but like it has the some position as them as "an author writing a book".

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Chariot190 said:

Was moreso referring to the novel with the triplets. Disco was me simply mentioning the most popular book from said author, as an example of a book JJ draws from. Wouldve been more specific using the book with the beyond time shit (it's been so long but the book where bro could like, see past the curtains of time and whatnot, forget how it was described) but I frugot what that one was called (Joji's time slow when he focuses, due to his internal time no longer running with the outside, is a pretty hard rip of that for example).

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Chariot190 said:

But eh, I'm sure OP can do a better job of explaining, I don't exactly have any Beyond scans on hand bar the single one in the OP and one where Petty calls Beyond a type of God and as long as ya believe in it you won't die (which the above scene calls back to actually).

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Chariot190 said:

Though, both those quotes happen way, way after Tsuku had them, specifically, Tsuku had long since been dead already, he had his head cut off (I actually forget by who? Kira, Pucci? eh it dont matter, just know his ass was straight up dead).

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Agnaa said:

Maybe from other quotes, but I don't think so from the stuff presented here.

I don't read that as Tsuku's name being a hint at using Beyond. I think the logic of that scene is:

1. I need help from Beyond.
2. Beyond, as an author, would care about narrative flow.
3. Tsukumojuku is associated with Beyond, and said he'd meet me again.
4. Tsukumojuku said his name would help me see him again.
5. So I need to deduce the right narrative flow from that name that would cause Tsukumojuku to reappear, since that would cause Beyond to appear and help me.

So Tsukumojuku's name isn't meant to be a hint at Beyond's nature or anything. It's about Tsukumojuku, and would justify him reappearing, and Beyond helping.

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Agnaa said:

By the triplets, I think you're referring to the book Tsukumojuuku, where the main character Tsukumo Juuku is eventually revealed to have originally been born as three conjoined triplets with connected brains. Where they aren't really a transcendent entity (unless you read the ending as meaning that the events of the book are a dream invented by him to cope with his trauma). So I don't think that's a helpful equivalence to draw here.

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Oliver_de_jesus said:

So, not should this be put in queue/closed?

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Chariot190 said:

Bump? Or are we not doing this anymore.

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Karabach-barabach said:

Call in a mod and ask him to put this thread in a queue

Speaking of mods, Agnaa, since you actually replied here and I think get notifs from this thread, can you close it? Pretty please?

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Karabach-barabach said:

Since this got opened, put me in diasgree. I could've agreed, if not for JoJo fans

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Chariot190 said:

You literally just contradicted yourself. You're going to need to elaborate now.

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Karabach-barabach said:

Disagree, no questions asked

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Karabach-barabach said:

I deadass forgot I wrote here before, repeating myself, lmao. Either way,

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Chariot190 said:

Can you like, actually elaborate as to why?
"put me in diasgree. I could've agreed, if not for JoJo fans"
Just makes it seem like you're disagreeing, not because it's wrong, but out of petty disdain for the fanbase or some shit, unless I'm to assume you're just shitposting, in which case take that to a non potentially controversial CRT.

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DRW001 said:

Hi all. As the title of this thread suggests, this CRT will show how Beyond from JORGE JOESTAR has qualitative superiority and R>F transcendence over the world of JoJo's itself. All of the links provided will show the full context of the respective scene, and as such may go on a bit longer than just the quoted lines here.

Beyond is the Literal Author of the world of JORGE JOESTAR and views all of it as a story​

—Tsukumojuku to Jorge (Chapter 1)

—Tsukumojuku to Joji (Chapter 2)

—Jorge believes in Beyond #1 (Chapter 13)

—Jorge believes in Beyond #2 (Chapter 15)

As you can see from the statements above, Beyond views the world of JORGE JOESTAR and JoJos as a whole as nothing but a story. Beyond is an author writing a mystery novel where Jorge and Joji are the protagonists, and where Tsukumojuku lost his status as a protagonist, eluding to Otaro Maijo's previous novel. This is clear indication of R>F transcendence and qualitative superiority. Tsukumojuku makes this most obvious with his comparison of himself being Sherlock Holmes and Beyond being Arthur Conan Doyle; the real life creator of the fictional character Sherlock Holmes.

Beyond is not a part of the world and transcends it​

It has been stated multiple times that Beyond is not within the world of JORGE JOESTAR, with it being said to be outside and not of the world. The JoJoveller guidebook goes into a little more detail and says that Beyond controls the protagonist from a reality that transcends the world itself.


—Tsukumojuku to Jorge (Chapter 1)

—Jorge remembering what Tsukumojuku told him (Chapter 13)

—JoJoveller Stands Page 317

The Reality-Fiction page on the wiki currently says:

For example, if a character were to view an entire space-time continuum as fiction, they would be superior to such an extent that it would be viewed not as a small portion or constituent of their reality, but as trivialized into nonexistence by comparison, such that their higher world is wholly irreducible to anything pertaining to the lower world. This complete superceding of the lower world's nature lands all such characters at 1-A.

The JoJo's cosmology more than fits that criteria as it contains infinite universes in which there are characters that have abilities such as dimensional walls that lead to these infinite universes, being able to move into the boundary between dimensions and move freely within that infinite space. JORGE JOESTAR itself has infinitely expanding, universal sized space-time constructs. 'The world' as described here in fact encompasses everything in JJ including universes, parallel worlds, history, etc. Beyond transcends all of this and, as confirmed previously, views all of it as fictitious and nothing more than a story, which Beyond is the author of. This subsequently places Beyond at a 1-A rating

Beyond is referred to as ‘All-Powerful’, ‘Omnipotent’ and God/The Trinity​

—Tsukumojuku describing the Trinity and his name (Chapter 7)

—Jorge trying to use Beyond to get Tsukumojuku to come (Chapter 13) (long read)

—Joji confirming that all 3 Beyonds were 1 as the Trinity (Chapter 16)

All 3 Gods in the Trinity that are described as all-powerful and omnipotent within Tsukumojuku’s name are in fact the 3 Beyonds that are by the side of Joji, Jorge and Dio. As later described by Tsukumojuku, God is the Trinity, and God can be split into three:

• Jorge is with Tsukumojuku in England (I am here)
• Joji is in the Arrow Cross House (I am in the Arrow Cross House)
• Dio is in the Coffin (I am trying to connect to a third me)

All of this occurs at once after Tsukumojuku’s death. (Keep in mind that Beyond uses Tsukumojuku as a literal plot device in order to get the ball rolling, so Tsukumojuku having all this information within his name is very intentional and literal) At the end of the novel, all 3 Beyonds are revealed to actually be one as the Trinity (God), confirming what was said above with the 3 all-powerful Gods, further highlighting Beyond's transcendent nature over the world of JoJo.

EDIT: Here are some scans showing Tsukumojuku's acting as Beyond's plot device (or instrument) despite being dead from the opening chapter


—Tsukumojuku admission of being a fictional device (Chapter 1)

—Tsukumojuku takes Joji to The H.G. Wells spacecraft (Chapter 8)

—Joji remembers what Tsukumojuku said (Chapter 10)

—Pucci's explanation (Chapter 10)

Other misc stuff/Trivia​

• Other instances in the novel also point towards the Trinity concept, such as the Beyond by Dio’s side being depicted as Jesus.
• The JORGE JOESTAR novel was first released on September 19th, 2012. In Japanese, September 19th can be written as 9-19, which is 九十九. The paperback version was then released on December 19th, 2017. In Japanese, 19 is written as 十九. Combine the two together and you get 九十九十九 or Tsukumojuku, the name of God as described in this novel. So yeah, it gets really meta.
• The number 19 above having major importance is no coincidence as it is also an important number in The Simons Case, a book within Ryūsui Seiryōin's JDC Series, where a number of characters from that book also feature in this novel.

TL;DR​

Beyond has very evident R>F transcendence and qualitative superiority over the JORGE JOESTAR world and JoJo's itself. Beyond views all of JoJo's as just a fictional story in which it is an author writing a mystery novel in the most literal of ways. Beyond exists outside and not of the world of JoJo's, with JoJoveller specifying that Beyond controls the protagonist from a reality that transcends the world of JoJo's. Beyond has also been described as 'All-Powerful' and 'Omnipotent' through the name of God and as The Trinity in addition to being depicted as Jesus; all further highlighting Beyond's transcendent nature.

(Do keep in mind though that since Beyond itself doesn't even have a profile currently (I am working on it though), the only characters that technically benefit from this right now are Joji and Novel Dio who get smurf hax via believing in Beyond)

Bold means Mod/Admin vote

Agree: Da3ggman, Chariot190 (retired mod), Spicy78, Duragoji123, Ultima_Reality

Disagree:

Neutral:

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