{GRACE} [8-1-1] (Rem vs Ram) Help me prove SatellaTheWoE wrong!

noninho · Sep 30, 2023

Rem has beaten (both) Homelander(s) and Random-Helper323 made a try to make Ram do that too, when SatellaTheWoE made this horrendous statement:

The better twin fra

and...this person's wrong, this sentence is clearly referring to Rem! I know that by not reading or watching pretty much anything except for 1 volume and both profiles i might regret being a part of this, but you know what? lemme try.

IMPORTANT AS F*CK DISCLAIMER: there is a rule against making threads just to offend or make jokes about another user and that is not what i'm doing here. All above was a joke explaining in a comedic way what inspired me to create this thread. If Random-Helper323 or SatellaTheWoE feel offended by the mentioning of their names above, reach me and i shall take it off putting another try of comedy or just a formal way.

anyway, let's get to da rules:

Both start in base. (meaning Rem starts with 1,12 tons (Rem's base form AP=this/2) and Ram with 2,24 via scaling to her sister)
Speed is = to avoid problems.
Ram obviously cannot get her optional equipment
Both of them are IC (but Rem will want to fight) so killing won't happen...Wincon's via "last one standing and wanting to fight wins" ig?
They start 400m (little more than 1s to reach the other) from each other, with line of sight to each other, on a Minecraft regular superflat no-building world

VOTES:

or blue-haired: 8 (noninho, Fezzih_007, Random-Helper323, Zabazab, Celestial_Pegasus, AThe1412, TauanVictor, Nierre)

or pink-haired: 1 (SatellaTheWoE)

Incon: 1 (Spilxson2)

Fezzih_007 · Sep 30, 2023

noninho · Sep 30, 2023

from what i've seen, Ram will beat her a little, ask Rem to use her Oni Form (which she'll do) and Ram will lose via Stamina issues.

Fezzih_007 · Sep 30, 2023

400 meters, man.

Well, Rem wins this very good if is just they sparing.

Zabazab · Sep 30, 2023

Q: Rem vs Ram, with both of them in peak condition, which one is stronger?

A: Rem. If you meant ‘with intact horns’, then Ram. - Q&A37 Rem & Ram

Re:Zero's internal powerscaling is fairly consistent, so in-verse matches tend to be quite decisive.

Also, both Ram and Rem scale to 27.66 tons.

noninho · Sep 30, 2023

Fezzih_007 said:
400 meters, man.

Well, Rem wins this very good if is just they sparing.

they're supersonic speed, mate, 400m doesn't really matter; Yeah, they're sparring, Rem won't just kill her outta nowhere.

Zabazab said:
Re:Zero's internal powerscaling is fairly consistent, so in-verse matches tend to be quite decisive.

Also, both Ram and Rem scale to 27.66 tons.

oh, i'm sorry, i was talking about that crater calc.
anyway, we use that interview you provided for voting Rem, right?

since that doesn't configure a stomp in any way and 2 reasonably knowledgeable R:Z members brought pro-her stuff, voting Rem FRA

Fezzih_007 · Sep 30, 2023

noninho said:
they're supersonic speed, mate, 400m doesn't really matter;

I was kinda vague sorry, but i meants that by that distance, Ram would have the advantage if they are to kill each other.

Anyway, Rem fra i guess.

SatellaTheWoE · Sep 30, 2023

Ram can still incapicitate her opponents rather easily and Rem is extremely likely to not hit her with full force which would lead to Ram deflecting all of her attacks and then flipping her over to the ground like she did to Emilia who is an actual experienced close combatant

Cope to rem fans fra (every mean thing i say after this point is a joke btw and as stated above this will end if anybody feels offended)

Random-Helper323 · Sep 30, 2023

I have to ask, is there really a large subset of the audience that hates Rem? She and Ram each have their qualities, and they're opposite seemingly by design, much like Dante and Vergil in Devil May Cry. Ram is constantly rude and insulting, and cold, but she also demonstrates a sort of "tough love" tendency, with how she makes the effort to teach Subaru how to read, and other things. Rem is superficially polite while secretly having deeply violent and even cruel tendencies, although even those are motivated almost entirely by her own self-hate. She also possesses a deep sense of loyalty to specific people, and that violence is generally expressed against those she fears will harm them. She's rather like a dog in that regard, actually.

Ram is generally more inclined towards acts of kindness, but Rem is more warm and sweet. Neither is a bad person, although Rem is certainly damaged and needs some kind of mentor. To be honest, Ram needs someone who is warm and doesn't let her insults sway them, and Rem needs someone who is strong enough to redirect her away from her mental health issues. Specifically, someone who is mature enough to move her past them. Her biggest problem is that she places someone on a pedestal and then obsesses over keeping them safe. It results in somewhat warped relationships rather than equal partnerships.

Random-Helper323 · Sep 30, 2023

Anyway, early in the story it was basically part of the plot that Rem was stronger than Ram. And Ram was so quick to exhaustion and so limited in her capacities that Subaru ended up basically carrying her after a point. So overall, I'd say Rem would be taking it.

I also reiterate, neither is exactly better. Both have their qualities and their flaws.

Zabazab · Sep 30, 2023

Yeah in character Rem takes this, because it'd be out of character for Ram to release her second shackle & one-shot.

noninho · Sep 30, 2023

Random-Helper323 said:
I have to ask, is there really a large subset of the audience that hates Rem? She and Ram each have their qualities, and they're opposite seemingly by design, much like Dante and Vergil in Devil May Cry. Ram is constantly rude and insulting, and cold, but she also demonstrates a sort of "tough love" tendency, with how she makes the effort to teach Subaru how to read, and other things. Rem is superficially polite while secretly having deeply violent and even cruel tendencies, although even those are motivated almost entirely by her own self-hate. She also possesses a deep sense of loyalty to specific people, and that violence is generally expressed against those she fears will harm them. She's rather like a dog in that regard, actually.

Ram is generally more inclined towards acts of kindness, but Rem is more warm and sweet. Neither is a bad person, although Rem is certainly damaged and needs some kind of mentor. To be honest, Ram needs someone who is warm and doesn't let her insults sway them, and Rem needs someone who is strong enough to redirect her away from her mental health issues. Specifically, someone who is mature enough to move her past them. Her biggest problem is that she places someone on a pedestal and then obsesses over keeping them safe. It results in somewhat warped relationships rather than equal partnerships.

to this day i do not know of any "movement" towards hating neither, though i'm not inside any R:Z-focused community (except the discussion thread here in VSBF). Both girls sound cool, i just like Rem more because of...opinion about Isekai Quartet and AFK Arena "DLC" (om*g to this day i can't believe i paid 80BRL to use her in my team, but anyway)

Random-Helper323 said:
So overall, I'd say Rem would be taking it.

Zabazab said:
Yeah in character Rem takes this

SatellaTheWoE said:
Cope to rem fans fra

i'll be counting those 3 as Rem votes

noninho · Sep 30, 2023

this thought just crossed my mind:
@Celestial_Pegasus you NEED to be here, mate.
every single big thing about R:Z has this guy involved, for sure he can add something here, even if it's just the vote

Random-Helper323 · Sep 30, 2023

noninho said:
this thought just crossed my mind:
@Celestial_Pegasus you NEED to be here, mate.
every single big thing about R:Z has this guy involved, for sure he can add something here, even if it's just the vote

That mentioning thing only works for staff. Obviously it's to stop trolls from filling the notification boxes of multiple people with truckloads of notifications all at once. So if you want Celestial Pegasus to come here you need to message him on his wall.

noninho · Sep 30, 2023

Random-Helper323 said:
That mentioning thing only works for staff. Obviously it's to stop trolls from filling the notification boxes of multiple people with truckloads of notifications all at once. So if you want Celestial Pegasus to come here you need to message him on his wall.

didn't know about it, ty mate

Celestial_Pegasus · Sep 30, 2023

Zabazab said:
Yeah in character Rem takes this, because it'd be out of character for Ram to release her second shackle & one-shot.

Pretty much my opinion, Ram's stamina issues hurts her pretty bad here, and she won't go for a 1 shot.

I would also note Rem has absurd stamina, Ram does too, but that's in terms of pain tolerance, not energy exertion.

When you go through what Rem does against Geuse, and 12 hours later is still alive, seems a tad more relevant here.

noninho · Oct 1, 2023

Celestial_Pegasus said:
Pretty much my opinion, Ram's stamina issues hurts her pretty bad here, and she won't go for a 1 shot.

I would also note Rem has absurd stamina, Ram does too, but that's in terms of pain tolerance, not energy exertion.

When you go through what Rem does against Geuse, and 12 hours later is still alive, seems a tad more relevant here.

should i count that as a voted for Rem?

Celestial_Pegasus · Oct 1, 2023

noninho · Oct 1, 2023

omfg we're a single vote away

SatellaTheWoE · Oct 1, 2023

noninho said:
to this day i do not know of any "movement" towards hating neither, though i'm not inside any R:Z-focused community (except the discussion thread here in VSBF). Both girls sound cool, i just like Rem more because of...opinion about Isekai Quartet and AFK Arena "DLC" (om*g to this day i can't believe i paid 80BRL to use her in my team, but anyway)

i'll be counting those 3 as Rem votes

i voted for Ram :C

noninho · Oct 1, 2023

SatellaTheWoE said:
i voted for Ram :C

oh sh*t, my bad

SatellaTheWoE · Oct 1, 2023

noninho said:
oh sh*t, my bad

no problem

SatellaTheWoE · Oct 1, 2023

Celestial_Pegasus said:
Pretty much my opinion, Ram's stamina issues hurts her pretty bad here, and she won't go for a 1 shot.

Can i ask why not? If this is a serious sparring match between them then Ram will absolutely try to win unless you want to argue she wont which would be applicable for Rem as well. Considering how skilled she is, I dont see how it would be a problem for her to deflect a couple of Rems attacks and simply flip her or incap her via some sick judo move like she did to Emilia who, mind you, has a higher close range combat skill than Rem alongside being physically stronger.
Reminder that even Subaru could deflect and parry a couple of Rems full powered attacks meant to kill him in one shot by her own statement

Celestial_Pegasus said:
I would also note Rem has absurd stamina, Ram does too, but that's in terms of pain tolerance, not energy exertion.

When you go through what Rem does against Geuse, and 12 hours later is still alive, seems a tad more relevant here.

That doesnt mean Ram wouldnt be able to take her out though

AThe1412 · Oct 1, 2023

I love Emillia.
Anyway, Rem FRA. Sorry Satella.

Fezzih_007 · Oct 1, 2023

SatellaTheWoE said:
Can i ask why not? If this is a serious sparring match between them then Ram will absolutely try to win unless you

Because If Ram use her 2 shacle, she would kill Rem.

SatellaTheWoE said:
Considering how skilled she is, I dont see how it would be a problem for her to deflect a couple of Rems attacks

The AP difference, Rem is a little stronger than Ram, and can use her horn to get even stronger.

Not sure why you assuming Rem would let Ram get closer to anyway, since using her flair, she gonna outrange her sister and don't ler her aphroach. She can also use her Ice to defend herself.

SatellaTheWoE said:
and simply flip her or incap her via some sick judo move

How the heck would this Inca her? She can just get up, lol.

SatellaTheWoE said:
like she did to Emilia who, mind you, has a higher close range combat skill than Rem alongside being physically stronger.

Don't even remember that

TauanVictor · Oct 1, 2023

Rem FRA

SatellaTheWoE · Oct 1, 2023

Fezzih_007 said:
Because If Ram use her 2 shacle, she would kill Rem.

she doesnt need to?

Fezzih_007 said:
The AP difference, Rem is a little stronger than Ram, and can use her horn to get even stronger.

she wont because that would be the same as Ram using her 2nd shackles

Fezzih_007 said:
Not sure why you assuming Rem would let Ram get closer to anyway, since using her flair, she gonna outrange her sister and don't ler her aphroach. She can also use her Ice to defend herself.

Subaru is an absolute amateur and could still parry her attacks despite them being strong enough to one shot him, Ram would easily be able to deflect them away

Fezzih_007 said:
How the heck would this Inca her? She can just get up, lol.

Ram has multiple ways of incapping her once she gets close

Fezzih_007 said:
Don't even remember that

She overwhelms Emilia in arc 6 when Subaru is stuck in the cage. Here is the scan
Emilia is physically superior to Rem while also being better in cqc so Ram should be able to take care of Rem fast

Zabazab · Oct 1, 2023

Ram temporarily overwhelming an unprepared Emilia with a surprise attack thanks to her skill isn't enough to say she could actually defeat Emilia with just one Shackle. Subaru deflecting base Rem's casual attack isn't much either, as while they were intended to kill they weren't serious either (similar to Elsa's state of mind before Reinhard showed up).

You haven't really shown anything Ram could do to incap Rem, you've just said she can. The only thing I can think of is choking Rem out, but Rem has the superior LS here.

And while it's out of character for Ram to release her 2nd Shackle (she only used her 1st Shackle for 10 years until Arc 4), it's in character for Rem to use her horn. I should also note that Rem's nose counters invisible attacks.

SatellaTheWoE · Oct 1, 2023

Zabazab said:
Ram temporarily overwhelming an unprepared Emilia with a surprise attack thanks to her skill isn't enough to say she could actually defeat Emilia with just one Shackle.

the pressure was already there and its explicitly stated that Emilia was ready for an attack from Ram and was planning on countering it. She wasnt caught off guard

Zabazab said:
Subaru deflecting base Rem's casual attack isn't much either, as while they were intended to kill they weren't serious either (similar to Elsa's state of mind before Reinhard showed up).

Rem isnt intending to kill Ram here either also Ram has actual combat experience coupled with being extremely skilled, she also already has damage transferal and damage reduction on her profile and could even scatter garfiels/ley's attacks which are way stronger and more complicated to reduce than Rems

Zabazab said:
You haven't really shown anything Ram could do to incap Rem, you've just said she can. The only thing I can think of is choking Rem out, but Rem has the superior LS here.

And while it's out of character for Ram to release her 2nd Shackle (she only used her 1st Shackle for 10 years until Arc 4), it's in character for Rem to use her horn. I should also note that Rem's nose counters invisible attacks.

Rem using her horn would put her in an uncontrolled state which she means she is unlikely to use it especially against her own sister in a sparring match
Also i would need source for Rem being able to detect invisible attacks

SatellaTheWoE · Oct 1, 2023

Also if this is post arc 6 Ram then shouldnt she have the ability to steal Rems mana from her horn? Thats a valid way for her to incap her as we have seen that Rem becomes unable to use her legs after that

Edit: Ram also has way more feats of being skilled and she should be faster than Rem via having better instinctive reaction along with her perception manipulation
and also this:
Analytical Prediction (Superior to Emilia who dodged a rain of arrows by reading the shooters intent [8]. With clairvoyance she can synthesize with her target's focus, eye movements, the part wherein strength is being poured, thus she can predict her target's attacks with greater ease than reading the mind [9]),
She also resists Rems AP and should have absolutely no difficulty in closing the distance and handling Rem like a child

Fezzih_007 · Oct 1, 2023

SatellaTheWoE said:
the pressure was already there and its explicitly stated that Emilia was ready for an attack from Ram and was planning on countering it. She wasnt caught off guard

What pressure?

And is stated she was getting ready to hold down Ram, but she din't expect Ram faster movements. So yeah, she did get caught off guard.

SatellaTheWoE said:
Rem isnt intending to kill Ram here either

Wtf you mean "either", Rem attacks are meant to kill Subaru, but she wans't actually serious while doing so.

SatellaTheWoE said:
Ram has actual combat experience

Só does Rem.

SatellaTheWoE said:
she also already has damage transferal

Which just work If she share her pain with Rem, which Rem can just say "no", and don't let the pain transfer to her.

SatellaTheWoE said:
and damage reduction

That's actually the only saving Grace for Ram, but is also kinda useless because Ram still have her stamina issue here, so Ram losiing before Rem is way more likely.

SatellaTheWoE said:
could even scatter garfiels/ley's attacks which are way stronger and more complicated to reduce than Rems

Why Garfiel attacks are more complicated to reduce?

And can you stop using Ley to compare her AP, in that fight she was getting her demage transferes to Subaru and Rem, she was pratically getting buffed while in there. That's not compare to her normal capacity.

SatellaTheWoE said:
Rem using her horn would put her in an uncontrolled state

That literally just occur If she stay in that form from a long períod of time.

SatellaTheWoE said:
which she means she is unlikely to use it

Not really, she still wants to Win this, she just don't want to kill Ram.

SatellaTheWoE said:
Also if this is post arc 6 Ram then shouldnt she have the ability to steal Rems mana from her horn?

Only If Rem let her.

SatellaTheWoE said:
Ram is so skilled lol

You keep ignoring the fact that Ram have horrible stamina, is way more likely she won't be able to acoomplished much before being defeated.

Nierre · Oct 1, 2023

rem fra

SatellaTheWoE · Oct 1, 2023

Fezzih_007 said:
What pressure?

the tension in the room, its pretty evident Ram was gonna attack at some point

Fezzih_007 said:
And is stated she was getting ready to hold down Ram, but she din't expect Ram faster movements. So yeah, she did get caught off guard.

Ok? Emilia is still is physically faster than Rem and Ram and should have had plenty of time to counteract

Fezzih_007 said:
Wtf you mean "either", Rem attacks are meant to kill Subaru, but she wans't actually serious while doing so.

i mean that she isnt going to be serious here either

Fezzih_007 said:
Só does Rem.

not against as skilled opponents as Ram. Heck she almost got done in by fodder witch cult members whereas Ram could hold off both Wilhelm and Ricardo momentarily without amping herself

Fezzih_007 said:
Which just work If she share her pain with Rem, which Rem can just say "no", and don't let the pain transfer to her.

and your proof for that? Ram didnt figure out she could control her synestia till she saw Cor Leonis and she is a genius. Rem on the other hand has no feat of being able to stop her from doing it

Fezzih_007 said:
That's actually the only saving Grace for Ram, but is also kinda useless because Ram still have her stamina issue here, so Ram losiing before Rem is way more likely.

so you gonna ignore the AP, Instinctive reaction, damage reduction, and perception manipulation advantage she has over her along with way way better combat skill?

Fezzih_007 said:
Why Garfiel attacks are more complicated to reduce?

because he is a more skilled fighter?

Fezzih_007 said:
And can you stop using Ley to compare her AP, in that fight she was getting her demage transferes to Subaru and Rem, she was pratically getting buffed while in there. That's not compare to her normal capacity.

her combat skill wasnt getting amped

Fezzih_007 said:
That literally just occur If she stay in that form from a long períod of time.

which is? I dont see Rem taking that sort of a chance, in fact she hasnt once puled that out unless she was in shear mortal danger or wanted to save somebody. She doesnt use it casually and even hesitated to do so against the wolfgram

Fezzih_007 said:
Not really, she still wants to Win this, she just don't want to kill Ram.

Also even if she does try Ram can easily deflect all of her attacks and simply bring the fight to a cqc which is a surefire way for her to win. Not to mention she can do so with exceeding ease and is literally too smart not to do that

Fezzih_007 said:
Only If Rem let her.

again she doesnt have feat of controlling the synethsia from her side

Fezzih_007 said:
You keep ignoring the fact that Ram have horrible stamina, is way more likely she won't be able to acoomplished much before being defeated.

before being defeated by what exactly?

SatellaTheWoE · Oct 1, 2023

Rem's only viable wincon is being able to outstamina Ram before she gets exhausted with her 10 min limit in which she has to make sure, Ram, doesnt deflect all of her attacks whille being slower, being outskilled to the point where Ram can literally see what her next moves will be before she herself realizes it, and that Ram doesnt close the distance instantly and make it a cqc which is a guranteed win for her

noninho · Oct 1, 2023

so far all votes counted, tomorrow 9:04AM (BRT) grace period ends

Fezzih_007 · Oct 1, 2023

Ok, do i need to respond, because some of the point are kinda bad.

Like

SatellaTheWoE said:
doesnt deflect all of her attacks whille being slower,

When speed is equal.

Zabazab · Oct 1, 2023

I like Ram more than Rem, but I'm not disagreeing with the author here ~~this time.~~

noninho · Oct 1, 2023

Fezzih_007 said:
Ok, do i need to respond, because some of the point are kinda bad.

Like

When speed is equal.

well, if so you wish to...

SatellaTheWoE · Oct 2, 2023

Fezzih_007 said:
Ok, do i need to respond, because some of the point are kinda bad.

Like

When speed is equal.

perception manipulation + better instinctive reaction + better AP + resistance to Rems AP give her a faster reaction speed than Rem

Also you arent really addressing the arguement

Fezzih_007 · Oct 2, 2023

SatellaTheWoE said:
Also you arent really addressing the arguement

Yeah, because i don't want.

SatellaTheWoE said:
perception manipulation + better instinctive reaction + better AP + resistance to Rems AP give her a faster reaction speed than Rem

Not really, because It would need to be in her speed section about her having higher reaction speed with all that. It does not.

Even then, you said she was faster than Rem, not that she have higher reaction speed.

{GRACE} [8-1-1] (Rem vs Ram) Help me prove SatellaTheWoE wrong!

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