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Zelda: Of Giant's and Light Arrows

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Dust_Collector

Dust_Collector

They/Them
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So the Giant's Mask, we give MM Link Class E lifting strength with said mask since it gives him the strength of a giant, and in Majora's Mask the only giants that exist in Termina are these guys, so naturally we gave something that grants the power of a giant, well, the power of a giant. However we for some reason only scaled his lifting strength to the giants and not his AP which is weird since their lifting strength ties directly into their AP (Stopping the moon from wiping out the planet and all that jazz), so Link should also get a High 6-A rating when he wears the mask, same also applies to this dude(s) since they can fight Giant Link and take hits from him (We already scale their lifting strength to Giant Link so just slap the same AP rating onto them as well). Simple, that's all there is to it, nothing else needs to be do- oh wait.

So if all we had was the N64 original that would be it, just making giant Link and Twinmold High 6-A scaling to a single giant and boom we're done, but Majora's Mask got a 3DS remake and the changes they made to the Twinmold boss fight gives us an issue. Originally you didn't need to use arrows in the N64 boss fight since you get the Giant's Mask before you fight them, but in the remake you gotta use shit like the elemental or the Light Arrows to kill one of them first before a chest appears giving you the Giant Mask to continue the fight. Elemental arrows harming them can be chalked up to them being actively weak to fire and ice, but the light arrow? Well they always do max damage, and Twinmold ain't specifically weak to it. So Light Arrows can harm Twinmold, Twinmold can take a beating from Giant Link, meaning by scaling the Light Arrows are High 6-A, big deal right? So instead of just Giant Link and Twinmold we just give MM Link another High 6-A rating via the Light Arrows that's not so bad.

Except for one teeny tiny problem, Majora's Mask shares many things with Ocarina of Time, including having the same Light Arrows, and Ganondorf's durability (In his Triforce of Power key) scales to the Light Arrows, he's durable enough to withstand being blasted by them during the final battle in OOT, you straight up can't beat him unless you blast his ass with several of them. This scales to the AP of anyone that can harm Ganon like OOT and TP Link at their endgames, scales to Ganons AP since he's every bit as powerful or more powerful than those Links and he can hurt himself with his own magic attacks.

Basically after all is said and done, anyone on par with ToP Ganon scales to 1/4th of Majora's High 6-A feat due to scaling chain with the Giant Mask and Twinmold. We currently list everyone that would scale already (Unless we're missing some?) as "likely High 6-A" under the possibility that the Triforce of Power made Ganondorf as strong as one of the Giants, but I guess now they just become flat High 6-A without the likely.
 
I'm fine with High 6-A essentially scaling to various characters.
 
Unpopular opinion, I've never really been sold about the Giant's Mask making Link as strong as one of the actual giants, mostly because he isn’t nearly as big and doesn't resemble one of them.

The flavor text does indeed say he gets the power of a giant, but I always connected it more Link's simple increase in size, rather than a proper reference to the Four Giants, as the connections stop to the word "giant" alone (which remains the same in japanese, kyojin for both the mask and the deities).

Also, iirc in the original N64 Link didn't get a stat boost, it only allowed him to better reach Twinmold, or at least so I read and I don't know how it works in the 3DS version.
Moreover, it's entirely possible to kill Twinmold without donning the Giant's Mask, and this causes further scaling issues.

I've also got an issue with the light arrows scaling. Twinmold can perfeclty be harmed by normal arrows, the elemental ones are just meant to exploit their weaknesses, while the Light arrows do more damage than normal ones. I'd say this is more a case of game mechanics, rather than lore.
Also iirc the Light Arrows don't oneshot every enemy in the game, even discarding bosses, so using their in-game damage as a basis for scaling isn't that practical.
 
SamanPatou said:
Twinmold can perfeclty be harmed by normal arrows, the elemental ones are just meant to exploit their weaknesses, while the Light arrows do more damage than normal ones. I'd say this is more a case of game mechanics, rather than lore.
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Well yeah, but so can Majora? You can kill him with just basic arrows too.
The light arrows, not so much, I don't think that's a fair complaint. You obtain them in the Stone Tower Temple itself, the temple Twinmold is a boss of and are used all throughout, and in 3D you must kill Twinmold 1 with arrows, it's fair to assume (because i dont wanna open up a pdf of a guide atm), that the intended way is via the light arrows or exploiting elemental weaknesses.
The elemental arrows exploit weaknesses, that is true, but light arrows do not, they're just cracked as ****, basically, I actually would agree with 100% you if not for Nintendo ruining things and forcing a normal kill via funny bow in 3D as in 64, it could just be handwaved as you kill it with Giant Mask in the same vain Link killed Majora via FD.

The Giant scaling thing is a different issue altogether tho.
 
Yeah I think the Light Arrow scaling is solid since the Twinmold and Ganon fights require the use of arrows to deal with them, but I agree that the giant scaling is a whole other issue, I can see the line of thought that went into the original scaling of the Giant Mask to one of the Giants but I'll admit, it's kinda shaky.

If nothing else Ganondorf tier peeps would have their low ends go from 6-C to High 6-C via scaling to Twinmold if we decide to downgrade the Giant Mask or something.
 
Tbh, I'm completely fine with the Giant Mask scaling, in a game that hyperfocuses and centers around 4 specific giants to give you a mask near the end with the "power of a giant", with no other mention or implication of any other form of giant in the game or even the verse (at the time of release).
It seems evident, at least to me, the intent is for the mask to be connected to the giants in some manner.

I'd even say assuming it's anything but the only giants we know of goes a tad against occam's razer.
I'm more worried about just scaling issues as a whole due to it, rather than the logic behind it, because this does lead to some fucky stuff even if the line of logic is sound imo.
 
I think it's overall a problem of how we handle Link's file altogether.

Him hurting the bosses also with standard weapons could rely on him just being very strong, instead of a high 6-C who carries High 6-A arrows and while also withstanding attacks from a High 6-A monster.

Imho, given that even the fight with Majora can be completed without the Fierce Deity Mask, I wouldn't say Link's magnitudes below it at that point.
I know that the Historia and the context of the game either say or suggest he did use the Giant and FD mask, I'd be more prone to consider them substantial boosts.

In my perspective, Link's keys could very well be High 6-C and 4-C, with the masks being labeled as "higher" or "much higher".

The battle with Twinmold does indeed suggest you should use special arrows, but you can also outright kill it with sword strikes alone, at least in the N64.

About the giant's mask referring those giants because they're the only ones in the game, I disagree. Giant here in used as an adjective, rather than a noun, and nothing implies the text does a direct reference to a specific giant, rather than the figurative concept of the giant Link becomes.
Fuethermore, technically all bosses are giants, in terms of size, and I firmly believe the mask's description refers to its size-increasing properties, rather than it borrowing the power of a giant deity.
 
SamanPatou said:
Giant here in used as an adjective, rather than a noun, and nothing implies the text does a direct reference to a specific giant, rather than the figurative concept of the giant Link becomes.
Fuethermore, technically all bosses are giants, in terms of size, and I firmly believe the mask's description refers to its size-increasing properties, rather than it borrowing the power of a giant deity.
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Not really? "The might of a giant", could very well be referring to "a" Giant; the species.
Not "a giant" aka big.

Though, if they wanted to get across the fact the "giant" in the text refers to being big and not the literally only concept of giant even remotely on that scope the game establishes, why would they not say "The power of being giant", rather than what it actually says? It simply doesn't make sense to assume it just means he's just big, and surely they knew that too and would've taken at least a partial step to stop misleading if that wasn't the intent. Because basically everyone ever immediately makes the connection to the 4 giants, not the concept of merely being large.

Plus, it says within the mask contains said power, and it's a transformation mask. Given how those works and it's not just a matter Link becoming big, but rather being granted the might "a giant", that's "contained within" the mask, we have to ask ourselves, is it really just becoming big, or is he being granted the power from a past entity like the other transformation masks?

Sorry but I can't agree with this line of thought, and the other bosses "being giant" isn't really an argument either imo.
 
SamanPatou said:
In my perspective, Link's keys could very well be High 6-C and 4-C, with the masks being labeled as "higher" or "much higher".
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MM Link can't be High 6-A, and especially not Tier 4.
And then it spirals out of control and even more people are Tier 4 than tier 6 now.
SamanPatou said:
Imho, given that even the fight with Majora can be completed without the Fierce Deity Mask, I wouldn't say Link's magnitudes below it at that point.
I know that the Historia and the context of the game either say or suggest he did use the Giant and FD mask, I'd be more prone to consider them substantial boosts.
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Just because it can, doesn't mean it's canon or an accurate representation in lore, you can bait Demise with a bug net too, but that doesn't mean it's accurate, you can fight these bosses alternate ways because it's fun and it's a video game, but lore be lore.
Link is magnitudes below it, demonstrably, don't forget Link dies if the moon drops and we see it happen at that, he's obviously not dying to a high 6-A feat only to immediately go and kill a Tier 4 who did that very feat that kills him while restrained.
 
I would've agreed to the giant mask being merely a size increase. However, the game went out of its way to claim Link had the strength of a giant. We have seen the giants in the game. And the big monsters were never called giants either. I wouldn't be surprised if those 4 giants in the OP are the only giants in the game. Even in the dictionary, the word giant is reserved for mystical entities with human-like appearances as the first definition. So saying the statement wasn't referring to what the game literally calls a giant just looks like an attempt to lowball.

I agree for Giant Link to flat out scale to High 6-A.

If Light Arrows are suggested by the game as what the player should use to kill the Twinmold then I agree with them getting an upgrade too. Claiming Link can kill Twinmold with merely sword strikes seem disingenuous. You can kill anything in a game by chipping away from its health. It's a different story if the games actually recommend weapons to use.
 
Arnoldstone18 said:
If Light Arrows are suggested by the game as what the player should use to kill the Twinmold then I agree with them getting an upgrade too. Claiming Link can kill Twinmold with merely sword strikes seem disingenuous. You can kill anything in a game by chipping away from its health. It's a different story if the games actually recommend weapons to use.
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To be exact, Saman isn't wrong on that one, if 64 was the only version of the game we'd just assume Giant Mask only, the issue is in the game's remake for 3DS, Nintendo ruined the fight by making it so you must kill Twinmold with base Link, and then the Twinmold you kill drops the Giant Mask which forces you into killing the second one via Giant (In the original, you get the mask before you fight Twinmold, not while fighting Twinmold).

They basically turned Twinmold into a "do whatever you want" fight with a mere "suggestion" to use Giant and other stuff, into railroading it to where Link canonically kills Twinmold 1 with arrows, and then the second into literally just beating the shit out of it, forcing us to have to scale the arrows along with it.
 
Ohhh okay

The arrows seem to be hitting Twinmold’s weak points. Does that mean anything? or is that just how the player prefers to play it?
 
The weakpoints the same tier as Giant Link, you hit them with it as well.
 
Dust_Collector said:
Majora's Mask shares many things with Ocarina of Time, including having the same Light Arrows,
Click to expand...
Are they the same? In OoT Link gets Light Arrows from Zelda, while in MM he gets it from the Stone Tower Temple. They share the same name but the source of the arrows are different.
Dust_Collector said:
If nothing else Ganondorf tier peeps would have their low ends go from 6-C to High 6-C via scaling to Twinmold if we decide to downgrade the Giant Mask or something.
Click to expand...
I mean, if accepted I think the Giant's scaling makes sense. Though I guess it can be debatably vague, but from my view the intention is that Link gains the power of a Giant and he only ever uses it in a giant desert that can safely accommodate his size.
 
SamanPatou said:
I know that the Historia and the context of the game either say or suggest he did use the Giant and FD mask, I'd be more prone to consider them substantial boosts.
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As a minor thing, the guide for MM does mention that in order for Link to stand a "Fighting Chance" he would need to use the Giant's mask. As with the FD mask I think the implication is that lore wise Link used the Giant Mask to fight Twinmold and the FD Mask to fight Majora, even if it is technically possible to defeat either boss with other stuff.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
Are they the same? In OoT Link gets Light Arrows from Zelda, while in MM he gets it from the Stone Tower Temple. They share the same name but the source of the arrows are different.
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I'd assume so tbh, they do the same damage between games, same effects, and even take the same magic cost.
Gotten from different places but are functionally identical, plus an argument could probably be made as how with everything in Termina, things have a parallel in Hyrule and vice versa, such as the people and in some cases the items (like the lens of truth existing in both worlds, being identical between worlds).
of course that's because 90% of the game is re-used assets, but they turned that into actual lore on how everything has a copy so that's on them
I could see a few of those being gameplay things but it has zero added effects or changes, while things like the ice ones behave a little bit differently, even if minor.

I can get a bit of caution on that point tho. I was a bit worried too.
 
Chariot190 said:
Gotten from different places but are functionally identical
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Just because they look similar doesn't mean they're identical. If Link gets them from an alternate universe that would automatically make them different items than the ones he got from Zelda.

I guess the bigger point is that Ganon wouldn't need to scale to any High 6-A rating, its just based on the idea that the arrows from Termina are the same as in Hyrule. Which doesn't work out when Hyrule and Termina are canonically different worlds/universes and all that.
Chariot190 said:
, things have a parallel in Hyrule and vice versa
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But most, if not all, of those parallels, are different. They look the same, but that's just it. Its a surface-level comparison, they're ultimately different from each other.

Well besides most enemies they're the same.
 
Ok but did you really just ignore everything else I typed to corroborate that?
Taking one thing I said out of context is bad form lad.
 
Chariot190 said:
Ok but did you really just ignore everything else I typed to corroborate that?
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I didn't mean to. I posted my response to early and edited in the rest of what I wanted to say.
Chariot190 said:
Taking one thing I said out of context is bad form lad.
Click to expand...
I didn't take what you said out of context. Or at least, I don't see how I could've when I directly quoted and link your comment making the context easily visible to anyone.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
But most, if not all, of those parallels, are different. They look the same, but that's just it. Its a surface-level comparison, they're ultimately different from each other.

Well besides most enemies they're the same.
Click to expand...
Not really, lens of truth is the lens of truth, potions are potions, hookshot is the hookshot, etc, even AP wise, they do the same damage to the enemies that exist in Termina that also existed in Hyrule.
Every item that exists in both games are quite literally not only visually, but functionally, identical. Would implicate the light arrows wouldn't be that different either if at all.

That really only applies to the people (minus a few, which are functionally the same even personality wise).
Qawsedf234 said:
I didn't take what you said out of context. Or at least, I don't see how I could've when I directly quoted and link you comment making the context easily visible to anyone.
Click to expand...
Well yeah but that was before you finished, it's all fine now tho.
 
Chariot190 said:
Not really, lens of truth is the lens of truth,
Click to expand...
It looks like it and acts like it, but its from a different world in an area with no (known) relation to the Sheikah. The history behind the item is different and that makes it different.
Chariot190 said:
very item that exists in both games are quite literally not only visually, but functionally, identical
Click to expand...
The bow is different in MM than in OoT and the models for a lot of those items are different. The hookshot from MM is vastly different visually than the hookshot from OoT. The Mirror Shield in MM is gotten and used differently than in OoT. They may have similar functions, but that doesn't mean the items are the same. You can't say that light arrows got from the Stone Tower Temple are the same as those gotten from Zelda. For all we know the arrows in that universe are much stronger than the arrows in Hyrule and nothing exists that would contradict that claim.
 
Wait, even if everything I said was true my scaling claim would be incorrect. The guide mentions that Link uses the light arrows on Gomess. He would more or less be required to downscale from the light arrows because otherwise it should one-shot everything.

Regarding the different versions though, are we saying that the 3DS version is now the main canon version? I know before we more or less vaguely used the N64 or GC port as the game standard.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
It looks like it and acts like it, but its from a different world in an area with no (known) relation to the Sheikah.
Click to expand...
Gossip Stones and such exist in Termina, we don't actually know if that's the case.
It's never been confirmed nor denied if the Sheikah exist, they might, they might not.
And well, that's all that matters? If it looks like it, and it acts like it, it's probably functionally the same? Backstory don't matter, just the actual function of the items being the same.
Qawsedf234 said:
The bow is different in MM than in OoT and the models for a lot of those items are different. The hookshot from MM is vastly different visually than the hookshot from OoT. The Mirror Shield in MM is gotten and used differently than in OoT.
Click to expand...
The bow is different yes, but Link as a Child in OOT never had a bow, that's a completely new item for Child Link.
And some of those model changes is due updated graphics and models with higher poly counts and stuff due to the expansion pack enabling such a thing 🗿

The MM shield is used the same in both games thou? What's different in that regard?
I'll grant you that one is straight-up different visually thou. But items can vary (especially those that flat out aren't in OOT), but it's also true that some items are undeniably identical in power, stats, function and even looks, with even the same damage output between games on same enemies between games indicating even power is the same.
The Light Arrow falls into the latter category, and as mentioned, it takes the same amount of magic as the ones in OOT do, ergo its power should be similar as well, otherwise it'd presumably take even more magic from a lorestandpoint.
Qawsedf234 said:
Wait, even if everything I said was true my scaling claim would be incorrect. The guide mentions that Link uses the light arrows on Gomess. He would more or less be required to downscale from the light arrows because otherwise it should one-shot everything.
Click to expand...
He do yeah, he can downscale too ig if we end up accepting it, not like Link can even harm him without attacking his weakpoint (Which he can only get to by blasting away the outer layers with LA's).
to be fair, the light arrows basically do one shot everything in the game
Regarding the different versions though, are we saying that the 3DS version is now the main canon version? I know before we more or less vaguely used the N64 or GC port as the game standard.
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Who knows, I'd say they're equally canon imo as odd as that may be. They're both the same game more or less, 3D just tweaks a few things and ruins a few bosses, added scripted sequences I'd say should be very much considered in 3D, as it's basically a canon tweak in how fights play out.
 
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Chariot190 said:
same damage output between games on same enemies between games indicating even power is the same.
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But damage output is a game mechanic. As an example in terms of damage, the FD Mask does as much damage as the Light Arrows, but we don't say the Light Arrows are Tier 4 because of that.
Chariot190 said:
And well, that's all that matters?
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Not really. If they're from different universes and are gotten from different sources you can't call them the same item.
Chariot190 said:
The MM shield is used the same in both games thou?
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Mirror Shield, not the Hylian Shield.
Chariot190 said:
Who knows, I'd say they're equally canon imo as odd as that may be
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If they're equally canon then the best choice would probably just make the rating a possible thing rather than a straight upgrade. Especially since modern Switch ports are still being based on the N64 version rather than something closer to the 3DS version.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
But damage output is a game mechanic. As an example in terms of damage, the FD Mask does as much damage as the Light Arrows, but we don't say the Light Arrows are Tier 4 because of that.
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Of course not, except, as mentioned, same damage even against the same pre-existing enemies.
Plus, it's not "just" the same damage, it's the "same damage as the same item", kind of a huge difference.

If I was saying "Item A and Item B do the same damage, so they must be equal", yeah that'd be a huge issue, but I'm saying "The same item that is functionally the same does the same damage as itself in the other incarnation", that's a bit different, you're oversimplifying my point. Also magic is still a crucial point, if both take the same amount of magic power to cast, from the same mana pool, they're probably the same. It isn't like the arrows in MM take double the mana to cast, I wouldn't even say this is a gameplay mechanic either, magic is part of the lore and the game tends to do a barely acceptable job in terms of that.
Qawsedf234 said:
Not really. If they're from different universes and are gotten from different sources you can't call them the same item.
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They are literally the same item tho 🗿
Let's not get semantic, this is like arguing two physically identical Batman, aren't both Batman because they're technically not the literal same despite sharing and having every single same attribute.

You know what I mean.
Qawsedf234 said:
Mirror Shield, not the Hylian Shield.
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Yeah I know, the mirror shield in OOT does the same stuff though iirc?
It is used to deflect sunlight, it is used to deflect enemy attacks and magic, etc. What's different about them in how they're used?
Qawsedf234 said:
If they're equally canon then the best choice would probably just make the rating a possible thing rather than a straight upgrade. Especially since modern Switch ports are still being based on the N64 version rather than something closer to the 3DS version.
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Well yeah, because it's a 64 port and a part of the 64 Virtual Console, not a 3DS port, the Switch don't even got a 3DS library (unfortunately, Kid Icarus with functional controls would be based af).
It's not like they're going to stop releasing 64 games for a quick buck, doesn't mean 3D isn't the most recent iteration of the game.
 
Chariot190 said:
that's a bit different, you're oversimplifying my point.
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You're using game mechanics as a reason to justify a point when the item canonically comes from a different world and a different source. It's not an oversimplification when you're actively using it as a justification.

Chariot190 said:
They are literally the same item tho 🗿
Let's not get semantic, this is like arguing two physically identical Batman, aren't both Batman because they're technically not the literal same despite sharing and having every single same attribute.
Click to expand...
Batman is the worst possible example you could use, because if we have a Baan from a different universe we would never scale him to the main universe Batman unless they directly interacted. Both Arkhamverse and Gotham Knights Batman are a version of Batman, but that doesn't make them comparable to Prime Earth Batman.

Chariot190 said:
What's different about them in how they're used?
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The MM one features direct counters against undead that the OoT one never showcased. As with other items the shields also look differently and come from different universes.

Chariot190 said:
Also magic is still a crucial point, if both take the same amount of magic power to cast
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Magic for MM Link was given to him by a different Great Fairy. The system of magic can exist, but it's magic granted by a different being and used in a separate universe.

Like I said scaling to High 6-A as some possibly rating is fine with me, but to say items from a alien reality and that come from a different source are equal to the main universe version just doesn't work for me. Especially when the proposed scaling is multiple tiers higher.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
You're using game mechanics as a reason to justify a point when the item canonically comes from a different world and a different source. It's not an oversimplification when you're actively using it as a justification.
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No Qawsed, I'm not, in case you missed half of what I'm said, it's a point, but it's a point in conjunction with several points, by themselves, sure, they're flimsy, together? All at once? At that point isn't "just" game mechanics, acting as if that's the case is just blatant ignorance or strawmanning.

1. Looks the same.
2. Acts the same.
3. Does the same damage (In relation to itself, not a different item altogether, as in light arrow damage = light arrow damage)
4. Has the same effects (like the stuns and what not).
5. Called and treated as the same item.
6. Takes the same amount of magical power to cast (implicating it is, indeed, the same spell).
7. obviously intended to just be the same item and us nerds on the internet arguing it's not meant to be is kinda ridiculous

Obviously, each one alone means nothing (except the magic thing), but together? Well you know what they say, if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and moves like a duck...
Qawsedf234 said:
Batman is the worst possible example you could use, because if we have a Baan from a different universe we would never scale him to the main universe Batman unless they directly interacted. Both Arkhamverse and Gotham Knights Batman are a version of Batman, but that doesn't make them comparable to Prime Earth Batman.
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And yet Batkek and 52 Batman are physically identical on every level including a genetic one, despite being two different Batmen.
You know what I meant, my point still stands, you didn't even argue the point you just went "well actually THESE batman are different", yes sure, but they have reason to be different.
And in this case, we have evidence the two light arrows are the same, that being Link as the connecting line, both take the same amount of magic to cast and then everything else just piles atop that.
Qawsedf234 said:
The MM one features direct counters against undead that the OoT one never showcased. As with other items the shields also look differently and come from different universes.
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I hope you're not talking about light being deflected onto undead enemies and killing them, that isn't an aspect of the shield, it's literally just because sunlight hits them, so they die, because that's an intrinsic weakness of the undead enemy.
Yes, obviously, they're from different universes, if that was a reason I'd be willing to buy at face value we wouldn't be having this conversation, clearly I think the **** ton of overlap and identical performance in every possible aspect overrides the fact they're different and when coupled with evidence of other such items, even if not all, being identical despite being parallel counterparts. Obviously, I don't think alt universe is reason enough to toss it.
Qawsedf234 said:
Magic for MM Link was given to him by a different Great Fairy. The system of magic can exist, but it's magic granted by a different being and used in a separate universe.
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The magic wasn't given to him by a Great Fairy like the way I'm sure you're arguing, the Great Fairy just granted the ability him to use magic, like, in general, kinda like how the Great Fairy in OOT enabled him to use his magic. There's nothing different about that scenario, in fact, it's identical, you unironically just convinced me further it's legit. Fact of the matter is, it's Link's magic being used and pooled, not a separate entity's magic he's leeching off to cast magic. If he was using someone else's manapool, this argument would be legit, but it's still ultimately Link's magic, and even if it was a Great Fairy's magic, the argument wouldn't change because the Great Fairy gave him magic in OOT in the same vain, so the arrows would STILL be drawing from effectively the same manapool between games.
especially when you take into account the cut training cutscenes which just show the great fairy making Link train for his buffs.

Uh, it being used in a different universe doesn't matter in regards to magic or Link?
It's the exact same Link, with the exact same magic. It's not like the fundamental rules of reality and everything we know about magic just stops working like it should in Termina. That's an actual nonargument, magic used in Hyrule and magic used in Termina and magic used in Lorule and magic used in the ocean world and magic used in the dark and so on, are all just magic, there's nothing different about them. And if your argument is the Great Fairy is different, why would it be? A Great Fairy is a whole species, they're all kinda equally powerful bar the Great Fairy Queen, the MM ones don't have reason to be over 1000x the power of the OOT ones, in the same way Gorons, Deku's, Zoras, and random enemies are the same between worlds.

Like idk dude, if the only argument is "it's a different world", despite basically everything pointing to them just being the same, I can't say I agree with your verdict, gonna need a bit more evidence saying they're fundamentally different and thus the two light arrows shouldn't scale at all.
Tbh I wish you would give a more foolproof argument because I actually dont like this upgrade, it makes the scaling kinda fucky, if a legit debunk to arrow scaling could be provided that can't be rebutted that'd be nice
 
I for one can't wait to use Sage scaling to make Morpha equal to all 4 giants combined if every Light Arrow is listed as the same thing
 
this is why i said we should ditch encyclopedia
it does nothing but ruin things
yes im talking about majora
 
Chariot190 said:
Well you know what they say, if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and moves like a duck...
Click to expand...
But the duck is from a parallel universe we wouldn't call it a normal Earth duck.

Chariot190 said:
You know what I meant
Click to expand...
I don't because your point was bad.
Chariot190 said:
think the **** ton of overlap and identical performance in every possible aspect overrides the fact they're different and when coupled with evidence of other such items, even if not all, being identical despite being parallel counterparts. Obviously, I don't think alt universe is reason enough to toss it.
Click to expand...
I do, because they're from different universes and one would suggest an extremely higher degree of scaling.

Chariot190 said:
Tbh I wish you would give a more foolproof argument
Click to expand...
I already said even if everything I claimed about the arrows was correct, my point about scaling would still be wrong. Link uses the arrows on multiple enemies canonically. Since they aren't one shot and Link has to fight them, Link would be required to scale in some fashion. It's just that since one version of the game forces you to use them and the other version doesn't, we should only include it as a secondary rating.

Unless we're changing the default version in which case everyone in the OP would just scale to High 6-A or we remove the scaling due to inconsistency. But the latter seems more of a cop out move to me.
 
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