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General DC Comics Discussion Thread

Given how popular of characters Wally and Barry are, it is surprising that the speed section on their profiles for both Post-Crisis and Rebirth kind of suck. They have so many speed feats and yet practically none are given. There should be a wall of text with feats ranging from running through time, between universes, between dimensions, and when time is stopped as well as many other such examples of immeasurable speed.
 
Quickmia said:
Im not saying Superman is FASTER but he's certainly not losing out to Wally.
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I mean it kinda depend on story to story. Here even on superman turf that is space itself where Superman has little to no friction he still has no shot of landing a single hit on wally who is just a mindless beast right now. You can argue superman was holding back or if sun dipped he can match him but still this is mindless wally in superman turf.

His power was describe to kill every living human within the time it take to sneeze and he can go through gods like butter. Even in his current state he don't do that because he is too nice.

They use extra dimensional god tech to land a hit on wally in space that was fighting superman and he still dodge it by moving out of story. His limits do not exist same as superman.
 
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PRIDEXEGO said:
I mean it kinda depend on story to story. Here even on superman turf that is space itself where Superman has little to no friction he still has no shot of landing a single hit on wally who is just a mindless beast right now. You can argue superman was holding back or if sun dipped he can match him but still this is mindless wally in superman turf.

His power was describe to kill every living human within the time it take to sneeze and he can go through gods like butter.

They use extra dimensional god tech to land a hit on wally in space that was fighting superman and he still dodge it by moving out of story. His limits do not exist same as superman from that one story.
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Is there any context for those scans? Wally doesn't seem to be very... Wally-ish (aside from the mindless beast part). Even then, Clark is just too durable for Wally to put him down + passive plot hax and Clark can just turn him into mist with a single punch. And again, Wally at his FASTEST. Again, direct quote from Wally at his FASTEST.

"On my earth, I wouldn't even try something as suicidal as taking down Superman."

All those statements about Wally going through Gods like butter can be applied to a not holding back Superman as well. Superman is explicitely = to Darkseid at his peak (without amps such as Spectre, etc.) as per the DC All In Special.
 
Quickmia said:
Is there any context for those scans? Wally doesn't seem to be very... Wally-ish (aside from the mindless beast part). Even then, Clark is just too durable for Wally to put him down + passive plot hax and Clark can just turn him into mist with a single punch. And again, Wally at his FASTEST. Again, direct quote from Wally at his FASTEST.

"On my earth, I wouldn't even try something as suicidal as taking down Superman."

All those statements about Wally going through Gods like butter can be applied to a not holding back Superman as well. Superman is explicitely = to Darkseid at his peak (without amps such as Spectre, etc.) as per the DC All In Special.
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Eclipso fuel Wally with all his hate and rage. Wally is just being nice here and ofcourse those punches wont hurt superman here Wally is in space its superman turf if wally was on his sense those would infinite mass punches on him and he simply wouldnt try to fight superman in space at all.

Second if superman has no chance of landing hit Wally in space who is not in his senses why would you think in fair battle he would?

Lastly Superman has no answer to Wally moving out of the story and rectonning him hurting him in some way or dumping him in speedforce(sure he may get out after sometime but it wont be a pleasing time) or stealing all kinetic energy off him and make him a statue.

Even way back in post criss era Wally in his fight agains Hunter zolomon operate on hypertime where he is invisible to even superman. I will find a scan if saw it here.
 
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PRIDEXEGO said:
Eclipso fuel Wally with all his hate and rage. Wally is just being nice here and ofcourse those punches wont hurt superman here Wally is in space its superman turf if wally was on his sense those would infinite mass punches on him and he simply wouldnt try to fight superman in space at all..
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So a massively amped Wally?

PRIDEXEGO said:
Second if superman has no chance of landing hit Wally in space who is not in his senses why would you think in fair battle he would?
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Clark was very explicitly holding back there and wasn't even there TO fight. Idk who's saying that statement but I highly doubt they've actually seen Superman NOT holding back or going 100% because he VERY rarely does it and only does so against characters like Darkseid when he's
PRIDEXEGO said:
Lastly Superman has no answer to Wally moving out of the story and rectonning him hurting him in some way or dumping him in speedforce(sure he may get out after sometime but it wont be a pleasing time) or stealing all kinetic energy off him and make him a statue.

Even way back in post criss era Wally in his fight agains Hunter zolomon operate on hypertime where he is invisible to even superman. I will find a scan if saw it here.
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There's an entire event and a B plot in a crisis event dedicated to the fact you can't retcon Superman. Doomsday Clock and Superman: Beyond. Clark has showings of being resistant to energy absorption. Superman literally punched out of Hypertime.
 
Quickmia said:
So a massively amped Wally?



Clark was very explicitly holding back there and wasn't even there TO fight. Idk who's saying that statement but I highly doubt they've actually seen Superman NOT holding back or going 100% because he VERY rarely does it and only does so against characters like Darkseid when he's


There's an entire event and a B plot in a crisis event dedicated to the fact you can't retcon Superman. Doomsday Clock and Superman: Beyond. Clark has showings of being resistant to energy absorption. Superman literally punched out of Hypertime.
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No he was not amped he was imbued with all the hate and rage to kill all beings on earth by eclipso saddist nature as he is throwing tantrum because of his loss against the Darksied somehow.
 
A few years back someone guy made a blog offsite where they read through literally ever Superman comic and documented the feats. Does anyone remember where to find this or have a link? I hope it wasn’t deleted that would be a shame.
 
Quickmia said:
So a massively amped Wally?



Clark was very explicitly holding back there and wasn't even there TO fight. Idk who's saying that statement but I highly doubt they've actually seen Superman NOT holding back or going 100% because he VERY rarely does it and only does so against characters like Darkseid when he's


There's an entire event and a B plot in a crisis event dedicated to the fact you can't retcon Superman. Doomsday Clock and Superman: Beyond. Clark has showings of being resistant to energy absorption. Superman literally punched out of Hypertime.
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He is also not immune to all type energy absorbption. And Wally not only steal speed but entire motion itself the kinetic energy. One time Hal even beat/restrained post crisis superman through energy absorbtion.
Though not sure about current one but he should still be effect by speed steal and kinetic energy.(Talking about regular superman not KO superman or sun dipped)
 
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Is it really necessary to keep arguing about Superman? While Wally, Barry, and other speedster do not typically use the full extent of their capabilities, the reality is when they do, they are immeasurably more powerful than Superman as they are powered by The Speed Force.

Superman is not going to be upgraded simply for fighting Wally West. Many character deeply respect Superman and put him on a pedestal besides. There have been countless statements made by more powerful heroes stating that they wouldn’t want to fight Superman, that they don’t think they could beat Superman, or that they think Superman’s capabilities are greater than their own. This does not actually mean that Superman is superior to these characters.

At this point, at least for Post-Crisis continuity, all of Superman’s attack potency feats have been milked dry and there is nothing left to find to tier him that much higher than he currently is. If anyone actually is serious about upgrading Superman in any capacity, they should be looking into his speed feats as he likely has some undocumented immeasurable speed feats in Post-Crisis continuity and beyond. That is why I was asking if anyone knew where that all encompassing Superman feats blog is as I am sure it is a treasure trove of Superman speed feats.
 
PromptedElephant641 said:
Is it really necessary to keep arguing about Superman? While Wally, Barry, and other speedster do not typically use the full extent of their capabilities, the reality is when they do, they are immeasurably more powerful than Superman as they are powered by The Speed Force.
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They literally would be incapable of killing him, regardless of the extent to which they used their abilities to. Clark is comparable to Prime who required the entire Speed Force to get imprisoned.
 
Quickmia said:
They literally would be incapable of killing him, regardless of the extent to which they used their abilities to. Clark is comparable to Prime who required the entire Speed Force to get imprisoned.
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Maybe if he is sun dipped in white star and throw recton punch like prime otherwise he is nowhere close to prime. Superman was insignificant in the fight against Darkest Knight.
 
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Saying that Superman scales to Superboy Prime is not a good way to build credibility. Superboy Prime is a unique character with unique mechanisms. Regular old Superman simply isn’t on his level.

Debating Superman being 1A or above is a waste of time. It is not consistent and is entirely unreasonable. We all know it is never gong to happen on this website. Bringing it up over and over again is not going to change anything.
 
PromptedElephant641 said:
Saying that Superman scales to Superboy Prime is not a good way to build credibility. Superboy Prime is a unique character with unique mechanisms. Regular old Superman simply isn’t on his level.

Debating Superman being 1A or above is a waste of time. It is not consistent and is entirely unreasonable. We all know it is never gong to happen on this website. Bringing it up over and over again is not going to change anything.
Click to expand...

No one's saying anything about Superman being 1-A
 
PromptedElephant641 said:
Saying that Superman scales to Superboy Prime is not a good way to build credibility. Superboy Prime is a unique character with unique mechanisms. Regular old Superman simply isn’t on his level.

Debating Superman being 1A or above is a waste of time. It is not consistent and is entirely unreasonable. We all know it is never gong to happen on this website. Bringing it up over and over again is not going to change anything.
Click to expand...
(he is but thats a discussion for a different site, remember post crisis supes was star level on here a few years back LOL) superman was seen as the only hope against king omega darkseid by the time trapper while prime was right next to him, implying that prime wasnt on that level.
 
Rozeyroze said:
(he is but thats a discussion for a different site, remember post crisis supes was star level on here a few years back LOL) superman was seen as the only hope against king omega darkseid by the time trapper while prime was right next to him, implying that prime wasnt on that level.
Click to expand...
That’s not nearly enough evidence to scale Superman to Superboy Prime nor to scale Superman to King Omega Darkseid. Plus Superman used the power from The Heart of Apokolips which turned him into King Omega Superman to fight King Omega Darkseid. Additionally, Superboy Prime, while in his enraged state, could content with The Darkest Knight who is above Sixth Dimensional beings. The Heart of Apokolips which gives King Omega Darkseid and King Omega Superman their power is merely Fourth Dimensional.
Quickmia said:
No one's saying anything about Superman being 1-A
Click to expand...
Quickmia said:
They literally would be incapable of killing him, regardless of the extent to which they used their abilities to. Clark is comparable to Prime who required the entire Speed Force to get imprisoned.
Click to expand...
By implying that Wally could not defeat Superman even with The Speed Force, which is 1A, you are stating that Superman is 1A.

As stated, anyone who is attempting to upgrade Superman in anyway should be focusing on upgrading his speed as pretty much every high tier feat of his from 1938 to the present has been accounted for at this point so there is not much of a possibility for him to be tiered that much higher. Pre-Crisis Superman has dozens of immeasurable speed feats, there must be at least be a handful of immeasurable feats that can be found for Post-Crisis Superman or Rebirth that can be used to change his speed from MFTL+ to Varies, usually MFTL+ up to Immeasurable.
 
Rozeyroze said:
(he is but thats a discussion for a different site, remember post crisis supes was star level on here a few years back LOL) superman was seen as the only hope against king omega darkseid by the time trapper while prime was right next to him, implying that prime wasnt on that level.
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Prime was the important part of Time trapper plan same as superman. He just wanted regular superman to become king omega to fight Darksied as Prime wasn't cut for that and he would never steal superman story.

There is not much resistence Superman can give to prime if he really turn on him.

Prime help a lot in this issue. They just have different part to play.

We can argue all we want who is stronger KO Superman or Darkest Knight but that is not a regular Superman
 
PRIDEXEGO said:
Prime was the important part of Time trapper plan same as superman. He just wanted regular superman to become king omega to fight Darksied as Prime wasn't cut for that and he would never steal superman story.

There is not much resistence Superman can give to prime if he really turn on him.

Prime help a lot in this issue. They just have different part to play.

We can argue all we want who is stronger KO Superman or Darkest Knight but that is not a regular Superman
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Sure, in terms of dealing with darkseids legion (who gave wally, bart and time trapper a hard time btw) not directly fighting darkseid, hell doomsday said him, lois and prime should run to the far future and hide because superman failed, meaning prime couldnt fight KO darkseid.
 
PromptedElephant641 said:
That’s not nearly enough evidence to scale Superman to Superboy Prime nor to scale Superman to King Omega Darkseid. Plus Superman used the power from The Heart of Apokolips which turned him into King Omega Superman to fight King Omega Darkseid. Additionally, Superboy Prime, while in his enraged state, could content with The Darkest Knight who is above Sixth Dimensional beings. The Heart of Apokolips which gives King Omega Darkseid and King Omega Superman their power is merely Fourth Dimensional.
Click to expand...

We both know that's a terrible argument for trying to cap omega darkseid and superman at 4D, prime and superman get energy from the sun, they are leagues above star level, come on now.


[King omega Darkseid scaling](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1q2vQOl3C_G8AgJ7wPgeVJs9yAaI46ESD5dsYFzM5jyo/edit?usp=drivesdk)

KO Darkseid is a monster, he one tapped the world forger (a 6th dimensional being)

"But he was in a lower realm of existence so he was weakened" so was darkseid, new gods get the same nerf when they come down from their plane

Darkseid had two nerfs by being in a weakened booster gold body yet still low diffed the world forger
 
PromptedElephant641 said:
As stated, anyone who is attempting to upgrade Superman in anyway should be focusing on upgrading his speed as pretty much every high tier feat of his from 1938 to the present has been accounted for at this point so there is not much of a possibility for him to be tiered that much higher. Pre-Crisis Superman has dozens of immeasurable speed feats, there must be at least be a handful of immeasurable feats that can be found for Post-Crisis Superman or Rebirth that can be used to change his speed from MFTL+ to Varies, usually MFTL+ up to Immeasurable.
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The best superman speed feat I can find is from action comic #1050 amped by white sun.
Rozeyroze said:
Sure, in terms of dealing with darkseids legion (who gave wally, bart and time trapper a hard time btw) not directly fighting darkseid, hell doomsday said him, lois and prime should run to the far future and hide because superman failed, meaning prime couldnt fight KO darkseid.
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Prime never saw Darksied face to face he dunk on the darksied that imposing as Booster gold. What hard time?
Doomsday is not all knowing some of the things prime does don't make sense to him.
He was given a hope to make last stand as prime finish his mission for which he was recruited.

The only time Prime has a down face when he saw Lara and that was due to shock in entire DC KO event. He didnt think much of it, this crisis only matter to superman future by saying statment like "Save your future" like it doesnt effect him.
 
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We debating 1-A Supes now? To be honest I don't trust myself to give an unbiased complete scale nowadays but if you're gonna propose a 1-A rating it better be like a conditional thing because Superman is just objectively not usually 1-A.
 
im nobody and i dont have a dog in this, but imo superman should not be 1A, although superboy prime definitely should be; that note at the bottom of his page about not scaling to the darkest knight is pure cap, or atleast outdated considering he has more arguments for 1A now than just that. something like “varies, usually low 1-C up to 1A, far higher with rage power or whatever tf”
 
AyOgUyS said:
We debating 1-A Supes now? To be honest I don't trust myself to give an unbiased complete scale nowadays but if you're gonna propose a 1-A rating it better be like a conditional thing because Superman is just objectively not usually 1-A.
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It’s not actually being debated as there is no logical debate to be had on the matter, nor would such a revision actually be accepted. It is just the regular daily dose of wanking Superman to the extreme 😂.
Osemere said:
@PromptedElephant641
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I am currently doing a read through of Flash Content in order to fix the inaccurate description of The Speed Force on the cosmology page and on the Flashes’ profiles. I am 2 volumes away from Flash Vol6 so expect to hear back from me on the matter next weekend or so (maybe earlier, it depends on how many irrelevant issues that don’t provide anything of worth stand between where I am now in the reading and the next two volumes)
 
E1iminxtion said:
although superboy prime definitely should be; that note at the bottom of his page about not scaling to the darkest knight is pure cap, or atleast outdated considering he has more arguments for 1A now than just that.
Click to expand...
I think some peeps here are planning to upgrade SBP to High 1-A.
 
AyOgUyS said:
We debating 1-A Supes now? To be honest I don't trust myself to give an unbiased complete scale nowadays but if you're gonna propose a 1-A rating it better be like a conditional thing because Superman is just objectively not usually 1-A.
Click to expand...
He only reach immeasruable meta or outerversal scaling when he is dipped in white sun or extended period in yellow sun.
 
AyOgUyS said:
I think some peeps here are planning to upgrade SBP to High 1-A.
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That would be me. I already made the profile for him a month and a half ago; however, I am working my way up the cosmology in what needs to be fixed starting at the bottom so it will be a long time before I get to the actual revision for him
 
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